New medical school opening in.....

[Gutierrez001]

Well FIU announced on July 8 that they will be opening the first public medical school in S.FL. First class set to graduate by 2011.
http://news.fiu.edu/releases/2004/07-09_medical.htm

this is great news for S.FL pre-med student (like me) becuz tution is going to only be $10K compare to Nova or UM $25-30K a year. I know alot of people are going to B*tch about this ,but all well

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Garuda]

I've never heard of FIU, but good for Florida. Huge shortage of doctors down there.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Sweet dude. FL is a great state.

 

[Fermata]

It's good to see a school that's trying to take student debt into consideration.

 

[Gutierrez001]

I thought more people would B*tch becuz a new school is going to open.

 

[Fermata]

I thought more people would B*tch becuz a new school is going to open.

Currently, the pie is big enough for everyone.

 

[IndyZX]

no, plenty of people bitched when this was discussed a few weeks ago.

 

[TRUE]

no, plenty of people bitched when this was discussed a few weeks ago.

Indeed. There were multiple threads about FIU opening a school and countless people went ape**** about it. Just wait...they'll be here.

 

[sinfin]

Indeed. There were multiple threads about FIU opening a school and countless people went ape**** about it. Just wait...they'll be here.

Why are ppl angry about a med school opening up?

 

[TRUE]

Why are ppl angry about a med school opening up?

They complained about a variety of things including the fact that florida had so many medical schools already (which is not true, really), that florida didn't need the extra spots (instead the schools should be built out west), that doctors didn't stay in Florida because of malpractice, not because there weren't enough schools and finally, my favorite: More medical schools are going to drive doctors out of work since it's going to be SOOO hard to find patients and because of this doctors salaries are going to drop.

 

[devildoc2]

Within 5 years, Florida is going to have 9 FREAKING MEDICAL SCHOOLS! THATS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!



University of Miami

University of Miami/Florida Atlantic University (separate school, separate admissions, separate everything)

Lake Erie COM: Bradenton campus

Nova Southeastern COM: Ft Lauderdale

Florida State University

University of Central Florida (also planning a new med school)

University of Florida

Florida International University: Miami

University of South Florida: Tampa


I'm sorry, but 9 medical schools (5 of them opened within the last 5 years) is ridiculous.

 

[trauma_junky]

Within 5 years, Florida is going to have 9 FREAKING MEDICAL SCHOOLS! THATS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!



University of Miami

University of Miami/Florida Atlantic University (separate school, separate admissions, separate everything)

Lake Erie COM: Bradenton campus

Nova Southeastern COM: Ft Lauderdale

Florida State University

University of Central Florida (also planning a new med school)

University of Florida

Florida International University: Miami

University of South Florida: Tampa


I'm sorry, but 9 medical schools (5 of them opened within the last 5 years) is ridiculous.

No it isn't considering we are the only country in the world that underproduces physicians compared to its population and needs.

 

[MacGyver]

No it isn't considering we are the only country in the world that underproduces physicians compared to its population and needs.

Where did you get such a ridiculous idea? Thats a load of bull

Hell, our neighbor to the north Canada is in a perpetual doctor shortage. Of course, they have plenty of med school seats, but up to 40% of their graduates LEAVE to come to the USA.

Call me crazy, but I think it has to do something with socialized medicine.

 

[MacGyver]

The overall medical school accept rate is now over 50%. Thats unprecedented since the early 1900s when everybody and their brother had a quack medical school operation.

With all these new schools (we're up to 10 new schools in the last 10 years) that % is going to climb even higher. We are quickly catching up to law schools in terms of acceptance rate!

 

[Gleevec]

They complained about a variety of things including the fact that florida had so many medical schools already (which is not true, really), that florida didn't need the extra spots (instead the schools should be built out west), that doctors didn't stay in Florida because of malpractice, not because there weren't enough schools and finally, my favorite: More medical schools are going to drive doctors out of work since it's going to be SOOO hard to find patients and because of this doctors salaries are going to drop.

