New Do School!!!

[ragda26]

COCA Meeting This Weekend
The AOA Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), under the leadership of James M. Lally, DO, MMM, Chair, will also be meeting this weekend back in Chicago (12/3-4/05). The major items on the agenda are the pre-accreditation site visits from three new prospective schools: Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine, New York (Harlem), NY; Lincoln Memorial University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Harrogate, TN; and AT Still University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine, Mesa, AZ. COCA members also reviewed progress reports and substantive changes, heard annual report review follow-up presentations and discussed various policy issues. The next COCA meeting is schedule for 4/29-30/06 in Chicago.


SO A NEW SCHOOL IS COMING TO TN, CALLED: Lincoln Memorial University College of Osteopathic Medicine!!!!!!!!!

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[HunterGatherer]

another DO school in NY. Yes!!

where's the link?

 

[-Goose-]

Harrogate? WTF!?!

incorporated in 1992. population estimated at 3,974...

uhh... where are they going to get the patients from?


I'm sorry, but this is really getting absurd.

not trying to flame; just giving my honest opinion...

 

[ragda26]

hey

i guess the one in TN is because of lack of rural physicians. I think like WVSOM and VCOM, they fill a critical need of physicians in such desolate areas.

as per the link:

www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/

 

[dr.z]

Harrogate? WTF!?!

incorporated in 1992. population estimated at 3,974...

uhh... where are they going to get the patients from?

Is there any major city near it?

 

[ragda26]

hey

i am sure they did their research before proposing to start a new school....

 

[-Goose-]

hey

i guess the one in TN is because of lack of rural physicians. I think like WVSOM and VCOM, they fill a critical need of physicians in such desolate areas.

as per the link:

www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/

while thats a noble goal, problem with that is there is already a school (ETSU)in tennessee (relatively close to, um, harrogate) whose mission is to educate PCPs, "particularly those interested in serving rural communities."

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Touro is popping up everywhere. Talk about wise businessmen. I thought the AOA stopped satelite campuses from opening? Maybe this is the last year.

 

[ragda26]

hey

where did u hear abt ESTU? I never heard of that one before?

any links?
thanks....i am just curious to know abt it...

 

[Fermata]

There needs to be stronger requirements for the opening up of new schools.

Besides, this is completely ******ed until there is a push for the opening of more osteopathic residency slots.

 

[-Goose-]

Is there any major city near it?

I don't think so... it really depends on what you call 'near'... its probably closest to knoxville... but UT-MEM has a solid grip on all those rotation sites.

its also fairly 'close' to ETSU, but again, a well-established and respected school is already serving that area...

VCOM (blacksburg) isn't too far off and I'm not sure where pikeville is, but I think its not far either.

why not start a school in wyoming, montana, idaho (ie migrant workers-- great opportunity there) or one of the dakotas? talk about underserved... one of the larger 'cities' in these states could surely use the increased access to health care..

my point is i think the coca, or whatever, should have some better foresight when planning these 'pop-up' schools (imHo)... it seems they are granting 'provisional' accreditation to any school that shows the desire and any inkling of feasibility.

anyone know of a school proposal that was denied recently?

just a random thought...

 

[-Goose-]

Besides, this is completely ******ed until there is a push for the opening of more osteopathic residency slots.

amen...
.

 

[-Goose-]

hey

where did u hear abt ESTU? I never heard of that one before?

any links?
thanks....i am just curious to know abt it...

?
ETSU is an established allopathic school in Johnson city.

www.etsu.edu

 

[DrBowtie]

There needs to be stronger requirements for the opening up of new schools.

Besides, this is completely ******ed until there is a push for the opening of more osteopathic residency slots.

Agree.

 

[Doc 2b]

LMU is going to be doing rotations through Bradley Memorial right outside of Chattanooga in southeast tennessee and at St. Mary (or st. something in Knoxville). This is per the dean. While I'm a HUGE supporter of responsible growth at least LMU is getting its own accredidation, unlike Touro NY and PCOM Atl, etc etc. I believe, it still not sustainable, something is going to break. I bet by the end of our careers there will be one governing body regulating all medical education, hopefully sooner.

 

[Fermata]

LMU is going to be doing rotations through Bradley Memorial right outside of Chattanooga in southeast tennessee and at St. Mary (or st. something in Knoxville). This is per the dean. While I'm a HUGE supporter of responsible growth at least LMU is getting its own accredidation, unlike Touro NY and PCOM Atl, etc etc. I believe, it still not sustainable, something is going to break. I bet by the end of our careers there will be one governing body regulating all medical education, hopefully sooner.

