New China Med School Program

[hapaballer]

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I was recently told about a new (and I mean brand new) medical program that is for US citizens. Basically, the program is five years and the first four years is spent at China Medical University. Students get their MBBS (foreign equivalent to MD) and also obtain a Certificate of Completion in Clinical Pharmacy (US Master's equivalent), with the option to study traditional Chinese medicine, which I personally like. Then for the fifth year they go to New York Medical College for an extra year of hospital rotations. This is supposed to help with the residency match because most residency programs require US clinical experience.

Because it's a new program, admissions aren't going to be as competitive. And the more I look into the program, the more it seems to check out. What are your guys' thoughts? Does it compare to other foreign med schools (like the ones in the Caribbean)

 

[JaggerPlate]

I was recently told about a new (and I mean brand new) medical program that is for US citizens. Basically, the program is five years and the first four years is spent at China Medical University. Students get their MBBS (foreign equivalent to MD) and also obtain a Certificate of Completion in Clinical Pharmacy (US Master's equivalent), with the option to study traditional Chinese medicine, which I personally like. Then for the fifth year they go to New York Medical College for an extra year of hospital rotations. This is supposed to help with the residency match because most residency programs require US clinical experience.

Because it's a new program, admissions aren't going to be as competitive. And the more I look into the program, the more it seems to check out. What are your guys' thoughts? Does it compare to other foreign med schools (like the ones in the Caribbean)

I'd probably go to the Caribbean above this. The problem is that these schools aren't necessarily set up to teach to the American model and prep you for the boards like the Caribb schools are. Also, some states require you to do clinicals in the same country and your pre-clinical years in order to get a license (ie CA). I'm not sure if the one year with NYMC would count as clinical and make it so you couldn't be licensed in this state. Also, I'm pretty sure to residency programs, you're still an FMG, and not only that, you're one in a program they are completely unfamiliar with, and probably will be for the next 10-15 years or so. I'd personally try to go US MD and US DO before exploring foreign options, and if you do decide on the FMG ... go to one of the big 3 in the Caribbean. I mean, I get it if you have family in China, etc, but I'd still stick with the above options. I wonder if this is something Touro planned now that they are in change of NYMC???

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

depends..
do you want to actually live in china?
and then you'll have to compete for a IM residency because FMG's usually cant get better residency?

 

[hapaballer]

JaggerPlate: Wow, can't believe I got a response so quickly. Thanks! The people that I have been talking to from the program say that the school is certified by the Medical Board of California and is on IMED. And after graduation, we would be able to sit for the USMLE. They are also offering a

And I was looking on NYMCs website and they already have the Fifth Pathway Program, which is set up to help FMGs that are also US citizens.

I would totally be looking into US MD/DO schools if I had the qualifications, but to have this opportunity kind of thrown in front of me is really tempting.


PS: No clue who Touro is lol.

 

[zidrem]

I don't think you want to live in Shenyang - horrible air pollution and it is -14 degrees there right now...

 

[hapaballer]

Yea, the weather isn't something I like - especially being born and raised in SoCal. One thing that is appealing to me though is that I would learn more Chinese. I'm half Chinese and a little conversational in Mandarin, but after 4 years, I would for sure be fluent and with China being such a growing economy with like 1/5 people in the world being Chinese, I think it'd be super helpful to be bi-lingual.

I can suffer for four years in pollution/cold if the pay-off is worth it. But that's what I am debating over right now- is the pay-off worth it.

NYMC seems to be a really reputable school and if I was able to get a letter of rec from a physician there, it would seem like it would help my chances of getting matched.

 

[hapaballer]

PS I'm getting all my info from their website, www.bethhealth.com, the NYMC website and from information that I am getting when i call into their offices.

