(new hospitalist) When do you refuse admissions from ER? Need help avoiding getting dumped on

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helpfulApu

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hi

i am a relatively new hospitalist and still in residency mode of not knowing how to say no to things

i think but am not sure that i now have a reputation among the ER docs that I pretty much accept anything and everything.. i should add that some of the other hospitlists have a reputation for being cantankerous and difficult to admit to

this has resulted in them dumping AMS / fall patient with pending CT head which later returned with brain bleed , and acute renal failure patients needing emergent HD with no formal Nephro recs yet or HD access

thankfully the outcomes were OK in these cases , and I learned my lesson about those specific cases , on why I would refuse them in the future

is there any other "Gotchas" to look out for during sign out? do you just refuse anything that has pending labs/imaging? im trying to get a sense of where the line is and whether they have been crossing it with me

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also at the start of my admitting shift i routinely get 2-3 admits in the first 5 minutes. i later heard from a ER doc that other hospitalists "stop taking admissions" in theire last 30 minutes which results in bolus for the next person. should I be doing this ???? if its so prevalent? i hve to stay late often because of 2 - 3admit in the last 15 min (some of our admitting shifts end at the same time as the ER doc shift so they try to dispo right before leaving which is the same time im supposed to be leaving)
 
This is going to be very local culture specific and you would be better advised talking to your colleagues.

In general if there is something borderline in the admit that might prompt a transfer (eiher to another hospital or ICU) ask ER to run the case by the intensivist or whatever specialty would have to deal with the issue first. If ER pushes back against this then decline to admit without that input and recommend transfer.

I would recommend placing holding orders but not admitting anything within the last hour to make sure you get out on time unless you are being paid by productivity in which case it is your call.
 
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I am not a hospitalist.

That said, as @chessknt pointed out, much of this is local culture specific. And a lot also depends on what's available at your institution. In the cases you mentioned, if you have nephrology and can get a line put in, it's not a huge issue for you to admit and then call renal yourself. Unless they're an ICU player for some other reason, that can all be done on the floor. For the bleed, if you have neurosurgery in house, you just call them and let them take over once the CT comes back. If you don't have neurosurgery, an ED-to-ED transfer is much easier than a floor-to-floor transfer so yeah, for that one, clearly the ED wanted to wash their hands of it and not have to be the one to call neurosurgery so I'd ask them to wait until the scan came back before deciding to admit.

TBH, you're probably not going to find any sort of universal answer to this question. So you need to figure out what you are/aren't comfortable managing and go from there. But also knowing what's commonly considered standard where you are is important.
 

When do you refuse admissions from ER?​


Never! This is a sure fire way to draw the hospital admin on your case. Welcome to being a hospitalist.

If I think the patient doesn't really need to be admitted---case in point, r/o chest pain, EKG and trops are negative, but the ER doc is too scared to discharge himself, b/c the patient has a good 'story' for an MI---I'll admit the patient and possibly DC straight out of the ER (I assume the responsibility and liability of DC).

In the hospital I work at, the hospital admin watches closely the LOS in the ER. For the ER physician, the LOS ends when he calls us for admission. So you can guess, they call us very quickly, sometimes even admitting patient from the lobby, before they've even been seen!

It (emergency medicine) has truly become an abysmal specialty. There's a few diamonds in the rough . . .but it's definitely the one specialty that I'm so glad to have avoided.
 
hi

i am a relatively new hospitalist and still in residency mode of not knowing how to say no to things

i think but am not sure that i now have a reputation among the ER docs that I pretty much accept anything and everything.. i should add that some of the other hospitlists have a reputation for being cantankerous and difficult to admit to

this has resulted in them dumping AMS / fall patient with pending CT head which later returned with brain bleed , and acute renal failure patients needing emergent HD with no formal Nephro recs yet or HD access

thankfully the outcomes were OK in these cases , and I learned my lesson about those specific cases , on why I would refuse them in the future

is there any other "Gotchas" to look out for during sign out? do you just refuse anything that has pending labs/imaging? im trying to get a sense of where the line is and whether they have been crossing it with me
Really depends on what subspecialty support you have available, hospital culture etc. In both of the cases you mention I'm assuming you have NSG and Nephro/IR/ICU available in-house to handle these cases? If so then you made more work for yourself (and made ED's life easier) but really no harm to admitting, you can call the necesary consults as well as anybody else. If you're in a place where you don't have these things in-house then yes, I'd probably be more cautious as these are potentially unstable patients that are better managed in a non-floor environment.

