New Trend: underemployed pharmacists with residency?

Started by BMBiology
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BMBiology

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I have been noticing more and more pharmacists with PGY-1 who can't either find work or are underemployed. I wish I have some data to back this up but I am certainly not surprised. Retails are not hiring as many pharmacists as before so more graduates are doing PGY-1. However, hospitals have also been cutting and one way to cut cost is to add a resident rather than to hire a full time pharmacist. But after their PGY-1, they are not offered a position so they drift from one place to another.

Have you been noticing the same thing?


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Remember a lot of these PGY1 pharmacists are hire by the school of pharmacy. If pharmacy schools start to cut, a lot of them will be affected.
 
I have been noticing more and more pharmacists with PGY-1 who can't either find work or are underemployed. I wish I have some data to back this up but I am certainly not surprised. Retails are not hiring as many pharmacists as before so more graduates are doing PGY-1. However, hospitals have also been cutting and one way to cut cost is to add a resident rather than to hire a full time pharmacist. But after their PGY-1, they are not offered a position so they drift from one place to another.
Have you been noticing the same thing?
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Yup.
I've also noticed that some of the PGY1ers from my class were poor students with bad personalities.
Combined with the socially anxious book worms, they aren't exactly interview killers
 
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Why hire pharmacists when they can use residents for half the pay. I know some hospitals that have been doubling their number of residents every year.
 
I noticed this too. I have lots of evidence supporting this, but I am not allowed to link their LinkedIn profiles on this forum. The typical profile goes like this:

-large gap between graduation and PGY-1 start date
-large gap between PGY-1 end date and 1st retail job
-large gap between 1st retail job and 2nd retail job
 

This would get me before the Title IX Inquisition, but I'd say that's an old story and you can replace pharmacy with any job. Before I was tenured, there's some sexism involved among the senior faculty that spending all those resources on women indiscriminately would be disappointing as you'd find plenty of examples of your Rho Chi women dropping out of the workforce to raise children after status chasing. Now that I'm older, I agree to some extent, but the Rho Chi guys are no exception to dropping from the labor force as this is an equal rights era and marriage status equality (assortative mating) is in full force 🙂.

I've now think that most people (including candidates) don't really have an idea what it's like to practice or research (see the question I answered today with respect to PharmD or PhD), and you can tell by the way the question is formulated. What most are enamored with is the status rather than the work. When confronted outside the academic environment with the nature of the profession, people who made it academically don't translate that success into professional employment success and find themselves lost when the work is more "sticky" than academics, what I mean is that the longer-term consequences of pump and dump personalities starts to not pay. You can't be a status hound in a hospital as you're not all equal and not starting together, a fresh off residency pharmacist competes for the same jobs I would and we both compete with even more experienced pharmacists for better jobs. You have to consistently deliver good work, and it's Pass or Fail but the Pass bar is really high.

I know I was in the lower part of the upper tier in my pharmacy class (I barely took MCL), and there were quite a number of people ahead of me that were much more academically superior. Hilariously enough, I made a fairly substantial bet in writing with one of the admin faculty that the ones considered most successful a decade later were from my friends rather than the upper tier students. Of course, I won the bet because we all knew everyone's (lack of) working habits. It's to the people who consistently are no-drama, solid competent workers that win day in and day out over time. Intelligence, charisma, they help but aren't decisive in the way that quiet work ethic and emotionally stable contribute to longevity. If you do have the work ethic and have charisma and sense of mordant humor in particular, you'll go far in a profession with mostly colorless tools (I am proudly a member of those colorless tools). If we could select against certain neuroses, it would help, but I don't think giving the MMPI to every prospective job candidate is going to fly.

Since I see the burnout cases for pharmacy and medicine, the usual profile is:
1. Must work (so feels trapped)
2. Immediate debt-free (as in doesn't owe more than 30% of takehome pay to a mortgage, student, or revolving debt), so no imminent danger reason to work
3. Lacks coping/socialization mechanisms for work
4. Has maladapted social and private habits or sacrificed too much at home
5. (People say this about me, so I get it.) "Behind every successful pharmacist is the spouse who made it necessary."

