New Pharmacy Schools

[Aznfarmerboi]

This is for people already in pharmacy schools or pharmacists.

Are there any new pharmacy schools opening up in your state? Are you concerned? What do you think about it?

In New York State, we had University of Buffalo, Albany, Long Island University, and St Johns University. For the most part, we met demand of pharmacists with those few schools. However in the last year, St John Fisher opened and now Touro is about to open another one. It wont be long before we have a surplus (a really serious debate) here. I think NYS can handle the new students from St John Fisher, but not from a 2nd one. Touro opening up would mean three pharmacy schools in New York City graduating an average of 750 pharmacists at least per year!

How about you guys? Is there anyway we can prevent a school from opening?

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[DoctorRx1986]

I'm going to be a P1 student at NSU in Florida this fall. So far, I haven't heard of any new schools opening up in this state. To be honest, I am a little concerned with all the new pharmacy schools opening up throughout the country. I feel, though I may be wrong, that at this pace, the pharmacist shortage will be met within a decade or less. And we all know that wouldn't be very convenient for any of us or would it? I really hope admission into pharmacy school becomes ultra-competitive to the point that the majority of applicants do not get in. That'll continue ensuring our six figure salary! Why would we ever want the shortage to be overcome or a surplus? If that happened, chances are, our salaries would go down significantly. Hell, with nearly $170,000 in debt, there is no way I would take a paycut back to a measly $50,000 per year after 6-8 years of school.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

More people means less candidates with high-level ability, which means I will become more competent against the curve by default. Rock.

 

[PharmaTope]

market will become flooded.

 

[Somatic]

Those of us already in pharmacy school should be very frustrated about this. I read an article recently, and I will find it again and post the link soon, but the conclussion was that at this rate, a surplus of pharmacists is inevitable. I worked very hard to get into pharmacy school, but with all the new schools opening, I am seeing all these people with GPAs in the low 3.0 range and PCAT scores in the low 70s getting in (though at the price of very high tuition, approaching $40 k/year at many private schools ). Something needs to be done, we need to start a petetion to ACPE to shut some of these schools down and to not allow any more schools to start up. Pharmacy schools exagerate the shortage as a way of recruiting students. The shortage really isn't that bad right now despite what they tell you. It's very frustrating- we just had a private school open up in my state and the intern market has become saturated -thanks to this new school there are interns all over the place-many interns are jobless actually and soon this will happen with pharmacists across the US. It's scary, once AMP goes into effect, it's predicted that over 10,000 pharmacies will be forced to shut down. WHat does the future hold for pharmacy?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Unfortunately, the medical school accreditation orgs tried to set a cap in medical schools but courts ruled that they weren't allowed to. At least that's what my pharm school dean told me. Using that precedence, there isn't much the ACPE can do. If a school meets the criteria for accreditation, they have to accredit them. They are diluting the quality of pharmacists.

Oh well. Really, it's only going to affect you if you aren't a decent pharmacist. Once you get out, make a niche for yourself and you'll be fine.

 

[omnione]

If a school meets the criteria for accreditation, they have to accredit them.

Couldn't they jack up the accreditation standards?

 

[whitewasheddesi]

Jefferson is opening a pharmacy school in fall, and I am hearing rumors that drexel is opening one in 2010. My only concern is losing teachers. From what I hear, we have lost some good teachers and administrators to Jefferson because they got high positions with high pays offerred there. But other than that, nah. Jefferson has always had good relationships with USP, especially their residency programs and our graduates. Some of our clinical pharmacy faculty also practices there.

Philadelphia is having many pharmacy schools now. Starting fall, PA will have 7 - USP, temple, Upitt, LECOM, Wilkes, Jefferson and Duquesne

pfsh, no wonder compared to new mexico pharmacists have little authorities in PA

 

[Somatic]

Couldn't they set a limit on the number of students a school can graduate? Like no school can graduate more than 100 students/year as an accredidation standard? Or require very low faculty to student ratios? Perhaps ACPE gets more money by having more pharmacy schools out there? It's certain that some of these schools are making big bucks with all the students they're accepting and the ridiculously high tuition they're charging, which is wrong. These presidents, deans and other admistrators at these schools that are pumping out pharmacists are making big $$$$$$ at the expense of the quality of future pharmacists.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Couldn't they jack up the accreditation standards?

