New shadowing rules?

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3v0

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So I've been volunteering at a hospital recently and in the mean time I've tried to find an opportunity to shadow a doctor. No luck what so ever.

I also work at a country club and one of the members is the chief of surgery at the hospital I volunteer at. I asked if he knows any places that are shadow friendly. He said that recently someone got suit for something related to shadowing and that when he went to med school it was more common to shadow a physician, but now it's more unlikely and rare. He said that I'm more than welcome to come to the hospital though and watch a few surgeries when I want, but I cant do much more than that in terms of interacting with patients or the doctors bc of the rules/policies.

I def going to do this, but at the same time, does this count towards something I can put on an med school applications? I know it counts as "exposure" but is it worth putting down on the application? I know med school want you to have more personal shadowing experiences with a physician, not just watching surgeries through glass.
And also, has anyone heard of these new "rules?"
One of my friends just got a chance to shadow her doctor at a free clinic, so thats why I wasnt sure what he meant.
 
3v0 said:
So I've been volunteering at a hospital recently and in the mean time I've tried to find an opportunity to shadow a doctor. No luck what so ever.

I also work at a country club and one of the members is the chief of surgery at the hospital I volunteer at. I asked if he knows any places that are shadow friendly. He said that recently someone got suit for something related to shadowing and that when he went to med school it was more common to shadow a physician, but now it's more unlikely and rare. He said that I'm more than welcome to come to the hospital though and watch a few surgeries when I want, but I cant do much more than that in terms of interacting with patients or the doctors bc of the rules/policies.

I def going to do this, but at the same time, does this count towards something I can put on an med school applications? I know it counts as "exposure" but is it worth putting down on the application? I know med school want you to have more personal shadowing experiences with a physician, not just watching surgeries through glass.
And also, has anyone heard of these new "rules?"
One of my friends just got a chance to shadow her doctor at a free clinic, so thats why I wasnt sure what he meant.
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I know how you feel, I felt the same way when I was trying to do some shadowing. Observing procedures and watching physician-patient, physician-fillintheblank, etc relationships are all you really do during shadowing, nothing more. No doctor who wants to keep his/her ;license and job will allow a premed to do anything more than watch, so don't worry and dive right in. As you develop a relationship with him or other doctors in the practice, they will probably get you more and more involved in the hospital. Have fun and be ready to learn a lot 😀. By the way, something I would have done more actively if I were to redo my shadowing experiences is keep an organized notebook/journal (and update it on a regular basis!). I'd write extensively about the things I did, emotions I felt, people I talked to, and any other reflections/significant experiences I wouldn't want to forget. I can't imagine how helpful it would have been during applications (both personal statement and secondaries), especially if there's some time between your experience and time of application.

If by new rules he means HIPAA, then yes, there are restrictions about what volunteers may or may not do. However, I'm not sure how "new" these rules are (lol too lazy to google).
 
3v0 said:
So I've been volunteering at a hospital recently and in the mean time I've tried to find an opportunity to shadow a doctor. No luck what so ever.

I also work at a country club and one of the members is the chief of surgery at the hospital I volunteer at. I asked if he knows any places that are shadow friendly. He said that recently someone got suit for something related to shadowing and that when he went to med school it was more common to shadow a physician, but now it's more unlikely and rare. He said that I'm more than welcome to come to the hospital though and watch a few surgeries when I want, but I cant do much more than that in terms of interacting with patients or the doctors bc of the rules/policies.

I def going to do this, but at the same time, does this count towards something I can put on an med school applications? I know it counts as "exposure" but is it worth putting down on the application? I know med school want you to have more personal shadowing experiences with a physician, not just watching surgeries through glass.
And also, has anyone heard of these new "rules?"
One of my friends just got a chance to shadow her doctor at a free clinic, so thats why I wasnt sure what he meant.
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That is shadowing. What were you expecting to do?
 
Morzh said:
That is shadowing. What were you expecting to do?
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Agree

That is shadowing.