I don't know what to say, it's like me walking into the MFA Creative Writing program at the University. Before, it was this kind of hippy sort of place where you could smell the ganja long before you entered the building with a bunch of layabouts writing with a hangover on a 1960s puke yellow couch. Now, it's this slick corporate polished environment because they're trying to sell you something, the status of being a (successful) writer, not adding in the fine print that most writers are on the Echo Spring trip (writer's euphemism for being high or recovering from a hangover) and success is on the same probability as being struck by lightning twice as most authors never complete more than their short stories and first (and last) novel.

Pharmacy and medicine both have done a bad job of screening people out that join for the status and not for the work. I'd say that's not my problem and that's their fault for not knowing, but do you understand that hiring is a special hell nowadays as it's impossible to tell with the normal HR process who is and who isn't employable over the duration? What I'm sad about is the station reports in VA about the young pharmacists quitting literally two weeks before they would make career as "it's too hard to work here" not knowing they threw away their entire status and got them 12b'ed out of a future federal job. Ah well, I suppose there's more where they came from, but I'd rather hire for longer periods to someone who just does the $*(#ing work sans drama than the flameouts that we continually see.
 
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This definitely appears to be the case. Even worse, many students are opting into 2-year residency programs, fellowships, and MBA programs to out-compete their peers.
That is a difficult situation with over 200k in debt. Even the state college graduates are coming out with 200k plus in many states.
 
Idk if it's the midwest or just my school, but they continue to show a high 90 percent employment.

To me it comes down to the same things: internship (not residency), networking, and willing to move.
 
Idk if it's the midwest or just my school, but they continue to show a high 90 percent employment.

To me it comes down to the same things: internship (not residency), networking, and willing to move.

I hear Donald trump says the economy sucks too...no data, but he knows more than us so sure.


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To make a joke at ND's expense, NDSU has ALWAYS had very high employment and passage statistics, high career potential from the graduates, and high emigration because who would want to stay in Fargo😉?! Seriously, there is an NDSU clique in the civil service (John Ogden) and in Walgreens (Dave Bernauer) as they have nowhere else to go but up from Fargo even if they stay in ND. These city kids at UMN, uff da...I'm embarrassed at their failure rate.
 
Why is a community position considered underemployed if you have a residency? You're sill working in your field and probably in a position that pays more than your preferred job site. A residency trained pharm will still be applying their additional training, etc

Also, I consider people's unwillingness to relocate the biggest reason people see the market as saturated. I can get you a job tomorrow but you won't take it because it's in a location that's below you
 
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Also, I consider people's unwillingness to relocate the biggest reason people see the market as saturated. I can get you a job tomorrow but you won't take it because it's in a location that's below you

I think that is a huge fallacy on this forum. While it is easier to find a job in the middle of nowhere for obvious reason, there are not that many jobs in rural America. Soon, these jobs will be gone too. How many pharmacists do you need in a town with a population of 10,000?


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I suspect the Pareto Principle at play here in some form. 80% of the jobs in 20% of the geography or something like that. I've never understood the rationalization of how a pittance of boondock jobs is going to absorb the fire hydrant gushing of 15K new grads per annum.
 
Another fallacy is to think you can always work in retail if you did a residency and can't find a hospital job.

Retail jobs are very competitive nowadays. If you did not intern with them and you have not worked in retail in ages, what make you think you are more competitive than retail pharmacists?


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Another fallacy is to think you can always work in retail if you did a residency and can't find a hospital job.

Retail jobs are very competitive nowadays. If you did not intern with them and you have not worked in retail in ages, what make you think you are more competitive than retail pharmacists?


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Plus if you did a residency, retail DMs will think that you'll bolt back to hospital at the first opportunity, so why bother wasting their time and money training you?
 
I didn't know such thing existed until I started pharm school. What do they even do After they are done with residency?

I know a few people who did one of these. Some go into academia. Another pharmacist I know does corporate-level clinical activities for a chain. So there are settings where one of these would be useful.
 
I know a few people who did one of these. Some go into academia. Another pharmacist I know does corporate-level clinical activities for a chain. So there are settings where one of these would be useful.
agree - I think this is a VERY SMALL niche - I did rotations at a place (10 + years ago) that had a community resident - they did a lot of MTM stuff, health fairs, etc. They only staffed the retail side once a week
 
I know a few people who did one of these. Some go into academia. Another pharmacist I know does corporate-level clinical activities for a chain. So there are settings where one of these would be useful.