This is probably more true than most realize.

This greed for money is getting to the point of laugability.

Why not just have DO's take the USMLE and then maybe an extra exam for OMM?

Why not create more quality rotations for DO's to rotate through?

Why not create public DO schools in states that need them in the midwest?

 

[DblHelix]

So is this a good thing or a bad thing? I mean it may be good because it increases the number of physicians but if we don't increase the number of residency spots then what's the point of having more people with DOs at the end of their name?

 

[ragda26]

i think they r still in the process of granting accredition to them. it might be a good thing for new small colleges to open because it might sortof Force them to expand GME programs!!!

anyways, i did not mean to open the thread to say that this is good or bad. i just wanted to share the info around.

 

[-Goose-]

So is this a good thing or a bad thing? I mean it may be good because it increases the number of physicians but if we don't increase the number of residency spots then what's the point of having more people with DOs at the end of their name?

i agree. its totally irresponsible.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

So is this a good thing or a bad thing? I mean it may be good because it increases the number of physicians but if we don't increase the number of residency spots then what's the point of having more people with DOs at the end of their name?

Saturation is never a good thing.

 

[ragda26]

with this,

basically no more IMGs will be able to fill in spots.

there will be enough US grads to fulfil everything...is that what it means?

 

[MSc44]

any idea of a date when Toro in NY will open

 

[ragda26]

AAMC expanding dramatically as well...

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2005/051106.htm

AAMC president says many MD schools have increased enrollment by 20%-30% as well...

 

[ragda26]

Read this from AAMC: I guess it makes sense why AOA is expanding quickly...it helps everyone in US!



To be specific, about 2,700 are graduates of osteopathic medical schools, some 1,300 are U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, largely in the Caribbean, and well over 4,500 are non-U.S. citizens who attended a wide variety of schools abroad.

As you may know, all the other suppliers of U.S. physicians-the osteopathic schools, the for-profit offshore schools, and many other foreign schools-also see a U.S. doctor shortage on the horizon, and they are rapidly expanding their capacity even as we speak. Five new osteopathic schools have opened in the past 10 years and several more are on the drawing board.

Even more arresting, no fewer than 15 off-shore schools have opened their doors over the same 10-year period and those already in existence are increasing their capacity dramatically. India, and perhaps other foreign countries, see a lucrative export market for physicians and are cranking up their already sizable medical education apparatus.

Hence, if current projections prove accurate-that our health care system will demand and be able to assimilate many more doctors over the next few decades-we could be facing an unwelcomed reality. When considered against the far more dramatic expansion occurring in the non-LCME world, our modest expansion plans could result in our corner of the medical profession becoming a minority presence.

Is this a cause for concern? I certainly think it is. To think otherwise would imply that ACGME training provides graduates of non-LCME schools with all the benefits our students obtain as undergraduates-that by the time residents finish their training, any differences that existed on entry to GME are no longer evident. I just don't believe that.

I think our model of undergraduate medical education offers the public something of special value-that it equips our students with a set of critically important, foundational capabilities and attitudes that the current format of GME does not and cannot provide.

Even if you think otherwise, consider the ethical questions raised by our reliance on foreign schools to educate so many of our country's doctors. Can we, in good conscience, continue to recruit so many highly educated professionals from developing countries who clearly need them much more than we do?

 

[DrBowtie]

To be specific, about 2,700 are graduates of osteopathic medical schools, some 1,300 are U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, largely in the Caribbean, and well over 4,500 are non-U.S. citizens who attended a wide variety of schools abroad.

Will this be enough? Is 15 percent the right number? Who knows? What we do know is that a 15 percent increase in our graduates will add only about 2500 new MDs to the workforce each year, and only after many years in the pipeline, at that.



This will put pressure on the residency programs to accept more US MD students since they don't want them to go without jobs. This will displace those osteo grads.

AOA needs more residency spots to compensate for this or else going to an american school won't guarentee you an american residency.

 

[-Goose-]

ragda,

i see your point, but should the answer be to open as many new DO schools as possible without very high standards (which most would agree these new schools lack) and have a scenario much like us medical education in the late 19th c. (ie basically anyone who wants to come can)?

i'm not against the idea of expansion, but i think its important to expand RESPONSIBLY.... for DO schools, i think that means expanding DO residency positions and going through strict accreditation processes... its just ridiculous how fast these schools are being 'thrown up' and 'accredited by the AOA while GME DO spots dwindle or remain the same.