Well, there are those who are against opening up new medical schools on principle because they saw what uncontrolled proliferation of law schools did to lawyers.

And then there are those, such as myself, who believe that Miami doesnt need a second medical school, but that a rural underserved medical school in Florida would be just fine.

In any case, it is real easy to dismiss the marginal growth of medical schools because most people are very short-term minded. In the long-term, however, its not good to just open up medical schools left and right. Indeed, the Flexner report addressed the vocational nature of medical training due to the rampant proliferation of medical 'schools' in the early half of the 20th century and recommended they be closed down.

Also, while it is true the US underproduces medical graduates, this is easily made up for by foreign graduates, many of whom are willing to practice in rural areas that many Americans would consider undesireable but foreigners would love to work in. If we keep opening up urban medical schools, at the cost of these foreigners practicing in rural areas, we exacerbate the growing inequality in care between urban and rural areas.

But IMHO, Miami doesnt need a second medical school. But rural underserved Florida (northern areas perhaps?) would be fine. Unfortunately, this is just a money grab by FIU which will marginally harm us all and do little to help underserved populations (even though they state that is their mission, if it were truly their mission rather than a poor attempt to mislead people, they would have opened up the school in a rural area).

 

[flighterdoc]

No it isn't considering we are the only country in the world that underproduces physicians compared to its population and needs.

Thats completely untrue. Canada for one produces far fewer physicians than they need, much worse than the US.

About the only country I know of that has an excess of physicians is Israel. Thats due to having four? schools of their own plus a LOT of immigrant physicians.

 

[flighterdoc]

Where did you get such a ridiculous idea? Thats a load of bull

Hell, our neighbor to the north Canada is in a perpetual doctor shortage. Of course, they have plenty of med school seats, but up to 40% of their graduates LEAVE to come to the USA.

Call me crazy, but I think it has to do something with socialized medicine.

They don't have enough seats, either. Their classes tend to be pretty small, and they are VERY selective. They also have fewer schools than California, despite having about the same population (33 million).

There has been a LOT of discussion on Canadian news about the situation, especially in the most populous provinces.

On good news, my friend in Kingston (been there a year) has FINALLY been able to find a primary care physician. She had to go through the Canadian forces (she's in the Canadian Army Reserves) and Kingston has a large military community, so she was able to talk her way in to their clinic. She hasn't been able to find a physician ANYWHERE within driving distance that would take her on as a patient, they all maxed out.

 

[flighterdoc]

Well, there are those who are against opening up new medical schools on principle because they saw what uncontrolled proliferation of law schools did to lawyers.

And then there are those, such as myself, who believe that Miami doesnt need a second medical school, but that a rural underserved medical school in Florida would be just fine.

In any case, it is real easy to dismiss the marginal growth of medical schools because most people are very short-term minded. In the long-term, however, its not good to just open up medical schools left and right. Indeed, the Flexner report addressed the vocational nature of medical training due to the rampant proliferation of medical 'schools' in the early half of the 20th century and recommended they be closed down.

Also, while it is true the US underproduces medical graduates, this is easily made up for by foreign graduates, many of whom are willing to practice in rural areas that many Americans would consider undesireable but foreigners would love to work in. If we keep opening up urban medical schools, at the cost of these foreigners practicing in rural areas, we exacerbate the growing inequality in care between urban and rural areas.

But IMHO, Miami doesnt need a second medical school. But rural underserved Florida (northern areas perhaps?) would be fine. Unfortunately, this is just a money grab by FIU which will marginally harm us all and do little to help underserved populations (even though they state that is their mission, if it were truly their mission rather than a poor attempt to mislead people, they would have opened up the school in a rural area).

Keep in mind that a medical school needs to (ideally) associate with a large hospital or cluster of hospitals, that have training staff. Are there any such hospitals in rural Florida? If they're going to farm students out a'la the carib schools, it doesn't matter much where it is, why not in Miami, where it's nice?

