need honest opinion

[Taty]

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I am sorry about asking stuff all over again but...

I'll graduate next June. My undegrad GPA is about 3.65 and my graduate will be about 3.85. I have combined degree program ( Computer Science /Inform systems). I do research at Rockefeller University ( computer tumor growth modeling), I also have some volunteer experience,not a lot because I have to work almost full time to pay my tuition. I took all premed classes.
I got all A's and A-,exept organic second - B.
I want to apply for M.D. /Ph.D (Medical Informatics or Tumor Modeling or Tumor Biology) program, I think that my undegrad GPA kind of low for it and they'll not look for my grad GPA because it is an Information Systems that has nothing to do with Medicine.
What do u think about it? should I take more advanced undegrad classes? Or should I concentrate on MCAT?

The thing is that everybody aaround tells me that apply with 3.65 as undegrad for M.D./Ph.D going to result in a great failure even, but I think that MCAT's will show...

Any opinions? I'll be very appreciated.

 

[DarkChild]

apply. dont even sweat the haters. the MD/PhD game is more about your research experience, aptittude for research (LORs) and your career goals than about straight numbers.
hey, a 3.65 rounds to a 3.7 right 😉 besides, if numbers were everything, your GPA is 0.05 higher than mine. and i got in
you'll be fine.
as always:
i) work hard on your MCATs
ii) FOR THE LOVE OF GOD APPLY EARLY!!!

 

[Neuronix]

DarkChild is right, everyone else is wrong. If your research is good (publications would be helpful but not necessary) and you get a good score on the MCAT (34+, depending on how much research experience you have), you shouldn't have any problems getting interviews. Of course this assumes good LORs and personal statement as well.

I think you have an excellent shot at MD/PhD. Just do well on the MCAT!

 

[cmsmstp]

I have a 3.5 GPA and I got into 5 MSTP programs, so I wouldn't worry about your GPA much.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by Taty
I am sorry about asking stuff all over again but...

I'll graduate next June. My undegrad GPA is about 3.65 and my graduate will be about 3.85. I have combined degree program ( Computer Science /Inform systems). I do research at Rockefeller University ( computer tumor growth modeling), I also have some volunteer experience,not a lot because I have to work almost full time to pay my tuition. I took all premed classes.
I got all A's and A-,exept organic second - B.
I want to apply for M.D. /Ph.D (Medical Informatics or Tumor Modeling or Tumor Biology) program, I think that my undegrad GPA kind of low for it and they'll not look for my grad GPA because it is an Information Systems that has nothing to do with Medicine.
What do u think about it? should I take more advanced undegrad classes? Or should I concentrate on MCAT?

The thing is that everybody aaround tells me that apply with 3.65 as undegrad for M.D./Ph.D going to result in a great failure even, but I think that MCAT's will show...

Any opinions? I'll be very appreciated.

My undergrad GPA was around 3.65 overall or just a tad higher, and I got into 5 MSTP too.

 

[Taty]

Thank you for your support guys!🙂 I'll definitly try to do my best.

 

[tofurious]

I would also work on the application essay too and make sure you don't have too many grammatical errors. "Tumor modeling" probably isn't as hot/established a field as Tumor Biology, and frankly, an IS degree is not considered a strong program of study. While I agree that folks already enrolled in combined programs should be supportive, I think we should also avoid feeding the applicants false enthusiasm... If I were on the admission committee, I would seriously question how much of medicine you are familiar with to want to go into medicine as a career, and unless there is someone on the committee who has a special interest in computer-based tumor modeling, any pure computer work without biological correlate is just video games in many old biologists' eyes...

That aside, I would highly advise you to get your hands wet in biology and medicine, i.e. go beyond the silicon in studying the disease of cancer. Rockfeller has some fabulous resources that it would be a shame for you to not tap into.

 

[Neuronix]

While I do agree with tofurious about making sure the op's grammar/spelling is perfect on essays, I respectfully disagree with the rest of his message.

Most of my research has been based on computer modeling of neural networks. Yes, I do have some molecular experience since I have been in a molecular lab for the past 10 months, but I was surprised how many faculty in modeling and physiology sought me out for my systems experience. Certainly, some molecular biologists may not see modeling as real "science"--heck, I'm not even sure I do. However, some schools are strong in bioinformatics/systems biology, and so the op has a great shot at those schools if he wishes to persue that. I think Habari, who did very well in the admissions game, would agree with me. He also did alot of systems work and he says that helped him a great deal.