If you can find the right person most hospitals have someone who will let you sign all the right papers to be able to follow around a physician for the day. You'll have to sign these same papers to watch the surgery.

I never once "Shadowed" a physician as a pre-med and everything worked out fine for me. There are other ways to gain clinical experience, besides standing a corner for 8 hours while a physician does his thing.

And as a side note... Every now and then some doc will let a pre-med do something like sharing test results with a patient, or even throwing a stitch or 2. Don't put that on your application!!!! It makes you look reckless unless you have been previously trained for that sorta stuff.
 
FlowRate said:
Talk to Dr's, pt's, follow around a specific Dr. You know, shadowing stuff.
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Follow around yes, but talking, not so much.
Most doctors are so busy you'd be lucky to find time to even ask a few question (depends on the specialty, of course).
Talking to patients isn't really a good idea either, unless you want to be that ass hole pre-med going "couldn't the symptoms indicate...?"

Of course some casual small talk (in the rare situation where the doc has left something in his office and went to fetch it) is acceptable, but no patient will really make an effort or want to waste time on talking to a pre-med student when the time that can be spent with the doc is limited as it is. And the patients already are giving up quite a bit by allowing their patient-dr privilege to be violated. I guess every office has a bit of different atmosphere, but I think this is generally the case.
 
I once shadowed a neurosurgeon, he let me poke someones brain and when I did their leg kicked.

on a srs note, it helps if you know the doctor through some way, I got my first shadowing gig from someone we knew through family, then when I was with him in the hospital I just introduced myself to a lot of different doctors and eventually got a couple others to let me (all of who were very friendly and loved their job so it was fun shadowing them since they taught me a lot and let me even interact with patients)
 
KindofBlue said:
Follow around yes, but talking, not so much.
Most doctors are so busy you'd be lucky to find time to even ask a few question (depends on the specialty, of course).
Talking to patients isn't really a good idea either, unless you want to be that ass hole pre-med going "couldn't the symptoms indicate...?"

Of course some casual small talk (in the rare situation where the doc has left something in his office and went to fetch it) is acceptable, but no patient will really make an effort or want to waste time on talking to a pre-med student when the time that can be spent with the doc is limited as it is. And the patients already are giving up quite a bit by allowing their patient-dr privilege to be violated. I guess every office has a bit of different atmosphere, but I think this is generally the case.
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Given I've shadowed like 5 doctors and I always manage to chat with them or ask clinical questions (some even pimped me. obviously I didn't know the answers, so they'd then explain) at opportune times, yes, talking is part of the deal. I talked with a good number of patients, too. Small talk, passing time, keeping their mind off of whatever was going on, hearing about their medical decision-making etc.
 
3v0 said:
So I've been volunteering at a hospital recently and in the mean time I've tried to find an opportunity to shadow a doctor. No luck what so ever.

I also work at a country club and one of the members is the chief of surgery at the hospital I volunteer at. I asked if he knows any places that are shadow friendly. He said that recently someone got suit for something related to shadowing and that when he went to med school it was more common to shadow a physician, but now it's more unlikely and rare. He said that I'm more than welcome to come to the hospital though and watch a few surgeries when I want, but I cant do much more than that in terms of interacting with patients or the doctors bc of the rules/policies.

I def going to do this, but at the same time, does this count towards something I can put on an med school applications? I know it counts as "exposure" but is it worth putting down on the application? I know med school want you to have more personal shadowing experiences with a physician, not just watching surgeries through glass.
And also, has anyone heard of these new "rules?"
One of my friends just got a chance to shadow her doctor at a free clinic, so thats why I wasnt sure what he meant.
Click to expand...

I don't know about other places but at a hospital near me we're only allowed 8 hrs of shadowing per year 😡 lame I know.

Your best bet and I learned this myself is to shadow them at their clinic or small private practice from my experience they seem much more lenient than big hospitals. :luck: mate!
 
Tired said:
Ditto.

