New Do School!!!

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exlawgrrl said:
you know, my big problem with touro opening up news schools everywhere is that their original school is still pretty new. it only opened in what the mid-90s? they already have one satellite and now they're working on another. when ccom started azcom, it might sense because ccom had already been around 100 years. the same will be true with the new at still school, but touro?
What is wrong with touro? 😕 Just because they haven't been around as long as KCOM or CCOM and they have brand new facilities, why aren't they competitive?

exlawgrrl said:
but, here's the question -- are do grads from these totally new, unestablished and likely very non-competitive schools going to beat out ross and sgu grads are residency spots? i can't say for sure that they will. at this point, the average numbers at sgu are already higher than the average numbers at some do schools. what are the numbers going to look like at these new schools? are they going to be taking sgu rejects?

i think the ease of setting up these new schools could possibly devalue having an american degree.
I disagree because they all still have to meet the same standards that all DO schools have to meet. All have to pass the COMLEX? Additionally I checked on touro - class of 2004 had 60 MD matchs and 46 DO matches and I believe their class has been growing every years (at least that is what the trend is). Showing that there was a class size of about 120 for class of 2008 and a 14% acceptance rate. Granted this is for the main campus but still ... no matched harvard that I could see but they matched none-the-less.
 
yeah as long as they've graduated more than 1 class and their curriculum is proven to work - I don't see it any different from Touro opening up vs. a school that's been around for decades. And it looks like TUCOM students do well on the boards because their CA match list is indeed impressive.
 
mshheaddoc said:
I disagree because they all still have to meet the same standards that all DO schools have to meet. All have to pass the COMLEX? Additionally I checked on touro - class of 2004 had 60 MD matchs and 46 DO matches and I believe their class has been growing every years (at least that is what the trend is). Showing that there was a class size of about 120 for class of 2008 and a 14% acceptance rate. Granted this is for the main campus but still ... no matched harvard that I could see but they matched none-the-less.

it's true that people do have to pass the comlex, and touro specifically seems to do well. however, touro's campuses are in desirable locations, so even though they're new, they attract high quality applicants. i don't think the same will necessarily be true with a new school in the middle of nowhere in tennessee. i'm also not convinced that grads of these new rural schools will do better than grads of the top caribbean schools in terms of residency placement. with the expansion of us md programs and growing do programs, i don't think we can assume that allopathic programs are going to necessarily pick all us grads over offshore grads, especially when schools like sgu are actually more competitive than some osteopathic programs.

i'm honestly concerned that the average mcat scores for do schools have decreased. this trend is only going to be ramped up as more schools are added.
 
exlawgrrl said:
it's true that people do have to pass the comlex, and touro specifically seems to do well. however, touro's campuses are in desirable locations, so even though they're new, they attract high quality applicants. i don't think the same will necessarily be true with a new school in the middle of nowhere in tennessee. i'm also not convinced that grads of these new rural schools will do better than grads of the top caribbean schools in terms of residency placement. with the expansion of us md programs and growing do programs, i don't think we can assume that allopathic programs are going to necessarily pick all us grads over offshore grads, especially when schools like sgu are actually more competitive than some osteopathic programs.

i'm honestly concerned that the average mcat scores for do schools have decreased. this trend is only going to be ramped up as more schools are added.


how is SGU more competitive with DO programs?

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/FirstTermEntrantsMed.htm

I think you are overly concerned with those factors. If anything MCAT scores have increased and I do have to say that I personally know a few people with sub-25 MCAT scores that are doing fine in med school and were accepted due to a high GPA. MCAT isn't everything especially for non-traditional students.
 
mshheaddoc said:
how is SGU more competitive with DO programs?

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/FirstTermEntrantsMed.htm

I think you are overly concerned with those factors. If anything MCAT scores have increased and I do have to say that I personally know a few people with sub-25 MCAT scores that are doing fine in med school and were accepted due to a high GPA. MCAT isn't everything especially for non-traditional students.

the average mcat at vcom, wvsom, pcsom, etc is below 24. i know the mcat's not everything, but when the average mcat is below the 50% percentile on the test, i think that's something to be concerned about. i'm not discounting that there are great applicants with low mcats, but when you're average is 23 or so, pretty much all your students have low mcats. i can't believe that residency directors don't pay any attention to that.

this is also a scary trend. check out the com matriculant mcat data.

http://www.aacom.org/data/advisorupdate/index_files/frame.html
 
From what I understand Barry University is considering opening a med school (DO) in Miami.
Can anyone confirm?
Peace.
 
what a sad, sad day for the AOA...
Let me get this straight...LAST year there where NOT ENOUGH residency spots for every graduate of a DO school (and that's if we had no choice in which field we went in to) and yet somehow the AOA thinks it's a good idea to add about 1-2 schools a year???
there is a word for this kind of uncontrolled growth...MALIGNANCY!!!
And just like in cancer...eventually our profession will be unable to function.
if the AOA had any inkling...even just 2 synapsing nuerons...they would do something to curb the growth of schools and improve the quality and quantity of post-graduate residency positions!!!
 
what a sad, sad day for the AOA...
Let me get this straight...LAST year there where NOT ENOUGH residency spots for every graduate of a DO school (and that's if we had no choice in which field we went in to) and yet somehow the AOA thinks it's a good idea to add about 1-2 schools a year???
there is a word for this kind of uncontrolled growth...MALIGNANCY!!!
And just like in cancer...eventually our profession will be unable to function.
if the AOA had any inkling...even just 2 synapsing nuerons...they would do something to curb the growth of schools and improve the quality and quantity of post-graduate residency positions!!!
 
while I fully agree w/ the overall point of your post....there are always a $hitload of spots left unfilled in primary care fields....even though some of them are likely unfilled for a good reason....

