New pod school and CSPM (cali)

[JEWmongous]

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Hey everyone,

As most of us are aware, there will be a new pod school at Western Uni of the Health Sciences in southern california (First class starts fall 2009). The first class will most likely have 50 students. Anywho, I heard that CSPM (samuel merritt in oakland) has a lot of its students from southern california. Do you think many students would choose the new Western University program (part of a medical school, vet school, etc) over Samuel Merritt? The new school will most likely have the pod and med students taking classes together similar to DMU and AZPOD.

I'm asking because I know Samuel Merritt had pretty big problems in the past even though they are stable now. There is no talk of both pod schools merging as some people on SDN believed would happen or wanted to happen. To me, it seems that CSPM may lose a good portion of their applicant pool once the new school opens. It may sound dumb, but I am a bit nervous about applying (or matriculating) to CSPM considering their past and especially with the new school opening up in socal. Let me know what you all think. Thanks

 

[SAFOOT]

Hey everyone,

As most of us are aware, there will be a new pod school at Western Uni of the Health Sciences in southern california (First class starts fall 2009). The first class will most likely have 50 students. Anywho, I heard that CSPM (samuel merritt in oakland) has a lot of its students from southern california. Do you think many students would choose the new Western University program (part of a medical school, vet school, etc) over Samuel Merritt? The new school will most likely have the pod and med students taking classes together similar to DMU and AZPOD.

I'm asking because I know Samuel Merritt had pretty big problems in the past even though they are stable now. There is no talk of both pod schools merging as some people on SDN believed would happen or wanted to happen. To me, it seems that CSPM may lose a good portion of their applicant pool once the new school opens. It may sound dumb, but I am a bit nervous about applying (or matriculating) to CSPM considering their past and especially with the new school opening up in socal. Let me know what you all think. Thanks

The way I see it that school won't open for another 2 years. plus probably another 2+ more years for the school to work out its kinks by that time you will be done with pod school and into your residency and won't even care, besides finishing up your residency and starting to work. The good thing about the school opening up is that it will be good publicity for podiatry. Since many people in so cal don't even know podiatry exists.

 

[Feli]

I'm curious to see how this ends up also. Whether the Oakland program is solid or not, it's just hard to compete with DO-affiliated pod programs in the neighboring state as well as a new one in the same state that has a very well known dean. It's a shame that the new pod school couldn't have opened in the south (at UT) or somewhere in the northwest, but we'll see how it pans out. Western sounds like it has the makings of a strong program from what I've read.

I'd be extremely hesitant to apply to Samuel Merritt right now. Whether you would be finished with pod school in Oakland before Western graduates its first class or not, it just doesn't sound all that great to say you went to a school which no longer exists or lost its accreditation. Dr. Harkless had very good things to say about increasing recruiting efforts for his new Western pod program and all programs, but the application pool won't just double overnight. Some of the schools might feel the pressure a bit, and Samuel Merrit figures to be the main one affected due to proximity. A merger between Samuel Merritt and Western would be tough because a lot of people would have to give up their adminstration positions.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I think that the changes that have been made at CSPM will allow them to survive. They might have hard times at first but they had their growing pains. They saw the school slipping and made a lot of corrections to the program. They are able to have smaller classes which means they will always fill the seats. They are very aware of their poor board pass rates and are actively working to improve (which means the curve will shift so other schools will have to improve including the "top teir").

Western may find itself in a dog fight b/c people aren't going to want DPM schools popping up like DO schools. If they are approved, I think that they will have a very limited class size and will be the last school for a long time. From my understanding it is easy to start a school but much harder to get accreditted.

 

[jefguth]

Western may find itself in a dog fight b/c people aren't going to want DPM schools popping up like DO schools. If they are approved, I think that they will have a very limited class size and will be the last school for a long time. From my understanding it is easy to start a school but much harder to get accreditted.

What is the general feeling in the pod community regarding Western U's planned DPM program? Opposition, neutral, all for it? Western is also planning an optometry school to begin at the same time... a lot of Optometrists are pissed with this school and a number of others planning OD schools.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

What is the general feeling in the pod community regarding Western U's planned DPM program? Opposition, neutral, all for it? Western is also planning an optometry school to begin at the same time... a lot of Optometrists are pissed with this school and a number of others planning OD schools.

I think that there is a general feeling that the school is unnecessary, especially the location. If the school would have been in TX, it may have been a different story. But even with the feeling that the school is unnecessary, some people like that another integrated program is being created. I'm not one to buy the 2015 crap but if they want equity w/ DO and MD education programs, they need to be sitting in the same classrooms taking the same tests. This school fills that need, and I highly doubt any of the old schools will be looking to become integrated w/o their hand being forced.