How? Most things you'd come up with probably wouldn't jive too well legally.

 

[bananaface]

How? Most things you'd come up with probably wouldn't jive too well legally.

They already have in the past few years. Schools now have to apply for and be granted pre-candidate status in order to qualify for the next stage. (Go HICP!) There are a bunch of other changes too.

 

[PharmDstudent]

They could make the NAPLEX harder. (Who cares about how many pharmacists graduate when the weaker students can't pass their final exam?)

 

[RxWildcat]

Yeah, instead of minimally competent maybe they could raise the standards to mostly competent.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Yeah, instead of minimally competent maybe they could raise the standards to mostly competent.

Exactly!

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Yeah, instead of minimally competent maybe they could raise the standards to mostly competent.

I would support this too. The point is we dont have a shortage of pharmacists as they claim. We dont need 6-7 pharmacy schools in one state and definitely do not need 3 in one city. I support the idea of making pharmacy a lot more competitive but that doesnt address new pharmacy schools stealing money from gulliable pre pharmacy students!

A Wall street journal article show that how because there are 200 + law schools, most lawyers are unemployed or reviewing documents for 20/hour with 100k+ debt. I for one do not want to see this happen to pharmacy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/24/the-dark-side-of-legal-job-market/

Keep in mind this was from 2007; before the official recession. Word among my friends out there are that a lot of real estate lawyers, bank lawyers, etc are even lucky to have a job right now if they are not taking pay cuts left and right. I am sure bankruptcy lawyers are having hell of a time though.

WVU, you seem to be the most aware on this issue. what do you recommend?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I don't think making the NAPLEX harder would solve much. People can study up for standardized tests. Plus, if you can make it though pharmacy school, you have to have at least some brains and pharmacy isn't that difficult. How hard can they really make it? If it became that much of a deal, I could just see the hucksters out there compiling every question on the exam and setting up some nice black market economies off of the thing.

The way to beat it is to make yourself a niche and be a better pharmacist than the next guy. I don't think there is anything we can do about it.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

They already have in the past few years. Schools now have to apply for and be granted pre-candidate status in order to qualify for the next stage. (Go HICP!) There are a bunch of other changes too.

Yeah, but HICP was just a special example of idiocy. If a school wants to set up a legit program and they hire people with credentials, the ACPE has to let them go through the process.

 

[medicalCPA]

I don't think making the NAPLEX harder would solve much. People can study up for standardized tests. Plus, if you can make it though pharmacy school, you have to have at least some brains and pharmacy isn't that difficult. How hard can they really make it? If it became that much of a deal, I could just see the hucksters out there compiling every question on the exam and setting up some nice black market economies off of the thing.

The way to beat it is to make yourself a niche and be a better pharmacist than the next guy. I don't think there is anything we can do about it.

I agree with this.

But I want to ask, if the courts ruled that there could not be a cap on medical schools, how come the number of medical schools was kept constant for 20+ years (leading to a "critical shortfall" of doctors)?

 

[Somatic]

Here's another possible solution: what if current pharmacist preceptors refused to be preceptors for some of these crappy private schools that accept a buttload of students?

 

[Somatic]

Read this article and keep in mind that it was written almost 3 years ago. How many new colleges of pharmacy have started up since then?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/511648


We are going to need to put up a fight against some of these new colleges of pharmacy if we want to ensure the future quality and salaries of pharmacists. I don't think WVUPharm2007's idea of just being a better pharmacist is going to protect you from having to take a pay cut. Pharmacists salaries are so high right now mostly because of the shortage. I don't want to let them just get away with it... There has to be something we can do to stop them! Who's with me??

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Here's another possible solution: what if current pharmacist preceptors refused to be preceptors for some of these crappy private schools that accept a buttload of students?

If it got to that, these schools would then just start paying people to be preceptors for their students. They charge $30k/year....they can easily afford it.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

We are going to need to put up a fight against some of these new colleges of pharmacy if we want to ensure the future quality and salaries of pharmacists. I don't think WVUPharm2007's idea of just being a better pharmacist is going to protect you from having to take a pay cut. Pharmacists salaries are so high right now mostly because of the shortage. I don't want to let them just get away with it... There has to be something we can do to stop them! Who's with me??