I do suggest that the op have his pre-med requisites completed of course. I also suggest that he have some volunteer experience so he can demonstrate interest in medicine. Beyond that, systems biology is reseach and it is a viable option for MD/PhDs. If the op wants molecular experience, I think that may strengthen his application in the respect that he will be able to apply to a wider range of schools that may be strong in molecular tumor biology. He will also have more people to talk to and will be better able to relate to molecular people who interview him. Nevertheless, if he is focused on modeling, then I say he should put his all into that. I think just about everyone will have respect for someone who seems to know what they are talking about in their own area.

To the op: when it is time to apply come back and ask about MSTPs that are strong in systems biology. I think you'll do just fine.

 

[tofurious]

In essence, Neuronix is actually agreeing with me that you need somebody on the admission committee *who knows computer modeling* to appreciate your application. Here are a couple of observations I have made. First, if somebody on the ad com really likes you, you'd better make sure he/she shows up at the ad com meetings to vouch for you. Second, getting into a program doesn't guarantee success. I have seen a couple of students strong in computer sciences abused by molecular biology PIs as computer technicians. There is nothing worse than HAVING to quit a lab to look for another lab. (These are the realities of programs people don't talk about before being knee-deep in you-know-what) Third, if your PI is the only one at your institution who can appreciate/understand what you do, you may feel very lonely someday if the relationship between you and your PI takes a downturn. Thus, I strongly recommend the applicant to broaden his horizon (scientific and personal) so that down the road he is not confined to too small a niche.

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by tofurious
In essence, Neuronix is actually agreeing with me that you need somebody on the admission committee *who knows computer modeling* to appreciate your application.

No, I disagree with that statement. I know too many applicants and students who are computer modelers who did just fine in the application process for this to be true. I also think that the number of people who do not respect systems biology is very small. Sure I could possibly see what you are propsing, but I don't think it is happening frequently. Either the committee is diverse enough to speak for the diverse interests of their applicants (e.g. they realize that not everyone is going to be molecular) or the committee members are respectful enough to respect informatics research. Perhaps what you are saying is the way it is at Mayo, but conversations with current students at other schools who do systems modeling have told me otherwise.

Of course getting into a program doesn't guarantee success. Many graduate students end up being used as a tech in their lab for a year or more. It's a good thing with MD/PhD programs that there should be enough oversight that if this begins to happen, you can pull yourself out of it. Also, fallouts with PIs happen. I had a very difficult time with my current PI, but I worked hard for him and I felt that I did good work. If this had been my graduate mentor, I am certain I would have had to switch labs. My point is that these pitfalls you are proposing are potentially common to all graduate students, regardless of their area.

Also, I seriously doubt that the op is going to go to any school that only has ONE PI who is doing modeling. Again, I don't know how it is where you are, but there are MANY schools that have MANY people who do systems biology. It could be that way for any specialty. What if someone who wants to do pharm goes to a weak pharmacology school and ends up with only one PI who does work he likes? It would be a bad choice, as it would be for him to go to a weak systems school.

My point is that the op's path is up to him. If he wants to do systems only, that's his perogative. We have post-docs here who have only ever done one specific thing. However, if he wants to broaden his horizons, he will also have plenty of opportunity to do that as well, both before and after he begins MSTP. Of course he will have to be careful in choosing what school and what lab to go to, but don't we all?

 

[surge]

Neuronix is absolutely right.

I have personally met and gotten to know at least two applicants this year who have never stepped into a wet lab. One is ending up at UTSouthwestern, the other at WashU.

While things that tofurious is proposing theoretically can happen, you cannot go into anything with such a negative attitude, least of all one of the hardest and challenging processes you'll ever experience. No guts no glory, baby.

The funny thing is that these two guys had similar concerns like you, but the exact opposite turned out to be the case. Us molecular biologists are dime a dozen. You computer guys are a rare comodity, and if you do it right, it can significantly play into your advantage.
No disrespect intended, but I read tofurious is almost done with his/her program - and I think that the attitudes towards computational biologists have changed significantly since the time he/she was applying. Anyone today who doesn't recognize the need and the potential of computers in the biomedical sciences is falling seriously behind.

The bottom line is, kick ass on the MCAT, and you'll do great. Good luck.

 

[Habari]

need somebody on the admission committee *who knows computer modeling* to appreciate your application

i also strongly disagree with that statement - in fact, it is even more impressive if you can explain your 'computer modeling' work to someone who doesn't know everything/anything about it. the ability to distill complex concepts into bite-sized mental nuggets is a skill that i imagine will come in handy down the road in both medicine and research.

having said this - it is important to be able to contextualize your work within a broader medically related schema. i discussed this with dr. david altschuler, an assistant prof at harvard med and director of the genome sequencing facility at whitehead - he is a researcher with no clinical responsiblities, but finds his medical training essential for focusing his interests on human-disease related problems he otherwise would not have.

part of your challenge as a computational specialist is proving to those in wet labs that your 'models' have the potential [not even nessecarily demonstrated potential] to be applied to medically related problems.

and don't be fooled - those in 'wet labs' value computational experts as much as hardcore 'modelers' do. it has already become cliche - but the lines are blurring, and being versed in both sides of approaching scientific problems is an excellent skill. speak to that and you will do well.

