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Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Jackie B, Mar 29, 2012.
what do you guys think?
25% percent growth, yet no data on the ever increasing number of pharmacists being pumped out of diploma mills. Average class of UIC is over 200 by itself. Add up all the pharmacy schools across the country, plus all the new one's opening up... it should scare you. 69,700 new jobs over 10 years = only 6790 new jobs per year. There's more than 33 pharmacy schools in the country LOL (200 grads per year * 33 schools = 6600 more competitors for your job). These stats are pretty depressing.
Isnt taking into account retirement of approx ~5000 pharmacists per year or more. These are new structural jobs, not "total jobs offered" per year, which would include annual pharmacist separations from the workforce. These numbers are closely following the numbers from the special report on pharmacists that was published in the late 2000s, which was written to address the expansion of pharmacy education. BLS may not have boots on the ground, so to speak, but their numbers are consistent with their models, which are pretty damn detailed.
1. I'm going to be a new student this fall at a relatively new pharmacy school.. I'm not a fan of the "diploma mill" phrase
2. You mean we will actually have to COMPETE for jobs? How DO people DO it??
P.S. I think all the doom and gloomer positions have been filled. Please apply at a later date.
I was about to point out that little fact about statistics.
New school doesn't necessarily mean diploma mill, it's just you have to do your own research vs. relying on someone else's opinion. There are some not-so-new schools one can consider a diploma mill.
Wait till you are 200k in debt to say that.. unless you are paying/will have someone pay for your education
Another thing to consider is the fact that pharmacies are becoming more efficient. For example mail order facilities fill many more scripts per pharmacist than retail positions.
I hope this is offset by the amount of new positions opening in emerging areas.
Time will tell! No matter what school, if you strive for the best, you will always have a job,
Actually NABP publishes NAPLEX passrates which include student population. Just thought I'd put that out there.
I still don't see how this is different from any other profession. Those with experience, a strong resume, a strong network from a good school will be more competitive. Fight to the finish!
NAPLEX passing rates don't prove anything, because they increase and decrease yearly. In fact, in 2011, every single school was above 80%.
It's different, because you have serious debt and can not pay it off without loads of cash in your bank account or a job. How would I pay my $1,500 a month student loan payment without a job?
Exactly. It's actually super accurate. You have the exact number of students and the pass rate. You can even calculate the number of grads out in your state and compare it to market saturation, new pharmacies, etc. etc.
If a pharmacy school has less than 96% passrate I would run..but below 80...shut down already.
C'mon now. I know pharmacist need to take statistics in undergrad. Let's not be lazy.
I think Parklife was just trying to point out that one could use the number of candidates passing as a tool to get a good idea of how many Pharmacists are entering the workforce for a given year...not necessarily what the passing rates were/are. At least that is what I gathered from his/her post.
Shut the schools down? Then I wouldn't have a license. So in 2010, are you going to shut down all of the HBCU schools and Peurto Rico, because their passing rates were below 80%? Talk about a lawsuit on your hands.
You have no clue.
Honestly, I don't know what the dude's thinking.
Just in case anyone is interested, I was bored so I added up all the candidates that sat for the NAPLEX in 2011 and it totaled 7695. Given an average or rough passing rate at around ~94%, the math can easily be done on how many people entered the workforce as a registered Pharmacist. With new schools popping up and other dynamic changes, this number will only increase.
http://www.nabp.net/programs/assets/NAPLEX passing rates.pdf
Heard Rite aid in Pa is starting new pharms at 45.00/hr and a 30 hour work week.I remember when they handed out bonuses for new hires and to get people to stay. Just about every high school kid or parent of one tells me how their son or daughter wants to go to pharmacy school. sure has changed.
Yes? Why would you want someone without accreditation as your health professional?
Ugh, why do people still have a massive boner for NAPLEX pass rates? Do prepharms/pharm students still not realize that this test isn't a valid indicator of anything?
The only thing it's good for is how well you are at taking a test called NAPLEX the first time around.
It'll be more like 100%, those pass rates are for 1st time test taking. I really don't know anyone who would subject themselves to 4 years of school + loans and up and quit because of a silly test that one can pass after a few weeks of studying.
And forget new schools opening, I'd be worried about existing schools expanding. It's vastly easier to do that/open a satellite campus with some corporate structure association vs. de novo opening of a new school.
That's not really indicative of who is entering the workforce. Some people will take the NAPLEX and then don't work full-time or don't work at all.
My score was over 100, a good score. What are we talking about again? Oh, your perception of what makes a pharmacy school a bad pharmacy school. Hmmmm... maybe try going to pharmacy school first.