Agree that getting a reputation as the guy who fights admissions won't play well, especially for a new guy. Don't stall the ED. If you feel so strongly the patient is OK to discharge, discharge them from the ED yourself. Every guy I've known who was a PITA to the ED was a PITA to work with in general, and their cavalier attitudes almost invariably lead to embarrassing misestimations (at best) and terrible outcomes (at worst).

Re: holding admits for the next guy, does your group have an official policy? I would talk to your leadership. But if everybody else is doing it no reason you shouldn't as well.
 
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If there's something the patient needs that could significantly change disposition, it's reasonable to ask the ED to wait a bit. I don't think this makes you difficult--if someone fell and is pending head CT, that CT is the difference between a floor admission for PT and placement and a Neuro ICU admission--and if you don't have neurosurgery in house, now you're on the hook for the transfer and without EMTALA protections. I don't know how someone snuck in a renal failure admission without a BMP or volume assessment but at least where I work the emergent HD need would change dispo as in ICU vs floors.

Otherwise I agree that fighting soft admissions usually just wastes everyone's time and makes it even harder to work with the ED when you actually need their help. If you really don't think they need admission just DC them yourself.
 

When do you refuse admissions from ER?​


Never! This is a sure fire way to draw the hospital admin on your case. Welcome to being a hospitalist.

If I think the patient doesn't really need to be admitted---case in point, r/o chest pain, EKG and trops are negative, but the ER doc is too scared to discharge himself, b/c the patient has a good 'story' for an MI---I'll admit the patient and possibly DC straight out of the ER (I assume the responsibility and liability of DC).

In the hospital I work at, the hospital admin watches closely the LOS in the ER. For the ER physician, the LOS ends when he calls us for admission. So you can guess, they call us very quickly, sometimes even admitting patient from the lobby, before they've even been seen!

It (emergency medicine) has truly become an abysmal specialty. There's a few diamonds in the rough . . .but it's definitely the one specialty that I'm so glad to have avoided.
Yeah, this is pretty much the answer. If the ED does something stupid like start antibiotics on a person with worsening dementia, a dirty UA, and no urinary symptoms or signs of sepsis, I just say "Wow. I'll take it from here" and then discontinue all their stupid stuff.

If I feel someone needs to be discharged because there's just literally no reason for them to be in the ER let alone the hospital, I just do it myself.

The only exception is when someone is signing out AMA. Then I call the ED and say hey, they don't want to stay.

My ED loves to admit old people who have the flu and normal vital signs for observation. When I asked one of the ED physicians about this, she said: "Well, if they have an abnormal vital sign, I typically don't like to discharge them." This is what I ED has become. If I have a fever and tachycardia because of the flu, I stay home. Which is exactly what most old people should do. But once you make it to the ED, all bets are off.
 
When I asked one of the ED physicians about this, she said: "Well, if they have an abnormal vital sign, I typically don't like to discharge them." This is what I ED has become.

The sad thing is: we created Emergency Medicine (as a specialty) to avoid this. We reasoned that if we have emergency trained physicians in the ER, they (being physicians) could look at a patient and recognize they're not that sick, don't need to stay. But instead, we created a culture of physicians that are so scared of liability, they do the exact opposite.

My ER physicians admit everyone north of 70-yo, they always find a reason. They might as well be nurses; it doesn't take that much brain power to just call Medicine or Surgery for admission.