 

[gustydoc]

Feelgood, why the 2015 hostility? Personally I don't have any problem with constantly striving to improve on podiatric education. At first I was hesitant about the new school, but I do support it if it will be integrated with the DO school like DMU or AZPOD. I was leary of AZPOD when it was first getting started, but now I think it is probably the second best podiatry school (academically) if not the best in the nation. What the profession really needs is less seats and more applicants so that more quality students are matriculating. Of course that would require a school that is more interested in standards than making money.

 

[Feli]

I think that there is a general feeling that the school is unnecessary, especially the location. If the school would have been in TX, it may have been a different story. But even with the feeling that the school is unnecessary, some people like that another integrated program is being created. I'm not one to buy the 2015 crap but if they want equity w/ DO and MD education programs, they need to be sitting in the same classrooms taking the same tests. This school fills that need, and I highly doubt any of the old schools will be looking to become integrated w/o their hand being forced.

Coincidentally, there's articles about both the new Western program and an article on 2015 as the first two articles in the new APMA News...
http://www.apma.org/s_apma/bin.asp?CID=985&DID=21835&DOC=FILE.PDF
(probably need your login for it, though^)

The 2015 article listed 4 parts to getting parity, and education was #1. I agree with you that 2015 just isn't going to get done until all pod programs are integrated and the students are taking, and passing, USMLE or a very close test. It was stated that pod grads must have skills and knowledge on par with MD/DO. I think we know the skills are there, but that's hard to measure quantitatively. Knowledge, on the other hand, gets measured just fine in numerical terms. All of the lobbying, PR, or friendliness in the world probably won't ultimately cut it unless the training and performance is proven to be on par with standardized tests. There was also a good point made on having only one certifying board for podiatry and pod surgery.

Well, enough about the future of our profession. The NFL preseason game is about to kick off. First things first

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Feelgood, why the 2015 hostility? Personally I don't have any problem with constantly striving to improve on podiatric education. At first I was hesitant about the new school, but I do support it if it will be integrated with the DO school like DMU or AZPOD. I was leary of AZPOD when it was first getting started, but now I think it is probably the second best podiatry school (academically) if not the best in the nation. What the profession really needs is less seats and more applicants so that more quality students are matriculating. Of course that would require a school that is more interested in standards than making money.

I think that you should not need a "vision" to expect the schools to strive for the highest level of education. Any school that doesn't should not receive accreditation.

I also feel that 2015 is turning out to be a degree envy crap. I was behind it initially but the more press it gets and the things that the APMA leaders are saying and doing have changed my outlook. There are much bigger issues such as same pay for same work, which increase pay and therefore increasing PPAC funding. I don't care if pods are physicians in Medicaid b/c Medicaid pays crap anyways. I don't care if we get a DPM or an MD.


When I discussed this with a very wise man, he told me "You don't invite yourself to dinner." And I agree.

 

[IlizaRob]

I think that you should not need a "vision" to expect the schools to strive for the highest level of education. Any school that doesn't should not receive accreditation.

I also feel that 2015 is turning out to be a degree envy crap. I was behind it initially but the more press it gets and the things that the APMA leaders are saying and doing have changed my outlook. There are much bigger issues such as same pay for same work, which increase pay and therefore increasing PPAC funding. I don't care if pods are physicians in Medicaid b/c Medicaid pays crap anyways. I don't care if we get a DPM or an MD.


When I discussed this with a very wise man, he told me "You don't invite yourself to dinner." And I agree.

I was talking to an attendig at the program I am at right now about this today. He agrees that those are the big issues and feels that 2015 and a degree change to MD would help solve that problem. He thinks it will eventually happen. I dont think we need a degree change but our training certainly needs more respect. But I will say the same thing that I told him. A high percentage of pods in our profession are chip and clippers. They dont have the training that the new generation is getting. So the medical community is more exposed to the old than the new. With time, that will change and when the majority of us are competent physicians and surgeons, it will be easier to get what we want.

 

[cool_vkb]

Coincidentally, there's articles about both the new Western program and an article on 2015 as the first two articles in the new APMA News...
http://www.apma.org/s_apma/bin.asp?CID=985&DID=21835&DOC=FILE.PDF
(probably need your login for it, though^)

The 2015 article listed 4 parts to getting parity, and education was #1. I agree with you that 2015 just isn't going to get done until all pod programs are integrated and the students are taking, and passing, USMLE or a very close test. It was stated that pod grads must have skills and knowledge on par with MD/DO. I think we know the skills are there, but that's hard to measure quantitatively. Knowledge, on the other hand, gets measured just fine in numerical terms. All of the lobbying, PR, or friendliness in the world probably won't ultimately cut it unless the training and performance is proven to be on par with standardized tests. There was also a good point made on having only one certifying board for podiatry and pod surgery.

Well, enough about the future of our profession. The NFL preseason game is about to kick off. First things first

hey how do u bcom member of APMA. or if there is any way u can post the 2015 resolution article directly.

 

[Feli]

hey how do u bcom member of APMA. or if there is any way u can post the 2015 resolution article directly.

