new research lab woes

[alhs525]

I have two years of extensive biology research, but my previous lab disbanded over the course of the summer, so at the start of this school year I joined a new group, whose work I find very interesting and relevant. The PI has paired me with a graduate student whose project is quite similar to the one I worked on in the past, so I am already familiar with the techniques he uses. Even though it's only been 3 weeks, there are already some issues that are making me contemplate leaving this lab, mostly to do with the graduate student I am working with.

1) The graduate student is quite inconsiderate and never ready for me. For instance, I set up a schedule of times for when I would be coming into the lab (4-5 day days a week, 3-4 hour chunks each day), and he said those times were fine. I send him reminders throughout the week of when I will be coming in. Then when I show up at those times, he is not in the lab, or he's too busy to talk to me so I have to sit there for a long time (20, 30 minutes) until he is "ready".

2) I still don't know the details of what the project entails, and I have been consistently asking the graduate student to sit down with me and talk me through it, but he insists he doesn't have time. So he just gave me a couple of random papers to read (that were authored by other people), but they aren't even that closely related to his work. This is a red flag for me--- the fact that he is unwilling to discuss with me the project I will be working on.

3) As I mentioned above, I already know a lot of the lab techniques necessary to conduct experiments. The graduate student is aware of this, but at the same time doesn't quite trust me to do anything hands-on, which I understand to a degree. So he wants me to shadow him until I see him do all the experiments multiple times. But again, he is never ready for me when I come into the lab! He also has already told me not to come in several days because he isn't running experiments at the times I've set, or he'll say stuff like "I'm doing PCR tomorrow, but since you already know how to do that, don't come in."

4) I've tried to communicate with him how I want to be able to start my own project, and that I feel that I am capable. He just brushes me off and talks about how he is so busy and rushed with his own experiments that he can't accommodate me in that sense. Another red flag.

I am really frustrated, because none of my past research experiences with either graduate students or post-docs were this confusing. I know I should probably talk with the PI, but I don't know if there's much she can do. Should I just cut my ties and find a new lab? Is there really anything that I can do in this situation? I feel that my time is being wasted, and I need to make a decision about whether to stay in this lab and make amends or just hightail it out of there. Input appreciated!

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[Lya]

Talk to PI and seek another grad student or post-doc you can work with. Otherwise, say thank you for the opportunity to shadow and learn, then leave. I would find another lab.

 

[Goro]

You need to talk to the PI stat. It's the grad student's job to train you; it's part of his own training.

The "I want my own project" is a little presumptive. You're lucky to to be in lab period, so I'd cut the student some slack on that score.

I have two years of extensive biology research, but my previous lab disbanded over the course of the summer, so at the start of this school year I joined a new group, whose work I find very interesting and relevant. The PI has paired me with a graduate student whose project is quite similar to the one I worked on in the past, so I am already familiar with the techniques he uses. Even though it's only been 3 weeks, there are already some issues that are making me contemplate leaving this lab, mostly to do with the graduate student I am working with.

1) The graduate student is quite inconsiderate and never ready for me. For instance, I set up a schedule of times for when I would be coming into the lab (4-5 day days a week, 3-4 hour chunks each day), and he said those times were fine. I send him reminders throughout the week of when I will be coming in. Then when I show up at those times, he is not in the lab, or he's too busy to talk to me so I have to sit there for a long time (20, 30 minutes) until he is "ready".

2) I still don't know the details of what the project entails, and I have been consistently asking the graduate student to sit down with me and talk me through it, but he insists he doesn't have time. So he just gave me a couple of random papers to read (that were authored by other people), but they aren't even that closely related to his work. This is a red flag for me--- the fact that he is unwilling to discuss with me the project I will be working on.

