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[sirenomelia]

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I can see the benefits to both sides of these bills. For Clinton's it would be that receiving an abortion abroad would be difficult and not many doctors are available on bases to do such a procedure. Both have risks though. I don't think ultimately any will pass but it is interesting to talk about the reasons why these bills are put up for vote and what they would mean for us should they pass.

Im still unclear why you object to the ultrasound but don't state any such reservations toward the abortion proocedure itself which is far more involved, dangerous and uncomfortable.

 

[Asid]

Found this in my local paper:
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Can...sed+million+Medicare+fraud/6226803/story.html

 

[sirenomelia]

You aren't opposed to the government dictating to physicians what they have to do? Or you're just opposed to it when it's proposed by a political party other than your own?

I don't care what the issue is, any time the lawyers, economists, and otherwise completely-devoid-of-meaningful-skills-and-life-experience politicians start dictating medical practice, they need to be stopped.

Correct im pointing out the hypocrisy that liberals had no qualms with federal policy trampling the conscience and values of the military doctors while turning and using the same argument complaining that this current bill intrudes on women's privacy. Because of vocal militant nazi feminist obession with clearing any and all speed bumps to a womens access to an abortion these places are less regulated than dog kennels. Any reasonable concern for health and safety raised with this issue is immediately met by irrational political confrontation.

 

[Jennet]

Correct im pointing out the hypocrisy that liberals had no qualms with federal policy trampling the conscience and values of the military doctors while turning and using the same argument complaining that this current bill intrudes on women's privacy. Because of vocal militant nazi feminist obession with clearing any and all speed bumps to a womens access to an abortion these places are less regulated than dog kennels. Any reasonable concern for health and safety raised with this issue is immediately met by irrational political confrontation.

First, what do you mean by "federal policy trampling the conscience and values of military doctors"? Second, how is a vaginal ultra sound a reasonable concern for health and safety?

Third, I can't believe you just compared clinics that provide abortions to dog kennels. And called pro-choice females vocal militant nazis. I think you won the award for most inflammatory statement I've ever seen on SDN.

 

[ppfizenm]

Im still unclear why you object to the ultrasound but don't state any such reservations toward the abortion proocedure itself which is far more involved, dangerous and uncomfortable.

The abortion is a legal procedure. I object to the bills for many reasons. One is the ideology behind the bill and the place in which it stems from. Another would be that ultrasound will be billed separately from the abortion itself limiting access for poor people. A 24 hour waiting period for an abortion would be instituted for something that is legal. The mother is given a picture for herself. The US screen has to be placed in the mother's line of view. An unnecessary medical procedure must be preformed before the desired procedure is.

 

[ppfizenm]

Correct im pointing out the hypocrisy that liberals had no qualms with federal policy trampling the conscience and values of the military doctors while turning and using the same argument complaining that this current bill intrudes on women's privacy. Because of vocal militant nazi feminist obession with clearing any and all speed bumps to a womens access to an abortion these places are less regulated than dog kennels. Any reasonable concern for health and safety raised with this issue is immediately met by irrational political confrontation.

Ignoring the inflammatory rhetoric it has always been true that service members give up certain rights when they enter the armed forces.

 

[plumazul]

Correct im pointing out the hypocrisy that liberals had no qualms with federal policy trampling the conscience and values of the military doctors while turning and using the same argument complaining that this current bill intrudes on women's privacy. Because of vocal militant nazi feminist obession with clearing any and all speed bumps to a womens access to an abortion these places are less regulated than dog kennels. Any reasonable concern for health and safety raised with this issue is immediately met by irrational political confrontation.

 

[sirenomelia]

First, what do you mean by "federal policy trampling the conscience and values of military doctors"? Second, how is a vaginal ultra sound a reasonable concern for health and safety?

Third, I can't believe you just compared clinics that provide abortions to dog kennels. And called pro-choice females vocal militant nazis. I think you won the award for most inflammatory statement I've ever seen on SDN.

1) Mandating a provider to perform non-medically necessary pregnancy terminations when they are morally opposed to do so is what i mean.

2) I will concede that the bill put forward as such is designed to promote the woman to reconsider her decision for an abortion. I would contend that confirming a pregnancy is actually present, assessing the gestation and position of the conceptus for purposes to execute the procedure and considering gestational trophoblastic disease or some other endometrial process which HCG levels and/or clinical findings may mimic pregnancy is a health matter and not an intrusive social burden. Abortionists themselves are not against ultrasounds- not because they care about the woman at all but they can bill medicaid for the procedure.

3) Any of us in medicine very long have been confronted in one capacity or another with patients butchered or harmed by these places and I have been shocked at the lack of traction patient recourse are afforded as these places are governed by minimal regulatory oversight because of NAZI FEMINIST influence from groups such as NOW.
This a billion dollar industry that gives alot of money back to them to fight to protect them to go and do their business unfettered by the same standards applied to a real doctor who would take your tonsils out. Ive seen reports in some states that some abortion clinics have not been inspected in 10 years. I am unsure about the present but there was a time when law did not require ANY standards or inspections in some states. Efforts to treat these places comparable to ambulatory surgical centers have been fought by women activist groups claiming undue burden to them forcing shut downs and decreased abortion access.