How many reach-arounds can the AOA continue to give the AMA for allowing our grads to continue to have enough desireable residency spots....either there will be a breaking point and $hit will hit the fan...or more desireable spots will be created....only time will tell...
 
exlawgrrl said:
the average mcat at vcom, wvsom, pcsom, etc is below 24. i know the mcat's not everything, but when the average mcat is below the 50% percentile on the test, i think that's something to be concerned about. i'm not discounting that there are great applicants with low mcats, but when you're average is 23 or so, pretty much all your students have low mcats. i can't believe that residency directors don't pay any attention to that.

this is also a scary trend. check out the com matriculant mcat data.

http://www.aacom.org/data/advisorupdate/index_files/frame.html

But you are basing something solely on one portion of your application.

Additionally ... I think compared to the AAMC facts, its actually not that different. Only by a point or so with standard deviations included.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005mcatgpa.htm

Additionally there is an upward trend on both for GPA. I guess since those colleges you are worried about focus more on primary care, they are looking more at the person rather than the numbers. Additionally, neither have a "large" acceptance rate. But with the 22 average of MCAT for the entering class of 2002 at WVCOM, I suppose some people would wonder. I suppose I know (and have been reassured) that each part of the application is weighed differently for applicants.

Whichever the case, I suppose with the opening of "more schools" I'm more concerned with Doctors staying in to "teach" and the quality of teachers. Would it be spread thin? I suppose its all about supply and demand. More teachers will pop up with demand as with everything else.

Another concern I had ... was that another school in NY? I have to agree with the poster who stated that the coasts are getting all the schools. Seems to be the "in" place to be. NY has a doctor per patient ratio of like 200 to 1 above the average or something ridiculous like that doesn't it? (didn't have time to search for that fact)
We can't accurately predict the future all the time but I don't forsee a huge "off-balance" between teaching at the new schools. People always claim "be weary of the new schools" and with good reason. But maybe some of that reason is unfounded because they might not be armed with the proper facts.
 
The AOA president talked about this at our school a few months back. I didn't attend but I was told he said the following things concerning the matter, that 1) the AOA has no direct control over new schools opening. and 2) that they would rather open more DO schools and have more DOs in primary care fields than have mid levels continue to expand. Or at least that was an arguement made to support opening more schools.
 
Education is good. More trained physicians will improve the knowledge level & ability to deliver health care to the world's population.
As there are more DOs there will be more public recognition & more competitive applicants. There are plenty of smart motivated people out there.
 
Lindyhopper said:
Education is good. More trained physicians will improve the knowledge level & ability to deliver health care to the world's population.
As there are more DOs there will be more public recognition & more competitive applicants. There are plenty of smart motivated people out there.
There comes a point where filling a seat will be more important than filling it with a QUALITY applicant. 👎 That would be negative and lead to less competitive applicants.
 
The AOA president talked about this...1) the AOA has no direct control over new schools opening
i have no doubt that he said this...is fits perfectly with the inadequate, ignorant, and inflated view the AOA has regarding its own existence.

This is directly from the AOA's Tips, Tactics, Truths book they gave us all...(page 18)
"The AOA's role is very different from that of the AMA (an actual professional organization...i added that part) For example, the AOA is establised as an educational organization, the AMA is recognized as a business trade organization. The AMA does not have the same decision-making role in accreditation of medical education. The AOA is the federally recognized accrediting authority for colleges of osteopathic medicine..."
Next paragraph states..."Unlike the AMA, the AOA also accredits hospitals and other healthcare facilities, it approves internship and residency programs..."

sure sounds like they claim to have a lot of control...they claim to be the authority in our education...then again they claim to be a professional organization...

2) that they would rather open more DO schools and have more DOs in primary care fields than have mid levels continue to expand
did he happen to say how this educational organization plans on training these graduates??? (rhetorical question of course)

this poses a couple important questions...
If DO's were not allowed to do ACGME residencies...what good is DO graduate if they can't practice because they can't do a residency???
And, maybe more importantly, why is the AOA accrediting more DO schools knowing full well they can't provide them a post-graduate education...isn't that a bit like writing a check when you know you have no $$$ in your account?

if you claim to be our educational organization...try and have something to do with our education!!!!
 
just to follow that last post up...
I (and i hope i'm not alone) find it infuriatingly frustrating that the AOA insults my intelligence with answers like "we have no control over that..." and "be true to our profession and don't do ACGME residencies..."

they are, almost eagerly, forcing our profession to be more and more dependent on the ACGME for our certification...
and then expect us to blindly follow them as they drive our profession directly into the ground
 
BrettBatchelor said:
There comes a point where filling a seat will be more important than filling it with a QUALITY applicant. 👎 That would be negative and lead to less competitive applicants.