I think the whole system needs to be reworked to increase the # of pcps in the US (ie addt'l government subsidation for primary care specialists... maybe tax breaks or an outright salary boost)... this would encourage more qualified grads (do or md) to enter pcp residencies.

whoa. a little of tangent, but do you catch my drift?

 

[ragda26]

you are absolutely correct

thats why in this months JAOA, many people have asked the AOA to increase GME programs fast!!!

READ THIS:

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/105/10/441

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/105/10/443-a

 

[Pharos]

There needs to be stronger requirements for the opening up of new schools.

Besides, this is completely ******ed until there is a push for the opening of more osteopathic residency slots.

I'm not sure this is necessarily true. I was under the impression that there aren't many people who don't match. It seems that the allopathic system has had enough slots to accomodate US MD, DO, and foreign grads. As long as the slots are out there - does it matter whether they are osteo or allo slots?

 

[BMW19]

I think some of you need to relax. What is the big deal about opening a few more DO schools? There are what, over a hundred allopathic schools? And there is still a physician shortage in a lot of places. As far as osteopathic residency slots, the majority of my class seems as if they will all take the USMLE and apply for allopathic residencies anyway so what is the big deal? I think it is good for the profession to have more graduates and we will finally be well accepted if we can get enough of us out there. My school is attached to one of the finest DO schools in the country so what is the problem.

BMW-

To be specific, about 2,700 are graduates of osteopathic medical schools, some 1,300 are U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, largely in the Caribbean, and well over 4,500 are non-U.S. citizens who attended a wide variety of schools abroad.

Will this be enough? Is 15 percent the right number? Who knows? What we do know is that a 15 percent increase in our graduates will add only about 2500 new MDs to the workforce each year, and only after many years in the pipeline, at that.



This will put pressure on the residency programs to accept more US MD students since they don't want them to go without jobs. This will displace those osteo grads.

AOA needs more residency spots to compensate for this or else going to an american school won't guarentee you an american residency.

 

[-Goose-]

This will put pressure on the residency programs to accept more US MD students since they don't want them to go without jobs. This will displace those osteo grads.

AOA needs more residency spots to compensate for this or else going to an american school won't guarentee you an american residency.

great post BB.

i don't think its the opening of these schools that will necessarily lead to a situation like this, its just that this is the general direction the AOA seems to be leading towards.

 

[DrBowtie]

I'm not sure this is necessarily true. I was under the impression that there aren't many people who don't match. It seems that the allopathic system has had enough slots to accomodate US MD, DO, and foreign grads. As long as the slots are out there - does it matter whether they are osteo or allo slots?

While this true NOW, after 2500 new US MD's and the addition of classes from numerous DO schools, this won't always be the case.

That is unless the Caribbean schools are effectively shut out from the spots that traditionally go to them.

 

[ragda26]

I think some of you need to relax. What is the big deal about opening a few more DO schools? There are what, over a hundred allopathic schools? And there is still a physician shortage in a lot of places. As far as osteopathic residency slots, the majority of my class seems as if they will all take the USMLE and apply for allopathic residencies anyway so what is the big deal? I think it is good for the profession to have more graduates and we will finally be well accepted if we can get enough of us out there. My school is attached to one of the finest DO schools in the country so what is the problem.

BMW-

i agree with you totally....its good that these few schools are coming up!!

 

[Pharos]

While this true NOW, after 2500 new US MD's and the addition of classes from numerous DO schools, this won't always be the case.

That is unless the Caribbean schools are effectively shut out from the spots that traditionally go to them.

Yeah, I suppose it's hard to read the future. Everything is in a huge state of flux right now. I guess time will eventually tell.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

There will be a total of 30 DO schools by 2010 or 2012 forgot which number I heard...(from th ehorses mouth at the AOA convention in Orlando).

I think its great for our profession and I am not at all concerned about the lack of residenciy spots - everyone will fit in somewhere, whether it is your first choice or your last choice, you'll get in somewhere.

This is the land of opportunity and I love it!

 

[DODO]

ragda,

i see your point, but should the answer be to open as many new DO schools as possible without very high standards (which most would agree these new schools lack) and have a scenario much like us medical education in the late 19th c. (ie basically anyone who wants to come can)?

i'm not against the idea of expansion, but i think its important to expand RESPONSIBLY.... for DO schools, i think that means expanding DO residency positions and going through strict accreditation processes... its just ridiculous how fast these schools are being 'thrown up' and 'accredited by the AOA while GME DO spots dwindle or remain the same.