This is why I needed a third-party's opinion and this forum seems to be full of people that know what theyre talking about. So honestly, the more responses I get the better for me because there has been a massive debate going on in my mind for the past week. 😳

 

[WNT Signaling]

And I was looking on NYMCs website and they already have the Fifth Pathway Program, which is set up to help FMGs that are also US citizens.

from the AMA website:
As of June 30, 2009, through action of the AMA Council on Medical Education (CME Report 1-I-07), the Fifth Pathway will be discontinued. The Council will no longer support the Fifth Pathway as a mechanism for eligibility to enter the first year of ACGME-accredited graduate medical education programs.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/ama-councils/council-medical-education/topics/the-fifth-pathway-program.shtml

 

[zidrem]

Okay that china website could not be more dubious and suspicious looking. Obviously don't do it. Their contact email is [email protected]... lol it's so sketch. I wouldn't trust it.... Even if it is legit, consider that you will be getting an "undergraduate" MBBS degree, not an MD, which will make you eligible to sit for USMLE exams, but will certainly confuzzle some employers and some of your patients. I just wouldn't trust a degree program from China - China knows that foreigners are rich, and these schools are just taking advantage of that with these "English" programs. Stay away!

And you think you would be okay with Shenyang, but it is a dirty ****ty place trust me. Unless you are one of those dirty/extremely adventurous types, it is nothing short of hell-on-earth for an american. Any carrib school or DO school would be a better option. If you want to learn Chinese, just learn it yourself or take a year off and move there or something (I taught it to myself to fluency and I am moving there when I graduate). Don't sell off 4 years of yours life and the opportunity to get a much more reputable degree...

 

[Hoody]

and then you'll have to compete for a IM residency because FMG's usually cant get better residency?

Why do people keep saying this? 😕

Search physicians from several top programs/hospitals and you will see that MANY FMGs in all different specialties, including the most coveted ones. Its all what you make of it.....not where you get your degree.

 

[dingyibvs]

This isn't a new thing, people have been doing this for many years. I'm Chinese myself and I've read of many stories of Chinese kids(oftentimes born in the U.S.) going to China to attend med school immediately following HS graduation. Matching will be more difficult, of course, but USMLE scores aren't that big of an issue from what I hear--the Chinese have perfected the art of test prep.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why do people keep saying this? 😕

Search physicians from several top programs/hospitals and you will see that MANY FMGs in all different specialties, including the most coveted ones. Its all what you make of it.....not where you get your degree.

These are guys who went to the Caribbean a long time ago when there were more residency spots available because there were less medical students. Now with increased MD class sizes, DO schools opening up quickly (with half their students matching to ACGME) ... FMGs are getting hit and will continue to. The AAMC posted data last year that said only 48% of FMGs landed a residency.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Okay that china website could not be more dubious and suspicious looking. Obviously don't do it. Their contact email is [email protected]... lol it's so sketch. I wouldn't trust it.... Even if it is legit, consider that you will be getting an "undergraduate" MBBS degree, not an MD, which will make you eligible to sit for USMLE exams, but will certainly confuzzle some employers and some of your patients. I just wouldn't trust a degree program from China - China knows that foreigners are rich, and these schools are just taking advantage of that with these "English" programs. Stay away!

And you think you would be okay with Shenyang, but it is a dirty ****ty place trust me. Unless you are one of those dirty/extremely adventurous types, it is nothing short of hell-on-earth for an american. Any carrib school or DO school would be a better option. If you want to learn Chinese, just learn it yourself or take a year off and move there or something (I taught it to myself to fluency and I am moving there when I graduate). Don't sell off 4 years of yours life and the opportunity to get a much more reputable degree...

Holy crap that email cracks me up. They also have a .com and not a .edu like the infamous Stewart University (#1 in medical education) used to have.

 

[Hoody]

These are guys who went to the Caribbean a long time ago when there were more residency spots available because there were less medical students. Now with increased MD class sizes, DO schools opening up quickly (with half their students matching to ACGME) ... FMGs are getting hit and will continue to. The AAMC posted data last year that said only 48% of FMGs landed a residency.

Not. I'm talking about grads from all sorts of places...India, Europe, South Africa, Mexico, etc.

What does that have to do with landing a residency outside of PC/IM? Obviously going FMG may make things a little tougher and/or more complicated, but that doesn't change the fact that there are several FMGs working in coveted specialties at all the big places. Like I said...there is more emphasis on how you do vs. where you go....

If you don't believe me, search yourself. Start here.

