New Vet School Coming To Tennessee!!!!!

[jmo1012]

Hey. This is for DSmoody. This topic comes up everywhere. Even in fmylife.com

http://www.fmylife.com/work/17036883

the comments to that make me really sad. wonder if the same things would be said if it was an MD posting and not a vet.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, disgruntled grads and FML.com posts.

Tell me you guys are using real data over on VIN at least?

 

[alliecat44]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, disgruntled grads and FML.com posts.

Tell me you guys are using real data over on VIN at least?

One of the HUGE HUGE HUGE problems with this entire issue is that the AVMA has been completely crappy and horrible about maintaining ANY sort of data. They haven't kept tabs on what salaries are three, five, ten + years out of school. They haven't kept tabs on how long student loans take to be discharged. They haven't kept tabs on the veterinarian unemployment rate. There's virtually NO real data collected--which is one reason why it's thought this whole situation has been allowed to progress to a crisis point. After all, if you're not doing routine monitoring of your patient, you're not aware of slight declines until the patient is seriously/catastrophically ill...

The lack of accretion of any real data sets has plenty of people very angry at the veterinary school administrations and the AVMA. It's yet another thing people are writing about to their AVMA representatives.

FWIW, the AVMA were well aware of Malcolm Getz's book (and I could be remembering incorrectly, but might have even funded it). When it came out for publication and the conclusions were negative--the AVMA were aware of it--and promptly ignored what he had to say. Which, again, makes plenty of vets angry at the AVMA right now.

The entire situation is much more complex than is/can be articulated on SDN. I guess I can understand why you are skeptical, seeing as how you don't really have access to all the information--but I would look very carefully at which posters are saying positive things and which posters are pessimistic and evaluate where they are in the application/education process. Some of us have access to information and discussions that the general public is not privy to due to privacy laws.

 

[dyachei]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, disgruntled grads and FML.com posts.

Tell me you guys are using real data over on VIN at least?

go check out the VIN news service.

Couple of articles from there:
"Tight job market squeezes large-animal veterinarians"

"Tough job market compels dogged hunt by new veterinarians"

"Prolonged economic downturn taking toll on veterinary practices"

None of these are studies because those typically come out YEARS after just because of their nature.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, disgruntled grads and FML.com posts.

Tell me you guys are using real data over on VIN at least?

Like you have anything else to add besides saying you don't want to hear it anymore?


But if you want some more "facts", how bout the article referenced in the article about flyhi:
http://www.vin.com/members/boards/DiscussionViewer.aspx?DocumentId=4950434&MessageId=6183491&SAId=1

links to this article: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=17498

# of visits per vet was down from 1200 in 2001 to 1070 in 2009, and lest you argue that is just the recession, vet visits had already started a small decline before the recession even started, 197mm in 2001 down to 196mm in 2007 even though pet population is increasing.

And finally, the number of vets increased 48% from 97-07 far outpacing pet population growth.

This is why a new school is a bad (i say insane) idea in this environment. And this is why everyone is talking about this issue because people are finally aware of it.

And if you don't like hearing about it, maybe you should get out now, because this issue is going to dominate the profession for years until the supply/demand balance equalizes.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, disgruntled grads and FML.com posts.

Tell me you guys are using real data over on VIN at least?

That's the problem, and that's why a lot of these discussions are going on right now. There are no hard numbers to go by. I think it's customary for vet schools to poll their graduating seniors at some point in time to see what percentage of that year's class already has jobs, etc... but that's where it ends. No followups after that. Vet schools do not contact their alums every year to ask them if they're employed, where they're employed, or how much they're making. Neither does the AVMA. There isn't a single agency that I'm aware of that tracks how many vet school graduates are employed and in what field. When the law school unemployment thing started cropping up, some organization/company started analyzing the number of new grads being pumped out vs. the estimated number of job openings in a year.I don't think that's been done with vet med yet. It would be a good thing to have though, since it doesn't rely on survey results (which can be skewed in many different ways).