We were actually talking about predicting the number of new pharmacists entering the job market which was a tangent of the thread topic regarding BLS's new numbers.
Yes it is... you have the student body down to the number. Do some math. It's honestly the closest estimate anyone can get. I mean obviously you can't get a 100% answer. That defies the science behind statistics.
Confetti, obviously people will eventually pass NAPLEX..but you can still account for new grads for that year in certain areas. Who fails out of pharmacy school? Also:
Pharmacy student who passes NAPLEX the first time vs pharmacy student who fails NAPLEX the first time. Think about this statement for a moment. No reply necessary, just as much cognitive reasoning you can spare. Apparently nothing is a good indicator of anything. SAT/ACT scores? Nah, it's useless. Undergrad rigor? Nah, it's useless. Ranking of pharm school? Nah, it's useless. NAPLEX pass rate? Nah, it's useless. BLS statistics with RSE of 0.3? Nah, it's useless.
Where did you two go to school pharmDstudent and confettiflyer?
PharmDstudent. Don't be a jerk just because I joked with you about calling someone sexist. Sorry I hurt your feelings, but you don't need to hold a vendetta against me every time I post.
The NAPLEX is a test for the bare minimum competency a pharmacist is expected to have. In order to pass, you have to score 75/150(185) points. Most individuals I know aren't worried about the NAPLEX at all.
lol...i'm apparently getting schooled by a pre-pharm about...pharmacy.
Finish pharm school and come talk to me about what you think re: US news rankings, BLS stats, and NAPLEX.
And I never said undergrad rigor or SAT/ACT scores are useless...quite the contrary. Now you're just making things up.
Man what's with idiot pre-pharms taking a mental dump in the pharmacy forums? Go back to your WAMC and salary threads!
Uhm... in order to compete for a job, there has to be a job in the first place. Think of this as the Hunger games. There are 400 graduates fighting for 1 spot to make it out alive. Okay 2, if the rules are changed. Not really a competition if you think about it
May the odds be in your favor.
Does that make sense? I dont think pre pharmacy students under the severity of their situation.
i was wondering when the first hunger games comparison would come out
Chill out folks. You have 30 million people without insurance getting insurance very soon. You think those people that haven't had health coverage in forever aren't going to have a few Rx for you to fill?
Look at the amount of money spend on drugs in Europe! We are headed that way with more money focused on drugs and preventive medicine. You will be fine....well most of you will be.
My school still has 100% placement, and I haven't heard of anyone getting the shaft on hours.
Unconstitutional direct non-apportioned tax tho.
Good think we have Supremes imo.
Not after the ribbing the ACA got with the SCOTUS this week
Isn't it obvious yet for the pre-pharms?
They will need a PGY1 to staff at a hospital and/or they will get 24-32 hours/week at WalCVS-Aid. Either way they will be >$200K in student debt and relying on the Congress to not resind whatever cock-a-manie debt forgiveness program there is right now. I think IRB is the flavour of the month.
No worries though. Everyone of our pre-pharms at SDN forums are unique and special little angels that will definitely be able to get a job. Gloom and doomers we are. They know the profession. They've read Yahoo! Job Postings. Also all the taxes we keep talking about don't exist. Only "the rich" pay taxes. What is our effective tax rate guys? Oh yeah, like 5% right? Gotta get those deductions that are just "out there" and just "talk to your accountant".
They are going to throw out the mandate to buy insurance. They aren't going to throw out the medicaid piece. I am not sure they will throw out the mandate. The government makes you buy stuff all the time.
Just don't tell them to go back to the new school and pumping pharmacists thread. Please.
My father is a pharmacist. I know how it was and I know the current market. Since I am a CPA....I know a lot about taxes. I highly doubt many pharmacist are paying 5% though I could see it being possible in some cases depending... I would guess most around around 15-20% effective depending on a lot of factors.
Is it really a fear of not having a job or not having the exact job you want? I mean back in the day you pretty much had your pick as my father had a recruiter call pretty much daily.
That said.... I don't see a lot of unemployed pharmacist out there. Are some new hires getting short hours? It seems like in some of the more populated areas, but the more rural areas seem to be getting all they want.
Is everyone going to get the job they want? No. Could salaries get depressed? Sure! Could hours be less than 40? They are now in some areas. Is all this doom and gloom really needed or justified?
I just think they are a lot of things people overlook out of fear. People are getting older, the government is going to do something about people not being covered (right or wrong), a lot of pharmacist put off retirement due to the decline in 401k in 2008-2010 yet they will stop working at some point.
I really don't know about the severability issue. One of the justices made a good point that exercising judicial restraint may very well require them to throw out the whole law because rescinding only the mandate results in a very different law than what congress intended.