3) As I mentioned above, I already know a lot of the lab techniques necessary to conduct experiments. The graduate student is aware of this, but at the same time doesn't quite trust me to do anything hands-on, which I understand to a degree. So he wants me to shadow him until I see him do all the experiments multiple times. But again, he is never ready for me when I come into the lab! He also has already told me not to come in several days because he isn't running experiments at the times I've set, or he'll say stuff like "I'm doing PCR tomorrow, but since you already know how to do that, don't come in."

4) I've tried to communicate with him how I want to be able to start my own project, and that I feel that I am capable. He just brushes me off and talks about how he is so busy and rushed with his own experiments that he can't accommodate me in that sense. Another red flag.

I am really frustrated, because none of my past research experiences with either graduate students or post-docs were this confusing. I know I should probably talk with the PI, but I don't know if there's much she can do. Should I just cut my ties and find a new lab? Is there really anything that I can do in this situation? I feel that my time is being wasted, and I need to make a decision about whether to stay in this lab and make amends or just hightail it out of there. Input appreciated!

 

[Aerus]

Talk to the PI. I would also look into other labs in the meanwhile, just in case. Good luck!

 

[UCLAzy]

1. i dont see this as a problem. the world does not revolve around you. the students i train have to wait longer sometimes if i'm in the middle of something (machines were in use so i got started later than expected, reagents that should have been there needed to be made, etc).

2. this may be a slightly larger problem, but actually i always start students off by giving them background papers to peruse. the fact is, if he sits down and tells you all the details of the project you're going to forget most of them. from your general attitude you seem to think you know everything there is to know (and maybe you do? not likely though) but as a grad student it can be a huge waste of time if i need to explain fundamental concepts to the undergrads multiple times. if you've been there more than a couple of months and he's not willing to share then it can be problematic

3. knowing the concepts of the lab techniques is great. each lab does experiments differently though, and shadowing is a part of coming to a new lab. again, i know you think you're hot stuff, but even post docs shadow (and read) for a few weeks before diving in..

4. maybe this is why the grad student doesnt want to share with you. as an undergrad, feel grateful that you're involved in research. your progress does not affect your ability to graduate like the grad student.

you honestly sound pretty entitled. 2 years is a good start, but you're not an expert by any measure. your grad student is treating you like a grad student should treat a new lab member and i would be surprised if a different lab would give you immediate independence. trust takes time, and going behind their back to complain to the PI is going to hurt your relationship with them.

 

[Aerus]

1. i dont see this as a problem. the world does not revolve around you. the students i train have to wait longer sometimes if i'm in the middle of something (machines were in use so i got started later than expected, reagents that should have been there needed to be made, etc).

I see this as a huge red flag. The post doc I work under is incredibly busy (especially since he's running two different projects and in the midst of submitting a paper right now) and he STILL has time to train me. If the grad student cannot effectively manage their time well, then the OP needs to find a new mentor, one that can. There are a lot of people out there who can do the job.

2. this may be a slightly larger problem, but actually i always start students off by giving them background papers to peruse. the fact is, if he sits down and tells you all the details of the project you're going to forget most of them. from your general attitude you seem to think you know everything there is to know (and maybe you do? not likely though) but as a grad student it can be a huge waste of time if i need to explain fundamental concepts to the undergrads multiple times. if you've been there more than a couple of months and he's not willing to share then it can be problematic

I agree. Still, taking like 20 minutes after work to briefly go over everything or an hour sometime during the week to explain the project isn't that much to ask for. The OP hasn't even been explained once (at least from what I can tell from their post).

3. knowing the concepts of the lab techniques is great. each lab does experiments differently though, and shadowing is a part of coming to a new lab. again, i know you think you're hot stuff, but even post docs shadow (and read) for a few weeks before diving in..

I agree.

4. maybe this is why the grad student doesnt want to share with you. as an undergrad, feel grateful that you're involved in research. your progress does not affect your ability to graduate like the grad student.

you honestly sound pretty entitled. 2 years is a good start, but you're not an expert by any measure. your grad student is treating you like a grad student should treat a new lab member and i would be surprised if a different lab would give you immediate independence. trust takes time, and going behind their back to complain to the PI is going to hurt your relationship with them.