We should probably get rid of the entire specialty (Emergency Medicine), and just go back to manning the ER with internists, surgeons, peds, etc (as it was pre 1990).
 
The sad thing is: we created Emergency Medicine (as a specialty) to avoid this. We reasoned that if we have emergency trained physicians in the ER, they (being physicians) could look at a patient and recognize they're not that sick, don't need to stay. But instead, we created a culture of physicians that are so scared of liability, they do the exact opposite.

My ER physicians admit everyone north of 70-yo, they always find a reason. They might as well be nurses; it doesn't take that much brain power to just call Medicine or Surgery for admission.

We should probably get rid of the entire specialty (Emergency Medicine), and just go back to manning the ER with internists, surgeons, peds, etc (as it was pre 1990).
I always assumed we created EM because we (the internists, surgeons, peds, etc) were all sick of manning the ER.
 
I always assumed we created EM because we (the internists, surgeons, peds, etc) were all sick of manning the ER.

It certainly was. But it backfired on us. Nobody liked manning the ER, but every one had to do their "2 weeks/year" (whatever the requirement), sometimes it was incentivized with extra pay or time off.

I don't think Emergency Medicine is going to go back to that. Far more likely, we'll just see a bunch of mid-levels overrun the profession (is happening now), while physicians coming out of medical school avoid it like the plague (also happening now, as we're seeing many EM residency spots go unfilled).
 
The sad thing is: we created Emergency Medicine (as a specialty) to avoid this. We reasoned that if we have emergency trained physicians in the ER, they (being physicians) could look at a patient and recognize they're not that sick, don't need to stay. But instead, we created a culture of physicians that are so scared of liability, they do the exact opposite.

My ER physicians admit everyone north of 70-yo, they always find a reason. They might as well be nurses; it doesn't take that much brain power to just call Medicine or Surgery for admission.

We should probably get rid of the entire specialty (Emergency Medicine), and just go back to manning the ER with internists, surgeons, peds, etc (as it was pre 1990).
EM was created because the above specialties were bad at practicing in the ER.

Most surgeons are **** at reading EKGs and consult for the most mundane medical complaints. Most internists are inept at managing trauma, and have no experience with OB, peds or ortho. Most family physicians are mediocre at best at resuscitation and lack real experience with critically ill patients. There really isn't any specialty that can reliably function accurately and efficiently in an ER.

That being said, external forces make EM doctors practice in a way that is infurating. Admitting a bedbound, demented 90yo is pointless but the system has nowhere to put them. Admitting every HEART score >4 is probably overkill but missed MIs are among the most litigated chief complaints.

Furthermore, for every 1 patient that gets admitted, 8-9 are getting discharged without you ever hearing about them. And that doesn't even begin to touch the topic of nonsensical ED referrals from outpatient physicians for absolutely inappropriate reasons.

I precept IM & FM residents in the ER and in 8 years I haven't met a single one who could honestly function in any ER other than a rural, low volume setting.
 
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EM was created because the above specialties were bad at practicing in the ER.

I don't think they were all bad at it, I think they just didn't want to do it. Somebody came up the idea of creating an EM specialty, and off they went.

Sometimes, we don't need to create more specialties. For instance, of recent, it's been proposed to create a 'primary care' residency, or an 'urgent care' residency, to meet those needs. Silly. We already have that, it's called Internal or Family Medicine. Maybe we need to emphasize primary care more, within those specialties. Maybe we need to re-structure IM/FM to teach more primary care, but certainly don't need a new specialty.

The proof that EM was unnecessary is in today's pudding; a specialty with increasing mid-level encroachment and a paucity of physicians willing to train in it.
 
I don't think they were all bad at it, I think they just didn't want to do it. Somebody came up the idea of creating an EM specialty, and off they went.
Most internists can't intubate. Most surgeons suck at reading EKGs. Most Anesthesiologists know jack **** about orthopedics.

You also forget that ABIM actively fought against EM becoming a distinct specialty recognised by ABMS. If EM grew out of people not wanting to do it, why fight against the people who actually want to work in the pit?