 

[JaggerPlate]

What does that have to do with landing a residency outside of PC/IM? Obviously going FMG may make things a little tougher and/or more complicated, but that doesn't change the fact that there are several FMGs working in coveted specialties at all the big places?

If you don't believe me, search yourself.

What do you mean what does it have to do with landing a residency??? If FMGs are bottom of the pecking order, which I'm sorry, most people on the site completely agree that they are and US MD programs go US MD > US DO > FMG, and there are more US MD and US DO grads every year ... this causes a problem. How is 52% not matching not a problem?????????????????? Sure there are some people who are decent at hospitals or whatever, but this doesn't change the data.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ugh god ... you keep editing the post after I responded to it, then gave me a link to a directory at Mayo ... I literally cannot respond to this, but I'm right.

 

[Hoody]

What do you mean what does it have to do with landing a residency??? If FMGs are bottom of the pecking order, which I'm sorry, most people on the site completely agree that they are and US MD programs go US MD > US DO > FMG, and there are more US MD and US DO grads every year ... this causes a problem. How is 52% not matching not a problem?????????????????? Sure there are some people who are decent at hospitals or whatever, but this doesn't change the data.

I think you're side railing this argument. I was arguing that simply because you are a FMG does NOT mean you can ONLY be PC/IM. You are arguing that matching is harder.....which I said it was. I wouldn't consider all FMGs "bottom of the pecking order" simply because they are FMGs. A lot more goes into matching than where you got your degree....but thats already been said before too.

 

[Hoody]

Ugh god ... you keep editing the post after I responded to it, then gave me a link to a directory at Mayo ... I literally cannot respond to this, but I'm right.

Right about what? Right that it is harder to match as a FMG? We weren't arguing that. Or at least I wasn't.


I think you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. 👎


My link to Mayo was to prove my point that there are several FMGs there working in coveted specialist (at top notch places to boot)....like Anesthesiology, Ortho, etc....which was all to prove my point that FMG doesn't necessarily mean only PC/IM.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I couldn't see the links because it just routed me to one big directory and trust me ... I'm not an arguing type. The thing about it being harder to match in general actually does correlate to your point ... the harder it is to match, usually means you are going to be pushed into less competitive specialties, like PCP fields. The guys who do ortho, gas, etc, usually had to try to match several times, or did tons of research at institutions in the US in the interim, OR matched a long time ago, like I said, when there were more spots so it was easier to match as an FMG. I'm not saying anything controversial and my point about less people matching directly correlates to more FMGs ended up in less competitive PC fields. Also, as I said, I don't like arguing ... so I'm done responding.

 

[Hoody]

I couldn't see the links because it just routed me to one big directory and trust me ...

I'll trust that you're far too lazy to search yourself....

I'm not an arguing type.

😆😆😆

The thing about it being harder to match in general actually does correlate to your point ... the harder it is to match, usually means you are going to be pushed into less competitive specialties, like PCP fields. The guys who do ortho, gas, etc, usually had to try to match several times, or did tons of research at institutions in the US in the interim, OR matched a long time ago, like I said, when there were more spots so it was easier to match as an FMG

Or maybe they did really well in school, on the boards, had convincing reasons to match... novel idea's, I know.

I'm not saying anything controversial and my point about less people matching directly correlates to more FMGs ended up in less competitive PC fields.

Did I say you were saying something controversial? I said you were making an argument out of nothing. No one is arguing what you are saying...which STILL has nothing to do with the point....and the point is that FMG =/= automatic PC. again...

I don't like arguing ...

😆😆😆

I'm done responding.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Why do people keep saying this? 😕

Search physicians from several top programs/hospitals and you will see that MANY FMGs in all different specialties, including the most coveted ones. Its all what you make of it.....not where you get your degree.

Not all FMG's are created the same: there is a big difference from being an American who went to SGU and being a German citizen who went to Heidelberg. I have met many, many FMG physicians at major research hospitals in the US, but they were all foreign-born and foreign-trained physicians; none of them were US citizens who trained in another country. So if you are at the top of your class at the Karolinska Institute, then there is no reason why top programs in the United States wouldn't be interested in you. Conversely, if you were an American who had to resort to going to the Caribbean, then that says that you did not have the grades or the smarts to get into a US school, and that you are probably not the best and brightest.