Besides, I don't think that simply having a medical school in the middle of a rural area does anything for getting more care for people in rural areas. If anything, it might convince people that they never "want to be in the sticks again".

Now, having medical students near south beach might be distracting.....

 

[Gleevec]

Keep in mind that a medical school needs to (ideally) associate with a large hospital or cluster of hospitals, that have training staff. Are there any such hospitals in rural Florida? If they're going to farm students out a'la the carib schools, it doesn't matter much where it is, why not in Miami, where it's nice?

Besides, I don't think that simply having a medical school in the middle of a rural area does anything for getting more care for people in rural areas. If anything, it might convince people that they never "want to be in the sticks again".

Now, having medical students near south beach might be distracting.....

Well, think of the other side though. You will have students who know they want to practice in Miami lets say, but will just lie during interviews and say they want to practice in a rural underserved area. At least if the school is located in a semirural area, they would have to put their money (and their rear ends) where their mouth is for 4 years.

Im not saying you stick a medical school in the middle of nowhere. Im not familiar with the geography of northern Florida, but let me give you a correlary. In TX the western portion is almost completely rural. Most of that is along the poor border regions. So TX is considering opening a new medical school in El Paso, a fairly large city surrounded by a poorer rural population. Im not saying this is ideal either, or will somehow make people practice in a rural area. But what FIU is doing is the equivalent of saying opening up a new medical school in a city will somehow attract people to rural medicine, which I feel is complete bunk.

Given the choice between placing a school in a rural area and having students put their money where their mouth is, versus having students lie during interviews to go to a urban school with the real intent of practicing in an urban area, Ill take the former 100% of the time.

 

[flighterdoc]

Well, think of the other side though. You will have students who know they want to practice in Miami lets say, but will just lie during interviews and say they want to practice in a rural underserved area. At least if the school is located in a semirural area, they would have to put their money (and their rear ends) where their mouth is for 4 years.

Im not saying you stick a medical school in the middle of nowhere. Im not familiar with the geography of northern Florida, but let me give you a correlary. In TX the western portion is almost completely rural. Most of that is along the poor border regions. So TX is considering opening a new medical school in El Paso, a fairly large city surrounded by a poorer rural population. Im not saying this is ideal either, or will somehow make people practice in a rural area. But what FIU is doing is the equivalent of saying opening up a new medical school in a city will somehow attract people to rural medicine, which I feel is complete bunk.

Given the choice between placing a school in a rural area and having students put their money where their mouth is, versus having students lie during interviews to go to a urban school with the real intent of practicing in an urban area, Ill take the former 100% of the time.

I understand, but I think it's already been tried and it doesn't work. King-Drew, for instance, supposedly exists to train a lot of inner-city docs. GWU also, I think? Meharry and Marshall? What are the stats?

After 4 years of medical school, and 3-7+ more of residency and fellowships, I doubt that anyone still has the same goals. Also, certain specialties simply can't be supported in rural areas, there's not enough business to keep their skills up, much less pay them. Would you want a neurosurgeon that has only performed 4 surgeries in the last two years cutting into your head?

A better way to get rural healthcare is something like NHSC scholarships, which take graduate providers (physicians and midlevels) and actually put them out in the rural areas. Those that like it will stay, those that don't will get replaced. But, at least they're in a position after training to make a considered decision.

Also, don't forget you not only have to get the students to "put their money where their mouths are" but also the professors - and what sort of high quality professors would you get? If they wanted to be in rural areas, they wouldn't have gone into academic medicine.

There are advantages (in theory), you could have low costs of living. But, schools will jack up the tuition to pay for the cost of instructors.

 

[rtmcad2319]

Gleevec, if you don't mind me asking what state are you a resident of?

 

[goingindebt]

FL does not need more medical schools.. it needs mal practice reform.......