Aaah ok. Good for people who wants go in academia. I wonder what if person couldn't get teaching or that clinical job, do they end up in retail?
 
agree - I think this is a VERY SMALL niche - I did rotations at a place (10 + years ago) that had a community resident - they did a lot of MTM stuff, health fairs, etc. They only staffed the retail side once a week

I talked to couple of preceptors at my school who are residents, it's seem like they all want to teach someday.
 
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Aaah ok. Good for people who wants go in academia. I wonder what if person couldn't get teaching or that clinical job, do they end up in retail?
that is why I said, VERY SMALL, there are probably 5x the number of residencies than there are actual jobs like this
 
I hope not. Community pharmacy residencies and their residents deserve to be mocked and ridiculed .

The only reason I could see doing it would be for the access to academia. Even then, I would think it would be better to get a general PGY 1. I can't imagine doing my job at 1/3 pay.
 
Another fallacy is to think you can always work in retail if you did a residency and can't find a hospital job.

Retail jobs are very competitive nowadays. If you did not intern with them and you have not worked in retail in ages, what make you think you are more competitive than retail pharmacists?


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Thank you x 100. "I can always get a job in retail in the boonies?" LMAO!
 
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I already posted this elsewhere, but I found this thread to be more relevant for this rant...

I expect three very important policy changes in the Trump administration that will affect "clinical" pharmacists significantly:
  • Budget cuts to the VA health system --> Less budget for "clinical" pharmacists to be employed at the VA. They'll just have the real doctors do more work. And those dollars are gonna be funneled to the private sector where NPs/PAs do the "clinical" things that pharmacists can only do in government institutions.
  • Budget cuts to medicare/medicaid --> private non-profit and for-profit hospitals will see cuts in reimbursement. Guess who they'll fire? Its not the real doctors! And it's not the pharmacists who are willing to do the verification and dispensing in the basement. Goodbye annoying clinical pharmacists. Don't bother coming to the Red Devil or Waggies; we don't want your smug attitudes here either.
  • Budget cuts that affect public health/research grants --> Goodbye to funding for public health (I'm not referring to PHS) projects. I keep on seeing lame clinical pharmacists talk about the great work they do in some underserved healthcare center or (more likely) university medical center. All they do is drug information, drug management, blood pressure management, asthma inhaler teaching (LOL, WTF), opioid addiction management, smoking cessation counseling (YOU ARE ****ING KIDDING ME!), adult immunizations, etc. There was very little funding for these kinds of niche, useless projects anyway, but with the Republicans in control, I expect any current funding for these activities to be cut significantly.
It's gonna be fun seeing all those pre-pharmers blow 200-300K in loans on a degree for a job that doesn't exist.
 
I already posted this elsewhere, but I found this thread to be more relevant for this rant...

I expect three very important policy changes in the Trump administration that will affect "clinical" pharmacists significantly:
  • Budget cuts to the VA health system --> Less budget for "clinical" pharmacists to be employed at the VA. They'll just have the real doctors do more work. And those dollars are gonna be funneled to the private sector where NPs/PAs do the "clinical" things that pharmacists can only do in government institutions.
  • Budget cuts to medicare/medicaid --> private non-profit and for-profit hospitals will see cuts in reimbursement. Guess who they'll fire? Its not the real doctors! And it's not the pharmacists who are willing to do the verification and dispensing in the basement. Goodbye annoying clinical pharmacists. Don't bother coming to the Red Devil or Waggies; we don't want your smug attitudes here either.
  • Budget cuts that affect public health/research grants --> Goodbye to funding for public health (I'm not referring to PHS) projects. I keep on seeing lame clinical pharmacists talk about the great work they do in some underserved healthcare center or (more likely) university medical center. All they do is drug information, drug management, blood pressure management, asthma inhaler teaching (LOL, WTF), opioid addiction management, smoking cessation counseling (YOU ARE ****ING KIDDING ME!), adult immunizations, etc. There was very little funding for these kinds of niche, useless projects anyway, but with the Republicans in control, I expect any current funding for these activities to be cut significantly.
It's gonna be fun seeing all those pre-pharmers blow 200-300K in loans on a degree for a job that doesn't exist.