No offense or anything, but this isn't some sudden epiphany. The established schools and pharmacy orgs have been perturbed by this trend for years now...and they've gone through the same thought processes. There isn't much we can do unless someone starts up some stuff with the federal courts about how more pharmacists would hurt the public health. Pharmacist surpluses have happened before. Wages have never decreased, they just did't increase during these periods. If push came to shove, we'd just be making $100k/year and that's it.

 

[Taurus]

I agree with this.

But I want to ask, if the courts ruled that there could not be a cap on medical schools, how come the number of medical schools was kept constant for 20+ years (leading to a "critical shortfall" of doctors)?

Because unlike business, law, or pharmacy school, med school requires doing clinical rotations at a hospital. There are only so many slots available at the hospital to maintain the quality of the education. That naturally limits class sizes.

What do you need to open a business, law, or pharmacy school? Some professors, a lecture hall, and group of gullible students with $$$ in their eyes willing to shell out loan money. That's why an MBA or JD from a non-top 20 school is pretty much worthless. Will pharm join their ranks? We'll see.

 

[Taurus]

If push came to shove, we'd just be making $100k/year and that's it.

I still remember when becoming a pharm was just 5 years after high school.

For 5 years of schooling, 100k is great money.

However, as they are pushing to make the pharmD 4 years after college, then 100k is not so great money anymore. Heck, a dentist can make 200k for the same amount of schooling.

You can thank those ivory tower visionaries for your current situation.

 

[medicalCPA]

I still remember when becoming a pharm was just 5 years after high school.

For 5 years of schooling, 100k is great money.

However, as they are pushing to make the pharmD 4 years after college, then 100k is not so great money anymore. Heck, a dentist can make 200k for the same amount of schooling.

You can thank those ivory tower visionaries for your current situation.

Then they should make it 4 years after college. That way, there would be less financial incentive for those who want to be pharmacists, since other professions offer more pay for less schooling. The number of pharmacists will drop, weeding out those in it for the money.

I'm probably wrong...

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Because unlike business, law, or pharmacy school, med school requires doing clinical rotations at a hospital. There are only so many slots available at the hospital to maintain the quality of the education. That naturally limits class sizes.

What do you need to open a business, law, or pharmacy school? Some professors, a lecture hall, and group of gullible students with $$$ in their eyes willing to shell out loan money. That's why an MBA or JD from a non-top 20 school is pretty much worthless. Will pharm join their ranks? We'll see.

Right! Because there is no clinical or experiential component to the pharmacy education process. And you don't need any specialized equipment or lab space because we don't do that stuff either. Nothing practical or hands-on. Just an empty room and some chairs and you've got a pharmacy school. I should open one in my basement...

 

[BMBiology]

I dont see a problem with having more pharmacy schools. You are fooling yourself if you are claiming there is no shortage. There is certainly a shortage and the damand will continue to grow as other non-traditional businesses start to open more pharmacies (e.g. Target, Vons, etc).

If the shortage contines to grow and the demand is not met, the law will change and let non-pharmacists do traditional pharmacist work. It is already happening in the medical profession. So it is better that these pharmacy schools open and its quality control under the ACPE, then let pharmacist work be done by non-pharmacists.

 

[BMBiology]

Right! Because there is no clinical or experiential component to the pharmacy education process. And you don't need any specialized equipment or lab space because we don't do that stuff either. Nothing practical or hands-on. Just an empty room and some chairs and you've got a pharmacy school. I should open one in my basement...

That's funny! Don't worry too much about Taurus. He sees the world with bats' eyes. That's why he is desperately trying to save the medical profession (also his wallet size of course) from the nursing profession without addressing the fundamental problem - PCP shortage.

 

[Taurus]

Right! Because there is no clinical or experiential component to the pharmacy education process. And you don't need any specialized equipment or lab space because we don't do that stuff either. Nothing practical or hands-on. Just an empty room and some chairs and you've got a pharmacy school. I should open one in my basement...

Puuhlease, basements are so yesteryear.

It's all about the internet today, baby! Start your pharmacy career by enrolling in an online pharmd program today!

University of Florida
Creighton University
University of Colorado

Congratulations, pharm has just joined the ranks of the online MBA, JD, and DNP.