You get free APMA membership as a student (well, your school student pod association pays a discounted rate for it). You will start getting their publications and being able to use the member portion of their website soon after you start school. I think pod residents usually also get a reduced rate or someresidency programs cover dues, and practicing pods pay a pretty nominal fee for membership.

Here's the article; since most of you will be pod students within a month, check it out. I'll take it down if anyone says anything:

"President's Vision 2015: Blueprint for Parity

By Christian
Robertozi, DPM

For as long as I
can remember, our
profession has talked
about working toward
equality, parity,
and comparability
with our allopathic and osteopathic
colleagues. Numerous paths have been
proposed to accomplish this goal. We
have opted to prove our value through
our education, training, and experience.

Although some of us enjoy professional
equality with allopathic and osteopathic
physicians in our practices
and hospitals, this situation is not as
common as it should be. David Schofield,
DPM, appointed a task force
chaired by Ross Taubman, DPM, to
look more closely at professional comparability
with other physicians. The
task force determined that to achieve
parity, work must be completed in four
basic areas: 1) education; 2) legislative
and regulatory issues; 3) public relations,
education, and information; and
4) interprofessional relations. Let's look
at each of these four themes.

With regard to education, the competencies
of podiatric medical students
must be equivalent to those of allopathic
and osteopathic medical students when
they graduate from a college of podiatric
medicine. The students must graduate
with the same fundamental knowledge
and skills. Our students must be tested
with national board examinations comparable
to those administered to allopathic
and osteopathic students. Whether
this means taking the same test or a comparable
test has not been determined.
The minimum residency program length
must be three years, as in allopathic and
osteopathic postgraduate training. There
must be only one board certification in
the profession. The importance of this
was stressed by William Hazel, MD,
an orthopedic surgeon and a member
of the American Medical Association
Board of Trustees, in his address to the
87th APMA House of Delegates.

Next is the legislative and regulatory
arena. There must be a universal
scope-of-practice act. This would allow
residents to plan to practice in any state
without worrying about whether the
state law will allow them to care for their
patients to the full extent of their education,
training, and experience. It would
also permit physicians to move from
one state to another without considering
particular state practice laws. There
must be a uniform definition of DPM as
physician. In some states podiatrists are
considered physicians, while in others
they are not. Federal law must also uniformly
define us as physicians.

Public relations, education, and information
must get the message out to
both the general public and the healthcare
community that DPMs are physicians.
Although this has already been
achieved in small pockets throughout
the country, it must become a national
perspective. Our message must be strong
and consistent, and our Web site and
publications must be brought into alignment
with Vision 2015.

Finally, we must initiate, foster,
and solidify relationships with national,
state, and local medical societies, just as
we cultivate relationships in our own
hospitals and with the physicians who
refer patients to us. It's all about relationships.
We can't be hermits and expect
the world to know who we are and what
we do. We must enlighten physicians
who are unaware of our education, training,
and experience and prove our comparability.
Getting involved and promoting
podiatry should be second nature to
all of us. Now, with a common goal the
entire profession can agree on, let's roll
up our sleeves and get to work!
Clearly, there is much to be done.
Fortunately, we can tackle many areas
simultaneously. We need everyone's help.
Be visible, and get involved with your
hospitals and medical community. Develop
relationships with local physicians
and other health care providers. Help
the world better understand the extent
of our education, training, and experience,
and success will naturally follow.
Also, please contribute generously to
your state political action committee as
well as APMA's PPAC. The reality is that
without financial support, it will not
happen. We must help ourselves; no one
is going to do it for us. Consider it an
investment not only in our profession as
a whole, but also in your own future.

APMA will oversee the progress of
this project until its completion. Careful
decisions will be made to achieve our
goals in each of the four areas. There is
only one possible outcome: universal recognition
of DPMs as physicians within
our scope of practice, determined by our
education, training, and experience."

-APMA News July/Aug 2007

 

[gustydoc]

I think that you should not need a "vision" to expect the schools to strive for the highest level of education. Any school that doesn't should not receive accreditation.

I also feel that 2015 is turning out to be a degree envy crap. I was behind it initially but the more press it gets and the things that the APMA leaders are saying and doing have changed my outlook. There are much bigger issues such as same pay for same work, which increase pay and therefore increasing PPAC funding. I don't care if pods are physicians in Medicaid b/c Medicaid pays crap anyways. I don't care if we get a DPM or an MD.


When I discussed this with a very wise man, he told me "You don't invite yourself to dinner." And I agree.

I think one of the big problems is the confusion surrounding 2015. There will not be a degree change to MD if vision 2015 comes to fullfilment. The whole point of the resolution is to achieve parity with MD/DOs by improving our education and board examinations without changing our degree or who we are. If you can achieve that the the same pay and many other issues take care of themselves and whether you like the resolution or not it would as help to attract more qaulified applicants to the profession. I guess the biggest thing that all of the current pods and pod students on this forum should realize is that the APMA has already voted to adopt this resolution as an important goal of the profession so it is not so much a matter of if vision 2015 comes to fruition, but when!

