New EM programs 2017

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EMthriveaway

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Feel like a lot of new programs are in the match this year- just wondering if people had any preliminary thoughts on them, how they are going to stack up etc?

New progs 2017
- Kendall
- FAU
- Grand Strand
- Greenville SC
- RCH/UCR
- Rush
- St. Johns

await accred
- Emc

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I second this post. Would love to hear anything on Grand Strand!
 
Kendall is in its 2nd year, interviewed there, PD has a strong vision, its actually a Trauma I and burn center so they see a lot of good stuff. Residents seemed like a good group too! Its in a suburban-ish part of Miami, very Hispanic-heavy population.
 
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does anyone have any prelim thoughts on rush?

ofcourse the basis of being in a strong academic institution helps that it is creating a new program. somewhat concerned about their emphasis on things other programs do not do, such as QI and bioinformatics, SIM labs will be inoperable for 1+ year due to expansion. however, we tend to focus on negatives rather than positives first. It will likely be as good as other new programs.
 
Any of these programs looking for pgy 2 or 3 outside of the match?
 
The sim lab is expanding, but at no point will it be inoperable. The existing sim center will continue to function as it has for the last several years while new rooms are being built.
 
Any thoughts in terms of comparing Yonkers vs Rush?
Yonkers felt like a bunch of academics missed teaching and decided to open a new program. It felt rushed, the facilities seemed too small for the advertised volume, and I didn't love the justifications for some curriculum choices (particularly NICU and NSICU). I also didn't get a lot of my questions answered (they skirted around answering me directly). It seemed like whenever I asked about something, they said "we'll have that later." (Versus Rush, who's answer was "let me introduce you to the person in charge of that."

My biggest concern with Rush is the volume. The ED is huge, but seemed quiet on the tour. However, the program seemed well thought out, especially since they have had residents and fellows from Cook County for quite a while.
 
Any thoughts in terms of comparing Yonkers vs Rush?
I don't know anything about Yonkers but I agree with most of what @em_2017 said about Rush. I will say don't be alarmed by a seemingly quiet ED; that may just mean the department and hospital are well-run. One of the programs I interviewed at in Detroit did about 130,000 visits a year but made an effort to not have people stacking up in hallway beds and the waiting room. The volume was close to double Rush's, but it was even quieter because the department and hospital were just very efficient. Go to Cook County and you get that inner city zoo feel, but it isn't because the volume is that much higher. It's because the hospital is under-resourced and inefficient. Everyone has to make their own call on what that means in terms of training...I personally don't want to spend that much of my time wheeling my own patients to radiology and doing my own phlebotomy...I learned how to do this well enough on my M3 rotations at County.

The volume at Rush is about 75,000 per year (and increasing every year). It is a level 2, Cook County is directly across the street, and the city of Chicago is full of hospitals, including several level 1's. This has implications for what you'll see in your ED months at Rush. Now I think the trauma experience in the curriculum is going to be just fine, because it is at county. But you spend 7-8 months each year in Rush's ED, and you won't see hardly any trauma during those months. Keep in mind, this is also how the curriculum is set up in the legendary Cook County residency program. You see trauma when you're on trauma service, not on your ED months.

If you train in a level 1 in a small or midsize city (Detroit, Memphis, Akron, Penn State in Hershey, etc), you'll see similar ED volumes, but the 75,000-100,000 visits will typically include a lot more trauma than what Rush sees. The trade off is you'll miss out on some of the crazy tertiary care/academic stuff you'll see at Rush. Does it matter? Hard to say. Couple of things worth considering though.

When you work in an ED that sees crazy medically complex patients, you work with attendings that like that stuff and are equipped to handle it. The other thing is what you'll see on your off-service rotations. The stuff in Rush's ICUs and PICU is some of the bread and butter, but a lot of crazier stuff that simply gets transferred out of other centers because they weren't equipped to deal with it. And when you work with the specialists that are equipped, you see and do crazy ****.

For example, as an M4 at Rush on a PICU selective, I assisted one of our Peds CV surgeons while she cracked the chest on a coding 12 week infant, in the kid's PICU room, to do an open heart ECMO cannulation. If you were an EM resident on your PICU month, you would have been front and center for that resuscitation. And if you wanted to, you could manage that kid's care day to day. You're just not going to see that kind of thing everywhere, and I've got dozens of stories like this.