 

[Taty]

Neuronix, people from Rockefeller University (who I know) have exactly the same point of view as you do.

To make a tumor computer model one should know a process of tumor growing and etc. So, tofurious, I do not complain about my biology and chemistry knowledge. I decided in favor of Medical School when I was junior, I am a *hard luck tale* applicant coming from cancer family, so, as u can see, though, I do not have a lot of volunteering experience, I have experience because I cared of sick family members. When I applied to college I applied to B.A./M.S Comp Sci/ Inf Sys combined program and I did not know what I'll decide to go to medical school, and when I decided to go to medical school it was too late to drop anything, so I just took pre-med classes and declared chemistry minor. I also had to pay my tuition and I had full time job with 18 credits course load .
I do agree that u said about my essay, English is not my native language. I also agree that I'll have a problem to convince admissions why I decided to study medicine, but anyway I hope what I'll do it...

Thanks.

 

[JJ4]

I totally agree. Just to reiterate everyone else, I think the MD/PhD route for those interested in pursuing IS based medical research is fantastic. Particularly in the face of the many failing animal models in tumor biology (which I am now seeing more and more as a grad student), like the others said, computer based models and simulated systems are going to be huge in the coming years. Furthermore, being that most of the guys doing IS based biology are more engineers than they are medical researchers, your ideas in the context of your clinical training can go a long way, and that's the kind of voice that is needed to project the field forward. Nonetheless (if you haven't already done so), I think it would be a good idea to also get your feet wet in some molecular biology in the traditional sense. While they are a dime a dozen, at least for the next few years, much of the modeling will need to be backed up with hard cellular evidence. While you can still do an entire thesis purely based off of simulated technology and its applications (actually, contrary to the feel that tofurious may have projected, a BME grad student here at Mayo did just that and did very well) I think a solid understanding (and a little experience) in traditional molecular biology techniques is critical for most any grad student.

But going back to the original thought, I think you can go real far with an MD/PhD coupled with your passion for tumor modeling. To establish the genetic profile of individual tumors and to assess related molecular functions which may determine prognosis will most likely, ultimately, direct the design of individually-tailored treatments. Also, on a more practical thought, for those of us interested in the surgical (and other more clinically focused) subspecialties, it works pretty nicely. There's a neurosurgeon here who's changing a lot of his focus to tumor/cerebrovascular modeling and has told me it's actually making for a much better setup as as he doesn't have to worry if his mice were bred, cages were cleaned, or the cells were split while getting paged to the OR. Good luck!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Neuronix
No, I disagree with that statement. I know too many applicants and students who are computer modelers who did just fine in the application process for this to be true. I also think that the number of people who do not respect systems biology is very small.

Of course getting into a program doesn't guarantee success. Many graduate students end up being used as a tech in their lab for a year or more. It's a good thing with MD/PhD programs that there should be enough oversight that if this begins to happen, you can pull yourself out of it. Also, fallouts with PIs happen.

My point is that these pitfalls you are proposing are potentially common to all graduate students, regardless of their area.


My point is that the op's path is up to him. If he wants to do systems only, that's his perogative. We have post-docs here who have only ever done one specific thing. However, if he wants to broaden his horizons, he will also have plenty of opportunity to do that as well, both before and after he begins MSTP. Of course he will have to be careful in choosing what school and what lab to go to, but don't we all?

Right on point, Neuronix !!!

And speaking from expereince, having a background in bioinformatics and molecular biology (although it's not my primary area) is/has served me quite well and PI's are often quite impressed to see it on my CV. So to the OP, stick with what you're interested in. Everything else eventually falls right into place.

 

[Neuronix]

So Taty, one quick thing I'd like to warn you about. Are you a US citizen or do you have permanent resident status? If not, your choice of schools you can apply to will be limited and you will be competing for fewer spots. If you are, forget I asked. You will also be at a disadvantage if you don't speak fluent English, but that depends on how good your spoken English is.

When you write your essay, have others review it. There should be a writing or career center there that will help you out. Ask your PI or someone involved with pre-med also, as they often know what makes a good personal statement.

Good luck!

 

[surge]

Also, if you indeed are an int'l student, don't hesitate to ask for advice, as there's a number of us foreigners here 😉

 

[Taty]

I have a green card, just got it 2 months ago

 

[Taty]

I also have one more question...Will admission look on my graduate GPA, or my graduate GPA just...waste of time for nothing?