It's really difficult to, confidently, predicted just how complicated human affairs will work themselves out. (Witness, the fate of "planned" economies. Consider the success of the incremental system of British commonlaw -exlawgirl). Given that we really don't know what will happen, I'm comfortable with the idea making more education & knowledge more available to a larger population 👍 will normally workout for the better.

Of course, I'm assuming there has to be rigorous lincensing of physicians.
I also believe that America doesn't educate enough physicians. It's really not good, that our rich, powerful, country (boasting the best grad university system in the world) drains the third world of its medically trained rescources.
 
Lindyhopper said:
I also believe that America doesn't educate enough physicians. It's really not good, that our rich, powerful, country (boasting the best grad university system in the world) drains the third world of its medically trained rescources.

i'm guessing that doctors from places like pakistan and india, etc. will still want to come here because of quality of life issues, so it's possible we'll still drain the third world of health resources, unless we more aggressively limit the licensure of foreign trained doctors. look at the IT industry -- india has a huge technological infrastructure and jobs for their engineers and programmers, but they're still coming here. without regulation, we could wind up with a glut of doctors here and still too few doctors in the third world.
 
exlawgrrl said:
i'm guessing that doctors from places like pakistan and india, etc. will still want to come here because of quality of life issues, so it's possible we'll still drain the third world of health resources, unless we more aggressively limit the licensure of foreign trained doctors. look at the IT industry -- india has a huge technological infrastructure and jobs for their engineers and programmers, but they're still coming here. without regulation, we could wind up with a glut of doctors here and still too few doctors in the third world.

You're probably right that physicians & lots of other folk will still what to come to America. But all that is kind of a different can of worms, anyway.

RE: The expansion I think that there has to be standards. But if someone meets the standards, raises the resources, just pulls the whole thing off. Then they're educating more intelligent people to do an important job. For their graduates to practice they still have to pass the Complex, & complete residency.
The world will still have more physicians & more knowledge. The labor market will work itself out.
 
Anyone who thinks it is alright to keep accepting students with MCAT scores < 50th percentile is ******ed. While only one part of the application, it is arguably the most important. While not a perfect test, it is the best objective measure available to compare all applicants.

This boom of new DO schools is a joke. This will only lead to more and more underqualified applicants being accepted. And I love how everyone just ignores the fact that the AOA does not have enough residency positions to train all of its graduates. The new DO philosophy is to provide its students with 1/2 of a medical education. They do a great job building fancy facilities and providing a decent preclinical curriculum. Then they leave their students hanging out to dry to complete their clinical training.

I hope the ACGME passes a resolution that bans DO students from entering ACGME residencies.
 
DireWolf said:
I hope the ACGME passes a resolution that bans DO students from entering ACGME residencies.


Why would you say this???
Wouldn't this just make the problem worse??
 
DireWolf said:
Anyone who thinks it is alright to keep accepting students with MCAT scores < 50th percentile is ******ed. While only one part of the application, it is arguably the most important. While not a perfect test, it is the best objective measure available to compare all applicants.

This boom of new DO schools is a joke. This will only lead to more and more underqualified applicants being accepted. And I love how everyone just ignores the fact that the AOA does not have enough residency positions to train all of its graduates. The new DO philosophy is to provide its students with 1/2 of a medical education. They do a great job building fancy facilities and providing a decent preclinical curriculum. Then they leave their students hanging out to dry to complete their clinical training.

I hope the ACGME passes a resolution that bans DO students from entering ACGME residencies.


Heh, wow. You got some balls...
 
bnoosha said:
Why would you say this???
Wouldn't this just make the problem worse??

it would for DOs...

but i don't think this type of scenario would be too far off the mark if the AOA continues blazing along with its current cavalier attitude.
 
bnoosha said:
Why would you say this???
Wouldn't this just make the problem worse??
Problem for who?

Taking a patient/global health standpoint or protecting your best interests. Choose your side wisely.
 
but i don't think this type of scenario would be too far off the mark if the AOA continues blazing along with its current cavalier attitude.
you mean that all the "we treat patients, not just symptoms" rhetoric isn't offensive to our MD counterparts...or the "we're MD's and something more..." or the "all the MD will do is Rx you something...i'll rub the back of your head and that'll fix everything!!!"
Or could it be that we are are biting the hand that is keeping our future sustained? Without us, our profession has no future...without residencies, we have no other choice...the very thing the AOA fears is the end they are eagerly driving us towards.


and the solution isn't flooding the system...it's putting residencies WHERE people want to go and WHERE we will get the best education...
How many times has the ONE SINGLE family residency in Az gone unfilled??? Try never...why? because it is a good education in a good area...

oh, and i don't see that happening because ACGME programs actually recognize and appreciate what we have to offer...much more than boosting numbers and being on TV!!!
 
bnoosha said:
Why would you say this???
Wouldn't this just make the problem worse??