And what stuff does government make you buy on the private market without a corresponding choice to not buy? Car insurance? take the bus!
Make it a different law....It will do that for sure.
There was some history of them making people buy stuff based on career choices, but you have a good point...they could get a job in a different field. Then again, the law didn't force you to buy insurance....you could pay whatever they called the penalty "tax". Just like you could ride the bus. It will very likely go 5-4 to strike at least part of it down.
I think the law is crap myself, but I did a lot of accounting for hospitals back in the day. They are totally getting hosed on the uninsured, and a lot of the hospitals at least around here are government owned or not for profit. Also, they pass on those cost to those that can pay via higher cost to paying customers. Taxpayers are paying either way (directly or indirectly) ....at least this way some people are being forced to pay something directly.
That said....it really screws younger health citizens for the benefit of the older sick citizens.
People sick are going to crash healthcare providers somewhere...clinics, ER, or doctor's offices depending on their finances. They are cost the system more money by not getting cheaper Tx early to avoid the expensive Tx given in the ER. It makes sense to eat the cheaper cost to avoid the end cost from a business point of view if you are the payer either way (government through medicaid on the drugs or the owner of the hospital force to give free care in ER).
Yeah I could give a hot deuce about society or the costs they incur -- I want this thing to pass to keep the cash flowing to healthcare, especially with all these new effing schools opening and the unfortunate automation/etc. increases in efficiency in pharmacy. Forget principles. I'd be for the law if they were forcing everyone to buy metformin/simvastatin/omeprazole every month whether they needed it or not!
Game. Set. Match.
3 pharmacist at my workplace : 2 over 80 and 1 over 66, they are as ineffective as it can be; as a matter of fact, they create burden on others, and they won't retire.
Jobs nowadays are hard, and that student loan debt is just ...so threatening...
That's the thing that really gets me. If there are so few jobs available, and such a glut of new pharmacists waiting for positions, why the heck do companies keep these old duffers employed? I worked with a pharmacist (not sure of the age) who told me "I can't hear very well, so if there's a phone call, it's for you... I'm to old to learn the ins and outs of the computer system, so anything advanced is up to you." This guy was a per diem, so it's not like I had to deal with him often, only on rare occasion, but still.
I know you can't "age discriminate" but this is performance based. You can't do the job, or do it poorly. Let a strapping young lad such as myself take the position.
Never thought having older pharmacists could cause some problems...usually in healthcare, more experience = more prestige and respect from others
Looking at your past posts your main argument is usually "pre-pharm doesn't know ****" when you insult pre-pharm students for just "considering" pharmacy.
I'm not trying to school you at all. Obviously I don't know as much about pharmacy. You don't know me. How could you even judge by a name plate on an online forum? I don't see a pharmacist verification badge on your profile. You might not even be a pharmacist. Interestingly enough, most of the strongest doom and gloom proponents don't. I mean you can think whatever you want...I can only look at placement, proof, statistics, and numbers. If you think BLS is less reliable than some dude on a forum then that statement speaks for itself. I have to use the resources I have available. It's not 100% but it's accurate enough.
Just because a random pharmacist on some forum said something does not make it true. Everything here is anecdote and opinion. We're not in a lab conducting science. No one knows for sure. lol @ how neither of you answered my question at what pharmacy school you went to... and they say scores don't matter. To those of you who contributed to this thread, thanks. To those of you who just insulted me and other pre-pharms, get out of here..
Rxlea, as an admin I would think you would be a little more considerate towards your younger members. This is STUDENTdoctor.net. All you miserable pharmacists need to find somewhere else to play. I come here looking for feedback and all I get are shelled out and angry pharmacists who spend hours on end online. 7+ years? Yikes! Well, alrighty then! I mean i understand constructive criticisim and being honest, but seriously. Look at your posts guys. Just look at them. "idiot pre-pharms" "boner for NAPLEX" really? What a Joke. Who's more immature you or me? How can people like this even get into professional school. America has such low standards.
In all honesty, I appreciate all of your feedback(pharmDstudent and confetti as well) on this thread. I will continue to explore my options in pharmacy and other professions, while evaluating the job market. I will continue take advice from my vandy undergrad and UK grad pharmacist/physician mentor and people of the like.
Good luck to all the pre-pharm/pharm students/pharmacists who are down on their luck.
Its harder to get rid of old pharmacists who should be retired for many reasons.
Companies dont want to deal with law suits. They need the diversity. Pharmacy supervisors have two bosses. Their regional manager and HR business partners. They have to answer to both.
That is exactly why I am telling pre pharmacy students that this is not a fair game. My job is mines to "lose". I lose it only if i do not follow company policies. In the mean time, they can wait 20 years with >150k student loans for my job.