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I think one of the big problems is the confusion surrounding 2015. There will not be a degree change to MD if vision 2015 comes to fullfilment. The whole point of the resolution is to achieve parity with MD/DOs by improving our education and board examinations without changing our degree or who we are. If you can achieve that the the same pay and many other issues take care of themselves and whether you like the resolution or not it would as help to attract more qaulified applicants to the profession. I guess the biggest thing that all of the current pods and pod students on this forum should realize is that the APMA has already voted to adopt this resolution as an important goal of the profession so it is not so much a matter of if vision 2015 comes to fruition, but when!

I agree by the definition of the "vision" it is not a degree issue, but from all of the talk it is heading that way. That is why I said I was all for it at first but I do not like the road that people are taking it down.

There are very easy and simple solutions to may of the issues that are being ignored b/c the APMA and many people would lose power and money. They are not just doing what is best for podiatry but also the APMA.

Also, the equal pay for equal work is not covered under the vision and even in that article is never mentioned. I believe that the APMA is afraid of the issue b/c they are looking for more acceptance and that issue will definitely rub people the wrong way.

Just shooting off the cuff, here are a few things I would like to see:

• Podiatrists are accepted into the AMA and the APMA becomes a side organization or dissolves. If the APMA dissolved PPAC would become a separate entity and receive funding through ACFAS, ACFAOM, AAWP, ect.
• We have one certifying board.
• The NBMPE goes away and students take a version of the USMLE or COMLEX that includes lower limb. This will save money because they no longer need to "develop the test, and this "validates" our testing.
• All school must met more stringent guidelines, no longer are dentist allowed to teach anatomy or schools cannot graduate students that do not pass the boards.
• Board pass rates are made public so that pre-pod students can make an educated decision about there schooling (we all know how honest some schools are about there pass rates, amazing every school is above the national pass rate, weird).
• We stop wasting millions on "being listed as physicians"
• We work at the state not national level on a universal or no scope law
• We work on passing "equal pay for equal work"
• We increase interest at the high school and undergrad levels though various activities [talks, events, ect]
• Increase the amount of tv and magazine ads for podiatric issues such as diabetes, foot pain, ankle pain, ect. This was a gold mine for dentistry

 

[oncogene]

I agree by the definition of the "vision" it is not a degree issue, but from all of the talk it is heading that way. That is why I said I was all for it at first but I do not like the road that people are taking it down.

There are very easy and simple solutions to may of the issues that are being ignored b/c the APMA and many people would lose power and money. They are not just doing what is best for podiatry but also the APMA.

Also, the equal pay for equal work is not covered under the vision and even in that article is never mentioned. I believe that the APMA is afraid of the issue b/c they are looking for more acceptance and that issue will definitely rub people the wrong way.

Just shooting off the cuff, here are a few things I would like to see:

• Podiatrists are accepted into the AMA and the APMA becomes a side organization or dissolves. If the APMA dissolved PPAC would become a separate entity and receive funding through ACFAS, ACFAOM, AAWP, ect.
• We have one certifying board.
• The NBMPE goes away and students take a version of the USMLE or COMLEX that includes lower limb. This will save money because they no longer need to "develop the test, and this "validates" our testing.
• All school must met more stringent guidelines, no longer are dentist allowed to teach anatomy or schools cannot graduate students that do not pass the boards.
• Board pass rates are made public so that pre-pod students can make an educated decision about there schooling (we all know how honest some schools are about there pass rates, amazing every school is above the national pass rate, weird).
• We stop wasting millions on "being listed as physicians"
• We work at the state not national level on a universal or no scope law
• We work on passing "equal pay for equal work"
• We increase interest at the high school and undergrad levels though various activities [talks, events, ect]
• Increase the amount of tv and magazine ads for podiatric issues such as diabetes, foot pain, ankle pain, ect. This was a gold mine for dentistry

Please correct me if I am wrong here because I am not sure if I am seeing this the right way..If true parity is reached and it is adopted by law "equal pay for equal work" will automatically happen as required by law. Same for the medicaid issue.

So the question for me is that if true parity is met would it mean that DPMs could go into other specialties? I would certainly hope not as this could obviously be bad for podiatry. How would we deal with it?

onco

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

There is not equal pay for equal work even within the MD/DO world.

If by true parity you mean everything thing in the world is equal, than yes b/c everything is equal.

I agree that a DPM should not be allowed to go into another speciality but I think it would be interesting to take DO/MD students in podiatry residencies. I'm not saying I'm all for that, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[oncogene]

There is not equal pay for equal work even within the MD/DO world.

If by true parity you mean everything thing in the world is equal, than yes b/c everything is equal.

I agree that a DPM should not be allowed to go into another speciality but I think it would be interesting to take DO/MD students in podiatry residencies. I'm not saying I'm all for that, I'm just throwing it out there.

