Need commiserating: 2nd time applying to counseling phd yet no acceptance

[xyzpsych]

I was wondering if anyone else here had their second round applying for either counseling or clinical psychology and got no acceptance to the 2013-2014 cohort? If you do, feel free to leave a comment here to share your stories and learnings.

I'm currently in a university-based MA program in counseling and I'll graduate this May. I applied for 8 programs for last fall(2012), all counseling psychology, but not even one interview. Well, looking back, I didn't quite know what I was doing, e.g. what I needed to apply, how to select programs. After all, I wasn't able to finish thesis by last August so I wouldn't be able to start even if I got in.

I think I did well with my applications this year as I had 3.5 interviews out of 7 applications-- .5 being a telephone interview that didn't lead to anywhere further--with one of them being a professional school which I was not quite sure about in the first place. I was rejected by one of the university-based programs that offered me interview late February and then I was waitlisted early March in another program, which sent me official rejection this on 4/8.

I thought about if getting a phd is right for me and I feel that's how I see myself--I'm not primarily interested in working in academia but more as a scientist in the applied front of psychology. My interest is in using research to solve existing problems.

And I refused to lie to get in. Now I wonder if it will ever work.

The only lesson I've learned at this point is that I probably put in too few applications. If I apply again, I'll probably aim for 12+. I feel maybe I should apply to some clinical psych programs as counseling psych is usually not very big on problem-solving kind of research. Any thoughts?

I feel I'm having this burn out that I probably will not apply until two years later. If you are in a similar situation, will you appy again? Why/why not? Sometimes I'm not sure because it's true that I can make my ends met with the MA degree and probably have a good career in the long-run. What'd you think?

I'm still in contact with the POI at the program where I got waitlisted. I'm asking him for feedbacks and will update.

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[bcliff]

I was wondering if anyone else here had their second round applying for either counseling or clinical psychology and got no acceptance to the 2013-2014 cohort? If you do, feel free to leave a comment here to share your stories and learnings.

I'm currently in a university-based MA program in counseling and I'll graduate this May. I applied for 8 programs for last fall(2012), all counseling psychology, but not even one interview. Well, looking back, I didn't quite know what I was doing, e.g. what I needed to apply, how to select programs. After all, I wasn't able to finish thesis by last August so I wouldn't be able to start even if I got in.

I think I did well with my applications this year as I had 3.5 interviews out of 7 applications-- .5 being a telephone interview that didn't lead to anywhere further--with one of them being a professional school which I was not quite sure about in the first place. I was rejected by one of the university-based programs that offered me interview late February and then I was waitlisted early March in another program, which sent me official rejection this on 4/8.

I thought about if getting a phd is right for me and I feel that's how I see myself--I'm not primarily interested in working in academia but more as a scientist in the applied front of psychology. My interest is in using research to solve existing problems.

And I refused to lie to get in. Now I wonder if it will ever work.

The only lesson I've learned at this point is that I probably put in too few applications. If I apply again, I'll probably aim for 12+. I feel maybe I should apply to some clinical psych programs as counseling psych is usually not very big on problem-solving kind of research. Any thoughts?

I feel I'm having this burn out that I probably will not apply until two years later. If you are in a similar situation, will you appy again? Why/why not? Sometimes I'm not sure because it's true that I can make my ends met with the MA degree and probably have a good career in the long-run. What'd you think?

I'm still in contact with the POI at the program where I got waitlisted. I'm asking him for feedbacks and will update.

How many pubs/presentations do you have? Can you get licensed after you graduate from your current program?

I think if you're serious about a PhD, then you need to throw yourself into research (which it looks like you're attempting by working towards a research-oriented master's degree). My suggestions for you would be to narrow down your focus, develop an interesting take on whatever issues you're hoping to study, try and work on research that will allow you to gain experience in that specific field, and then apply to programs with POI's that share your interests.

Sorry for sounding so cliché!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I thought about if getting a phd is right for me and I feel that's how I see myself--I'm not primarily interested in working in academia but more as a scientist in the applied front of psychology. My interest is in using research to solve existing problems.

And I refused to lie to get in. Now I wonder if it will ever work.

The only lesson I've learned at this point is that I probably put in too few applications. If I apply again, I'll probably aim for 12+. I feel maybe I should apply to some clinical psych programs as counseling psych is usually not very big on problem-solving kind of research. Any thoughts?

Well, everyone lies to get in, and that's essentially why counseling psychology is a dying subfield, IMO--there's no purpose for it, as it's full of lazy researchers and people who just want to be "counselors." Thank your lucky stars that you were saved from that horror, get a job, and enjoy your evenings and weekends for the rest of your life.