Yep, the surplus will become a deluge. Remember what happened to law.

 

[Taurus]

That's funny! Don't worry too much about Taurus. He sees the world with bats' eyes. That's why he is desperately trying to save the medical profession (also his wallet size of course) from the nursing profession without addressing the fundamental problem - PCP shortage.

I'm not as worried as you may think.

Pharms have more things to worry about than little o' me.

 

[BADD281]

Please, basements are so yesteryear.

It's all about the internet today, baby! Start your pharmacy career by enrolling in an online pharmd program today!

University of Florida
Creighton University
University of Colorado

Congratulations, pharm has just joined the ranks of the online MBA, JD, and DNP.

Yep, the surplus will become a deluge. Remember what happened to law.

Your an idiot... Obviously if you think there is no required clinical rotations in pharmacy school than you really haven't done your homework. I honestly think the OP is making too much of an issue out of this and as stated before its not a new trend! Like all businesses, pharmacy will inevitably go into a period where the salary isn't growing at the same rate it has over the last 5-10 years. However, that doesn't mean we will be broke or wasting our time in pharmacy school now! If the market becomes flooded, well guess what? More pharmacies will be built! Do you think companies like CVS or Wags will let pharmacists lay around without a job? They will fit a pharmacy in every nook and cranny they can possibly find! Its just a cycle - in 20 years they will be freaking out because there aren't enough pharmacists to go around again. I do look for the technician's role to be impacted a lot if pharmacists are more plentiful... and I for one don't want to be running a register after 8 years of school.

 

[BMBiology]

I'm not as worried as you may think.

Pharms have more things to worry about than little o' me.

You are right. I am not worried about you. I am making fun of you.

 

[BADD281]

Oh yeah...almost forgot! The aging population only keeps getting bigger = more demand for health care across the board, even arrogant Dr.'s We will be fine...

 

[Taurus]

Your an idiot... Obviously if you think there is no required clinical rotations in pharmacy school than you really haven't done your homework. I honestly think the OP is making too much of an issue out of this and as stated before its not a new trend! Like all businesses, pharmacy will inevitably go into a period where the salary isn't growing at the same rate it has over the last 5-10 years. However, that doesn't mean we will be broke or wasting our time in pharmacy school now! If the market becomes flooded, well guess what? More pharmacies will be built! Do you think companies like CVS or Wags will let pharmacists lay around without a job? They will fit a pharmacy in every nook and cranny they can possibly find! Its just a cycle - in 20 years they will be freaking out because there aren't enough pharmacists to go around again. I do look for the technician's role to be impacted a lot if pharmacists are more plentiful... and I for one don't want to be running a register after 8 years of school.

Take a closer look, chump. How much on-campus time does the school require? Not much. So it doesn't take many resources to set something like this up. It's not like if you have to build a new building or hospital to house lecture halls, labs, etc. Other schools could easily replicate this model and hence increase the supply even more.

Students complete the laboratory courses in a condensed manner during the summers. The on-campus laboratory sessions last for 1-2 weeks.

The clinical component of the online pharmacy program requires eight five-week clinical rotations. Five clinical rotations are in required subject areas. The remaining clinical rotations are in elective subject areas. These unpaid clinical rotations provide experience in actual pharmacy practice. Sites for clinical rotations are in a variety of locations throughout the country, with some international sites. New sites are being constantly identified and developed. It may be necessary for students to travel to sites during at least a portion of the last year, depending on the availability of suitable clinical rotation in their location.​

 

[Taurus]

You are right. I am not worried about you. I am making fun of you.

Once I'm done with the nurses, the pharms are next.

 

[BMBiology]

Take a closer look, chump. How much on-campus time does the school require? Not much. So it doesn't take many resources to set something like this up. It's not like if you have to build a new building or hospital to house lecture halls, labs, etc.

I hate to point out the obvious but just for you:

2007 Class Profile
Total Enrolled: 55
Average Cumulative GPA: 3.46
Average Prerequisite Science/Math GPA: 3.35
Average PCAT Composite Percentile: 89
Holding Degrees: 82%
Average Age: 31
Gender: Female - 73%; Male - 27%
Ethnic Diversity: 20%

Students reside in 23 different states

http://spahp2.creighton.edu/admission/pharmacy/Pharmacy_Distance_Profile.htm

You only tell half of the story to try to get your point across. Not only are you doing yourself and your profession a great disservice but any intelligent person know you are full of it.