It just seems to me that vision 2015 is pushing for dpm to be exactly the same as md/DO which is fine by me as long as DPM stay in pod. There is a contradiction that needs to be addressed.

How is the pay different between MD/DO
? I thought the codes for billing are the same for md/do.

onco

 

[cool_vkb]

It just seems to me that vision 2015 is pushing for dpm to be exactly the same as md/DO which is fine by me as long as DPM stay in pod. There is a contradiction that needs to be addressed.

How is the pay different between MD/DO
? I thought the codes for billing are the same for md/do.

onco

If 2015 allows us to enter other specialities that wud so funny and senseless. just imagine iam introducting myself as "hi! iam dr.cool_vkb iam a podiatrist by educatuion and i will be ur gynocologist today".

Yeah no way they should allow people to enter other specilities. Then all those *****s who coudnt make into med school will start to find ways to enter Pod school (and its a known fact that a lot of pod schools have lower stats than Med schools). Pod school should only be for people who really love this profession. Not as a dumping ground for rejeted pre-meds who will later switch specialities once they become DPM. thats bad!

I think all we need is equal respect and full scope of practice in the sense that just as Opthamologist is limitd to only Eyes but enjoys all kinds of benefits and respect by the virtue of his MD degree. We should also be Foot & Ankle specialists but shud be able to enjoy all the benefits and priveledges of our degree to maximum extent.

 

[cool_vkb]

By the way, honestly how real is this 2015 thing. i know AAPM adopted this or that but in reality how is this whole thing progressng with AMA or AOA or the US govt. Are we really going to see this happen or its still like a visionary dream which though adopted by APMA will be rejected by AMA or AOA lobby.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Coding is the same but reimbursment is not. The whole system is so complicatedand screwed up that it needs to be redone.

 

[oncogene]

By the way, honestly how real is this 2015 thing. i know AAPM adopted this or that but in reality how is this whole thing progressng with AMA or AOA or the US govt. Are we really going to see this happen or its still like a visionary dream which though adopted by APMA will be rejected by AMA or AOA lobby.

To be perfectly honest the APMA is not talking all that much about the details. I would think with all of the politics involved it is necessary to be discreet. I would really like to know what is going on behind the scenes and what he AMA is really thinking.

 

[SAFOOT]

How would 2015 affect those pods with 3 years residency that already finished their training. Those before 2015 would they be given the same rights even though lets say they didn't take the same boards or the same certificates.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I'm sure they would be grandfathered in. Most of the famous pods out there did not do a 36 month residency, but they are board certified in RF and ankle. Why? Because they trained under a different set of rules, plus experience is as valuable as schooling/training.

 

[gustydoc]

To be perfectly honest the APMA is not talking all that much about the details. I would think with all of the politics involved it is necessary to be discreet. I would really like to know what is going on behind the scenes and what he AMA is really thinking.

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

 

[oncogene]

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

I agree. There is no turning back at this point and as someone said earlier it is more of a matter of when it will happen. I plan to be involved in some of those meetings here in the near future and to help in anyway that I can.What suggestions from the AOFAS don't you agree with?

onco

 

[cool_vkb]

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

Wow man! this is so awesome. that statement really shows that we are going places.
One more question i had was, since you spoke to the APMA trustee. Can you predict or estimate as to how much time it could take to get things going done. i hope it gets passed by the time i graduate. And like some said does the passgae of this resoultion means we will be allowed to do other specialities also. I mean when they want Pods to take USMLE which includes a good share of subjects which pods dont do like Gyno, psych, cardio, nephro, etc . Then as per the rule they should also be allowed to do the other residencies also. However allowing to do so will be very bad for podiatry as we will loose our identity as Foot & Ankle specialists and will be more like regualar MDs or DOs.

 

[PMSIII]

Wow man! this is so awesome. that statement really shows that we are going places.
One more question i had was, since you spoke to the APMA trustee. Can you predict or estimate as to how much time it could take to get things going done. i hope it gets passed by the time i graduate. And like some said does the passgae of this resoultion means we will be allowed to do other specialities also. I mean when they want Pods to take USMLE which includes a good share of subjects which pods dont do like Gyno, psych, cardio, nephro, etc . Then as per the rule they should also be allowed to do the other residencies also. However allowing to do so will be very bad for podiatry as we will loose our identity as Foot & Ankle specialists and will be more like regualar MDs or DOs.

taking a usmle will not eliminate our identity. Rather it will further solidify our place amongst the MD's/DO's as competent physicians specializing in the foot and ankle. For the record, we cover all subjects on the USMLE part I except psychiatry which I don't think would be an obstactle for us to take those boards.

I for one, am a fan of having the option to taking the USMLE step I as a simiar setup to the D.O.s who take the COMLEX and the USMLE. I do believe that we'll move forward if we have a standard accepted and recognized by the AMA. This can only help the future podiatrists in my opinion.