Ahem, sorry...bad day. But seriously, I mean it.

 

[erg923]

Well, everyone lies to get in, and that's essentially why counseling psychology is a dying subfield, IMO--there's no purpose for it, as it's full of lazy researchers and people who just want to be "counselors." Thank your lucky stars that you were saved from that horror, get a job, and enjoy your evenings and weekends for the rest of your life.

Ahem, sorry...bad day. But seriously, I mean it.

No need to paint with such a broad brush. My department has Counseling Ph.Ds and they are great! The most active researchers in the department. I dont really know the difference between the two degrees, but suffice to say the counseling ph,ds from the local state school here are generally more apt clinicians than the folks from the clinical program at the same university. Anyway, I am immensely curious about your program and what is making your experience so awful. Do other students in your program feel thew same way? Why, exactly are your classes so unbearable? As a new professor teaching clinically-oriented classes, it might be good to know what is REALLY viewed as good or bad by students? I am also curious why you feel you wont/cant grow as a clinician through your practicums. The change you see from a 2nd year grad student clinicians/therapists to 4 or 5th year grad student clinicians/therapists is lightyears, in my experience.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

No need to paint with such a broad brush. My department has Counseling Ph.Ds and they are great! The most active researchers in the department. I dont really know the difference between the two degrees, but suffice to say the counseling ph,ds from the local state school here are generally more apt clinicians than the folks from the clinical program at the same university. Anyway, I am immensely curious about your program and what is making your experience so awful. Do other students in your program feel thew same way? Why, exactly are your classes so unbearable? As a new professor teaching clinically-oriented classes, it might be good to know what is REALLY viewed as good or bad by students? I am also curious why you feel you wont/cant grow as a clinician through your practicums. The change you see from a 2nd year grad student clinicians/therapists to 4 or 5th year grad student clinicians/therapists is lightyears, in my experience.

Well, I've responded to you before about this, so I think you have a good idea. Feel free to PM me for details, but I just don't see the point in repeating coursework that I took in my master's program (which, in many cases, was better in that program). It's pointless, mindless repetition. Why bother in practicums when you can work? I don't doubt that growth can happen in 2-3 years, but it doesn't have to happen in a PhD program while living in poverty. That's all besides the fact that a PhD is a research-oriented degree, not a practice-oriented degree...or, it should be, IMO.

 

[Pragma]

Doesn't it kind of depend if you are a counselor counselor or a counseling psychologist? I get the sense that the pure counselors view themselves as much different than psychologists. My impression was that counseling psychology phds were more research oriented than counseling phds.

 

[xyzpsych]

How many pubs/presentations do you have? Can you get licensed after you graduate from your current program?

I think if you're serious about a PhD, then you need to throw yourself into research (which it looks like you're attempting by working towards a research-oriented master's degree). My suggestions for you would be to narrow down your focus, develop an interesting take on whatever issues you're hoping to study, try and work on research that will allow you to gain experience in that specific field, and then apply to programs with POI's that share your interests.

Sorry for sounding so cliché!

Thanks for responding I actually had one poster presentation last year and will have another one this year at APA. I'm also co-author on my current advisor's symposium at this year's APA.

I actually have been pretty much doing what you said, but I became increasingly aware of my passion probably only this past year of applying. Long made short, my interest in research is really using science to solve existing problems. Particularly, I'm intrerested in increasing psychological help-seeking for different populations struggling with different issues. I'm interested in community intervention strategies as well as public health research. I'm originally from an Asian country so I hope to conduct research internationally someday. Is there any lab that you know that you'd recommend I contact. Help-seeking is unfortunately a very unfashionable topic and not many faculty specialize in that. The only person that I know is the POI at the program where I was waitlisted.

I'm also looking for jobs and am feeling lucky for having been called for interviews. But it's difficult given that I'm international student and I need work visa to work here.

 

[xyzpsych]

Doesn't it kind of depend if you are a counselor counselor or a counseling psychologist? I get the sense that the pure counselors view themselves as much different than psychologists. My impression was that counseling psychology phds were more research oriented than counseling phds.

Pragma,

Are you talking about the differences between counseling phd vs counseling education phd?

 

[xyzpsych]

Hi,

I would like to address the following questions to both of you: so you think there's any chance in applying (either counseling or clinical) for someone with strong interest in working in the applied front of research (without lying)? I want to use science to solve problems and I want to be good at it. I feel I have ideas and passion and I want to make them known. I'm looking for ways to implement them. Only I don't see myself working in academia.