On the contrary. This would force the AOA to create and improve their own residency programs. It is painfully obvious they are not motivated to do this on their own accord.

Why should the ACGME be responsible for picking up the slack and providing the other 1/2 of the DO students' medical education that the AOA is unwilling to provide?
 
BrettBatchelor said:
Problem for who?

Taking a patient/global health standpoint or protecting your best interests. Choose your side wisely.

I really don't what your advocating here. Let's pretend that improving patient/global health is the goal.
Expanding the educated workforce, & spreading knowledge is often a good thing. I'm somewhat troubled with the small decline in MCATs. But I think "If you build them they will come."
In the short term you may expand the intellectual low end of the physician bell curve. I think it is better to have
more qualified trained primary care physicians treating patients than less well trained & probably less intellectually gifted mid-levels.
There are unfilled residencies.
As the number of DOs increase I believe so will public acceptance, with it more applicants.
 
mshheaddoc said:
how is SGU more competitive with DO programs?

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/FirstTermEntrantsMed.htm

I think you are overly concerned with those factors. If anything MCAT scores have increased and I do have to say that I personally know a few people with sub-25 MCAT scores that are doing fine in med school and were accepted due to a high GPA. MCAT isn't everything especially for non-traditional students.

Agreed. The MCAT does not define who is capable of doing well in medical school or a persons ability to become a qualified physician. A persons performance in their undergrad is probably a better indicator. The MCAT does not reflect the type of tests a student will encounter in med school. It is one test on one day. Undergrad GPA constitutes +/- four years of dedication and preparation for exams, labs, quizzes, papers, reports, etc etc.
 
Lindyhopper said:
I really don't what your advocating here. Let's pretend that improving patient/global health is the goal.
Expanding the educated workforce, & spreading knowledge is often a good thing. I'm somewhat troubled with the small decline in MCATs. But I think "If you build them they will come."
In the short term you may expand the intellectual low end of the physician bell curve. I think it is better to have
more qualified trained primary care physicians treating patients than less well trained & probably less intellectually gifted mid-levels.
There are unfilled residencies.
As the number of DOs increase I believe so will public acceptance, with it more applicants.
Sure if schools keep popping up there will be a physician/person ratio will increase.

Do you know anything about law schools? What has happened there is that the supply of spots to law school has increased so much that now only the top 20 school graduates are landing the good jobs.

At this point any graduates from a US school has some options available to them.

I for one would like to think that I will have the opportunity to have a decent job selection once I get done with the education. A way to do this is keep supply regulated such that the competition isn't insane.

If the competition for good jobs and decreased salary starts to happen, many people won't find it worth their while to become a physician leading to even greater SHORTAGE of physicians.


As per your point of greater DO's more acceptance. I would buy this if the AOA had more spots to "foster" the osteopathic way rather than dumping graduates into MD programs and leaving their DO roots behind. I for one ask what is the point of the separate med education and school if they just become assimilated into the MD GME.
 
Well that does make more sense....
I guess i just freaked thinking how many people would not be able to get into residency programs if the ACGME banned DO's
...but i guess something needs to be done for the AOA to get their act together


DireWolf said:
On the contrary. This would force the AOA to create and improve their own residency programs. It is painfully obvious they are not motivated to do this on their own accord.

Why should the ACGME be responsible for picking up the slack and providing the other 1/2 of the DO students' medical education that the AOA is unwilling to provide?
 
BrettBatchelor said:
Sure if schools keep popping up there will be a physician/person ratio will increase.

Do you know anything about law schools? What has happened there is that the supply of spots to law school has increased so much that now only the top 20 school graduates are landing the good jobs.

At this point any graduates from a US school has some options . . .

Like your avatar might say, I believe it markets (within the limits of licensing & accreditation. etc).
But I also think you're a real smart guy who shouldn't fear competition or market forces.
 
Lindyhopper said:
Like your avatar might say, I believe it markets (within the limits of licensing & accreditation. etc).
But I also think you're a real smart guy who shouldn't fear competition or market forces.
Very true that I am going against my libertarian ideals, but I also think the system of training docs and the wage they would receive on the open market would be absurd.
 
dr.z said:
I agree. I think they should put schools were there are no other medical schools so they can help underserved population.