It's been a pretty recent phenomenon that a lot of people are coming forth to say that they are experienced vets who cannot find a job (either they were laid off, or just want another job) or they're new grads who cannot find jobs. That's where the discussion started. Now I think it's pretty well established that jobs are hard to come by right now in vet med. Because of that, I think there are a lot of people who are trying to come up with the hard data that you keep asking for. Just because it hasn't been collected doesn't mean the trends don't exist. I have not seen data to the contrary either... and I haven't even heard anecdotal evidence to the contrary... so that's why I am a lot more inclined to believe in the masses of anecdotal evidence pointing to an oversupply of vets leading to a poor job market.

I don't care that I'm not going to be striking it rich with vet med. I knew that all along. All I want is a job that will pay my loans and allow me to live comfortably (above poverty level, in a safe living situation, without worrying about basic utilities being paid). But apparently, the salary required to do that is too much for a lot of clinic owners now. That's scary. And when I've personally met a handful of recent grads who are having a really tough time finding a job... that's even scarier. When I applied to vet school, I was warned over and over that vets don't make much... but there was not much talk at all (never heard it in fact) that I might not be able to find ANY job. All I can do now that I'm already in a buttload of debt is work my tooties off now and hope and pray that I will not be one of those people griping about not having a job in 3 years. That for me means keeping doors open in things like research, which is NOT why I came to vet school for.

Ok... so some of you say that it's not easy to find a job in any sector right now. Yeah, that's true. But it's kind of unacceptable when you need to start paying $2,000/month within 6 months of graduation, and you still cannot find a job. And don't even start saying, "but look at law school grads right now, they're in a similar if not worse boat"... because that's not acceptable either! Just because there's one totally failing profession out there does not mean that all professions should be happy to be at that level. And that's the thing. What I love about vet school is that because there are so few accredited vet schools, each and every one of them is very well respected. Once a bunch more open, and you start admitting second and third tier applicants to programs... then I can bet you it'll end up being like law school, where graduating from a top ten law school is your only real hope of a good job... I'd hate for vet schools to become like that. I really like seeing all vet school graduates as equal colleagues.

 

[Dsmoody23]

go check out the VIN news service.

Couple of articles from there:
"Tight job market squeezes large-animal veterinarians"

"Tough job market compels dogged hunt by new veterinarians"

"Prolonged economic downturn taking toll on veterinary practices"

None of these are studies because those typically come out YEARS after just because of their nature.

Sadly, not visible to the groundlings.

Here's one that is:

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+students/Job-offers-down-at-graduation-but-veterinary-marke/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/676634

I appreciate the back and forth here, and there's no real ill will aside from my aggravation with the topic itself.

I'm glad you guys have access to information that the rest of us don't, but in the absence of any real evidence or data, aside from hearsay, It seems silly to discount the data presented by the BLS and the AVMA.

 

[alliecat44]

I'm glad you guys have access to information that the rest of us don't, but in the absence of any real evidence or data, aside from hearsay, It seems silly to discount the data presented by the BLS and the AVMA.

Just to be clear, the data presented by the BLS EQUALS the data presented by the AVMA. The BLS is going by what the AVMA tells them--THEY ARE USING THE SAME DATA.

And I'm not at all the conspiracy-theorist type, but--wouldn't logic dictate to you that it is in the AVMA's best interest to paint a rosy picture for the profession?

And recruit more students?

Since their revenue comes from dues-paying veterinarians?

Just a thought.

 

[alliecat44]

btw, here is the "groundlings" version of the VIN news service with all their articles:

http://news.vin.com

If members of VIN want to see message board comments, simply log in, find the article and then in the top right corner there should be a link that says "discuss this story" which takes you to the appropriate message board thread.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Like you have anything else to add besides saying you don't want to hear it anymore?


But if you want some more "facts", how bout the article referenced in the article about flyhi:
http://www.vin.com/members/boards/DiscussionViewer.aspx?DocumentId=4950434&MessageId=6183491&SAId=1

links to this article: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=17498

# of visits per vet was down from 1200 in 2001 to 1070 in 2009, and lest you argue that is just the recession, vet visits had already started a small decline before the recession even started, 197mm in 2001 down to 196mm in 2007 even though pet population is increasing.