 

[Gleevec]

I understand, but I think it's already been tried and it doesn't work. King-Drew, for instance, supposedly exists to train a lot of inner-city docs. GWU also, I think? Meharry and Marshall? What are the stats?

After 4 years of medical school, and 3-7+ more of residency and fellowships, I doubt that anyone still has the same goals. Also, certain specialties simply can't be supported in rural areas, there's not enough business to keep their skills up, much less pay them. Would you want a neurosurgeon that has only performed 4 surgeries in the last two years cutting into your head?

A better way to get rural healthcare is something like NHSC scholarships, which take graduate providers (physicians and midlevels) and actually put them out in the rural areas. Those that like it will stay, those that don't will get replaced. But, at least they're in a position after training to make a considered decision.

Also, don't forget you not only have to get the students to "put their money where their mouths are" but also the professors - and what sort of high quality professors would you get? If they wanted to be in rural areas, they wouldn't have gone into academic medicine.

There are advantages (in theory), you could have low costs of living. But, schools will jack up the tuition to pay for the cost of instructors.

So based on this can I assume you want medical schools to proliferate, leading to an even greater surplus of physicians in urban areas and less physicians in rural areas?

Look, I never claimed that placing a med school in rural anywhere is a panacea, but if a city the size of Miami (47th largest) can have two medical schools why not Charlotte or El Paso or Austin or Las Vegas or countless other cities (in the case of these 4, Im not aware of a medical school being there).

And in terms of attracting professors, Im not saying itll be easy, but somehow East Carolina University and tons of other schools located in not so major cities do just fine. You can always alter compensation for doctors and residents who work there as an extra incentive.

I mean, Im really confused by your argument now fighterdoc. So you want more urban medical schools in smaller cities that already have a major academic center for what reason? I mean, if you're going to "award" a medical school to anywhere, at least pick a city:

1. without a medical school
2. surrounded by an underserved area
3. a huge city that still lacks enough doctors

Miami hardly qualifies for any of those.

 

[flighterdoc]

So based on this can I assume you want medical schools to proliferate, leading to an even greater surplus of physicians in urban areas and less physicians in rural areas?

Look, I never claimed that placing a med school in rural anywhere is a panacea, but if a city the size of Miami (47th largest) can have two medical schools why not Charlotte or El Paso or Austin or Las Vegas or countless other cities (in the case of these 4, Im not aware of a medical school being there).

And in terms of attracting professors, Im not saying itll be easy, but somehow East Carolina University and tons of other schools located in not so major cities do just fine. You can always alter compensation for doctors and residents who work there as an extra incentive.

I mean, Im really confused by your argument now fighterdoc. So you want more urban medical schools in smaller cities that already have a major academic center for what reason? I mean, if you're going to "award" a medical school to anywhere, at least pick a city:

1. without a medical school
2. surrounded by an underserved area
3. a huge city that still lacks enough doctors

Miami hardly qualifies for any of those.

It's two different questions. I think we need more physicians, and they need to be convinced to move out to the more rural areas. BTW, Las Vegas has the new Touro DO campus (Henderson, actually, but close enough).

I actually gave this some thought, when I decided to go to medical school. I thought that a very boutique medical school (think $100K / year tuition) with somewhat relaxed entry standards (caribbean type) would be a good business investment. Locate it out where land is cheap (an closed military base, for instance), get students, professors, cadavers, etc and go to town. Then I found out about the LCME I guess I'll have to earn my money the old fashioned way - know a billionaire widow I can marry?

And the city of Miami may be 47th in size, but they have a catchment area that is rather larger. It's like saying the city of Los Angeles is only 3 million people - true enough, but when you start adding in all the adjacent little towns that you go through getting from one part of LA to another, the actual figure is more like 8 million.

But, I don't think that having a medical school in a smaller city (Austin, for example) is a guarantee of getting people to practice in rural areas, any more than having a school in Death Valley would be. Those that will practice in rural areas will, those that wont will lie up and down to get a seat in such a school.