I've had the (mis)fortune of working with internists and family physicians in the ER who have been doing it for decades and most are awful. a handful have been passable, maybe two legitimately good.
The proof that EM was unnecessary is in today's pudding; a specialty with increasing mid-level encroachment and a paucity of physicians willing to train in it.
You could make the same statement about family medicine or general pediatrics
Even anesthesia at one point was relatively uncompetitive

Specialties fluctuate in competitiveness and popularity all the time. Doesn't say anything about whether or not they are necessary, just that they aren't popular enough to attract US medical students for any number of factors.
 
I think 40-50% of money spent in our healthcare system is money wasted. What an inefficient mess we have created!

First, we should get these damn lawyers out of medicine. Second, physicians should have more say when it comes to end of life care. We should not be keeping 80+ year-old grandma with 5+ serious comorbid conditions on a vent and 2+ pressors.

One of our nephrology attendings (older guy) when I was in residency was great when it comes to these nonsenses. He won't dialyze some of those patients if he thinks it is futile. Our medicine chairman (intesnivist) was kind of like him. He would tell us not to add any more pressors.

I got A LOT more respect for these guys now as an attending seeing the type of BS some docs would do because they are afraid of lawsuits.
 
I think 40-50% of money spent in our healthcare system is money wasted. What an inefficient mess we have created!

First, we should get these damn lawyers out of medicine. Second, physicians should have more say when it comes to end of life care. We should not be keep 80+ year-old grandma with 5+ serious comorbid conditions on a vent with 2+ pressors. Our medicine chairman (intensivist) was kind of like him as well.

One of our nephrology attendings (older one) when I was in residency was great when it comes to these nonsenses. He won't dialyze some of those patients if he thinks it is futile.

I got A LOT more respect for these guys now as an attending seeing the type of BS some docs would do because they are afraid of lawsuits.
I have long maintained that ventilators need to come with a credit card slot to keep it turned on. Family can come bag them 24 hours a day or pay the hospital if they insist on pointless care rather than the collective society. We are the only country in the world that replaces hips and dialyzes octogenarians without regard to utility.
 
I don't think they were all bad at it, I think they just didn't want to do it. Somebody came up the idea of creating an EM specialty, and off they went.

Sometimes, we don't need to create more specialties. For instance, of recent, it's been proposed to create a 'primary care' residency, or an 'urgent care' residency, to meet those needs. Silly. We already have that, it's called Internal or Family Medicine. Maybe we need to emphasize primary care more, within those specialties. Maybe we need to re-structure IM/FM to teach more primary care, but certainly don't need a new specialty.

The proof that EM was unnecessary is in today's pudding; a specialty with increasing mid-level encroachment and a paucity of physicians willing to train in it.
They were bad at it. This is the historical context in which the specialty was developed.
 
I think 40-50% of money spent in our healthcare system is money wasted. What an inefficient mess we have created!

First, we should get these damn lawyers out of medicine. Second, physicians should have more say when it comes to end of life care. We should not be keeping 80+ year-old grandma with 5+ serious comorbid conditions on a vent and 2+ pressors.

One of our nephrology attendings (older guy) when I was in residency was great when it comes to these nonsenses. He won't dialyze some of those patients if he thinks it is futile. Our medicine chairman (intesnivist) was kind of like him. He would tell us not to add any more pressors.

I got A LOT more respect for these guys now as an attending seeing the type of BS some docs would do because they are afraid of lawsuits.
palliative has entered the chat 👋
 
hi

i am a relatively new hospitalist and still in residency mode of not knowing how to say no to things

i think but am not sure that i now have a reputation among the ER docs that I pretty much accept anything and everything.. i should add that some of the other hospitlists have a reputation for being cantankerous and difficult to admit to

this has resulted in them dumping AMS / fall patient with pending CT head which later returned with brain bleed , and acute renal failure patients needing emergent HD with no formal Nephro recs yet or HD access

thankfully the outcomes were OK in these cases , and I learned my lesson about those specific cases , on why I would refuse them in the future

is there any other "Gotchas" to look out for during sign out? do you just refuse anything that has pending labs/imaging? im trying to get a sense of where the line is and whether they have been crossing it with me
Likely will be hospital-specific depending on local policies and culture and resources available at your specific facility, as others have said. But in general, outright refusing some ED admissions as a hospitalist may get you in trouble with admin.