And finally, the number of vets increased 48% from 97-07 far outpacing pet population growth.

This is why a new school is a bad (i say insane) idea in this environment. And this is why everyone is talking about this issue because people are finally aware of it.

And if you don't like hearing about it, maybe you should get out now, because this issue is going to dominate the profession for years until the supply/demand balance equalizes.

The only article in your post that UG's can actually read minimizes the influx of new grads and places the blame pretty squarely on a failure of the industry to adapt over the last 20 years. The info you cite is found in the intro, but the rest of the article describes the problem, largely, as a result of outdated client education and rising costs for consumers.

So.. that's what I've been trying to add throughout. That the issue you guys are so worked up over has myriad causes, most of which lie outside the subject you're so vehement about.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Just to be clear, the data presented by the BLS EQUALS the data presented by the AVMA. The BLS is going by what the AVMA tells them--THEY ARE USING THE SAME DATA.

And I'm not at all the conspiracy-theorist type, but--wouldn't logic dictate to you that it is in the AVMA's best interest to paint a rosy picture for the profession?

And recruit more students?

Since their revenue comes from dues-paying veterinarians?

Just a thought.

There's a big difference between spin and willful manipulation of data.

It's an advocacy group, of course they spin the information. Reading the BLS/AVMA reports without understanding that is a mistake, but ignoring the basic numbers included in it is a mistake too.

 

[Electrophile]

I left this forum over a year ago and hadn't been back since because of the rudeness of some of the pre-vets who hide behind screen names, troll, and would never in a million years be as disrespectful to fellow pre-vets and especially vet students and vets if they said any of this to their faces if they wanted any hope of getting in. But I saw SDN mentioned on VIN and so I thought what the heck, I'll add in my two cents of woes.

I NEVER in a million years would have thought that I'd be forced to basically work for myself doing house calls right after graduation because I had a pretty good job offer fall through and none to replace it. The only reason I even got the interview that I did was because I knew one of the associates. Well, just found out a few weeks ago that the new clinic I was hired for won't be finished for another year. 😱 My husband who has an MBA also has been laid off not once but twice in this recession. He *finally* got a job at Petsmart on the sales floor last week after not having any job at all for nearly six months! We went into a car dealership today to buy purchase a car for my house call practice after my own personal car finally died. I was downright embarrassed that other than me having a job that pays about $100 a month working at a church in town doing childcare that I've had since I was an undergrad, I have no income right now. I can't see patients for another two months because I don't have my state license as I wasn't planning on getting it as I thought I had the out of state job. My husband just got his very first pay check today. Yipes, that was humbling that we both are so well educated but having zero income when applying for financing. Thank God our credit scores are very respectable and we have emergency funds...it's just awful right now. I feel really bad for the folks in the classes below me. So if anyone wants my honest advice, here goes:

1) FFS, DO NOT GO OUT OF STATE OR ROSS OR ST. GEORGE OR WHEREVER! It's financial suicide. I went in state for undergrad, paid nothing for grad school, and in state for vet school and my student loan payments are going to be about two and a half times our mortgage! Doubling that number to go out of state is STUPID.
2) I want to strangle whoever came up with the phrase "the hardest part is getting in!" No, it's not. Get your emotional, financial, and academic issues together or you likely won't make it.
3) Get job prospects lined up by third year clinics. Don't waste your vacation time and free blocks dinking around on the beach or at least balance your dinking. Set up good contacts. Then again, I did nearly 10 of them and it got me no where, so...

Anyone who doesn't believe me or wants to talk about the situation further is welcome to message me. I'll be glad to talk with you over the phone or whatever.

 

[Bill59]

I understand that post was meant to be facetious, but I still find it pretty interesting that the only sources we have in this thread are editorials, books from the 90's, ...

I don't think you should dismiss Getz's work just because it was from the 90's, especially without reading it. He showed vet med was on an unsustainable path because the supply of veterinarians and cost of education was going to exceed demand. This was based on economic analysis of the data, not opinion.