 

[Hoody]

Not all FMG's are created the same: there is a big difference from being an American who went to SGU and being a German citizen who went to Heidelberg. I have met many, many FMG physicians at major research hospitals in the US, but they were all foreign-born and foreign-trained physicians; none of them were US citizens who trained in another country. So if you are at the top of your class at the Karolinska Institute, then there is no reason why top programs in the United States wouldn't be interested in you.

What's your point here? I'm arguing that FMG =/= automatic PC. What are you arguing?

Conversely, if you were an American who had to resort to going to the Caribbean, then that says that you did not have the grades or the smarts to get into a US school, and that you are probably not the best and brightest.

Still possible to get into a coveted specialty even though you attended Ross University.

NO WAY!!!!11!!!111!!!!! I demand a recount!!!! 😱😱


Gee....I wonder if its more about what you do then where you go?

 

[whimsical]

Even if it is legit, consider that you will be getting an "undergraduate" MBBS degree, not an MD, which will make you eligible to sit for USMLE exams, but will certainly confuzzle some employers and some of your patients. I just wouldn't trust a degree program from China.

I'm pretty sure people who come from countries that use the MBBS degree just say MD for the sake of not confusing people...

 

[Hoody]

I'm pretty sure people who come from countries that use the MBBS degree just say MD for the sake of not confusing people...

What makes you say this? They are DOCTORS and they address themselves as DOCTORS. So much logic in this thread its crazy!

How many Doctors do you know that say, "Hello, I am Dr. Smith, M.D," or "Hello, I am Dr. Jones, D.O.". I haven't heard anyone saying, "Hi, I am Dr. Anderson, MBBS." Have you?


Good thing you're "pretty sure" about this one....

 

[JaggerPlate]

never mind ... don't care.

 

[Hoody]

http://www.vitals.com/doctor/profile/1881677151

He completed the majority/possible all of an IM residency (PC field) before moving in Anesthesiology.

The program where he did his residency, starts Gas year 1

http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/anesres-jax.html

aka, he matched into a PC field, completed most of the residency, then reapplied/transferred ... keep going Hoody!

at the end of the day he matched into a coveted specialty after attended Ross University no? Yeah....that's what I thought. Furthermore, he was one page ONE of the A's. Do you want me to go through the rest of the directory to find you another one?

You can go back to the post where I said that you are right in the fact that it may be more complicated than the "traditional" route....but in the end, its still freaking possible and again, in the end, FMG or Ross University =/= automatic PC/IM. You still have yet to prove that it does....but then again you weren't arguing that it does, but rather arguing something with me that I wasn't even arguing in the first place. hmmm....back to logic!

so I'm done responding.

I knew it was

 

[WNT Signaling]

What's your point here? I'm arguing that FMG =/= automatic PC. What are you arguing?

Still possible to get into a coveted specialty even though you attended Ross University.

NO WAY!!!!11!!!111!!!!! I demand a recount!!!! 😱😱


Gee....I wonder if its more about what you do then where you go?

The point is that not all FMGs end-up in PC, but when you look at one of the cohorts (Americans who are trained abroad), they tend to end-up in PC more often than not. For example, let's compare Ross with Tufts

Anes: R11 T10
Derm: R0 T2
ENT: R0 T2
Ophth: R0 T1
Ortho: R2 T5
Rads: R13 T12
Urology: R0 T3

Family Medicine: R118 T7
Psych: R20 T3

Also remember that Ross's list is self-reporting . . .
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/documents/2009ResidencyList.pdf
http://www.tufts.edu/med/medissue/current_issue/MatchList09.pdf

 

[Evergrey]

Deleted post, decided it was off-topic and would encourage others to do the same 🙂

To the OP, that program seems way sketch!