Does this actually provide the best training for future physicians? Wouldnt seeing more patients with a larger variety of problems make for the most effective medical education? just my $.02
 
as for the comments about the market sorting itself out, you know that's all in the long run. i don't want to get stuck in a short run bind with $200k in debt, a physician glut and no job. i, along with lots of other people, would not borrow as much as i'm likely going to be borrowing if it didn't come with guaranteed employment at a pretty high wage.

i'm also still not convinced that there are enough qualified applicants to feed all these new schools. if wages decrease, they'll probably be even fewer. if we're going to use law schools as an example, there are now so many law schools out there that it's pretty much inconceivable that a law school applicant, regardless of anything, wouldn't get in somewhere. sure, a lot of these people don't pass the bar, but they get in. that brings up other interesting ethical issues. there are fourth tier law schools with abysmal bar passage rates and grads with $100+k in debts. more selectivity upfront prevents the tragic situation of letting people spend years in school without having the ability to pass a licensing exam.
 
exlawgrrl said:
as for the comments about the market sorting itself out, you know that's all in the long run. i don't want to get stuck in a short run bind with $200k in debt, a physician glut and no job. i, along with lots of other people, would not borrow as much as i'm likely going to be borrowing if it didn't come with guaranteed employment at a pretty high wage.

i'm also still not convinced that there are enough qualified applicants to feed all these new schools. if wages decrease, they'll probably be even fewer. if we're going to use law schools as an example, there are now so many law schools out there that it's pretty much inconceivable that a law school applicant, regardless of anything, wouldn't get in somewhere. sure, a lot of these people don't pass the bar, but they get in. that brings up other interesting ethical issues. there are fourth tier law schools with abysmal bar passage rates and grads with $100+k in debts. more selectivity upfront prevents the tragic situation of letting people spend years in school without having the ability to pass a licensing exam.
Agree 100%.
 
DireWolf said:
I hope the ACGME passes a resolution that bans DO students from entering ACGME residencies.


On the surface, this sounds very inflammatory. But he's actually making an excellent point...and it illustrates just how absurd osteopathic GME is today. Can anyone imagine the chaos that would occur if, as of today, all MD residency spots were closed to DOs?

Of course, that isn't going to happen. But I think that improbability is why people don't appreciate just how dangerous and shortsighted the AOA is when it comes to opening new schools.

The AOA has completely failed the osteopathic community. I have no faith in them anymore to do anything that is in the interest of current DO students.
 
I for one have become very skeptical about applying to DO schools just based on this malignant growth of schools. I am sure there are others that have yet to apply but were looking forward to applying to DO schools because 1) they really are interested in learning OMM, 2) they are interested in primary care and know that they will receive a great clinical education in primary care settings, and 3) they are non-traditional and would like to study with many other older, non-traditional students in addition to the traditional students.

I agree with other posters that schools popping up everywhere dilutes the application pool and will allow in students that shouldn't be there in the first place. I want to be proud of my degree and know that my future DO colleagues became DOs because they wanted to, not because they and anyone else who wanted to could get in.

And seriously, what is the deal with not having enough DO GME spots for graduating DO students? As more DO schools open, more DO graduates will be applying to MD residencies. I think that there has to be some point of saturation where there just will not be enough spots for people to do what they want after graduation - there may always be FM spots available, but I cringe to think that this may be the only option for many graduating students, espically as more MDs enter the pipeline as MD programs increase their class size.

I worry for the DO profession, and am becoming more about skeptical about applying to DO programs by the day.

RisingSun
 
I have never understood the people calling for expansion of osteopathic GME. Osteopathic graduates have been foregoing AOA GME in favor of ACGME GME in increasing numbers, leaving huge quantities of unfilled slots. Unfilled slots lead to loss of funding. Hospitals cannot maintain programs that go unfilled. As long as osteopathic graduates continue flocking to ACGME programs (which they will continue to do so long as ACGME programs allow them to do so), AOA GME expansion is implausible. If the AOA were to expand GME today, would these new slots be filled? No. So why would they do so? If ACGME residencies become saturated, leaving osteopathic graduates unmatched, THEN would AOA GME expansion become plausible and necessary.

It seems to me that the main root of the entire problem is being ignored. WHY ARE OSTEOPATHIC SCHOOLS GETTING LOWER QUALITY APPLICANTS? WHY DO OSTEOPATHIC GRADUATES PREFER ACGME RESIDENCIES? The answer to both questions is that there are not enough people that buy into the AOA philosophy and believe that the AOA does a good job educating physicians to warrant the very existence of the AOA. If one were to be honest, a reasonable conclusion would be that the solution is dissolution of the AOA.
 
DireWolf said:
Anyone who thinks it is alright to keep accepting students with MCAT scores < 50th percentile is ******ed. While only one part of the application, it is arguably the most important. While not a perfect test, it is the best objective measure available to compare all applicants.

This boom of new DO schools is a joke. This will only lead to more and more underqualified applicants being accepted. And I love how everyone just ignores the fact that the AOA does not have enough residency positions to train all of its graduates. The new DO philosophy is to provide its students with 1/2 of a medical education. They do a great job building fancy facilities and providing a decent preclinical curriculum. Then they leave their students hanging out to dry to complete their clinical training.

I hope the ACGME passes a resolution that bans DO students from entering ACGME residencies.

The reality will be much worse. Rather than overtly (and illegally) banning DOs from MD residencies, program directors will just not accept as many of them (since MD programs are growing their class sizes as well). This is worse for you since the negative effect will be on the individual wanting the MD residency (whom the AOA doesnt care about, or they would have opened up more DO residencies), rather than on the entire degree (at which point the AOA would actually bother to make changes).