The fact that this was done 15 years ago makes it even more valuable. First, this was when the economy was good and EVERYONE was talking about how we needed MORE veterinarians. And second, we've now seen that his predictions are in fact coming true. It's not longer hypothetical predictions by some economist. It's reality.

Unfortunately, everyone else dismissed his work as well. So instead of addressing the problem we've done just the opposite -- more schools, more slots, higher tuition and higher debt. As his analysis showed, this is not a temporary problem with the economic cycle, it's a fundamental problem that's been going on for 20 years now. The economy will improve. But until we correct the underlying imbalance, the profession will continue to be at risk.

 

[dyachei]

Sadly, not visible to the groundlings.

Here's one that is:

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...y-marke/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/676634

I appreciate the back and forth here, and there's no real ill will aside from my aggravation with the topic itself.

I'm glad you guys have access to information that the rest of us don't, but in the absence of any real evidence or data, aside from hearsay, It seems silly to discount the data presented by the BLS and the AVMA.

If you want us to take you seriously, stop quoting dvm360.com. Even the article states that there is no current information and it only goes through 2008. I think we can all agree things are wildly different from 2008.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I don't think you should dismiss Getz's work just because it was from the 90's, especially without reading it. He showed vet med was on an unsustainable path because the supply of veterinarians and cost of education was going to exceed demand. This was based on economic analysis of the data, not opinion.

The fact that this was done 15 years ago makes it even more valuable. First, this was when the economy was good and EVERYONE was talking about how we needed MORE veterinarians. And second, we've now seen that his predictions are in fact coming true. It's not longer hypothetical predictions by some economist. It's reality.

Unfortunately, everyone else dismissed his work as well. So instead of addressing the problem we've done just the opposite -- more schools, more slots, higher tuition and higher debt. As his analysis showed, this is not a temporary problem with the economic cycle, it's a fundamental problem that's been going on for 20 years now. The economy will improve. But until we correct the underlying imbalance, the profession will continue to be at risk.

As much as I'd like to read it, Mr. Getz' book is available on Amazon for the low, low price of $132.80.

Although, if you guys have some extra copies lying around you feel like selling, you might have solved the loan payment problem.

 

[dyachei]

I left this forum over a year ago and hadn't been back since because of the rudeness of some of the pre-vets who hide work for myself doing house calls right after graduation because I had a pretty good job offer fall through and none to replace it. The only reason I even got the interview that I did was because I knew one of the associates. Well, just found out a few weeks ago that the new clinic I was hired for won't be finished for another year. 😱 My husband who has an MBA also has been laid off not once but twice in this recession. He *finally* got a job at Petsmart on the sales floor last week after not having any job at all for nearly six months! We went into a car dealership today to buy purchase a car for my house call practice after my own personal car finally died. I was downright embarrassed that other than me having a job that pays about $100 a month working at a church in town doing childcare that I've had since I was an undergrad, I have no income right now. I can't see patients for another two months because I don't have my state license as I wasn't planning on getting it as I thought I had the out of state job. My husband just got his very first pay check today. Yipes, that was humbling that we both are so well educated but having zero income when applying for financing. Thank God our credit scores are very respectable and we have emergency funds...it's just awful right now. I feel really bad for the folks in the classes below me. So if anyone wants my honest advice, here goes:

1) FFS, DO NOT GO OUT OF STATE OR ROSS OR ST. GEORGE OR WHEREVER! It's financial suicide. I went in state for undergrad, paid nothing for grad school, and in state for vet school and my student loan payments are going to be about two and a half times our mortgage! Doubling that number to go out of state is STUPID.
2) I want to strangle whoever came up with the phrase "the hardest part is getting in!" No, it's not. Get your emotional, financial, and academic issues together or you likely won't make it.
3) Get job prospects lined up by third year clinics. Don't waste your vacation time and free blocks dinking around on the beach or at least balance your dinking. Set up good contacts. Then again, I did nearly 10 of them and it got me no where, so...