 

[JaggerPlate]

Hoody,
I removed that part because a. I'm not sure I got it right because of how fast I pulled the info up (he may have actually matched into gas the right way, I think the years don't add up otherwise, but I couldn't find any info to prove it wrong) b. for someone who bashed me for just 'wanting to argue,' I have never seen someone argue so vehemently in my life. c. Here is the issue: you are saying that you can land a successful residency (ROADS, however you want to put it), after Ross. I am saying that anything can happen. I could win the lottery tomorrow. However, it is statistically more difficult for people from the Caribbean to land these residencies and the ones that do normally had to jump through a lot of hoops first, or matched in the past when there were a lot more spots (which is the point you keep mistaking for me being off the argument). We're not even arguing different points here. Is it possible? Sure, anything is. Is it probable/as simple as a US MD or DO ... absolutely not.

 

[Hoody]

The point is that not all FMGs end-up in PChttp://www.tufts.edu/med/medissue/current_issue/MatchList09.pdf

Thank You! This is all I was trying to say....pretty simple. 🙂

Obviously there are going to be some other politics going on....but what part of medicine is immune to politics.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Thank You! This is all I was trying to say....pretty simple. 🙂

Obviously there are going to be some other politics going on....but what part of medicine is immune to politics.

Hahaha, bullying, stretching/bending facts, making non sequitur statements, then coming to a blunt conclusion and putting on a smile ... you went into the wrong profession. Shoulda been a lawyer ...

 

[Hoody]

Hahaha, bullying, stretching/bending facts, making non sequitur statements, then coming to a blunt conclusion and putting on a smile ... you went into the wrong profession.

Yes, stating that FMG/Carrib =/= automatic PC is stretching/bending the facts. Back to logic are we?

Someone insinuated that FMG = automatic PC. I responded that it did not and that people should stop posting this. I guess I'm missing why this is soooo difficult for you to understand and why I had to post 10 times to clairify that despite all the jibberish that you keep adding to my point, my point is SIMPLY that FMG =/= automatic PC. Can we say whoosh much?

Shoulda been a lawyer ...

Successful UT-Austin applicant here. 👍




you on the other hand, should definitely not be a lawyer. And I see that you are still posting eh?

 

[Evergrey]

FMG/Carrib =/= automatic PC

I am just a hapless bystander but after closely reviewing the thread I do believe that no one ever said anything to the contrary, but only that being a FMG makes your match situation considerably more precarious. I only saw the qualifier "usually" used, which is not an absolute statement by any means.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Successful UT-Austin applicant here. 👍

Forrrr law school? Because your MD apps says you aren't applying Med until 2011.

you on the other hand, should definitely not be a lawyer. And I see that you are still posting eh?

'I have not yet begun to define myself ...'

 

[Hoody]

Forrrr law school? Because your MD apps says you aren't applying Med until 2011.

yeah. for law. but it costs too much monies. 🙁

 

[Hoody]

I am just a hapless bystander but after closely reviewing the thread I do believe that no one ever said anything to the contrary, but only that being a FMG makes your match situation considerably more precarious.

you're missing the point that that wasn't the point. Obviously its more precarious. The point is that it isn't impossible or that a certain degree doesn't carry an automatic determination of specialty.


sigh.

 

[JaggerPlate]

yeah. for law. but it costs too much monies. 🙁

Eh, you don't want to go into law. I know a few people that just graduated and are really having a hard time/starting salaries are really low and don't move up fast enough. They said part of the problem is that law schools open up really fast and the big name ones get the best results even though they might not be too much better than one that isn't quite as know. Too many people doing it, it seems like. Oh well ... you'll probably be happier in med. Are you applying MD and DO ?

 

[Hoody]

Are you applying MD and DO ?

Yeah. I have no bias for either since I work with both MDs and Dos and find them equally amazing 😍. I know its going to be a lot of hard work either way. I find that human touch "heals" my patients in a lot of ways tho...so I am one of those that's actually genuinely interested in osteo. I've got to update my mdapps....bumped my gpas a bit after this last semester 😎.


Law is my back up. And I did apply to the UT-Austin eMBA program.....was not successful there.

 

[Evergrey]

you're missing the point that that wasn't the point. Obviously its more precarious. The point is that it isn't impossible or that a certain degree doesn't carry an automatic determination of specialty.


sigh.