The problem is, doctors-to-be are very short-sighted in a field that is very long-term, both in training and in practice. The AOA gets more money if it opens up more schools, and the worst that happens is excess DO students might have to leave the country for residency. But the AOA still gets its money.

With the current drive to expand allopathic schools sizesfurther, and the opening of new MD schools in Florida and likely expansion in Texas, California, and NY, the predominantly MD residencies will accept more MDs.

Not a good sign that the AOA keeps doing this without making more residency programs.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
The reality will be much worse. Rather than overtly (and illegally) banning DOs from MD residencies, program directors will just not accept as many of them (since MD programs are growing their class sizes as well). This is worse for you since the negative effect will be on the individual wanting the MD residency (whom the AOA doesnt care about, or they would have opened up more DO residencies), rather than on the entire degree (at which point the AOA would actually bother to make changes).

The problem is, doctors-to-be are very short-sighted in a field that is very long-term, both in training and in practice. The AOA gets more money if it opens up more schools, and the worst that happens is excess DO students might have to leave the country for residency. But the AOA still gets its money.

With the current drive to expand allopathic schools sizesfurther, and the opening of new MD schools in Florida and likely expansion in Texas, California, and NY, the predominantly MD residencies will accept more MDs.

Not a good sign that the AOA keeps doing this without making more residency programs.

That is worrysome. Aside from residency placement, the value of the DO degree would be devalued as well since 'anyone can get in' mentality will set in like the term 'Carribean grad'---despite the fact that the top 3 Carribean schools do place well for their students, the fact that other Carribean schools do not degrades the term 'carribean schools'. I am hoping that this doesn't happen, and that the expansion of DO schools would be carefully thought out so that only qualified applicants---ones who can acquire residencies and become good physicians---will be accepted and not anyone who've got a bachelors and taken the MCAT. But with the proliferation of new DO schools, unless there is a substantial demand for DO degrees, it does seem likely that there will be a decrease in quality of students overall. Hm, very troubling indeed.
 
I'm surprised at this outcry on the part of DO students over the opening of 1 new school (btw I'm an MD MS1). There's no shortage of DO GME spots in specialties like FP or psych in rural areas. However what I gather the complaints are really about is you want more positions like ortho in LA or derm in Manhattan. The AOA can't just create these kinds of residencies at will: training spots for these specialties are highly regulated by trade associations to limit competition. As far as diluting the pool of physician talent and exceeding job openings, this is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Currently about 20,000 medical students (DO+MD) graduate every year. Realistically this number could increase by about 15% and there would still be more than enough residency spots. The benefit would be a decreased reliance on filling US residency spots with FMG's.
 
NonTradMed said:
That is worrysome. Aside from residency placement, the value of the DO degree would be devalued as well since 'anyone can get in' mentality will set in like the term 'Carribean grad'---despite the fact that the top 3 Carribean schools do place well for their students, the fact that other Carribean schools do not degrades the term 'carribean schools'. I am hoping that this doesn't happen, and that the expansion of DO schools would be carefully thought out so that only qualified applicants---ones who can acquire residencies and become good physicians---will be accepted and not anyone who've got a bachelors and taken the MCAT. But with the proliferation of new DO schools, unless there is a substantial demand for DO degrees, it does seem likely that there will be a decrease in quality of students overall. Hm, very troubling indeed.
Since the motivation behind the expansion of certain schools is primarily economic this will be in conflict with focus on accepting a high standard of applicant. It appears that most people who get through the pre med requirements and take the MCATs can make it through med school as well.
There are enough primary care residencies available to take whoever graduates.But competition for better programs and popular specialties will become more acute.If the proliferation of these schools gets out of hand then it will reverse the progress that DOs have made in having their educational system acccepted by mainstream allopathic medicine, asystem DOs are now totally beholden to.
 
Can anyone provide a weblink or some more information on the Touro school openning up in Harlem?

Thanks in advance...
 
First of all, just because an “under-qualified” applicant is accepted into medical school does not mean they will become a medical doctor. They have to pass standardized national board licensing exams, they have to impress clinical directors with clinical skills, and they have to graduate from medical school. In many cases they also have to pass specialty board exams to bill many insurances. You could effectively open the doors of medical school to everybody and still graduate the same number of qualified and excellent physicians. The application process is instead capable of weeding out probable unsuccessful students and to help ensure that only the most motivated and dedicated get in (two important qualities for success). I believe there are two types of people who can handle the medical school curriculum, fast learners/extra-smart people, and the hard workers with average intelligence. In my opinion, the ones who do poorly on the MCAT are usually people with poor work ethics of either type or in other words, lazy people, or people with their priorities messed up at the time. This does not necessarily equate to failure in becoming a doctor but one could argue the position should go to someone more willing to work hard (i.e. wants it the most) or play the “admissions game”, however the reality is that the serious Osteopathic applicant pool is much smaller than the Allopathic applicant pool.