Again does it matter? Hard to say. You go to a community program and you'll certainly learn how to, say, workup kids with fever. You come to Rush and you'll learn how to do it in normal kids, but also kids who have an open chest in the PICU, or had a bone marrow transplant two days ago, or who are getting desensitized to Rituximab, which they need because they developed a B-cell lymphoma after their kidney transplant (which they needed because of their extremely rare genetic disorder that gave them FSGS). It's like swinging a leaded bat. If you can work up and dispo fever in those kids, the otherwise healthy 7 month old with bronchiolitis becomes something you can handle 6 beers deep. If you're not interested in training with those kinds of more challenging patients, Rush isn't the place for you.

Another thing I can say about Rush's program is that the hospital has a lot of resources and consequently, the ED already has a lot of the small perks other places either brag about, or say they are working on getting. Qpath for logging ultrasound scans? Check. 24/7 social work/case management? Check. 24/7 ED pharmacist? Check. And if there's something they don't have that you want, if you can make a strong enough case for it, they've got the dough to procure it.

Last consideration, which if you're lazy, or have a family, or both, is a big consideration, is that their curriculum has the fewest shifts of any place I interviewed/rotated. The shifts are also 9's with the last hour protected, and you sign out your patients so you don't have to wait around for any lingering results or social issues that are holding up your dispo. Places that have 9's or 10's but don't allow sign out of patients are deluding you, because those shifts regularly turn into 12's or worse.
 
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I don't know anything about Yonkers but I agree with most of what @em_2017 said about Rush. I will say don't be alarmed by a seemingly quiet ED; that may just mean the department and hospital are well-run. One of the programs I interviewed at in Detroit did about 130,000 visits a year but made an effort to not have people stacking up in hallway beds and the waiting room. The volume was close to double Rush's, but it was even quieter because the department and hospital were just very efficient. Go to Cook County and you get that inner city zoo feel, but it isn't because the volume is that much higher. It's because the hospital is under-resourced and inefficient. Everyone has to make their own call on what that means in terms of training...I personally don't want to spend that much of my time wheeling my own patients to radiology and doing my own phlebotomy...I learned how to do this well enough on my M3 rotations at County.

The volume at Rush is about 75,000 per year (and increasing every year). It is a level 2, Cook County is directly across the street, and the city of Chicago is full of hospitals, including several level 1's. This has implications for what you'll see in your ED months at Rush. Now I think the trauma experience in the curriculum is going to be just fine, because it is at county. But you spend 7-8 months each year in Rush's ED, and you won't see hardly any trauma during those months. Keep in mind, this is also how the curriculum is set up in the legendary Cook County residency program. You see trauma when you're on trauma service, not on your ED months.

If you train in a level 1 in a small or midsize city (Detroit, Memphis, Akron, Penn State in Hershey, etc), you'll see similar ED volumes, but the 75,000-100,000 visits will typically include a lot more trauma than what Rush sees. The trade off is you'll miss out on some of the crazy tertiary care/academic stuff you'll see at Rush. Does it matter? Hard to say. Couple of things worth considering though.

When you work in an ED that sees crazy medically complex patients, you work with attendings that like that stuff and are equipped to handle it. The other thing is what you'll see on your off-service rotations. The stuff in Rush's ICUs and PICU is some of the bread and butter, but a lot of crazier stuff that simply gets transferred out of other centers because they weren't equipped to deal with it. And when you work with the specialists that are equipped, you see and do crazy ****.

For example, as an M4 at Rush on a PICU selective, I assisted one of our Peds CV surgeons while she cracked the chest on a coding 12 week infant, in the kid's PICU room, to do an open heart ECMO cannulation. If you were an EM resident on your PICU month, you would have been front and center for that resuscitation. And if you wanted to, you could manage that kid's care day to day. You're just not going to see that kind of thing everywhere, and I've got dozens of stories like this.

Again does it matter? Hard to say. You go to a community program and you'll certainly learn how to, say, workup kids with fever. You come to Rush and you'll learn how to do it in normal kids, but also kids who have an open chest in the PICU, or had a bone marrow transplant two days ago, or who are getting desensitized to Rituximab, which they need because they developed a B-cell lymphoma after their kidney transplant (which they needed because of their extremely rare genetic disorder that gave them FSGS). It's like swinging a leaded bat. If you can work up and dispo fever in those kids, the otherwise healthy 7 month old with bronchiolitis becomes something you can handle 6 beers deep. If you're not interested in training with those kinds of more challenging patients, Rush isn't the place for you.