I totally agree with you. They need to maintain high if not higher standards within these newer schools. Eventhough there is a shortage, I don't believe the best response is to increase the quantity and let the quality decrease. Saturation is never too good...

 

[ragda26]

ragda,

i see your point, but should the answer be to open as many new DO schools as possible without very high standards (which most would agree these new schools lack) and have a scenario much like us medical education in the late 19th c. (ie basically anyone who wants to come can)?

i'm not against the idea of expansion, but i think its important to expand RESPONSIBLY.... for DO schools, i think that means expanding DO residency positions and going through strict accreditation processes... its just ridiculous how fast these schools are being 'thrown up' and 'accredited by the AOA while GME DO spots dwindle or remain the same.

I think the whole system needs to be reworked to increase the # of pcps in the US (ie addt'l government subsidation for primary care specialists... maybe tax breaks or an outright salary boost)... this would encourage more qualified grads (do or md) to enter pcp residencies.

whoa. a little of tangent, but do you catch my drift?

hey goose-d

i agree with you as well abt the standards. i see your point very well.
the new schools have come up fast but i guess this is the time the profession is experienceing max growth...i also see your point abt GME programs.

i think BMW19 makes a good point as well.

everyone here has made valid points.

its just a nice discussison. i am sure AOA will work to improve GME and undergrad experience as well.

 

[dr.z]

why not start a school in wyoming, montana, idaho (ie migrant workers-- great opportunity there) or one of the dakotas? talk about underserved... one of the larger 'cities' in these states could surely use the increased access to health care.

I agree. I think they should put schools were there are no other medical schools so they can help underserved population.

 

[ragda26]

hey

i think thats exactly what they have been doing! and it is working well.

 

[futuredo32]

It's a noble idea to open medical schools in underserved areas, but what guarantee is there that the students will practice in these areas after graduating?
There are already more graduating osteopathic students than there are osteopathic residency spots. The AOA should not have even considered opening more osteopathic schools before increasing the number or residencies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lindyhopper]

It's a disgrace that the US does not graduate enough physicians to meet our own needs. This results in draining the third world of their trained talent. While all new programs may go have some growing pains, I know of no fundamental complaint with the accreditation process.
MD, DO it doesn't matter. The US should be training more physicians.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Opening up in underserved areas doesn't necessarily mean those areas will be served once the students graduate. Maybe while they're students they can volunteer there and the schools can require that - but I'm sure the majority leave. I'm sure the Caribbean has a shortage of physicians too

 

[Lindyhopper]

While graduates are generally free practice where ever they want the infrastructure of a med school & faculty has to have a positive impact. More importantly, the competent education of more physicians is pretty much the single best thing for humanity.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

while thats a noble goal, problem with that is there is already a school (ETSU)in tennessee (relatively close to, um, harrogate) whose mission is to educate PCPs, "particularly those interested in serving rural communities."

yep, and we also already have wvsom, vcom and pcsom in that same area with that same goal. i don't know how needed rural physicians are, but just setting up training sites in rural areas isn't going to fix the problem. you have to give people tangible incentives to lure them to rural areas after they graduate. i also think training solely in a rural area creates some problems because you're not going to see much pathology.

at umdnj-som on friday, the dean spoke with us and said there would probably be 30 osteopathic schools within the next few years.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Touro is popping up everywhere. Talk about wise businessmen. I thought the AOA stopped satelite campuses from opening? Maybe this is the last year.

you know, my big problem with touro opening up news schools everywhere is that their original school is still pretty new. it only opened in what the mid-90s? they already have one satellite and now they're working on another. when ccom started azcom, it might sense because ccom had already been around 100 years. the same will be true with the new at still school, but touro?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

with this,

basically no more IMGs will be able to fill in spots.

there will be enough US grads to fulfil everything...is that what it means?

but, here's the question -- are do grads from these totally new, unestablished and likely very non-competitive schools going to beat out ross and sgu grads are residency spots? i can't say for sure that they will. at this point, the average numbers at sgu are already higher than the average numbers at some do schools. what are the numbers going to look like at these new schools? are they going to be taking sgu rejects?

i think the ease of setting up these new schools could possibly devalue having an american degree.

 

[The Virginian]

A few observations about LMUSOM...