Alternatively, do you have any suggestions how I can edit my story so I sound like a promising candidate without lying?

Is there another way to achieve my goal without getting a PhD?

Much appreciated!

 

[Pragma]

Pragma,

Are you talking about the differences between counseling phd vs counseling education phd?

Not necessarily...the difference between a counseling degree and a counseling psychology degree. Don't most counselors come from counseling departments (not psychology departments)?

A lot of schools have counseling departments housed within education. They often have tracks like school, community, counselor education, etc. My understanding is that those types of programs are much more ACA than APA and prefer their faculty identify as counselors and not psychologists.

ETA: maybe it reflects my own misunderstanding of counseling, but are there doctoral degrees aside from counselor education degrees? I get that licensure remains at the masters level. But I also understand that their accrediting bodies are increasingly moving away from psychology. I had looked into a program like that when I was on the faculty market and they indicated that faculty members could not identify as psychologists.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Hi,

I would like to address the following questions to both of you: so you think there's any chance in applying (either counseling or clinical) for someone with strong interest in working in the applied front of research (without lying)? I want to use science to solve problems and I want to be good at it. I feel I have ideas and passion and I want to make them known. I'm looking for ways to implement them. Only I don't see myself working in academia.

Alternatively, do you have any suggestions how I can edit my story so I sound like a promising candidate without lying?

Is there another way to achieve my goal without getting a PhD?

Much appreciated!

I'm not clear on what you want to actually do. Your interests sound vague, and maybe that's because you're on a public forum (understandable), but why do you need a doctorate to do what you want to do? Why not practice and use your master's degree? Master's level clinicians use science to solve problems all the time. I see a lot of students who panic when they get their master's degree and want to continue because they are scared of what the job market is like (or they've always been in school, etc.). Maybe you need to dig deep and find out exactly what a doctoral degree will do for you and why (or why not) it is important now and in the future.

Not necessarily...the difference between a counseling degree and a counseling psychology degree. Don't most counselors come from counseling departments (not psychology departments)?

What I see is that counseling psychology attracts a lot of folks with a 'counseling' background--indeed, the history of the subfield identifies with counseling in many ways. Also, in Colleges of Ed., you have master's programs that utilize CACREP faculty and therefore have a mix of counseling psychology (APA) and counselor ed/superv (CACREP) faculty. Therefore, many of the folks in these departments identify as counselors and call what they do "counseling" (there is a trend for disliking the term "therapy"). There isn't a strong identity as future psychologists, in my program, for quite some time until licensure it seems. When there is so much crossover and no clear identity, you have a field that doesn't differentiate much from counseling.

 

[Pragma]

What I see is that counseling psychology attracts a lot of folks with a 'counseling' background--indeed, the history of the subfield identifies with counseling in many ways. Also, in Colleges of Ed., you have master's programs that utilize CACREP faculty and therefore have a mix of counseling psychology (APA) and counselor ed/superv (CACREP) faculty. Therefore, many of the folks in these departments identify as counselors and call what they do "counseling" (there is a trend for disliking the term "therapy"). There isn't a strong identity as future psychologists, in my program, for quite some time until licensure it seems. When there is so much crossover and no clear identity, you have a field that doesn't differentiate much from counseling.

The program I had looked at had CACREP and they were the ones saying that APA was a no-no. I understand historically that the field has included a lot of APA-trained psychologists, but the impression I got was that they no longer want institutions to hire these folks unless they are clearly ACA types.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

The program I had looked at had CACREP and they were the ones saying that APA was a no-no. I understand historically that the field has included a lot of APA-trained psychologists, but the impression I got was that they no longer want institutions to hire these folks unless they are clearly ACA types.

Yeah, but what about when they have a counseling psychology PhD program AND a master's program? Then it gets tricky.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah, but what about when they have a counseling psychology PhD program AND a master's program? Then it gets tricky.

Are there any of those? My understanding was that CACREP formally has said that they don't want psychologists training counselors. I would imagine a counseling program would not be able to exist in a psychology department and be in line with those standards. I guess I am saying it sounds like ACA counselors don't want much to do with APA counseling psychologists (or clinical psychologists, for that matter). But I know little about it aside from what I heard in that job search experience and a few conversations with counselors.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Are there any of those?

Yup yup.

 

[Pragma]

Yup yup.

Okay...so are these programs accredited by CACREP? I am not sure if you are being helpful or dismissive of my inquiry...at least it doesn't seem helpful. I've heard this is a big deal within the counseling community and since you are in a counseling program, I would hope you could shed light.

 

[JustNoticing]

There are definitely schools out there that have a CACREP MA and APA PhD in the same department.

