New schools

[c/o2023hopeful]

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How are new schools being perceived by those who are actually in vet school/graduated veterinarians? I have gotten into a new school (lmu) but also a more established school with a teaching hospital and really don't know which one to choose.

 

[pp9]

How are new schools being perceived by those who are actually in vet school/graduated veterinarians? I have gotten into a new school (lmu) but also a more established school with a teaching hospital and really don't know which one to choose.

I perceive the schools without teaching hospitals as schools that should not be charging their 4th years the exorbitant amounts that they do, since the majority of their 4th year is not even spent on campus (and students still foot the bill for travel/housing to spend required time off campus). Can't say I know specifics of any of the programs, but my school has hosted students from Western and they've also brought up how expensive their fourth year ends up being on top of a full year's worth of tuition they get slapped with. it just doesn't make sense, but maybe someone has a better explanation as to why you'll be charged $50,000 to spend most of your year away from school and not using campus resources, faculty, etc. It should not be the same tuition you are charged years 1-3. Afaik (someone please correct me), the sites that actually host these fourth years don't even get a cut of this tuition money so it raises a lot of questions for me. I don't know that your education is harmed or anything I just have concerns related to tuition.

 

[awesomenessity]

I perceive the schools without teaching hospitals as schools that should not be charging their 4th years the exorbitant amounts that they do, since the majority of their 4th year is not even spent on campus (and students still foot the bill for travel/housing to spend required time off campus). Can't say I know specifics of any of the programs, but my school has hosted students from Western and they've also brought up how expensive their fourth year ends up being on top of a full year's worth of tuition they get slapped with. it just doesn't make sense, but maybe someone has a better explanation as to why you'll be charged $50,000 to spend most of your year away from school and not using campus resources, faculty, etc. It should not be the same tuition you are charged years 1-3. Afaik (someone please correct me), the sites that actually host these fourth years don't even get a cut of this tuition money so it raises a lot of questions for me. I don't know that your education is harmed or anything I just have concerns related to tuition.

I'm at one of these schools (in Canada though) and they give us a stipend for every rotation of $2k base + additional funds depending on how far out from a major city center you are. All of the travel for the international rotations is paid for/funded in some way. Almost all of the teaching clinics have somewhere you can stay for free/small fee as well. So not all schools with the distributed model are super expensive for fourth year. Doing some research into how the program handles fourth year is important 🙂

 

[CalliopeDVM]

So not all schools with the distributed model are super expensive for fourth year. Doing some research into how the program handles fourth year is important 🙂

The entire higher education model in Canada is different than in the US, though, so it's not a realistic comparison.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

How are new schools being perceived by those who are actually in vet school/graduated veterinarians? I have gotten into a new school (lmu) but also a more established school with a teaching hospital and really don't know which one to choose.

Go to the cheapest school. There will probably be a bit of stigma about graduates of the new schools for a while until the grads have shown themselves, in enough jobs, to be up to par -- but I think that shouldn't be a deal breaker if it would shave $50,000 or more off your total debt load. So, go to the cheapest school (including tuition, living & traveling expenses, etc).

 

[MixedAnimals77]

lmu is about $4000 cheaper a year

That's at least $16k difference not including interest or if either school increases their tuition. Here is the debt simulator to give you an idea of how much a difference that $16k will make. Personally for me it would be worth it assuming COL is similar. Student Debt Center - VIN

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm all for the cheaper the better and all... but if the difference is $4k a year (total cost of attendance) there is no way I would personally choose lmu over an established school with a teaching hospital. May be worth the savings for others, but it just wouldn't be for me.

The topic doesn't come up often at all because no one in practice cares all that much about what is happening in random vet schools they've never heard of (the longer people have been out, the less they typically care), but on the couple of occasions it has, the response was more along the lines of "why would anyone choose to go there?" Shrug. The end.