Try to anticipate ahead of time what the patient may end up needing, especially it's is something not easily available at your hospital. In some cases, you should ask the ED to do more work-up and hold admission until key test results are back, or after they have discussed the case with another specialty that will likely get involved in the patient. Especially if the patient may end up needing a service that your hospital doesn't have, and require transfer to another hospital. This will minimize the chance that you get dumped on, and will have to do all the transfer work yourself after admitting the patient when the patient should have appropriately been transferred directly as an ER patient.

In terms of getting dumped on by your own colleagues, or whether it's acceptable to pass on late admissions to the next person, this is largely something to be worked out within your group with guidance from your director/administrator. Ideally your group should come up with a somewhat official rule that everyone is supposed to follow (eg okay to pass on admits within1 hour before your shift ends to the next person), so no one gets too upset. If that still doesn't solve the issue, then the volumes at your place may be too high and more staffing is probably the only real solution.

As for admitting "soft" admits that the ED provider doesn't want to send home (often due to fear of medicolegal implications), besides you admitting and discharging them yourself (which is often a lot of extra work-up, especially if it's already a busy time of the day with other admissions), you may be able to write a short consult note basically saying you're okay with the patient discharging from our standpoint. Some ED docs may be okay with discharging them afterwards themselves, though this will obviously shift a lot of the medicolegal liability to you. If you tell them over the phone that you're okay with them being discharged but without writing anything in the chart, the ED doc will probably still document in their note that you said that before discharging them (which again still puts some of the liability on you either way).

Would also get to know what other specialties at your hospital admit besides hospitalist. Unless your hospital has an official policy that "hospitalist admits everything," some specialties and maybe a few PCPs will at least admit their own established patients. This will require doing a quick chart review if you get called by the ED about one of the patients; they're often too busy or just don't care enough to look at the chart enough to figure this out, and may just default every admission to hospitalist, but you may be able to redirect a few admits to other services by reminding to the ED to check with another potential service first if they will admit.
 
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You guys/gals have a touch job dealing these families with unrealistic expectations.
I'm not in palliative care, but some of my best friends are HPM docs (that is both factually correct and meant as a joke).

The advantage that HPM generally has is the ability to sit down and spend time with the patient and family not focused on the diagnosis and treatment options but the implications of those things in the life and comfort of the patient and family. When you can set aside the "we need to do X, Y or Z" and focus on "what do you want and how can we get you there?" it can often be easier for people to hear it. Also, I can't tell you how many times a second (or 3rd, or 4th) person saying the same thing helps people really understand the problems at hand.
 
EM was created because the above specialties were bad at practicing in the ER.

Most surgeons are **** at reading EKGs and consult for the most mundane medical complaints. Most internists are inept at managing trauma, and have no experience with OB, peds or ortho. Most family physicians are mediocre at best at resuscitation and lack real experience with critically ill patients. There really isn't any specialty that can reliably function accurately and efficiently in an ER.

That being said, external forces make EM doctors practice in a way that is infurating. Admitting a bedbound, demented 90yo is pointless but the system has nowhere to put them. Admitting every HEART score >4 is probably overkill but missed MIs are among the most litigated chief complaints.

Furthermore, for every 1 patient that gets admitted, 8-9 are getting discharged without you ever hearing about them. And that doesn't even begin to touch the topic of nonsensical ED referrals from outpatient physicians for absolutely inappropriate reasons.