Eh, if OP wants to have a more rewarding research experience as an undergrad, why blame them? There are plenty of labs out there who quickly give independent projects to undergrads if they have prior experience in research and coursework. In fact, some of the labs at my school explicitly state that it is a requirement to be able to become independent quickly if one wishes to join.

So it's not an unreasonable thing to expect.

 

[alhs525]

4) I've tried to communicate with him how I want to be able to start my own project, and that I feel that I am capable. He just brushes me off and talks about how he is so busy and rushed with his own experiments that he can't accommodate me in that sense. Another red flag.

OP here--- obviously I am not asking for a project right off the bat. I said something to him along the lines of "When I have done adequate shadowing and training, would there ever be a possibility of me having a small side project?" and he told me that "I just have too much on my plate that I can't risk my own time to help you out with that." He also says that I will need to shadow for a long long time because he also can't set aside much time to go over his experiments/techniques in depth.

However, when meeting with the PI, she told me that she really wants undergrads to be included as full members of the lab, and she strongly encourages undergrad independent research, which is a large part of why I joined her group. Now I feel like I'm being gipped.

I know some of you may think I am being entitled and that instead I should be grateful --- I am grateful --- but I hope you can see where I'm coming from---I truly enjoy and take research seriously; I want to make contributions to the lab, and I believe I am a valuable member (I've contributed significantly to my previous projects and am now co-authored)--- and why I feel frustrated by this experience.

So that being said, do you guys think I should give the graduate student more time to get his stuff together, or should I not waste any more time? I'm just scared that if I leave this lab, the next one won't be any better. Any tips on how to avoid any more of these situations?

 

[URHere]

Honestly, you may have just caught this grad student at a really bad time. Is he getting close to graduating?

In my case, I know that 2 years ago, I was much more able and willing to train new students than I am now. It's not unusual for students in their last year to spend significant time writing, preparing presentations, and doing seemingly random experiments to fill in gaps in their research. Having to train someone during that time is awful, because you simply don't need to run all of the experiments that the trainee needs to see, and there isn't much time to waste on experiments that don't directly impact your thesis.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this is what's happening here, but the grad student probably isn't making your life miserable on purpose. I think the best solution may be taking to the grad student and PI to see if you can be trained by someone else in the lab.

 

[alhs525]

Honestly, you may have just caught this grad student at a really bad time. Is he getting close to graduating?

In my case, I know that 2 years ago, I was much more able and willing to train new students than I am now. It's not unusual for students in their last year to spend significant time writing, preparing presentations, and doing seemingly random experiments to fill in gaps in their research. Having to train someone during that time is awful, because you simply don't need to run all of the experiments that the trainee needs to see, and there isn't much time to waste on experiments that don't directly impact your thesis.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this is what's happening here, but the grad student probably isn't making your life miserable on purpose. I think the best solution may be taking to the grad student and PI to see if you can be trained by someone else in the lab.

He's a third year and the only option I have to work with in the lab. The others have their own undergrads and can't take me on.

 

[alhs525]

Okay, so it just happened again. Confirmed a time with him, went in, then he asked me to wait 10 minutes while he ran upstairs to do something... I ended up waiting 45 minutes. He finally came back down and told me he got caught up in whatever it was, and he sent me home.
Does he deserve another chance? Or is this a sign I should high-tail it out of this lab?

 

[SN12357]

Okay, so it just happened again. Confirmed a time with him, went in, then he asked me to wait 10 minutes while he ran upstairs to do something... I ended up waiting 45 minutes. He finally came back down and told me he got caught up in whatever it was, and he sent me home.
Does he deserve another chance? Or is this a sign I should high-tail it out of this lab?

You need to talk to the PI and/or leave the lab. That nonsense is just rude.

I do advise talking professionally about the situation to the PI, though. Good PIs generally want to know when their mentees are being *******s.