Well, you're missing the point that missing the point wasn't the point that he was missing the point that she was making. errr... screw it. who cares 🙂

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah. I have no bias for either since I work with both MDs and Dos and find them equally amazing 😍. I know its going to be a lot of hard work either way. I find that human touch "heals" my patients in a lot of ways tho...so I am one of those that's actually genuinely interested in osteo. I've got to update my mdapps....bumped my gpas a bit after this last semester 😎.


Law is my back up. And I did apply to the UT-Austin eMBA program.....was not successful there.

Good stuff. 👍

Also, there are technically MD/JD and DO/JD and MD/MBA or MHA and DO/MBA or MHA programs out there if you still have a passion for law/biz while in med school.

 

[Evergrey]

Yeah. I have no bias for either since I work with both MDs and Dos and find them equally amazing 😍.

OMM sounds really interesting to me but I know little about it. Hopefully someday I will have the opportunity to learn more about it, preferably firsthand. I shadowed a cardiologist twice who was a DO, and he definitely never even mentioned the OMM stuff or the "holistic" approach. I do agree that people make a big difference over the distinction between DO and MD!

 

[Hoody]

MD/JD and DO/JD

😍😍😍

 

[JaggerPlate]

OMM sounds really interesting to me but I know little about it. Hopefully someday I will have the opportunity to learn more about it, preferably firsthand. I shadowed a cardiologist twice who was a DO, and he definitely never even mentioned the OMM stuff or the "holistic" approach. I do agree that people make a big difference over the distinction between DO and MD!

Too few docs use OMM. It's an interesting thing. I'm just a pre-med, but I'm attending a DO school next year, and a lot of people have an issue with OMM because a. it's doable to learn, but really hard to master (from what I can tell) b. there isn't a ton of conclusive data out there on it (except the New England Journal of Med did an article and found it worked for a lot of back stuff) and c. there is a lot of hit or miss with techniques, meaning that some are easy to see how they work and are kind of undeniable and others are pretty far fetched, and I think the far fetched ones turn some people off OMM. I've attended some seminars on it, and find it fascinating. I know this probably sounds stereotypical, but I'm really eager to learn it and would love to incorporate it into my practice! However, it's more applicable to certain fields than others ... I don't think too many people use it in cards. However, the great thing about DO is that even if you hate OMM, you do your time learning it/study it for the COMLEX boards, then forget it and practice just like every other MD.

 

[JaggerPlate]

😍😍😍

UMDNJ has a dual program with Rutgers University, I believe, which are some pretty big names combined! A lot of work, but if you want both, would be the way to do it I guess!

 

[JaggerPlate]

man this thread is officially hijacked!!

 

[whimsical]

What makes you say this? They are DOCTORS and they address themselves as DOCTORS. So much logic in this thread its crazy!

How many Doctors do you know that say, "Hello, I am Dr. Smith, M.D," or "Hello, I am Dr. Jones, D.O.". I haven't heard anyone saying, "Hi, I am Dr. Anderson, MBBS." Have you?


Good thing you're "pretty sure" about this one....

I don't mean say, I mean, if it's written somewhere. You know, like a directory?

I am sure because my parents have them, and if it's on a badge, listed in a directory, etc... it says MD. I'm responding to someone's concern that it may confuse patients. The answer is that it will not.

Take the attitude elsewhere, seriously. No need to treat someone like an idiot when you barely know them. People on this site are so irritating sometimes.

 

[Evergrey]

man this thread is officially hijacked!!

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't mean say, I mean, if it's written somewhere. You know, like a directory?

I am pretty sure because my parents have them, and if it's on a badge it says MD.

Take the attitude elsewhere, seriously. No need to treat someone like an idiot when you barely know them.

We turned it into a nice thread now ... only peace allowed!

 

[whimsical]

We turned it into a nice thread now ... only peace allowed!

I'm up for that, I'm pro-peace all around. 🙂 Plus it's not like I have a problem with you.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm up for that, I'm pro-peace all around. 🙂 Plus it's not like I have a problem with you.

👍