Anyone who doesn't believe me or wants to talk about the situation further is welcome to message me. I'll be glad to talk with you over the phone or whatever.

👍

If you ever need to talk, I am available by PM

 

[breenie]

As much as I'd like to read it, Mr. Getz' book is available on Amazon for the low, low price of $132.80.

Although, if you guys have some extra copies lying around you feel like selling, you might have solved the loan payment problem.

Come on, man. I was with you on some of your points, but let's keep it classy in here.

 

[Dsmoody23]

If you want us to take you seriously, stop quoting dvm360.com. Even the article states that there is no current information and it only goes through 2008. I think we can all agree things are wildly different from 2008.

If you want me to take you seriously, please read the articles you make snarky comments about.

"Across the country, Dr. Thomas Vickroy, interim associate dean for students and instruction in the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Florida (UF), believes the job market is stronger this year.

With 89 DVM graduates in the class of 2010, Vickroy says 88 of them had jobs lined up prior to graduation.

"At the time of graduation, only one had not yet committed to a position, lthough I believe that individual had several offers under consideration," he adds."

 

[Dsmoody23]

Come on, man. I was with you on some of your points, but let's keep it classy in here.

Just cracking a joke...

It's an expensive book. I can't afford it.

There was no malice implied.

Although I do think it's ironic that a book about the exaggerated cost of education has an exaggerated cost.

 

[dyachei]

If you want me to take you seriously, please read the articles you make snarky comments about.

"Across the country, Dr. Thomas Vickroy, interim associate dean for students and instruction in the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Florida (UF), believes the job market is stronger this year.

With 89 DVM graduates in the class of 2010, Vickroy says 88 of them had jobs lined up prior to graduation.

"At the time of graduation, only one had not yet committed to a position, lthough I believe that individual had several offers under consideration," he adds."

So you're extrapolating from 1 vet school for the entire market? How many were jobs and how many were internships/residencies? What percentage of them started their jobs? What percentage of them were full time vs. part time? How many of these jobs are actually paying these students enough to support themselves (I'm talking college level support here, nothing fancy)?

There were vet clinics hiring in TN - but some were offering $40,000 a year for 50-70 hr work weeks. It's doable, but it will also cause burn-out. Do you think we should take jobs like that? Because the supply of veterinarians is pretty high right now. And that drives salaries down. I doubt out of state students would be able to pay off loans on that and eat. In state students would most likely suffer as they tried to pay rent, pay off loans, and eat.

 

[Dsmoody23]

So you're extrapolating from 1 vet school for the entire market? How many were jobs and how many were internships/residencies? What percentage of them started their jobs? What percentage of them were full time vs. part time? How many of these jobs are actually paying these students enough to support themselves (I'm talking college level support here, nothing fancy)?

There were vet clinics hiring in TN - but some were offering $40,000 a year for 50-70 hr work weeks. It's doable, but it will also cause burn-out. Do you think we should take jobs like that? Because the supply of veterinarians is pretty high right now. And that drives salaries down. I doubt out of state students would be able to pay off loans on that and eat. In state students would most likely suffer as they tried to pay rent, pay off loans, and eat.

Nope, just pointing out that there was post 2008 data in the piece.

And... 50-70 hrs a week sucks, but I think we're forgetting that these are essentially entry level jobs. They're post-grad educated, but it's still the first time these people have ever done the job in question. And the economy does still suck too. Plenty of people are working harder for less these days, myself included. In many cases, you have a 26-28 year old person who has been a professional student for their entire adult life. No meaningful work experience beyond part time jobs in clinics or waiting tables in undergrad. The assumption that these folks should just fall into a dream job isn't realistic. You start low, and you work high, just like anything else.

Couple that with the industry failings mentioned in the other post, and you have a perfect storm of crappy circumstances. I'm not suggesting that my outlook and opinion guarantee a cushy life and freedom from financial distress. I'm fully expecting the next 10-15 years of my life to be very lean ones. But laying it all at the feet of too many new grads doesn't address the whole issue.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Couple that with the industry failings mentioned in the other post, and you have a perfect storm of crappy circumstances. I'm not suggesting that my outlook and opinion guarantee a cushy life and freedom from financial distress. I'm fully expecting the next 10-15 years of my life to be very lean ones. But laying it all at the feet of too many new grads doesn't address the whole issue.