I've never understood the attraction of this. You're going to be bored, you're not going to understand half of what the physician does, and you're going to have to do a ton of that crap as an MS3 anyway. The whole thing sounds stupid.
Click to expand...

Don't know if srs..........

Anyways, it's nice to see what you're getting yourself into. Long schooling, big commitment, lots of money than to realize by 3d year that you hate the nature of the work = you're in dip ****!!
 
While shadowing my CT surgeon I almost had the opportunity to completely scrub up, and he was going to let me feel the heart beat and the difference between an old and replaced aortic valve. The only thing in my way was the paperwork, which would take 2+ months to clear, by which point I would be knee deep in fall semester.

Point being - it is possible to "do more," but not much more. As said before, what you are being offered is pretty much the whole shadowing experience.
 
Tired said:
I'm deadly serious.

In my mind, shadowing is a way of mistaking form over function. Lacking the context of what goes into taking a patient history, performing an exam, running through diagnostic possibilities, and formulating a diagnosis/treatment plan, all you can really see is the mechanics of the activity. You go into a room, talk the patient, touch the patient, then prescribe medicine.

It would be equivalent to "shadowing" a scientist. They sit at bench all day, play with machines, and type out reports. This gives you zero insight into what a scientist actually does.

The only benefit I see of shadowing is providing an opportunity to talk to a physician, in general terms, about the profession. Beyond that, I believe that any insight it gives students into "what they are getting into" is largely illusory.
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Well, it doesn't matter if it's useless or not. Some schools require it, so it's bad advice to say "don't do it."

Schools I'm thinking of that require shadowing include UWash, Utah, and Creighton. There may be others that don't have such information posted publicly on their website.

It also varies by adcom member reviewing your file, of course.
 
Tired said:
I'm deadly serious.

In my mind, shadowing is a way of mistaking form over function. Lacking the context of what goes into taking a patient history, performing an exam, running through diagnostic possibilities, and formulating a diagnosis/treatment plan, all you can really see is the mechanics of the activity. You go into a room, talk the patient, touch the patient, then prescribe medicine.

It would be equivalent to "shadowing" a scientist. They sit at bench all day, play with machines, and type out reports. This gives you zero insight into what a scientist actually does.

The only benefit I see of shadowing is providing an opportunity to talk to a physician, in general terms, about the profession. Beyond that, I believe that any insight it gives students into "what they are getting into" is largely illusory.
Click to expand...

For me, it was more the opportunity to see the patient/doctor relationship from the other side, and to gain a relationship with a doctor (as I don't have a primary physician). Also, it was a way for me to ensure that medicine was really what I wanted to do (as personal statementesque as that is, it's the truth). I had the free time, and I had the opening, and it has been the best experience of my life. Through this one doctor I've met dozens and shadowed two others (and probably a medical examiner next week). In a busier area I can see how shadowing wouldn't be worth it, but where I'm at right now, in a rural area, every doctor has done their best to explain all that they can to me, and to explain in their individual points of view the pro's and con's of medicine.

I also learned that The Byrds are apparently the greatest band ever, but that's besides the point. :meanie:
 
Tired said:
I'm deadly serious.

In my mind, shadowing is a way of mistaking form over function. Lacking the context of what goes into taking a patient history, performing an exam, running through diagnostic possibilities, and formulating a diagnosis/treatment plan, all you can really see is the mechanics of the activity. You go into a room, talk the patient, touch the patient, then prescribe medicine.

It would be equivalent to "shadowing" a scientist. They sit at bench all day, play with machines, and type out reports. This gives you zero insight into what a scientist actually does.

The only benefit I see of shadowing is providing an opportunity to talk to a physician, in general terms, about the profession. Beyond that, I believe that any insight it gives students into "what they are getting into" is largely illusory.
Click to expand...
As if the average american has no context for the medical process. I go shadow in the ED, and I see that the doc is taking care of lots of patients, always working fast, explains some of his non-differentiated decision-making to me, reads some imaging reports, etc. Very exciting.