I precept IM & FM residents in the ER and in 8 years I haven't met a single one who could honestly function in any ER other than a rural, low volume setting.
As someone trained in IM, I agree with much of the commentary. I'm not afraid to admit that OB, trauma, peds, and ortho are not things I'm very comfortable at doing. I have met a number of FM trained people doing ED, and they simply do not compare even after doing a 1-year emergency fellowship. Surgeons are the only ones I've seen come closest to doing the job of ED at the same level. I agree it doesn't make sense to go back. It would really be hard to have to have one of each specialty on call when you can consolidate. However, I also understand from the other side of the hospital how frustrating it is to see how today's ED doctors don't receive enough training on the floor to truly understand how frustrating some admissions are. I don't think there will ever be some happy middle ground. You can't make an ED doctor who can do everything a medical doctor, OB, peds, etc. does just like you can't make each one of those specialties be an ED doctor
 
Don’t be afraid to decline EM admits. Though they are very busy and deal with codes/traumas and stuff, they are also very superficial at times and miss very obvious things FM/IM people pick up easily. I’ve seen some embarrassing attempted admit dumps right at shift change by EM people, lots of half baked workups, missed gangrenous and ischemic limbs, missed septic stones with severe hydronephrosis, dangerously high hyperkalemia that’s never been rechecked, etc. they would be really bad at inpatient work or even clinic, could never do FM/IM.
 
Don’t be afraid to decline EM admits.
This^
Though they are very busy and deal with codes/traumas and stuff, they are also very superficial at times and miss very obvious things FM/IM people pick up easily. I’ve seen some embarrassing attempted admit dumps right at shift change by EM people, lots of half baked workups, missed gangrenous and ischemic limbs, missed septic stones with severe hydronephrosis, dangerously high hyperkalemia that’s never been rechecked, etc. they would be really bad at inpatient work or even clinic, could never do FM/IM.
Does not align with this^

You can't say "go ahead and push back, decline admits, they don't know what they're doing" while simultaneously saying "they miss a million things, it's amazing more people don't die, they suck at medicine, someone needs to save people from the ED docs".
 
I don’t think he’s saying that. A lot of times I thank the ER doc for going out of the way and tucking in patients nicely. But the factor remains humans Are humans and ER docs do dump at times (sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly)

I just recently accepted a patient whose management across two different ER teams would frankly be beneath expectations of a midyear intern. I again got a rushed seven second sign out and then they just pause waiting for me to accept. It was only after I accepted and had a chance to sit down and look at the computer that I realized how iatrogenic things were. I’m proposing a solution to myself to from now on demand 2 to 3 minutes to hang up and review the case before calling them back to accept or refuse the admission.
 
hi

i am a relatively new hospitalist and still in residency mode of not knowing how to say no to things

i think but am not sure that i now have a reputation among the ER docs that I pretty much accept anything and everything.. i should add that some of the other hospitlists have a reputation for being cantankerous and difficult to admit to

this has resulted in them dumping AMS / fall patient with pending CT head which later returned with brain bleed , and acute renal failure patients needing emergent HD with no formal Nephro recs yet or HD access

thankfully the outcomes were OK in these cases , and I learned my lesson about those specific cases , on why I would refuse them in the future

is there any other "Gotchas" to look out for during sign out? do you just refuse anything that has pending labs/imaging? im trying to get a sense of where the line is and whether they have been crossing it with me

Inpatient dragging their feet on results of things that make no difference in the dispo drive me crazy.
Like the guy with a heart score of 5 and active chest pain is coming in regardless of what the second troponin is.

With regards to the HD patient, why does the ED need to call nephro? Can you as a hospitalist not put in a trialysis cath or ask the ED to? Why must the ED consult nephrology when a hospitalist is perfectly capable of doing so?
 
Because he's your patient while he's still in the ER. Permission granted to play doctor.
So the ER has to consult everything your patient may need while admitted. What is it you do besides put a bed order in?
The er is in charge of triage, initial resuscitation and forming a disposition. Short of them going into v tach from hyper K, dialysis can be arranged by ya’ll. Unless it’s immediate resuscitation and stabilization, not the ER doc’s job.
 