You are the only one who is saying it is the whole issue. It is a problem, it is contributing to the problem, and we are talking.

But, You are such a hypocrite it is incredible.

*Someone else makes a joke, you jump on that as not being good evidence. But you can make jokes.
*You can extrapolate from data but no one else can .
* You say people have no numbers, but you ignore the ones provided, and you don't have any better .
* You tell people to read the sources but you won't (ever heard of a library).
* You act as if you are the only person who knows anything about jobs and business, and you better believe you don't.

Your act is getting really old.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Your act is getting really old.

So is 'Angry School Marm.'

Put on your internet rage blinders for a minute and read back through the thread.

 

[Bill59]

As much as I'd like to read it, Mr. Getz' book is available on Amazon for the low, low price of $132.80.

Although, if you guys have some extra copies lying around you feel like selling, you might have solved the loan payment problem.

If only there was some place you could go and read books without buying them ... maybe even borrow them for some time and then return them when you're finished ...

Seriously though, most vet school libraries have a copy and other college libraries could probably get a copy through interlibrary loan for you.

 

[Dsmoody23]

If only there was some place you could go and read books without buying them ... maybe even borrow them for some time and then return them when you're finished ...

Seriously though, most vet school libraries have a copy and other college libraries could probably get a copy through interlibrary loan for you.

No jokes in this thread. This is Serious Business.

I'm very interested in reading it, actually. Real data is good, even if it's old.

I was also thinking that it might be a good idea to harness some of the advocacy mentioned earlier to push for some current data collection. If you're going to lobby schools and the AVMA for reduced class sizes and an enrollment freeze, it might benefit you guys to have some of the information that's lacking here.

 

[Electrophile]

Your act is getting really old.

I guarantee if he used his actual name on here, he would never troll like this. This is why I stopped coming to SDN in the first place. Some pre-vets especially hide behind a user name and would never in a million years say some of the things they do to other pre-vets, vet students, and vets. You never know who might be reading though...if you wouldn't say it in front of an admissions committee, you shouldn't say it at all.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I guarantee if he used his actual name on here, he would never troll like this. This is why I stopped coming to SDN in the first place. Some pre-vets especially hide behind a user name and would never in a million years say some of the things they do to other pre-vets, vet students, and vets. You never know who might be reading though...if you wouldn't say it in front of an admissions committee, you shouldn't say it at all.

Daniel S. Moody
Allentown, PA
[email protected]

Feel free to send me any questions or comments you might have.

Also, labeling an opinion you disagree with as 'trolling' is, at least, a disservice to trolls. Thicken up that skin, killer.

 

[dyachei]

Plenty of people are working harder for less these days, myself included. In many cases, you have a 26-28 year old person who has been a professional student for their entire adult life. No meaningful work experience beyond part time jobs in clinics or waiting tables in undergrad. The assumption that these folks should just fall into a dream job isn't realistic. You start low, and you work high, just like anything else.

First off, no one is saying it is the whole issue. Secondly, this whole paragraph gets to me. I don't make assumptions about you and your work experience, I would appreciate if you wouldn't make assumptions about mine. I had been a professional student until I graduated vet school. My work experience included full time summers, part time other parts of the year. In school, I worked 3 jobs at time, including laboratory work, library work, and newspaper work in order to pay for the things I needed. Just trying to be clear that just because you are a non-grad doesn't mean that there aren't students who are working just as hard and have an understanding of the economy, the job situation, and the veterinary situation specifically. I find it condescending that you don't think professional students could understand this. I understand that you have to work hard and that there isn't a "dream job" waiting for me. But I also think that the expectation that clinics that hire a veterinarian should at least be able to meet cost of living (which includes loan expenses) isn't out there.