In my area, we see a lot of Ross graduates, and the general consensus is that even though there are duds in any school, there are many fantastic Ross grads. We've all seen them. And we know that Ross at least has (possibly somewhat exploitative) standards that lead to students who can't hack it to fail out or repeat until they can hack it. So while it's a last resort for many people, practitioners generally respect Rossies in practice. New schools like LMU just don't have that. There's really no exposure. And esp with how geographically far it is from where I practice, I doubt we'll be seeing many of their graduates anytime soon. So while I doubt they would be so discriminated against that they wouldnt be considered for a job, they probably wouldn't be a favored candidate either. Maybe I'm just overly judgmental and projecting unfairly to everyone around me, but I think there would be somewhat of a "damaged goods" stigma, like there must have been something wrong with you to have gone there, and you may need to prove you are worthy more so than if you graduated elsewhere. And there's the uncertainty in the quality of the program. Someone tell me if I'm wrong... has anyone in practice heard people be super excited about graduates from these schools? Or at least be just as enthusiastic about candidates from other more established schools? Maybe I just work only with uppity people, but this is the impression I've had from working at multiple multidoctor practices.

It's hard to be a new grad no matter what. I personally wouldn't choose to handicap myself if I had the choice not to.

 

[Quigly]

My opinion of people from Caribbean schools is based primarily on working with them in 4th year clinics. I thought there was a little higher percentage of duds from those schools than from standard US programs. However, there are also lots of exceptional practitioners coming out of those programs. It doesn't take long to figure out which group a person leans toward so I wouldn't hesitate to consider hiring one, I would just want to make sure I had some sense of their competency. I look at the newer distributive schools similarly, but have little experience with them.

One other consideration some people might make. You aren't going to be asking people how much debt they have when you are hiring them. However, if they are going to a $50,000/year college, that might give you some idea. If you are looking for someone to buy in down the road, I could see that being in the back of someones mind when hiring.

 

[pp9]

I'm at one of these schools (in Canada though) and they give us a stipend for every rotation of $2k base + additional funds depending on how far out from a major city center you are. All of the travel for the international rotations is paid for/funded in some way. Almost all of the teaching clinics have somewhere you can stay for free/small fee as well. So not all schools with the distributed model are super expensive for fourth year. Doing some research into how the program handles fourth year is important 🙂

Shouldn't have made a blanket statement about all schools without a teaching hospital, my apologies. Just assumed we were focusing on LMU and Western here since those are the schools that come to mind for everyone.

And I agree with Calliope, you Canadians have things figured out up there and don't try to screw students quite as much Like I said, the Western students I've met have paid out of pocket. Whether or not they had a stipend they burned through before paying out of pocket, I'm not sure, but they definitely said it was very expensive to get all of these experiences checked off. I've done just two externships that have required travel and housing and that was expensive enough for me.

I thought there was a little higher percentage of duds from those schools than from standard US programs

I agree with this to some extent, but my idea of 'dud' isn't solely based on clinical competency (not sure what you consider to be a 'dud'). I also consider teamwork abilities, patient care, etc. Some of the students that come to us clinical year never came in 2-3 hours before rounds like the rest of us for SOAPs/treatments so we would be the ones caring for their patients so they wouldn't go hungry/without meds (yes, they knew they were supposed to come in), refused to be on call, case dodged for a living, etc. A few students come in with a chip on their shoulders and it shows, many assimilate just fine and are great additions to our clinical year crowd. Considering that island students come in small groups compared to my class of 125, I do agree that a higher percentage of island students become notorious for certain things compared to how many of my classmates have earned a bad rep on clinics. My school is also far too tolerant of irresponsibility and pure laziness on clinics, but that is true for both island students and Illinois students. Another conversation for another day.

Illinois has several boarded clinicians who went to Ross, so in our community it seems that helps improve the Ross rep. It seems there are fewer specialists out there from SGU/SMU. I'm not trying to imply that there's any sort of reason those graduates wouldn't specialize, but it seems having specialists coming out of a program is validating in a way. Even US schools are pushing students to specialize more and more, as it bolsters their reputations. I think this was being discussed in another thread recently.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I've done just two externships that have required travel and housing and that was expensive enough for me.