 

[IlizaRob]

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

While reading this post, I couldnt help but hear the faint sounds of the national anthem behind me that gradually grew with every word I read, and the subtle appearance of the American flag waving across my computer screen. Good post Gusty, I expect great things from you in the future and want you to know I will be right there beside you.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

My biggest issues with their statement are:

• First point, that we provide a valuable service when we work within our education and training. This is vaguely dangerous on both sides. 1) I was trained in pharmacology and cardiology, and I'll rotate in primary care but I would never treat hypertension. Neither will a F&A ortho. 2) The limit to the scope will be very tight and/or non-negotiable if the APMA gives the AOFAS what they want.
  
• We will form 1 credentialing body, I'm not saying that this will happen, but: One day the board of directors of the certifying body, which I assume if we are merging with AOFAS under this board, will be run by mostly orthopods chooses to require a MD/DO or 5 years of residency or something else that kills podiatry. What then?

I'm not tyring to bring a Chicken Little outlook to the debate but I think that we must assume that the APMA is forced to make concessions. I do not think that the APMA is making as much headway as they would have us believe without major, and I mean major promises. What outs will we have? That is the tough thing about playing it close to the vest (no pun intended).

I've previously read this statement so I had already wonder what was promised. Did the APMA would throw ACFAS under the bus to gain more respect from the AOFAS? That would be ironic since many of the members of the APMA are only there b/c it is a requirement of ACFAS.

If we play along do we think that we will be embraced as equals? That is not listed anywhere. Even on there own website they hint at why they are better than DPMs (http://www.aofas.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3281 and http://www.aofas.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3673)

Look no further at the AAOS website (www.aaos.org) and search using the word podiatry. There are recent "updates" of on podiatry, expanding scope, ect. Other ortho organizations have not shown this new found love, and why not?

Again, I believe that caution should be advised. I don't think that orthopedics and podiatry have a bad relationship and I have never seen anything to say otherwise. But politics is politics and the APMA are politicians.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

taking a usmle will not eliminate our identity. Rather it will further solidify our place amongst the MD's/DO's as competent physicians specializing in the foot and ankle. For the record, we cover all subjects on the USMLE part I except psychiatry which I don't think would be an obstactle for us to take those boards.

I for one, am a fan of having the option to taking the USMLE step I as a simiar setup to the D.O.s who take the COMLEX and the USMLE. I do believe that we'll move forward if we have a standard accepted and recognized by the AMA. This can only help the future podiatrists in my opinion.

While I don't disagee, you must remember that about 50% of DOs that sit for the USMLE receive a passing score. Do you expect us to do better? MDs are the best students, that is a fact. The education is not that different than DO schools or DPM programs, the difference is in the person holding the pencil.

 

[Feli]

While I don't disagee, you must remember that about 50% of DOs that sit for the USMLE receive a passing score. Do you expect us to do better? MDs are the best students, that is a fact. The education is not that different than DO schools or DPM programs, the difference is in the person holding the pencil.

Ding ding ding^

This is the bottom line. A group can say that their education is similar or their tests are similar or their grads are similar to another group for as long as they want, but, in the end, you have to evaluate everyone with the same criteria to prove it (hence education being #1 on 2015). When that has happened (USMLE), the results are pretty clear between MD and DO students, and there'd probably be an even greater gap in overall pod students. Your average DO matriculant wouldn't get into MD, and your average DPM student wouldn't get into DO. Sure, there are people above the average, but if all three programs had everyone take the same exams, you'd see some gaps.

Also, if pods take the USMLE, that probably opens us up to losing some ground as well as gaining. If a pod student who barely passes the USMLE applies for a pod residency, could a MD student who got a higher score then apply to take that residency slot? With the high quality and abundance of pod residencies today, there would probably be interest. Every time you open up the rules or try to bend them, it could change... either way.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Every time you open up the rules or try to bend them, it could change... either way.

👍

I'm glad I'm not the only one that is very skeptical about this stuff.

 

[whiskers]

Nestled away in an adjacent phantasm raged a subtopian debate about the uncertainties of biPedal sentience.

The proletariat lamented hourly as the great gong tolled and toiled on, ever watchful of the unfolding cosmic entropy below.

"Is that the 11th hour of the Great Chronograph, I dost hear toll?" quivered an unnamed peasant. Another whispered in hesitation, "the Great Barons shall be along shortly to calm our fears and puppet our masters. "But shall we receive our direction in the dark?" Exclaimed a third.

But you and I know that the lunula can only be 1/2 of a Celestia based in uncertainty.

 

[SAFOOT]

Ding ding ding^

This is the bottom line. A group can say that their education is similar or their tests are similar or their grads are similar to another group for as long as they want, but, in the end, you have to evaluate everyone with the same criteria to prove it (hence education being #1 on 2015). When that has happened (USMLE), the results are pretty clear between MD and DO students, and there'd probably be an even greater gap in overall pod students. Your average DO matriculant wouldn't get into MD, and your average DPM student wouldn't get into DO. Sure, there are people above the average, but if all three programs had everyone take the same exams, you'd see some gaps.