Let's remember that the first two years of any med school are pure science. The subtle and possibly subjective differences are the engaging and entertaining nature of the professors, whether the program be SBL, PBL, or the next neuvo thing to come down the pike.

The third and fourth years can vary greatly. From reading a post above, it appears that LMU will be using St. Mary's in Knoxville, Tennessee for rotations. Knoxville is but 1 hour south of Harrogate and not a bad drive. Knoxville is rich in medical centers and no presence of medical schools in the immediate area. St. Mary's lists on it's site that it is a 506 bed facility in Knoxville and having other regional facilities. The size of this hospital is on par with many M.D. schools. It's quality and reputation are very good. Throw in Bradley Memorial in Cleveland, Tennessee, and clerkships should be more than adequately met.

ETSU is in Johnson City, two hours away. ETSU-QCOM primarily uses the VA Center, JCHMC, and the Wellmont hospitals in Kingsport and Bristol for training - all in upper east Tennessee. They do it that way because they like it and it works well for them and the community. Only in recent years have many of the graduates remained in the area. This may be because they have placed greater emphasis on accepting more students from their immediate area. They have also had 20+ years to develop good quality residency programs. Residency programs can be created fairly quickly, but reputation takes time and a lot of hard work.

PCSOM is 2 hours north and VCOM is 4 hours northeast of Harrogate.

An additional point for consideration is the Dean of LMUSOM, Dr. Stowers was instrumental in establishing and maintaining the rural health system (rural clinics) in Oklahoma. Tennessee has a mishmash of healthcare for most of the rural areas, plus TennCare is being terminated. It's not too difficult to see a possible plan developing when we consider that a majority of D.O.'s go into primary care. It's also easy to understand St. Mary's willingness to take on third and fourth year students for training. If you need a hint, think future referrals.

Residencies, or the lack thereof, as many of the OP have pointed out, call up the neverending question of whether the AOA should continue to exist as a separate entity.

 

[-Goose-]

From reading a post above, it appears that LMU will be using St. Mary's in Knoxville, Tennessee for rotations. Knoxville is but 1 hour south of Harrogate and not a bad drive. Knoxville is rich in medical centers and no presence of medical schools in the immediate area. St. Mary's lists on it's site that it is a 506 bed facility in Knoxville and having other regional facilities. The size of this hospital is on par with many M.D. schools. It's quality and reputation are very good. Throw in Bradley Memorial in Cleveland, Tennessee, and clerkships should be more than adequately met.

UT-Memphis has a dominating presence in knoxville as far as hospital... you can spend your entire 3rd and/or 4th year in Knoxville if you are a UT student.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I totally agree with you. They need to maintain high if not higher standards within these newer schools. Eventhough there is a shortage, I don't believe the best response is to increase the quantity and let the quality decrease. Saturation is never too good...

Nowhere would anyone say (or have I heard from anyone) that these new schools are substandard. Although I see your point ...

I do have a concern with residency spots although not the concern that most have. With the unfilled positions (yes most of them are family med for those of you would might look down on that or feel that "isn't right for you as a premed") I think there would be enough spots, my concern is the cut for CMS funding for the positions or redistribution for hospitals with those unfilled positions. As also commented on the do-online.com blog.

 

[mshheaddoc]

yep, and we also already have wvsom, vcom and pcsom in that same area with that same goal. i don't know how needed rural physicians are, but just setting up training sites in rural areas isn't going to fix the problem. you have to give people tangible incentives to lure them to rural areas after they graduate.

#1 - OSU-COM is another that focuses on rural medicine which also is representative by the in-state proportion of applicants. They can only hope they will return to their hometowns to practice. With the greater percentage (and focus on) PCP, it is part of the role that DO's play.

#2

i also think training solely in a rural area creates some problems because you're not going to see much pathology.

Although this is what you might expect, wait till you start rural rotations. I know someone who first hand experienced more variety in patients (include rare diseases that he was told he'd never see) in a rural setting than he has in his urban care.In a rural setting you have a wider area of patients (with less health care options available) and they need the same care that you would provide in any other hospital. I thought the same way, until I actually talked to people about it.

 

[The Virginian]

UT-Memphis has a dominating presence in knoxville as far as hospital... you can spend your entire 3rd and/or 4th year in Knoxville if you are a UT student.

I overlooked the obvious - UT Medical Center in Knoxville for 3rd & 4th year rotations.

MCV has recently started doing the same for 3rd & 4th years using INOVA in Fairfax, Virginia.