You could very well be right about the VA. However from my point of view I hear trump say he is going to take care of the veterans, and without privatizing the VA one of the best way to do that is with ambulatory care pharmacists. At my va our physicians are a revolving door, too much expectations, no support from the admin, low pay. Having ambulatory care pharmacists have decreased wait times and improved quality of care as far as managing disease states. The only way I see it being cut is through privatizing the va, which I doubt happens in a 4 year term
 
I can't seem to be able to post a quote, but about the VA, "without privatizing" is the key, when he said he wants to partially privatize it through letting all veterans choice themselves into private practice if they wish (which will cost the country more money). Censuses will then be down and each facility will get less money, therefore getting rid of pharmacists. I was looking up UCFE the other day (unemployment compensation for federal employees). Anyone know anything about it?
 
I can't seem to be able to post a quote, but about the VA, "without privatizing" is the key, when he said he wants to partially privatize it through letting all veterans choice themselves into private practice if they wish (which will cost the country more money). Censuses will then be down and each facility will get less money, therefore getting rid of pharmacists. I was looking up UCFE the other day (unemployment compensation for federal employees). Anyone know anything about it?

Only time will tell. I hope that is not the case. On the bright side of the veterans have to get the medicine filled through the va for coverage that in itself will create jobs as our non-va pharmacist is already swamped
 
Only time will tell. I hope that is not the case. On the bright side of the veterans have to get the medicine filled through the va for coverage that in itself will create jobs as our non-va pharmacist is already swamped

They already do...and it hasn't created jobs. Just because pharmacists are swamped doesn't mean more work can't be piled onto them by management. You will learn this soon.
 
They already do...and it hasn't created jobs. Just because pharmacists are swamped doesn't mean more work can't be piled onto them by management. You will learn this soon.

My personal va has been very good at getting new jobs approved as our workload has expanded (even already got one approved for additional non va help). Each va is different, sorry your va seems to hand you more work then you seem to be able to handle.[/QUOTE]
 
Aaah ok. Good for people who wants go in academia. I wonder what if person couldn't get teaching or that clinical job, do they end up in retail?
A close friend of mine that graduated in '15 completed a community residency this year. He attracted quite some interesting offers including one from a retail giant as a clinical liaison. Part of his responsibility was to update and educate staff pharmacists on changes to treatment guidelines where applicable. He was to be assigned multiple stores to tend to at a time. Daytime shift plus weekends off. I have to tell you, I pondered on pursuing that route for a while. But luck was in town of course.

Sadly, he ended up in retail because the offers were not at his desired location.


At the end of the day, residencies--community or not--are merely professional tools that will only be useful to the one who knows how to effectively wield them. You have to have a plan with these credentials, from what I gather. Otherwise, you will end up with more regrets.

Oh....and never, EVER trust public opinion. Do the necessary research yourself.
 
A close friend of mine that graduated in '15 completed a community residency this year. He attracted quite some interesting offers including one from a retail giant as a clinical liaison. Part of his responsibility was to update and educate staff pharmacists on changes to treatment guidelines where applicable. He was to be assigned multiple stores to tend to at a time. Daytime shift plus weekends off. I have to tell you, I pondered on pursuing that route for a while. But luck was in town of course.

Sadly, he ended up in retail because the offers were not at his desired location.


At the end of the day, residencies--community or not--are merely professional tools that will only be useful to the one who knows how to effectively wield them. You have to have a plan with these credentials, from what I gather. Otherwise, you will end up with more regrets.

Oh....and never, EVER trust public opinion. Do the necessary research yourself.

I hope they have a backup plan. That sounds like the first job I would cut if I was a corporate executive trying to reduce labor costs.
 
A close friend of mine that graduated in '15 completed a community residency this year. He attracted quite some interesting offers including one from a retail giant as a clinical liaison. Part of his responsibility was to update and educate staff pharmacists on changes to treatment guidelines where applicable. He was to be assigned multiple stores to tend to at a time. Daytime shift plus weekends off. I have to tell you, I pondered on pursuing that route for a while. But luck was in town of course.

Sadly, he ended up in retail because the offers were not at his desired location.