Also, if pods take the USMLE, that probably opens us up to losing some ground as well as gaining. If a pod student who barely passes the USMLE applies for a pod residency, could a MD student who got a higher score then apply to take that residency slot? With the high quality and abundance of pod residencies today, there would probably be interest. Every time you open up the rules or try to bend them, it could change... either way.

I totally agree with the fact that there would be some gaps between the groups, the gap exists due to an underlying reason. This reason is because its easier to get into a DO than MD and its easier to get a DPM than an DO. Therefore to fix this it has to be fixed from the ground up. There has to be incentive for the top students to apply to become a DPM. That incentive is same rights etc. (2015 vision) all those things as MD's and a close guarantee to do a 3 year residency. As a result more top students would like that because they know that their chances of specializing is greater as opposed to MD or DO route this would increase the competition and eventually balance out and lower the passing percentage gap.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

There has to be incentive for the top students to apply to become a DPM. That incentive is same rights etc. (2015 vision) all those things as MD's and a close guarantee to do a 3 year residency. As a result more top students would like that because they know that their chances of specializing is greater as opposed to MD or DO route this would increase the competition and eventually balance out and lower the passing percentage gap.

You make it sound as if a) the top pre-med students will have a change of heart and only look at podiatry, or b) we currently have nothing worth working for. I don't think either is true.

Maybe it would be in our best interest to work more at educating the DO applicant pool. Informing them that greater than 50% of them will be a PCP. That podiatry offers them more money and a chance to be a surgeon. I think that is money better spent. Then your gap will start to close.

 

[gustydoc]

I agree. There is no turning back at this point and as someone said earlier it is more of a matter of when it will happen. I plan to be involved in some of those meetings here in the near future and to help in anyway that I can.What suggestions from the AOFAS don't you agree with?

onco

Sorry onco I would have replied sooner, but I got called in on an awesome lisfranc fracture dislocation yesterday. Personally I still feel that there is a bit of a condesending tone to the position statement, but like I said we still have a lot of work to do. The AOFAS says they would like to see us credentialed by their certifiying boards, whcih seems to imply that they are better when in fact I would bet the ABPS certification exam is more difficult. what we really need to do is put pressure on the two certifying boards we have now to merge or figure out how we can move to just one. I was speaking with an ortho surgeon last week and he made a great point that is our professions own fault that we make it so difficult for other doctors to figure out what kind of training we have had. As far as all of the pessimism and negativity that you see from others on this thread I would not worry about it too much. Vision 2015 has not moved along as quickly as some would have liked, but it is working.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Sorry onco I would have replied sooner, but I got called in on an awesome lisfranc fracture dislocation yesterday. Personally I still feel that there is a bit of a condesending tone to the position statement, but like I said we still have a lot of work to do. The AOFAS says they would like to see us credentialed by their certifiying boards, whcih seems to imply that they are better when in fact I would bet the ACFAS certification exam is more difficult. what we really need to do is put pressure on the two certifying boards we have now to merge or figure out how we can move to just one. I was speaking with an ortho surgeon last week and he made a great point that is our professions own fault that we make it so difficult for other doctors to figure out what kind of training we have had. As far as all of the pessimism and negativity that you see from others on this thread I would not worry about it too much. Vision 2015 has not moved along as quickly as some would have liked, but it is working.

😡😱:cry:

 

[gustydoc]

😡😱:cry:

Wow that is a lot of smilies. You know I love ya Feelgood. Has a month in the south turned you into a redneck yet?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Wow that is a lot of smilies. You know I love ya Feelgood. Has a month in the south turned you into a redneck yet?

First off, I go by Billy Bob now. But I reckon I haven't changed much. Yeah I started chewing tobacco after the visit to the Kentucky Fair. I also reckon I really like the feel and support of my new "Kent" tight jeans and cowboy boots. The only thing that might have changed is my love to discharge firearms for any celebration, preferably a shotgun.

 

[IlizaRob]

It is true that the APMA is not discussing the details of the resolution a great deal and it is due to the fact the the dialog with the AMA and AOFAS is ongoing. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to speak with a member of the APMA board of trustees as I have, I am sure you would be as excited and optimistic as I am about the progress and possibilities of vision 2015. While I understand some of the skepticism that people like Feelgood have about the whole thing, the fact of the matter is that since the passage of resolution 2-05 (vision 2015) at the 2005 APMA HOD meeting some amazing strides have been made in the relationships between the APMA and the AMA/AOFAS. While many of the meetings continue to go on behind closed doors we are starting to see some signs of the results everywhere. For example if you took a look at the American Orthopeadic Foot and Ankle Society position statement on Podiatry last year you might not have been surprised to find a very harshly worded document that stated podiatrist should not be allowed to surgically treat patients and have no place in the medical team. Now less than a year later after many meetings with the APMA 2015 task force the position statement has been changed and is completely different from all of the previous views of podiatry put forth by the AOFAS. Check it out for yourself at http://www.aofas.org/files/public/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf This is a change from a position of complete hostility towards podiatry to one that acknowledges that we need to work together to do what is best for our patients. While I don't agree with all of the suggestions of the AOFAS the dialog has begun and we are finally attempting to work together rather than against each other. So what is my point? This is a very unique time to be a podiatry student or resident and we have a unique opportunity to be the generation of podiatrists that stand up for improvements in our education and training that will forever change the way the profession is viewed by our MD/DO colleagues and our patients without loosing the things that make us unique as DPMs.