 

[kestralray]

Correct im pointing out the hypocrisy that liberals had no qualms with federal policy trampling the conscience and values of the military doctors while turning and using the same argument complaining that this current bill intrudes on women's privacy. Because of vocal militant nazi feminist obession with clearing any and all speed bumps to a womens access to an abortion these places are less regulated than dog kennels. Any reasonable concern for health and safety raised with this issue is immediately met by irrational political confrontation.

I would identify myself firmly on the side of pro-choice... but I would also agree that it sounds equally unfair to force military doctors to perform abortions. It was mentioned above that joining the military means giving up certain rights... and I don't know how true/fair that is. I'm curious what the purpose of trying to force these doctor's to be willing to perform abortions is? I'm not sure it's fair for us to be intruding on abortion rights in another country... and why couldn't they just recruit doctor's who were already willing?

However, I take some issue with you putting all the blame on the quality of abortion clinics on "vocal militant nazi feminists." I might not argue the fact that some or even many feminists may be crazy and single minded...but I doubt many of them want abortion so badly that they're willing to compromise women's health for it. Instead, I'd suggest that maybe the whole political controversy about abortion is a sign that abortion clinics have trouble with funding and organization. I think that if the government wants to regulate abortion, they have to show that they're willing to accept it first. Really, your final sentence is complete hyperbole. 😡

 

[ppfizenm]

I would identify myself firmly on the side of pro-choice... but I would also agree that it sounds equally unfair to force military doctors to perform abortions. It was mentioned above that joining the military means giving up certain rights... and I don't know how true/fair that is. I'm curious what the purpose of trying to force these doctor's to be willing to perform abortions is? I'm not sure it's fair for us to be intruding on abortion rights in another country... and why couldn't they just recruit doctor's who were already willing?

However, I take some issue with you putting all the blame on the quality of abortion clinics on "vocal militant nazi feminists." I might not argue the fact that some or even many feminists may be crazy and single minded...but I doubt many of them want abortion so badly that they're willing to compromise women's health for it. Instead, I'd suggest that maybe the whole political controversy about abortion is a sign that abortion clinics have trouble with funding and organization. I think that if the government wants to regulate abortion, they have to show that they're willing to accept it first. Really, your final sentence is complete hyperbole. 😡

When you enter the military it is known that you give up general rights. You can't go where you want, say what you want, do what you want. You follow orders. You also subject yourself to an entirely different of laws (The uniform code or something like that). When you are on an american military base you aren't usually subject to the laws of the country you are in. This was one of the reasons we left Iraq when we did. The Iraqis wanted American service personal to be subject to Iraqi law and the Americans did not. Back to the point however, on the base however I am almost completely certain that you are subject to the laws of your home country, not the country the base resides in. Outside the walls of the base my be a different story.

American military bases house military and non military personal. Generally if you are a physician there you are military personal. Situations imaginably arise where one would want an abortion but unable to get it off the base. I am sure at least a few women were denied abortions in these military bases, enough to drive women's rights groups to push for an bill that mandated military physicians to preform abortions at a patient's request.

I find this equally wrong as the current bills up for debate but at least this side has a bit of traceable logic behind it.

 

[sirenomelia]

When you enter the military it is known that you give up general rights. You can't go where you want, say what you want, do what you want. You follow orders. You also subject yourself to an entirely different of laws (The uniform code or something like that). When you are on an american military base you aren't usually subject to the laws of the country you are in. This was one of the reasons we left Iraq when we did. The Iraqis wanted American service personal to be subject to Iraqi law and the Americans did not. Back to the point however, on the base however I am almost completely certain that you are subject to the laws of your home country, not the country the base resides in. Outside the walls of the base my be a different story.

American military bases house military and non military personal. Generally if you are a physician there you are military personal. Situations imaginably arise where one would want an abortion but unable to get it off the base. I am sure at least a few women were denied abortions in these military bases, enough to drive women's rights groups to push for an bill that mandated military physicians to preform abortions at a patient's request.

I find this equally wrong as the current bills up for debate but at least this side has a bit of traceable logic behind it.

Right so this debate now is relatively quiet as compared to when Clinton tried to do this in 1994 or so I think. In joining the armed forces you accept many restrictions on your life from your commitment and you will be relocated as per service needs but making someone do this against their values whether the woman wants this procedure or not; fortunately this wasnt enforced. To the general public prochoice, prolife to each his own but you all obviously havent experience the storm of NARAL and NOW and what they (atleast had) always said and done and advocated abortion on demand all 40 weeks at woman's request whenever the womans wants to no questions asked. They are that wacked.