I shadow the FM whose middle-elderly patients mostly complain of some vague pain and their desire for pain meds. He doesn't have a ton of patients, but does do a ton of paperwork. Not too exciting.

The rad/onc plays with imaging/optimization programs, traces things, does some procedures, gets lunch, interesting.

The heme/onc spent a lot of time managing blood levels. Seemed very problem-solving-y, but boring to the premed and confusing to the pt. She showed good dr-pt interaction tho.

So anyway, I wrote a lot to try and give examples of how each specialist (not an exhaustive list) I shadowed gave a different feel for what it's like to be a physician.
 
Tired said:
This is a great example of what I'm talking about. You observed isolated practice- and location-specific workflow, and then drew (incorrect) general conclusions about specific medical specialties. That has next to nothing to do with the actual practice of medicine.

It's like watching a Anthony Weiner tweet pictures of his ****, and deciding that you want to be a politician because you like nailing hot chicks.
Click to expand...

Re-read my final statement:

"So anyway, I wrote a lot to try and give examples of how each specialist (not an exhaustive list) I shadowed gave a different feel for what it's like to be a physician."

I drew aggregate experiential data from significantly different practice settings to get an overall feel for what it's like to be a physician, in general.

It's like getting pictures of politicians ****s and having an idea of what the average politicians **** looks like, if that's the sort of thing you're into.

**** is obviously face, for you pervy mods.
 
The stuff that doctors allow you to participate in really vary. However, I notice that doctors in their own private practice tend to allow me to do some stuff. I shadowed a family doc who allowed me to go in and meet the patient first and talk to them/find out about their story. A dermatologist that I shadowed allowed me to help suture (I did some of the cutting). Some doctors just wanted me to stand in a specific spot and watch. It all depends on the doctor. However, it is just shadowing which is pretty much synonymous with observing.
 
I got to do vitals on patients at a Oncology clinic, and helped draw blood in a Hospital ER.😀
 
FlowRate said:
Given I've shadowed like 5 doctors and I always manage to chat with them or ask clinical questions (some even pimped me. obviously I didn't know the answers, so they'd then explain) at opportune times, yes, talking is part of the deal. I talked with a good number of patients, too. Small talk, passing time, keeping their mind off of whatever was going on, hearing about their medical decision-making etc.
Click to expand...

I agree with Flow here.

Also, depending on your relationship with the physician or institution they may let you be more involved (on an extremely basic scale, e.g. where I was a former clerk/tech the attending had one of the interns teach me to do a history, which was of course supervised).

But for the most part, you should be expecting to follow and watch, hence the term shadow. If staff is able to speak with you more in detail or teach you something, that's a substantial bonus but it shouldn't be expected.
 
ALL of the hospitals i've called have told me that they don't allow shadowing because of liability issues. i understand, but geez, what am i supposed to do 🙁

i feel your pain, OP. very frustrating
 
Eff the rules.

"If they give you ruled paper, write the other way" -Juan Ramon Jimenez
 
3v0 said:
someones a miscer. lol
Click to expand...

Haha, actually I just went to misc this week to check out the conspiracy ideas in his RIP thread. Never been before. My friend showed him to me back in August. Very inspirational funny guy.
 
Thanks guys! I guess in my mind, I imagined being next to the doctor/ being in the same room and just watching them work. I would assume schools want you to have some kind of GP experience.

I'm totally going to take advantage of the surgery observation though. I mean, to be honest, if I had to choose today I would want to go into surgery.

One of my friends got a shadowing position with her doctor, but has to commute an hour to get to his other office. She said the first day she just followed him into patient rooms, learned how how the charts are setup and also was shown how to setup an EKG. Thats kind of what I was imagining.
Either way, I'll take what I can get. So far I've only been working at a nurses station answering patient room phone calls.