Secondly, Allopathic residency programs will probably never shut their doors to Osteopathic physicians because 1) they need and want unfilled primary care positions to be filled, and 2) many Osteopathic physicians are awesome residents who bring great leadership and quality to their programs. Everyone wants the best. Shutting the door to Osteopathic physicians would shut out some of the best candidates.

I am proud to be a future DO and believe my time is well spent learning OMM and how the musculoskeletal system is the center of the holistic body on top of medicine and surgery. I like the small osteopathic community and I am inspired by our profession’s roots and the qualities that it upholds. I respect allopathic students and their training as well. I never felt that I would have any trouble doing whatever I wanted in the medical world albeit I understood that certain residency programs would be closed to me due to bias. I wasn’t bothered by that knowing the path would still be open and I would be very competent to follow it if I work hard and I am the best candidate. More physicians will mean steeper competition for the more competitive residency spots and it means that more primary care spots will be filled by unsuccessful applicants to those spots MD and DO; it is simple supply and demand. I am not afraid of this competition, are you?
 
NonTradMed said:
That is worrysome. Aside from residency placement, the value of the DO degree would be devalued as well since 'anyone can get in' mentality will set in like the term 'Carribean grad'---despite the fact that the top 3 Carribean schools do place well for their students, the fact that other Carribean schools do not degrades the term 'carribean schools'. I am hoping that this doesn't happen, and that the expansion of DO schools would be carefully thought out so that only qualified applicants---ones who can acquire residencies and become good physicians---will be accepted and not anyone who've got a bachelors and taken the MCAT. But with the proliferation of new DO schools, unless there is a substantial demand for DO degrees, it does seem likely that there will be a decrease in quality of students overall. Hm, very troubling indeed.

my hope is that the do degree itself won't become devalued. however, i can see where it will become increasingly important where you went to school. my hunch is that there will be more distinguishing between older more established schools and newer schools, which is actually pretty similar to the caribbean and law schools for that matter.
 
exlawgrrl said:
my hope is that the do degree itself won't become devalued. however, i can see where it will become increasingly important where you went to school. my hunch is that there will be more distinguishing between older more established schools and newer schools, which is actually pretty similar to the caribbean and law schools for that matter.

Yeah, that's true. I know that for law school, the reputation of your school is so so so important. However, I do not want people to start equating DO schools with the attitude that 'anyone will get in'. While that in of itself is not bad, the perception (my fear) is that residency directors and/or general public will start discriminating DOs for fear that one of us may have gone to a 'bad' DO school. Right now, people trust that a med school in the US will produced doctors who will be licensed and will become good, practicing physicians (for the most part). If there is an uncontrolled proliferation of DO schools with no thought to how to fill the school with qualified applicants, we will see that attitude change negatively. 😱

it is simple supply and demand. I am not afraid of this competition, are you?

I don't mind competition, in fact, I think our medical school system artificially maintains a limited supply to ensure job options for doctors----physicians are in essence, controlling their own job market by severely regulating the number of people that can enter the profession. If every profession did that, our economy would not be nearly as dynamic or innovative as it is right now. So yes, competition is a good thing.

However (and this is perhaps motivated by a bit of selfishness), I am afraid the DO degree would be equated with subpar candidates. That people, (especially program directors) will think a DO student is someone who probably got in with the minimal specs (since some would have). This will (I fear) create an (extra) stigma and I do not want when I'm looking for a job.

All this is just conjecture, but I don't want to have to 'do better' or fight an uphill battle just to be considered on equal basis with the next guy simply because another school also offered the DO degree to someone who failed organic (and never made up for it). Thus far, studies have shown no difference in quality of care of DOs and MDs, but we will reach a certain point where reaching for the bottom of the barrel also means creating poor physicians.

I advocate expanding DO schools, I advocated opening up more spaces in MD schools. What I don't want is a proliteration of schools that negate quality, that starts accepting students who partied throughout college and decided to take MCAT on a whim, and then go to med school. I don't want to see students coming out with 160k debt but no residency spot because there are so many students out and their poor study habits continued into med school that their low scores prevented them from matching at all. I think schools (and the AOA) have a responsibility to ensure that their students do well enough to get licensed. They are producing practicing physicians, not just kids with a medical degree. Expansion means doing so responsibly. It means ensuring that students that go in will come out, and that when they come out they will get a residency somewhere. Otherwise, we are no better than diploma mills. And my degree---even though I am planning on attending a good DO school---will also become associated with such diploma mills.
 