 

[BMBiology]

Once I'm done with the nurses, the pharms are next.

Someone is not multi-talented.

 

[Taurus]

I hate to point out the obvious but for just for you:

2007 Class Profile
Total Enrolled: 55
Average Cumulative GPA: 3.46
Average Prerequisite Science/Math GPA: 3.35
Average PCAT Composite Percentile: 89
Holding Degrees: 82%
Average Age: 31
Gender: Female - 73%; Male - 27%
Ethnic Diversity: 20%

Students reside in 23 different states

http://spahp2.creighton.edu/admission/pharmacy/Pharmacy_Distance_Profile.htm

You only tell half of the story to try to get your point across. Not only are you doing yourself and your profession a great disservce but any intelligent person know you are full of it.

And your point is?

This is the first program of its kind. Who says that the concept won't catch on nationally? This program creates a dangerous precedent for others to follow.

If the pharms are smart, they will shut it down.

In an innovative move in 2001, Creighton University started the first and only accredited Doctor of Pharmacy Program Distance Pathway providing a full-time educational method to obtain a Doctor of Pharmacy degree.​

 

[Taurus]

Someone is not multi-talented.

Are you that naive? You can't see the slippery slope that pharm has put itself on with this program?

 

[BMBiology]

And your point is?

I can hire these 50+ graduates within a one block radius. The pharmacy profession is on fire but yet, this 7 year old program only enrolled 50+ students a year? You don't need to be as smart as Taurus as to figure out why but you do need common sense.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I still remember when becoming a pharm was just 5 years after high school.

For 5 years of schooling, 100k is great money.

However, as they are pushing to make the pharmD 4 years after college, then 100k is not so great money anymore. Heck, a dentist can make 200k for the same amount of schooling.

You can thank those ivory tower visionaries for your current situation.

Ok. I'm just a nerd that likes the science behind drugs. I don't really give a rat's ass how much money I make. I gots me a fiddle, a single wide, and a busted ass car that gets me from point A to point B. In fact, it's got the same name as you. But that's all I need, son. Hell, give me sandwich and a drank and it's a party. I stopped caring about money a while ago. The only need I have for it now is so that it may allow me to retire early some day.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Because unlike business, law, or pharmacy school, med school requires doing clinical rotations at a hospital. There are only so many slots available at the hospital to maintain the quality of the education. That naturally limits class sizes.

The ACPE requires multiple acute care and institutional rotations during the last year of pharmacy school, too. Interestingly, that is EXACTLY what's keeping more from popping up in every nook and cranny rather than just the trickle we've got now. If you're going to be a troll at least be a good one. Tell us we weren't good enough to get into docta skoo or somethin', damn. Where is that JPHalezlton (or whatever it was), at least he was a good troll. Hell, he had the entire forum pissed the hell off.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Once I'm done with the nurses, the pharms are next.

Don't feed.

This is the first program of its kind. Who says that the concept won't catch on nationally? This program creates a dangerous precedent for others to follow.

In an innovative move in 2001, Creighton University started the first and only accredited Doctor of Pharmacy Program Distance Pathway providing a full-time educational method to obtain a Doctor of Pharmacy degree.

One thing about us pharms is that we are pretty good at counting. This program has been around for seven years, yet no imitators, hmm? I'd hardly call that 'catching on.' Not much of a slippery slope is it?

 

[BMBiology]

Don't feed.

Can we feed him a little more? He's such a brick but yet, he's kinda like a scary cat. No wonder he's so afraid of the nursing profession.

 

[BADD281]

i hate med students...

 

[BMBiology]

i hate med students...

Most med students are pretty good. Taurus is just a bad apple.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Most med students are pretty good. Taurus is just a bad apple.

That might be the only thing that we agree upon.

 

[BMBiology]

That might be the only thing that we agree upon.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

 

[Garfield3d]

--Garfield3d

 

[terse]

No wonder he's so afraid of the nursing profession.

I bet he's also afraid of the Physician Assistant (PA) profession too. That profession is starting to get more recognition, more demand, and more autonomy.

NP's and PA's are fighting hard, and doctors aren't liking it one bit.