On a side note, I thought ALL schools want you to have shadowing experience. Not that its required, but just in the sense that it looks bad if you don't. Does anyone know how it works for DO schools? I'm honestly planning on apply to 3-4 MD schools and the rest DO. I kinda of have my goal set on a DO school that is 45 min from my house.
 
AestheticMed said:
Haha, actually I just went to misc this week to check out the conspiracy ideas in his RIP thread. Never been before. My friend showed him to me back in August. Very inspirational funny guy.
Click to expand...

yeah, I just occasionally go on. I'm still not 100% convinced but if its true that is very sad.
 
chocchipcookie said:
ALL of the hospitals i've called have told me that they don't allow shadowing because of liability issues. i understand, but geez, what am i supposed to do 🙁

i feel your pain, OP. very frustrating
Click to expand...

Have you tried asking the doctor directly? Sometime if you get direct permission from the doctor you would be able to get in. If not then you should try calling doctors offices that aren't in the hospital. The owner(s) of the office would then determine whether you could shadow or not.
 
AestheticMed said:
Haha, actually I just went to misc this week to check out the conspiracy ideas in his RIP thread. Never been before. My friend showed him to me back in August. Very inspirational funny guy.
Click to expand...




miscer????
 
I think if most who have yet to volunteer at a hospital and go through all the training regarding HIPAA and other procedures should at least educate themselves on some of that as much as possible. If you let the physician you want to shadow know right off the bat, that you acknowledge what HIPAA is all about and the liability issues, it would put them a bit more at ease.

At my hospital I've already heard a few stories of med students getting kicked out because of breaking a HIPAA provision.
 
Drogo said:
I think if most who have yet to volunteer at a hospital and go through all the training regarding HIPAA and other procedures should at least educate themselves on some of that as much as possible. If you let the physician you want to shadow know right off the bat, that you acknowledge what HIPAA is all about and the liability issues, it would put them a bit more at ease.

At my hospital I've already heard a few stories of med students getting kicked out because of breaking a HIPAA provision.
Click to expand...

The BEST way to shadow a doctor is to volunteer at a hospital and email the doctors at THAT hospital. As a volunteer (at least at my hospital), I had to go through HIPAA training, I passed through HR screening, I had my immunization records on file, and I already had patient contact. When I emailed doctors, I stated that I had already done everything listed above. I expected to maybe get 1 or 2 replies back out of the 50 emails I sent out. To my surprise, I received dozens of emails from physicians that were interested.
 
OP, where I did some shadowing, I was asked to get clearance as a volunteer first. This way I was technically HIPAA compliant - that was the major concern, as I'd have access to sensitive information.

Since I wanted to volunteer anyways, this wasn't an issue. There are other ways to get cleared on this; usually an online course or a short training that is tedious but necessary.
 
Bl4ckout said:
I know people who did suction during a surgery. However I was never blessed with this opportunity.
Click to expand...

For that, I think it's really how you present yourself. I know people during my clinicals and they didn't asset themselves therefore they didn't get to do anything. But I got to see and do a bunch of stuff. But also they might not be okay with you doing things such as that due to liability.
 
macsta said:
The BEST way to shadow a doctor is to volunteer at a hospital and email the doctors at THAT hospital. As a volunteer (at least at my hospital), I had to go through HIPAA training, I passed through HR screening, I had my immunization records on file, and I already had patient contact. When I emailed doctors, I stated that I had already done everything listed above. I expected to maybe get 1 or 2 replies back out of the 50 emails I sent out. To my surprise, I received dozens of emails from physicians that were interested.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's a great idea, I plan to also do the same in the near future. As of right now I'm in the Radiology department. Hopefully I get to do more than just run paperwork.
 
Drogo said:
Yeah that's a great idea, I plan to also do the same in the near future. As of right now I'm in the Radiology department. Hopefully I get to do more than just run paperwork.
Click to expand...

Try to volunteer at a children's hospital in the Child Life department. I do bedside visits to children that are on contact or droplet isolation, I transport patients (3 months-21 years old) to and from the playroom, and I play with the children 1-on-1 for hours. It is truly an excellent volunteer experience if you are looking for patient contact (but it doesn't substitute for shadowing a physician).