OVC students have to do an externship of a minimum of 2 months in a mixed animal practice (or 1 month each in LA and SA) between 3rd and 4th year......those can get expensive for students who can't fulfill that near family (as a cheap place to stay). That's the only required externship - the school's clinical services make up the rest.

 

[pp9]

OVC students have to do an externship of a minimum of 2 months in a mixed animal practice (or 1 month each in LA and SA) between 3rd and 4th year......those can get expensive for students who can't fulfill that near family (as a cheap place to stay). That's the only required externship - the school's clinical services make up the rest.

Illinois doesn't have any technically 'required' externships but pretty much everyone does at least one. Our food animal students end up doing several because we are sorely lacking in swine, poultry, and small ruminant experience, and lacking a lot of herd management experience. Even our elective time can be taken on campus, a total of 16 weeks. We can go our entire fourth year without a single externship.

The idea that students are required to spend time off campus (that they have to foot the bill for) while still paying tuition has never sat well with me. Sort of like how students will pay $10,000 in tuition for study abroad, while paying separately for travel and room/board, and in some cases even paying some sort of tuition at study location. Just doesn't seem right. I know there are things like insurance coverage, liability, etc that come into play but still.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

We can go our entire fourth year without a single externship.

I think that's a real mistake, and spending time in a "regular" clinic is so important. But I understand the financial issue, as well.

 

[deleted498041]

Western will pay for any hotel fees and travel during your third year but not during your fourth year. For fourth year, you are on the hook for lodging, travel, as well as if the hospital or institution you're at charges a fee to host you. That's on top of our $54k/yr tuition. There isn't truly a "stipend" to draw from, if that makes sense. The school books any lodging or flights that they're paying for and you don't have any influence in those.

 

[pp9]

if the hospital or institution you're at charges a fee to host you.

seriously?! What's the reasoning behind that? Where does that money go?

 

[Squeaksmom]

I'm paying a fairly large sum for my week in Davis because I'm from a distributed school. The fee only applies to students from schools without a teaching hospital able to "provide reciprocal experience" for Davis students.

 

[JaynaAli]

seriously?! What's the reasoning behind that? Where does that money go?

Not for students so it's a different situation, but my residency program charges outside (usually private practice) residents $500/week to come rotate with us. The fees are usually paid by the visiting resident's hospital and the money goes into a fund to help pay for books and travel for us residents. It definitely slows down workflow to have a student with you and also takes away time/resources that you could use for an internal person, so it needs to be worth it.

 

[deleted498041]

seriously?! What's the reasoning behind that? Where does that money go?

The charge to the visiting student or the fact the school makes them pay? I imagine the schools require visiting students to pay because they're using that school's resources without paying tuition. It seems pretty common.

 

[pp9]

The charge to the visiting student or the fact the school makes them pay? I imagine the schools require visiting students to pay because they're using that school's resources without paying tuition. It seems pretty common.

My foggy fourth year brain interpreted this as private practices charging the student a fee, my bad. I've definitely heard of other teaching hospitals charging students tuition (and I think Ohio State even charges application fees per a classmate who wanted to extern there).

 

[Teepster87]

Ohio State charges a ridiculous amount to do a rotation there

 

[pp9]

Ohio State charges a ridiculous amount to do a rotation there

The cost deterred my classmate from applying.

 

[Teepster87]

The cost deterred my classmate from applying.

Same!
UC Davis has a like $180 fee I think for a 2-3 week rotation there, it increases if you spend a longer amount of time. I didn't think that was unreasonable

 

[Squeaksmom]

Same!
UC Davis has a like $180 fee I think for a 2-3 week rotation there, it increases if you spend a longer amount of time. I didn't think that was unreasonable

If you're from a distributed school (I am) add on another $475/week.

 

[Teepster87]

Thanks for adding that @Squeaksmom . I think this is something that a lot of people never think about when trying to plan externships

 

[Squeaksmom]

Thanks for adding that @Squeaksmom . I think this is something that a lot of people never think about when trying to plan externships

Of course! I'm very lucky that my parents are willing to help make Davis happen for me. Without them there's no way I could go!