Nate said:
First of all, just because an “under-qualified” applicant is accepted into medical school does not mean they will become a medical doctor. They have to pass standardized national board licensing exams, they have to impress clinical directors with clinical skills, and they have to graduate from medical school. In many cases they also have to pass specialty board exams to bill many insurances. You could effectively open the doors of medical school to everybody and still graduate the same number of qualified and excellent physicians. The application process is instead capable of weeding out probable unsuccessful students and to help ensure that only the most motivated and dedicated get in (two important qualities for success). I believe there are two types of people who can handle the medical school curriculum, fast learners/extra-smart people, and the hard workers with average intelligence. In my opinion, the ones who do poorly on the MCAT are usually people with poor work ethics of either type or in other words, lazy people, or people with their priorities messed up at the time. This does not necessarily equate to failure in becoming a doctor but one could argue the position should go to someone more willing to work hard (i.e. wants it the most) or play the “admissions game”, however the reality is that the serious Osteopathic applicant pool is much smaller than the Allopathic applicant pool.

Secondly, Allopathic residency programs will probably never shut their doors to Osteopathic physicians because 1) they need and want unfilled primary care positions to be filled, and 2) many Osteopathic physicians are awesome residents who bring great leadership and quality to their programs. Everyone wants the best. Shutting the door to Osteopathic physicians would shut out some of the best candidates.

I am proud to be a future DO and believe my time is well spent learning OMM and how the musculoskeletal system is the center of the holistic body on top of medicine and surgery. I like the small osteopathic community and I am inspired by our profession’s roots and the qualities that it upholds. I respect allopathic students and their training as well. I never felt that I would have any trouble doing whatever I wanted in the medical world albeit I understood that certain residency programs would be closed to me due to bias. I wasn’t bothered by that knowing the path would still be open and I would be very competent to follow it if I work hard and I am the best candidate. More physicians will mean steeper competition for the more competitive residency spots and it means that more primary care spots will be filled by unsuccessful applicants to those spots MD and DO; it is simple supply and demand. I am not afraid of this competition, are you?

Well said 👍
 
Whether I like it or not, and regardless of the increased competition aspect for top locations/specialties..... what I can honestly foresee happening in the long-term, grand scheme of things is the following:

There will be a dividing into "tiers" of DO Schools. Certain DO schools that have a proven LONG TERM track record of excellence/quality/etc will be seen in a different light then the brand new-unproven schools (until proven otherwise). Right now, in most peoples eyes, there is not much of a divide among the DO schools. Some exists b/w the top, highly ranked, high admission standards and somewhat lower schools....but not enough to really call them "tiers".

Example: No one is going to confuse Harvard/Hopkins/etc with the lowest of the low ranked MD schools. That is not to imply at all that the education is worse, or that the finished product (physician) is lesser quality, just the public perception of the graduate based upon the repuation of the school.

In the grand scheme of things....NO ONE thinks lesser of the MD degree because of this divide because there is a proven track record that the lower-tier schools can still produce competant physicians.

I think it will take some time....but hopefully this will be the case with the new DO schools.
 
To suggest that these "diploma mills" as some of you are referring to them will turn out a lesser quality physician is a fallacy. More schools opening dilutes the ENTIRE pool, not just the applicant pool for that school (for that to be true, all of the more qualified applicants would have to choose to attend the older schools rather than the newer ones, and that does not happen). You could argue that osteopathic education as a whole will turn out lesser quality physicians, but not the new schools in particular.
In fact, I think you will find that a new school often attracts exceptional faculty and administrators who enjoy the opportunity to sculpt a curriculum and educational environment in locales that are often much more attractive than those of existing schools (FL, Vegas, Atlanta).
The fact is that NO osteopathic schools have the high reputation in the general public that the oldest most revered MD schools do. While schools like KCOM and CCOM may be well regarded in the DO world, the lay public (perhaps outside of Missouri and regions of the Midwest) could not tell you the difference between AT Still University and Touro-Nevada. To suggest that DO schools will become stratified is a little ludicrous IMO - especially since they number in the 20s as opposed to 120.
 
What do you all care about new schools openning up anyway? That is what I hate when people sit here and go on about things they have no knowledge of. If you didn't realize, these schools are going to keep opening up whether you get carpal tunnel or not typing on SDN. Stop crying and do your best in the soon-to-be cloned school you attend, and if you are not in medical school yet, be glad that there are 10000 more openning up for you. Good luck either way.

Taking the boards and doing well and getting into a choice residency program is what makes a doctor. Medical school is the means to an end, and a very lucrative business at that. I wish I had the chance to open one up myself. I wouldn't be so sleep deprived.


Now, could someone tell me more about this Touro campus opening up in Harlem? Please?
 
Osteopathic graduates have been foregoing AOA GME in favor of ACGME GME in increasing numbers, leaving huge quantities of unfilled slots. Unfilled slots lead to loss of funding. Hospitals cannot maintain programs that go unfilled
then CLOSE these programs...don't keep pumping in more and more and more students hoping against hope that one of them will pick a program in rural PA!!!
And it doesn't have to be Ortho in LA...how about FM/IM in Phoenix, SLC, Denver, or Portland...anything west of say...Virginia!!!! And in a CITY of over...lets go big...20,000!!!!
The AOA is greatly devaluating our degree...by allowing schools to spread like herpes without any structure on which to support them, we are being set up for collapse and embarrassment!!!
i just hope it's not the blind (through total stupidity) leading the blind (through innocent ignorance)...
 
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