 

[Gleevec]

But, I don't think that having a medical school in a smaller city (Austin, for example) is a guarantee of getting people to practice in rural areas, any more than having a school in Death Valley would be. Those that will practice in rural areas will, those that wont will lie up and down to get a seat in such a school.

I understand your concern. But for me, it seems like its a lot more likely that someone who is willing to go to a rural medical school for four years would want to practice in a rural area than someone who is willing to go to an urban medical school who simply has to say they want to practice in a rural area. I really do feel as if it is a "put your money where your mouth is" situation for that very reason. Im not saying its a guarantee, but if someone is going to lie about practicing in a rural area, I would rather have them consider the fact that they will have to stay in such an area for 4 years rather than just lie and be done with it as they go clubbing downtown.

 

[flighterdoc]

I understand your concern. But for me, it seems like its a lot more likely that someone who is willing to go to a rural medical school for four years would want to practice in a rural area than someone who is willing to go to an urban medical school who simply has to say they want to practice in a rural area. I really do feel as if it is a "put your money where your mouth is" situation for that very reason. Im not saying its a guarantee, but if someone is going to lie about practicing in a rural area, I would rather have them consider the fact that they will have to stay in such an area for 4 years rather than just lie and be done with it as they go clubbing downtown.

How many of the practicing physicians in the largest metropolitan cities (NY, LA, Chicago, DC, etc) went to a med school in a smaller town?

How about most of them? Places like ECU or MCG? Not exactly in party towns. BTW, last time I was there (which was quite a while ago) Austin (one of your choice locations) was a HUGE party town.

 

[Gleevec]

How many of the practicing physicians in the largest metropolitan cities (NY, LA, Chicago, DC, etc) went to a med school in a smaller town?

How about most of them? Places like ECU or MCG? Not exactly in party towns. BTW, last time I was there (which was quite a while ago) Austin (one of your choice locations) was a HUGE party town.

Actually it isnt a choice location, I think there are a lot of locations that are more in need of a medical school than Austin (which has San Antonio and UTSA an hour a way). But that was kind of my point, Austin doesnt even HAVE a medical school, is an hour away from a major academic medical center, and the state of TX still decided to award the new school to El Paso. That took some moral courage, seeing as how Austin is the much more chic location.

And I think you're not reading my posts, or maybe you're not understand why you're saying. I said at least by placing the medical school near a rural area you make students choose a rural area to live in 4 years. I didnt say this would make sure they stuck around, but it is WAY better than what you suggest. I'll repeat this again since it seems you missed it the first two times I said it. I dont believe placing a med school near a rural area guarantees that students will go into rural underserved practice, but its BETTER than the alternative of simply having people lie to get into an urban school and then simply practice in an urban area. At least students would have to put their money where their mouth is for 4 years, which I consider to be a benefit over what you suggest. But again, it doesnt guarantee anything, but its better than just having people lie to take advantage of the system.

From your posts, it sounds like you want medical schools to open left and right in small cities with a major academic medical center already. Is this what you really want? What exactly are you arguing for here? Because it sounds like you want medical schools to become more like law schools or even pre-Flexner vocational shops that spring up just about anywhere someone wants to make a quick buck.

 

[Dr.Bevo]

How many of the practicing physicians in the largest metropolitan cities (NY, LA, Chicago, DC, etc) went to a med school in a smaller town?

How about most of them? Places like ECU or MCG? Not exactly in party towns. BTW, last time I was there (which was quite a while ago) Austin (one of your choice locations) was a HUGE party town.

Since when is Austin a small city? In terms of population, it's bigger than Miami. (though Miami might be bigger when you add in suburban populations)

The problem of docs not living in rural areas won't be solved by putting med schools in the boondocks. It won't be solved by just opening up more med schools either. There has to be a change in what makes rural medical care so unappealing to many medical graduates.

A better solution would be to alter medicare to increase reimbursement for doctors practicing in underserved areas. It would be hard to work out the logistics on this though. Just a thought.