I just took a look at the new position statement by the AOFAS and have to agree that it is very different than what it used to be. I dont think that the recommendations are bad. I honestly wouldnt care if we were credentialed by other accrediting bodies rather than our own. I dont think that we would be too controlled if we did this. It would probably lead to having our own specialty organization within the AMA. What I thought was odd though was that the AOFAS thought it should be required for every pod student to take the USMLE just like any other med student. The thing is, not every med student takes the USMLE. There are DO orthos who have not (at least that is my understanding). I do think that our boards could be raised a bit though. Feelgood?

 

[gustydoc]

I just took a look at the new position statement by the AOFAS and have to agree that it is very different than what it used to be. I dont think that the recommendations are bad. I honestly wouldnt care if we were credentialed by other accrediting bodies rather than our own. I dont think that we would be too controlled if we did this. It would probably lead to having our own specialty organization within the AMA. What I thought was odd though was that the AOFAS thought it should be required for every pod student to take the USMLE just like any other med student. The thing is, not every med student takes the USMLE. There are DO orthos who have not (at least that is my understanding). I do think that our boards could be raised a bit though. Feelgood?

Rob you are a welcome voice of reason to the discussion. I too would not have a problem with taking the COMLEX or just improving the test designed by the NBPME so that the AMA agrees that it is a valid test. I refuse to learn OMM just to take the COMLEX though. Whipping the cuboid... give me a break. 😀

 

[oncogene]

Rob you are a welcome voice of reason to the discussion. I too would not have a problem with taking the COMLEX or just improving the test designed by the NBPME so that the AMA agrees that it is a valid test. I refuse to learn OMM just to take the COMLEX though. Whipping the cuboid... give me a break. 😀

It seems to me that the most practical way would be to have the NBME work with NBPME to actually author or improve our exam. Either way way we would need to change one of the 3 possible choices to accommodate lower limb or delete the OMM section.

What are the major problems with the Podiatry boards?

 

[gustydoc]

It seems to me that the most practical way would be to have the NBME work with NBPME to actually author or improve our exam. Either way way we would need to change one of the 3 possible choices to accommodate lower limb or delete the OMM section.

What are the major problems with the Podiatry boards?

Amazing to me that no-one else has pounced on this question. Look no further than your nearest third year DPM student to find a laundry list of complaints. First off the test less than 200 questions people in my class were walking out in less than an hour, they all passed by the way. Compare that to osteo or allopathic boards and it is almost embarrasing. The variabilty of difficulty between years is an important issue as well as the lack of medicine (not podiatric) on Part 2. Anyway the list could go on and on but I those are the big issues as far as I am concerned.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

The easiest solution is opening lines w/ COMLEX (probably the logical choice w/ DMU and AZPOD) and replacing the OMM section w/ lower limb. Or the USMLE, and adding a lower limb section. The price of the test would go down and the test would be much more valid and accepted. You would not need to worry about memorizing quesitons b/c good luck they are replaced too frequently for those who want to cheat. And trust me, it is still happening today.

 

[PMSIII]

The easiest solution is opening lines w/ COMLEX (probably the logical choice w/ DMU and AZPOD) and replacing the OMM section w/ lower limb. Or the USMLE, and adding a lower limb section. The price of the test would go down and the test would be much more valid and accepted. You would not need to worry about memorizing quesitons b/c good luck they are replaced too frequently for those who want to cheat. And trust me, it is still happening today.

👍

 

[Feli]

The easiest solution is opening lines w/ COMLEX (probably the logical choice w/ DMU and AZPOD) and replacing the OMM section w/ lower limb. Or the USMLE, and adding a lower limb section. The price of the test would go down and the test would be much more valid and accepted. You would not need to worry about memorizing quesitons b/c good luck they are replaced too frequently for those who want to cheat. And trust me, it is still happening today.

This would make the most sense since pod schools are becoming increasingly integrated with DO programs. COMPLEX with lower anat instead of OMM is a logical idea.

Also, I think some DPMs have already taken COMPLEX pt1 and pt2 for the DPM/DO program here in Florida if the original timeline was adhered to. I'd be curious as to how results were, but I'd imagine they were fine if the program is still humming along...

http://www.podiatryonline.com/main.cfm?pg=students&fn=nova