Another thing I can say about Rush's program is that the hospital has a lot of resources and consequently, the ED already has a lot of the small perks other places either brag about, or say they are working on getting. Qpath for logging ultrasound scans? Check. 24/7 social work/case management? Check. 24/7 ED pharmacist? Check. And if there's something they don't have that you want, if you can make a strong enough case for it, they've got the dough to procure it.

Last consideration, which if you're lazy, or have a family, or both, is a big consideration, is that their curriculum has the fewest shifts of any place I interviewed/rotated. The shifts are also 9's with the last hour protected, and you sign out your patients so you don't have to wait around for any lingering results or social issues that are holding up your dispo. Places that have 9's or 10's but don't allow sign out of patients are deluding you, because those shifts regularly turn into 12's or worse.


Awesome detailed post!! Great to have insight from a Rush student. The only thing was during my interview (it was the first date in late december so this may have changed), I was told by the PD that Rush will encorporate 12s within the 9 hour shifts so they will not be all 9s. This lead me to think that the shift work was average at places I interviewed at. One program in the midwest does 16-18 8 hour shifts (7 hours and then 1 hour protected) which was amazingly low time comittment. Ofcourse residency shouldnt be decided on 8 vs 7 vs 9 etc. But when I heard 'some 12s to give you a golden weekend' it kind of downgraded my thoughts on the SCHEDULING only as some 12s may become 5-6 12s a month and 12s just aren't my niche. (everything else reflects what you said).
 
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Awesome detailed post!! Great to have insight from a Rush student. The only thing was during my interview (it was the first date in late december so this may have changed), I was told by the PD that Rush will encorporate 12s within the 9 hour shifts so they will not be all 9s. This lead me to think that the shift work was average at places I interviewed at. One program in the midwest does 16-18 8 hour shifts (7 hours and then 1 hour protected) which was amazingly low time comittment. Ofcourse residency shouldnt be decided on 8 vs 7 vs 9 etc. But when I heard 'some 12s to give you a golden weekend' it kind of downgraded my thoughts on the SCHEDULING only as some 12s may become 5-6 12s a month and 12s just aren't my niche. (everything else reflects what you said).

Yeah the 12's are weekends only, and my understanding is that this is done to give you not one golden, but every-other weekend off. So you theoretically wouldn't ever have more than 4 12's per month, and you take them in exchange for two weekends off.
 
If you think Detroit is still a big city, I don't know what to do for you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit


Any city still supporting MLB, NFL, Hockey and an NBA team has to be a 'big' city.

And in addition to your response, I waas told Fridays would count as weekends. Meaning you would have to work 3 twelve hour shifts the previous week (leading to 6 12's a month) (F,S,Su) to get the next weekend off. Its not worth it.
 
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Any city still supporting MLB, NFL, Hockey and an NBA team has to be a 'big' city.

And in addition to your response, I waas told Fridays would count as weekends. Meaning you would have to work 3 twelve hour shifts the previous week (leading to 6 12's a month) (F,S,Su) to get the next weekend off. Its not worth it.

Yes that is correct. Friday will be a 'weekend' day and expect 6 or so 12 hour shifts a month.
 
If you think Akron and Hershey are on par with the 14th biggest metro area in the country I don't know what to do for you.

Nah homie. That's why I said small OR midsize. Detroit is obviously much bigger than Akron if you're just looking at those two cities. But Akron is also part of the Cleveland-Akron-Canton MSA which has a population of 3.5 Mil, so if you're comparing MSA to MSA they're not that different. And both are half or less than half the size of Chicago. You can call that big if you want to bro. I'm just not a guy who feels the need to exaggerate about the size of things.

None of that is even relevant to what I was saying anyway. The point is that ED volume alone doesn't tell you much about the training. Neither does MSA. Memphis for example, MSA 1.2 million, ED volume similar to Rush, but doesn't have Cook County across the street. Their residents get ridiculous procedure numbers in the department. At Rush, a lot of procedures will come from the off-service months.
 
Any city still supporting MLB, NFL, Hockey and an NBA team has to be a 'big' city.