 

[flighterdoc]

Actually it isnt a choice location, I think there are a lot of locations that are more in need of a medical school than Austin (which has San Antonio and UTSA an hour a way). But that was kind of my point, Austin doesnt even HAVE a medical school, is an hour away from a major academic medical center, and the state of TX still decided to award the new school to El Paso. That took some moral courage, seeing as how Austin is the much more chic location.

And I think you're not reading my posts, or maybe you're not understand why you're saying. I said at least by placing the medical school near a rural area you make students choose a rural area to live in 4 years. I didnt say this would make sure they stuck around, but it is WAY better than what you suggest. I'll repeat this again since it seems you missed it the first two times I said it. I dont believe placing a med school near a rural area guarantees that students will go into rural underserved practice, but its BETTER than the alternative of simply having people lie to get into an urban school and then simply practice in an urban area. At least students would have to put their money where their mouth is for 4 years, which I consider to be a benefit over what you suggest. But again, it doesnt guarantee anything, but its better than just having people lie to take advantage of the system.

From your posts, it sounds like you want medical schools to open left and right in small cities with a major academic medical center already. Is this what you really want? What exactly are you arguing for here? Because it sounds like you want medical schools to become more like law schools or even pre-Flexner vocational shops that spring up just about anywhere someone wants to make a quick buck.

I was using "choice" in the sense that you chose that city.

No, I don't want pre-Flexner days to return. However, I think the LCME needs to ease up a bit, and open more seats in more schools. Obviously, there is a finite limit on the amount of talent available for teaching, but I doubt that we're near that limit in any respect.

But, putting the new UT school in El Paso won't have a substantial effect on the number of students that go into rural areas. For example, Ben Gurion (in Israel) requires an international medicine clerkship as part of the curriculum - students have to go and spend time in Africa, Asia, etc helping the (really, truly) poor. I doub that a substantial number of their grads make that their lifes work.

There should be incentives to get people to work in rural areas, besides employing FMG's. Of course, most of these are primary care specialties, and many people want specialties that have more prestige or more money. Rather than putting a school out there, some sort of financial inducement might work better - for example, California has a loan repayment program for physicians working in rural (more or less, it turns out I live in a designated underserved area) areas - work a year (at more or less regular wages) and get a year of med school paid off. And, the money for this comes from MD licensing fees.

 

[drlexygoat]

To the OP, are you thinking about going to FIU's med school??? Their first class is a LONG way off then....

One note about Univ of Central Florida (my alma matter)... they're moving forward with plans for a med school right now. I know because I was in really tight with the President's office when I did my undergrad there. It's going to be at least 7-8 years away, but there's definitely hope in the future. Orlando has some GREAT hospitals (Florida Hospital is the 3rd largest chain of hospitals in the US, 2nd to UCBerkley) for years 3 and 4.

 

[gujuDoc]

Within 5 years, Florida is going to have 9 FREAKING MEDICAL SCHOOLS! THATS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!



University of Miami

University of Miami/Florida Atlantic University (separate school, separate admissions, separate everything)

Lake Erie COM: Bradenton campus

Nova Southeastern COM: Ft Lauderdale

Florida State University

University of Central Florida (also planning a new med school)

University of Florida

Florida International University: Miami

University of South Florida: Tampa


I'm sorry, but 9 medical schools (5 of them opened within the last 5 years) is ridiculous.

This is just about as many as there are in New York and California:

Let's take a look and you'll see what I'm talking about:


NY has 12 MD schools plus NYCOM which is a DO school

What about California which has 8 MD schools and 1 DO school.

What about Ohio which has 6 MD programs and 1 DO program

What about Illinois which has 7 MD programs and 1 DO program

What about Pennsylvania which has 6 MD programs and 1 DO program??

I think I arrest my case.

The need for doctors is too great, that there is enough room for everyone to have patients.

 

[Fermata]

All I can say.....is that you people from Texas and Florida are SPOILED.