At the end of the day, residencies--community or not--are merely professional tools that will only be useful to the one who knows how to effectively wield them. You have to have a plan with these credentials, from what I gather. Otherwise, you will end up with more regrets.

Oh....and never, EVER trust public opinion. Do the necessary research yourself.

That's exactly what I thought. In my opinion, doing hospital/community residency is huge risk in this market especially if you are graduating with 100 K+ In debt.
 
I hope they have a backup plan. That sounds like the first job I would cut if I was a corporate executive trying to reduce labor costs.
Indeed. Too good to last long.

That's exactly what I thought. In my opinion, doing hospital/community residency is huge risk in this market especially if you are graduating with 100 K+ In debt.
Risky when you are just following the Rho Chi crowd and faculty choruses with no strategy of your own. Very useful though, if you are truly passionate about clinical practice or specializing.

However, it looks like network + good work ethics + the right attitude = best general residency program. No pay cuts either, if that's a main concern to you.

And I hope not to discourage any prospective resident(s). All I'm saying is to make sure you understand that it is really, really what you want to do.
 
That's exactly what I thought. In my opinion, doing hospital/community residency is huge risk in this market especially if you are graduating with 100 K+ In debt.

Considering how expensive even most public pharmacy schools are these days, it almost sounds irresponsible to do a residency and then continue to take a significant paycut (as compared to working in retail) by getting a hospital pharmacist job afterwards. I know retail is supposed to suck, but wouldn't it be a better idea to try to find a good middle-ground between high retail pay and work/stress balance by getting a grocery store job? Then you'd be able to enjoy the higher pay that is associated with retail jobs (maybe not quite as high for a grocery store pharmacist), and not nearly as stressful of a work day as CVS/Walgreens pharmacists put up with.
 
Considering how expensive even most public pharmacy schools are these days, it almost sounds irresponsible to do a residency and then continue to take a significant paycut (as compared to working in retail) by getting a hospital pharmacist job afterwards. I know retail is supposed to suck, but wouldn't it be a better idea to try to find a good middle-ground between high retail pay and work/stress balance by getting a grocery store job? Then you'd be able to enjoy the higher pay that is associated with retail jobs (maybe not quite as high for a grocery store pharmacist), and not nearly as stressful of a work day as CVS/Walgreens pharmacists put up with.

Some people go into various work environments for reasons other than the fact that they pay the highest. I know I would earn more as a retail pharmacist. Would I switch jobs to go into grocery store pharmacy for maybe 5-10k more per year? Never.
 
Some people go into various work environments for reasons other than the fact that they pay the highest. I know I would earn more as a retail pharmacist. Would I switch jobs to go into grocery store pharmacy for maybe 5-10k more per year? Never.

I would not switch from hospital to retail for 100K more a year and that's no exaggeration. I have the greatest respect for those who can handle it (and even actually like it).


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love my retail job! i'm about to get another pharmacist, switching to every 3rd weekend now. bonus!
 
I would not switch from hospital to retail for 100K more a year and that's no exaggeration. I have the greatest respect for those who can handle it (and even actually like it).


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Come on now, working retail for $230 K a year is easy peazy
 
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I would not switch from hospital to retail for 100K more a year and that's no exaggeration. I have the greatest respect for those who can handle it (and even actually like it).
Could also be a corporate lawyer for that salary...both are not worth the emotional drain.
The power of freedom from student loans, I presume? That is, if you truly mean you would decline 100K more to do retail. 100K MORE!
 
I think very few people would turn down a retail job offer for $230k, especially if that only means working 40-45 hours/week with no call. Internal medicine doctors work 55-60 hours/week for $180k-$200k with call. It sure beats doing a 2-yr clinical pharmacy residency for a job paying ~$85k/year.
 
The power of freedom from student loans, I presume? That is, if you truly mean you would decline 100K more to do retail. 100K MORE!

Yeah, I assume these people graduated while ago. And they are either done paying off student loans or graduated with minimal loans. For any new graduate with 150 K+ in debt,it would be dumb to decline retail offer to go after hospital job. And let's not forget that hospital jobs now require 2 yr or 3 yr ( in future years) residency. There is a way to avoid residency ONLY if you know someone in the department who can hook you up.Retail sucks but I would take that any day over being jobless.