I have had other "hospital volunteering experiences" before. I was basically trapped in a file room, sold flowers, or sat at the circulation desk. All of which blow.
 
I asked some friends of my family that are doctors and they didn't mind. The only rule I ever heard was that a hospital wouldn't let people shadow in the OR.
 
As for emailing doctors, I dont think it will fly at this hospital. I mentioned it to the volunteer director and she said they dont allow shadowing at the hospital b/c of the hippa rules. So I think watching the surgery is about as far as I can go at this location. I'll look into it more tomorrow when I go in.
But maybe one of the doctors will be able to let me shadow at a different location. I'll just have to wait and see.

Also, anyone here consider being a patient care tech? The hospital offers the class for free other than book cost. But from what I read it isnt that great.
 
3v0 said:
As for emailing doctors, I dont think it will fly at this hospital. I mentioned it to the volunteer director and she said they dont allow shadowing at the hospital b/c of the hippa rules. So I think watching the surgery is about as far as I can go at this location. I'll look into it more tomorrow when I go in.
But maybe one of the doctors will be able to let me shadow at a different location. I'll just have to wait and see.
Click to expand...

A lot of "old school" docs don't care about the new rules.
 
This topic is so humorous. I just had my first shadowing experience a few weeks back. Going into it I thought I would just be standing there, not saying a word.

After the first patient, the doc I shadowed asked, "Do you know how to take a blood pressure?"

I had no idea. So, she gave me a crash course in it. After the next 3-4 patients, where I would take the blood pressure and listen to their lungs, check their ears, nose, heart, she said, "alright, go in and see why they are here, check what you know to check, and I'll be in in 5 minutes."

I was like, "ALRIGHT!!!!" and scurried into the room.

Semi-long story short, I got to play doctor for 5 different patients.

The doctor was an IM specialist in private practice.

Who's jelly? 😎
 
Btv22 said:
This topic is so humorous. I just had my first shadowing experience a few weeks back. Going into it I thought I would just be standing there, not saying a word.

After the first patient, the doc I shadowed asked, "Do you know how to take a blood pressure?"

I had no idea. So, she gave me a crash course in it. After the next 3-4 patients, where I would take the blood pressure and listen to their lungs, check their ears, nose, heart, she said, "alright, go in and see why they are here, check what you know to check, and I'll be in in 5 minutes."

I was like, "ALRIGHT!!!!" and scurried into the room.

Semi-long story short, I got to play doctor for 5 different patients.

The doctor was an IM specialist in private practice.

Who's jelly? 😎
Click to expand...

Psh BP is so easy to do.🙄
 
Btv22 said:
This topic is so humorous. I just had my first shadowing experience a few weeks back. Going into it I thought I would just be standing there, not saying a word.

After the first patient, the doc I shadowed asked, "Do you know how to take a blood pressure?"

I had no idea. So, she gave me a crash course in it. After the next 3-4 patients, where I would take the blood pressure and listen to their lungs, check their ears, nose, heart, she said, "alright, go in and see why they are here, check what you know to check, and I'll be in in 5 minutes."

I was like, "ALRIGHT!!!!" and scurried into the room.

Semi-long story short, I got to play doctor for 5 different patients.

The doctor was an IM specialist in private practice.

Who's jelly? 😎
Click to expand...
ducktales.jpg

:laugh:
 
Shadowing is obviously superficial, but would you buy a $200,000 car without ever having seen it in person?
 
bucks2010 said:
Shadowing is obviously superficial, but would you buy a $200,000 car without ever having seen it in person?
Click to expand...

I would have to be a millionaire inorder to even think about buying a $200,000 car. If I was a millionaire, I would have 100s of cars in my garage. So, YES i would buy a $200,000 car without seeing it or taking it for a test drive... all I would need to know is the make and model.

Oh, wait. Is is one of those medical school analogies?
 
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