As for psychadelic's point about repeat coursework, I think this varies a lot by program. I inquired about this specifically with current students while on interviews at schools, and two different phd program's students reported not feeling like they were repeating the same material again (this was a worry of mine).

 

[Pragma]

There are definitely schools out there that have a CACREP MA and APA PhD in the same department.

As for psychadelic's point about repeat coursework, I think this varies a lot by program. I inquired about this specifically with current students while on interviews at schools, and two different phd program's students reported not feeling like they were repeating the same material again (this was a worry of mine).

Are they grandfathered in? Because someone told me a new accrediting body was started because the new standards are so restrictive about having psychologists as faculty. Just something I am curious about because it sounds like a big deal to me.

 

[xyzpsych]

Are there any of those? My understanding was that CACREP formally has said that they don't want psychologists training counselors. I would imagine a counseling program would not be able to exist in a psychology department and be in line with those standards. I guess I am saying it sounds like ACA counselors don't want much to do with APA counseling psychologists (or clinical psychologists, for that matter). But I know little about it aside from what I heard in that job search experience and a few conversations with counselors.

Actually that's the way it is where I'm at right now. That's why when they hire faculty, sometimes those with a background in counselor ed (CACREP accredited) has a leverage. The program need these people to make CACREP accreditation board happy while keeping its APA accreditation status at the same time.

 

[ela]

Im in an APA accred Counseling Psychology program in a department that also houses a Masters in counseling program that is currently seeking CACREP accreditation. All of the faculty who teach in the Counseling Psychology phd program are counseling psychologists. The masters faculty include a mix; primarily counseling psychologists, but a few PhD level Counseling Ed folks and several LPCs/LMFTs.

I don't know alot about CACREP's stance on having Psychologists teaching in their programs. The counselor ed faculty Im most familiar with seems to think all psychotherapy will be done by masters level folks, who will be taught be counselor educators. The psychologists I speak to have a different opinion. They are working together on CACREP stuff so...Who knows?

More players in an already crowded turf war.

 

[Pragma]

Im in an APA accred Counseling Psychology program in a department that also houses a Masters in counseling program that is currently seeking CACREP accreditation. All of the faculty who teach in the Counseling Psychology phd program are counseling psychologists. The masters faculty include a mix; primarily counseling psychologists, but a few PhD level Counseling Ed folks and several LPCs/LMFTs.

I don't know alot about CACREP's stance on having Psychologists teaching in their programs. The counselor ed faculty Im most familiar with seems to think all psychotherapy will be done by masters level folks, who will be taught be counselor educators. The psychologists I speak to have a different opinion. They are working together on CACREP stuff so...Who knows?

More players in an already crowded turf war.

Google search led to this statement...interesting:


http://www.cacrep.org/detail/article.cfm?article_id=17

From the statement:

There was an announcement of a new accrediting body for counseling programs at the ACA annual conference in New Orleans in March. The Masters in Counseling Accreditation Council (MCAC) is a branch of the Masters in Psychology and Counseling Accreditation Council (MPCAC). The purpose of this new body is to accredit master's degree programs in counseling that value the benefits of multidisciplinary departments. This would presumably include programs in psychology departments and programs with faculty members who primarily identify as psychologists. It appears that this is in response to CACREP's standards that strengthen the counseling profession by putting increased emphasis on counselor professional identity. This new accrediting body will be seeking recognition from the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) and will be lobbying counselor licensure boards to recognize graduates of their programs for licensure as counselors, not psychologists. Seeking licensure as professional counselors for graduates of MCAC programs will only serve to dilute and distort our professional identity, since MCAC purports that core faculty may be hired from a variety of professions that may or may not have any identity as counselors and may or may not support and/or teach the ACA Code of Ethics. The first principle of ACA's 20/20 A Vision for the Future of Counseling states that a common professional identity is critical for counselors. This accrediting body would appear to work against this principle and would likely make portability of counselor licensure even more difficult.

 

[MBellows]

There was an announcement of a new accrediting body for counseling programs at the ACA annual conference in New Orleans in March. The Masters in Counseling Accreditation Council (MCAC) is a branch of the Masters in Psychology and Counseling Accreditation Council (MPCAC).

My accrediting body (CORE) has been trying to hash something out with CACREP for some time now, but to little avail. They wanted to make all Rehabilitation Counseling professors to go to CACREP accredited schools, which would mean that professors couldn't come from some of the top rehabilitation programs in the country. There isn't even universal agreement in the ACA about the value of CACREP other than its ability to stand up to SWers and their questionable lobbying practices.