And in addition to your response, I waas told Fridays would count as weekends. Meaning you would have to work 3 twelve hour shifts the previous week (leading to 6 12's a month) (F,S,Su) to get the next weekend off. Its not worth it.
Everyone has to make their own call on this. My priority would be on working the fewest number of shifts per month. I'd rather have 16x 12's than 20x 8's but that's just me.

I also don't know that both "on" weekends would include working all three weekend days, but again I don't particularly care if I'm working fewer shifts.
 
But Akron is also part of the Cleveland-Akron-Canton MSA which has a population of 3.5 Mil, so if you're comparing MSA to MSA they're not that different.
Nah homie. Akron is part of the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA which has a population of 3.5 million. The Akron MSA is ~700k. For reference, the Detroit-Warren-Ann Arbor CSA is 5.3 million. #geographyed

Either way if you think medically complex patients get crowded out by trauma patients in tiny old Detroit you don't know Detroit. I'd rather not be in a protected trauma-less bubble. It's not reflective of the job the vast majority of us will work. Before you tell me there's nowhere like Rush with trauma you should look into Henry Ford.
 
Nah homie. Akron is part of the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA which has a population of 3.5 million. The Akron MSA is ~700k. For reference, the Detroit-Warren-Ann Arbor CSA is 5.3 million. #geographyed

Either way if you think medically complex patients get crowded out by trauma patients in tiny old Detroit you don't know Detroit. I'd rather not be in a protected trauma-less bubble. It's not reflective of the job the vast majority of us will work. Before you tell me there's nowhere like Rush with trauma you should look into Henry Ford.

Right right, CSA...huge difference. And by huge difference I mean the numbers are still exactly what I said they were, and anyone can google them, so why are you splitting hairs? 3.5 million vs 5.2 million vs. 9.4 million. One of these is big. Here's a hint: it's the big one. You don't need to get defensive about Detroit being half the size of Chicago, though bro. It's really OK man. You're going to be fine. You can remove the chip from your shoulder.

You actually seem to agree with me, as the thing I was saying is that in most places (certainly at Henry Ford), you'll see way more trauma on your ED months than you will at Rush. But let me know if you want to inception troll me and argue about what we're arguing about what we're arguing about.

It's cute of you to suggest I don't know about Henry Ford. Did you think I was suggesting that Rush, in its inaugural year, was going to provide better training than Henry Ford? That would be ridiculous. It would be equally ridiculous for you to suggest that Henry Ford offers the same experiences in academic/tertiary care as Rush. Is Henry Ford also academically comparable to University of Michigan? Northwestern? University of Chicago? Don't all of these programs produce ER docs that can go through the trauma algorithm?

Quite honestly, I doubt anyone this year is sitting around, scratching their heads just laboring over the real brain-buster of where to rank Rush relative to Henry Ford. No one is in that situation.

People who are earnestly considering brand new programs are probably doing so because they are average applicants with limited options and/or geographic limitations. They aren't looking at new programs two weeks before rank lists are due going, "Gee, Henry Ford, why didn't I think of that?"

This info is only meant to be useful for people who interviewed at Rush and are considering ranking it in a non-abysmal position on their ROL. (ie this information is not for you).

If you have experience at Rush that somehow differs from mine, feel free to cough that up, because that would actually be useful. If you have zero experience with Rush, which is how you're coming off, then your opinions on the training they will provide are speculative, inane, and have no credibility.

All I was saying, and this is the one thing we clearly agree on, is that the lack of trauma in Rush's department is something that shouldn't be ignored. They've addressed this with months of trauma at Cook County. Does that make it a comparable experience to training at Henry Ford? No. It makes it more comparable to training at Cook County. People in a position to consider Rush will have to decide whether or not that is adequate for them.

You're also right that 90% of EM physicians dont work in academic/tertiary care settings. Does that mean no one should ever train in those environments? Seems like a silly/closed minded point of view.
 
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You don't need to get defensive about Detroit being half the size of Chicago, though bro. It's really OK man. You're going to be fine. You can remove the chip from your shoulder
Im not from Detroit. I hate Detroit (and Akron). I called out a dumb statement and defense. But sure, anything smaller than Chicago isn't big and it's a pizza not a casserole. Moving on.

You're right though. I missed the forest for the trees in your long form piece about the Rush PICU. I'll summarize for anyone else who tl;dr- Although it's a new program that may get overlooked for its neighbors, Rush is worth a look if you're looking for a heavy academic program.
 
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