Inpatient dragging their feet on results of things that make no difference in the dispo drive me crazy.
Like the guy with a heart score of 5 and active chest pain is coming in regardless of what the second troponin is.
I’m curious your thoughts on whether or not CT results should come back before calling for an admit?

I had a case in fellowship where the ED doc wanted to admit a patient with belly pain but had no idea what was actually wrong with the patient (bone marrow transplant is essentially an autoadmit when they walk in the building regardless because as a fellow I can’t say no) and told me “well I ordered a CT Abd and that will show us what’s going on” still annoys me to this day because it came off as overly obsessed with door to dispo time rather than actually working up a patient.
 
acute renal failure patients needing emergent HD with no formal Nephro recs yet or HD access

Are we missing where the OP stated that patient needed emergent HD? ED should be calling nephro in this setting.
 
I’m curious your thoughts on whether or not CT results should come back before calling for an admit?

I had a case in fellowship where the ED doc wanted to admit a patient with belly pain but had no idea what was actually wrong with the patient (bone marrow transplant is essentially an autoadmit when they walk in the building regardless because as a fellow I can’t say no) and told me “well I ordered a CT Abd and that will show us what’s going on” still annoys me to this day because it came off as overly obsessed with door to dispo time rather than actually working up a patient.
I once got a STEMI with active chest pain admitted to the oncology service without cards being called because "he has cancer and you admit all the cancer patients" (which was a policy at that time...but also, use some clinical judgement here). When I asked why a code STEMI hadn't been called, I was told "he has cancer, he should probably just go on hospice anyway". Of note, he'd had colon cancer and just completed adjuvant chemo 2 weeks prior.
 
So the ER has to consult everything your patient may need while admitted. What is it you do besides put a bed order in?
The er is in charge of triage, initial resuscitation and forming a disposition. Short of them going into v tach from hyper K, dialysis can be arranged by ya’ll. Unless it’s immediate resuscitation and stabilization, not the ER doc’s job.
Oh look it's that guy.
 
I went to a high end IM residency and we were all eager, and needed to graduate, the standard procedures.
No one even entertained that we would put in dialysis catheters. YMMV.

As a hospitalist, years ago, the administration said if the ED wanted a patient admitted, then we admitted them. That made it a pretty simple decision process. We could always discharge the next day, but we had to help with the 4 hrs or less time in ED process.
 
So the ER has to consult everything your patient may need while admitted. What is it you do besides put a bed order in?
The er is in charge of triage, initial resuscitation and forming a disposition. Short of them going into v tach from hyper K, dialysis can be arranged by ya’ll. Unless it’s immediate resuscitation and stabilization, not the ER doc’s job.
From a nephrology standpoint here's my take:
For AKI with emergent HD indications, hospital medicine doesn't put in lines in most hospitals and IR can be slow to do so (or may not want to do nontunneled lines). Plus I'm not going to drive in to do it for the pittance that placing a vascath pays (better for someone getting paid by an hourly rate who signed up for a procedure centric job to do it). So, it is faster to get things going from the ER, if needed.

Plus, we can help with triage/management: I've seen multiple cases of "mysterious AKI" on which I get consults from the ER - I get a call where someone starts telling me how this is probably a GN that will be interesting for me to evaluate plus needs emergent dialysis for hyperK, etc., etc. Then I ask "have you checked a bladder scan or placed a Foley?" - long silence... then I get a second call about how the patient has put out 2 L in 1hr. I'm not blaming anyone for that - I know the ED is hectic, but we are here to help.

Also for ESRD, I sometimes see guys get admitted when they just need a dialysis session for mild volume overload or their potassium is just at their usual predialysis baseline of 6.0 - I typically know the patients, and can give some background. Can save an admission by dialyzing in the ED (in the hospitals that have that capability) or can arrange to just have the patient go to their HD unit straight from the ED and fit them in on the schedule.