I love the newbies! You are in for a hard dose of reality my friend. You may not survive the crash back to earth. Just remember you are unique just like everyone else.
Wait untill you are the "old duffy" and I bet you will have a different opinion.
Using your logic lets just euthanize anyone over say the age of 65. They are just a non productive burden on society right?
After all a young strapping lad like yourself needs a job so lets clear out all the old farts.
You just have no clue. It's painful to watch. Sorry...
Obviously we have no clue. We are just bitter pharmacists. Paying our student loans and our taxes. Paying rent and/or a mortgage. Trying to hold onto our jobs.
As a pre-health student he knows the truth about the Candy Mountain where we all go to and play. Where the streets are paved with gold. Where are student loans are forgiven the day we earn the PharmD. How all the pharmacists lie about the car they drive. We don't drive the Porsche to the pharmacy lol. Can't let the interns and patients see it. I think he knows. He knows too much.
Prepharms dont know crap. pharm students are almost as clueless. Most pharmacists whos been stuck in one job for a whle are typically clueless. they are especially cluless because they dont know what they dont know. So...there you have it. I thought your arguing with dumb pharmacists on sdn made you decide to not pursue pharm.
Again, I have never ever claimed to know more than anyone. Awval. Read bold. If you still think I claim to be a know-it-all pre-pharm, give up your pharmD to a fiery volcano and work at a regional fast food joint. You are not needed in this world as a health professional. Good day to you sir.
Z, was this sarcasm? Because if it isn't, I love you for posting this.
As I said, I will keep my options open. I am wary about job prospect now. Just because the bottom 30% of the profession can't find a worth while living as pharmacists doesn't mean I won't be able to, BUT finding a job is a different story. Holistic approach is important for any student.
I would love to know the current pharmacist that are so doom and gloom years out of school?
I am trying to figure out if they have been out for more than say 5+ years so they remember the mass shortage. I remember it as the phone would ring when I was in high school all the time as recruiters called my father. That isn't the current market for sure.
It is your job to lose. No reason to force someone out. I am sure that a lot of the old RPH (no PharmD) will get pushed out once more states do like Washington and give PharmD limited prescribing rights. Heck, most are going to be retired by then anyway (this is what 10-15 years away?). A lot of those older pharmacist have no reason to retire as they can make $600+ a day doing a 12 hour shift to help pay the bills (no reason to take money out of the 401k/IRA if you don't have too). Some of their kids could really use the inheritance as they aren't going to make that much money in their careers ever!!
The problem with the new grads (I will be one soon) is they for the most part have no real life experience (Heck a lot of Pharmacist don't have non-pharmacy experiences). I know as I am in classes with them. They don't understand that you have to suck it up at times and do stuff you don't want to do. Aka go to an area you don't want to live in for a few years. Just because you have a PharmD doesn't make you get everything you want.
I have yet to meet a graduate from my school that didn't get a job. Was it the job they wanted? Maybe not. Was it paying 100K+ (if not a residency) --- yep!!
The simple fact of the matter is pharmacist have it really good. My father has been one for 30+ years. You get paid very well, no oncall (if you are retail), and 2 to 5 days off a week (assuming how your schedule is, but you do work long days---shorter than what I was working at Ernst & Young with maybe 2 days off a week). Go work in public accounting at a Big 4 firm for a few years (those 18 hour days really suck ass when you are salary making like $60k a year)..... you will think CVS is heaven and think all these doom and gloomers are nuts.
Again....you are working like 40-45 hours a week making 115k+ with really no business travel. We have it made! So what if you have to bust your butt in the beginning to get a job and might have to put in your time in a rural area. There are worse things in life folks.... like public accounting.
Obviously I'd have a different opinion if I was the one who was miraculously holding onto a job while being dangerously incompetent and obsolete. Of course I'd want to milk that income rather than tap into my retirement. Actually, no, hopefully I would not let my greed jeopardize patient health, so I would like to think that my opinion will not change.
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of "old" pharmacists who are great and their 40+ years of practice make them extremely valuable. But there are the other ones who cannot practice, and probably should have hung it up 5 years ago. Like when there's the old lady driving 20mph on the highway, and you wish they had a drivers' license re-test, because there's no way this person should be on the road. Sure they want to keep that freedom, but it's just dangerous for them and for those around them. For companies that have metrics to follow, there is no way these pharmacists could meet them, and poor performance is a justifiable reason to get rid of someone. I'm not saying get rid of anyone who is "old" but certainly those who are incompetent. If you're a pharmacist and you can't hear to answer the phone, don't know the computer system, can't counsel besides reading the patient handout, what good are you doing, regardless of your age?