I do realize that certain nephrology groups are more vs. less helpful though.
 
Oh look it's that guy.
So your job is come down, put in basic admit orders and peace out and leave patient care to everyone else?
If by this guy you mean the efficient guy that keeps people moving and alive in the ED dumpster fire that would make most of the guys upstairs jump off the roof if they had to work my shift? Yep right here.
I also now what is and isn’t my responsibility. And doing the entire job of the admitting team isnt.
 
Plus, we can help with triage/management: I've seen multiple cases of "mysterious AKI" on which I get consults from the ER - I get a call where someone starts telling me how this is probably a GN that will be interesting for me to evaluate plus needs emergent dialysis for hyperK, etc., etc. Then I ask "have you checked a bladder scan or placed a Foley?" - long silence... then I get a second call about how the patient has put out 2 L in 1hr. I'm not blaming anyone for that - I know the ED is hectic, but we are here to help.

I have a buddy who is a neurologist - we’ve both known each other since we were interns. Back in residency, he always used to say that if the ER resident called a neuro consult and said “hey bro, I got a great case for ya”, it was almost always nonsense. On the other hand, if the ER didn’t find it too remarkable, that usually meant it *was* something neurology should be seeing asap.
 
I have a buddy who is a neurologist - we’ve both known each other since we were interns. Back in residency, he always used to say that if the ER resident called a neuro consult and said “hey bro, I got a great case for ya”, it was almost always nonsense. On the other hand, if the ER didn’t find it too remarkable, that usually meant it *was* something neurology should be seeing asap.
I'm not sure how you did what you did up there but it has my name in the quoted post from @CptNemo
 
So your job is come down, put in basic admit orders and peace out and leave patient care to everyone else?
If by this guy you mean the efficient guy that keeps people moving and alive in the ED dumpster fire that would make most of the guys upstairs jump off the roof if they had to work my shift? Yep right here.
I also now what is and isn’t my responsibility. And doing the entire job of the admitting team isnt.
You're a real hero everyone at your job definitely thinks you are super good bro.
 
As a hospitalist, years ago, the administration said if the ED wanted a patient admitted, then we admitted them. That made it a pretty simple decision process. We could always discharge the next day, but we had to help with the 4 hrs or less time in ED process.

Yep, that's pretty much standard operating procedure at most hospitals now . . .ER has the authority to admit.

At my hospital, LOS in the ER ends when they call us for admission (even if the patient stays physically in the ER for another day per bed crunch).

So the ER docs frequently call us before any kind of workup is complete. It's careless, they might as well be nurses (in fact, I often get a better story from the ER nurses).
 
Yep, that's pretty much standard operating procedure at most hospitals now . . .ER has the authority to admit.

At my hospital, LOS in the ER ends when they call us for admission (even if the patient stays physically in the ER for another day per bed crunch).

So the ER docs frequently call us before any kind of workup is complete. It's careless, they might as well be nurses (in fact, I often get a better story from the ER nurses).
Yes then I have conversations where I want to admit a chest pain rule out acs having active chest pain with a heart score of 5, and i have to listen to the blissful science when I ask how a second troponin is going to change disposition or immediate management. Crickets. Crickets.
 
At the risk of deflating what is sure to be a great snark fest, I feel like the cases @EMhawkeye is mentioning are not the same as the ones that OP mentioned.

If the ED fails to catch acute renal failure with an emergent dialysis need or a new ICH, that's an ER mistake and you would be correct as a hospitalist in waiting for that CT head to result before admitting or for dialysis line placement from whoever does them at your hospital before they go to the floor because that is going to dramatically change their dispo and possibly have EMTALA implications if you, for example, don't have neurosurgery capability.

But arguing over nephro recommendations for an ESRD missed HD patient who now needs 2L NC and has a K of 5.5 is almost always just wasting your time and the ED's time--you can send a 3 sentence text to the nephro team and move on with your life because nothing is stopping that patient from getting admitted and you might as well get it over with.
 
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