 

[Electrophile]

So if someone were to forward this whole public thread on to whatever school you wanted to apply to, you'd be totally okay with that? Better to have thin skin than a thick head...

 

[Dsmoody23]

First off, no one is saying it is the whole issue. Secondly, this whole paragraph gets to me. I don't make assumptions about you and your work experience, I would appreciate if you wouldn't make assumptions about mine. I had been a professional student until I graduated vet school. My work experience included full time summers, part time other parts of the year. In school, I worked 3 jobs at time, including laboratory work, library work, and newspaper work in order to pay for the things I needed. Just trying to be clear that just because you are a non-grad doesn't mean that there aren't students who are working just as hard and have an understanding of the economy, the job situation, and the veterinary situation specifically. I find it condescending that you don't think professional students could understand this. I understand that you have to work hard and that there isn't a "dream job" waiting for me. But I also think that the expectation that clinics that hire a veterinarian should at least be able to meet cost of living (which includes loan expenses) isn't out there.

I totally agree that there are exceptions to that. Hence the phrase 'in many cases.' And there's no reason to interpret that as a shot at you, or even a shot at those students. I'd jump at the chance to go back and take that route. But there's a pretty good sized section of people, especially represented on here, that go straight from high school to undergrad to vet school. And without that time spent in the workforce, I think it's definitely harder for those people to wrap their minds around the 'work your way up' mentality. Most jobs, you start at a subsistence wage, with minimal benefits, and you build up from there as your value to the employer increases. This is in no way in favor of employers paying less than a living wage, but there are supposed to be thin times when you start out at the low end of a new job, DVM or otherwise.

 

[dyachei]

Most jobs, you start at a subsistence wage, with minimal benefits, and you build up from there as your value to the employer increases. This is in no way in favor of employers paying less than a living wage, but there are supposed to be thin times when you start out at the low end of a new job, DVM or otherwise.

But what I am saying is that a lot of these new jobs aren't just thin times - they are times when you have to put your loans into forbearance because you can't pay for them. Or if you do pay for them, you end up in a lot more financial trouble (credit card debt, etc). So simply telling us that you don't want to hear it anymore is immature. We are telling you a hard truth (and I think we've been pretty good in keeping it to threads where it makes sense) and you guys are saying "don't rain on my parade" and "you don't go into vet med for the money". I certainly didn't go into vet med for the money, but in order to survive, I need to have at least a little.

 

[Alhazred]

So if someone were to forward this whole public thread on to whatever school you wanted to apply to, you'd be totally okay with that? Better to have thin skin than a thick head...

WHOOSH

That is the sound goalposts make as they move away.

 

[Dsmoody23]

So if someone were to forward this whole public thread on to whatever school you wanted to apply to, you'd be totally okay with that? Better to have thin skin than a thick head...

The only thread on here I would be wary of letting an admissions committee see was the one where I posted about 15 lolcats in a row. I'm only 90% proud of that.

But, seriously, why would I be ashamed of talking on the internet about issues that interest me? It gets heated here, sometimes, but it's still generally constructive and I learn plenty.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience here, whenever that was, but don't assume that everyone with a contrary opinion is a slinking troll, hiding in a basement.

 

[flyhi]

So if someone were to forward this whole public thread on to whatever school you wanted to apply to, you'd be totally okay with that? Better to have thin skin than a thick head...

 

[Cautionary Tail]

1) FFS, DO NOT GO OUT OF STATE OR ROSS OR ST. GEORGE OR WHEREVER! It's financial suicide. I went in state for undergrad, paid nothing for grad school, and in state for vet school and my student loan payments are going to be about two and a half times our mortgage! Doubling that number to go out of state is STUPID.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have in-state options.

It's easy to knock those forced to choose between out-of-state tuition and abandoning their aspirations when you've never been stuck in their shoes. If I had an in-state school or my state contracted with anyone, I'd have applied there (and there alone) in a heartbeat. But I don't. And they don't.

I understand that there are major, life-altering implications to taking on this degree of student loan debt. Maybe I'll live to regret my decision. Maybe I won't. But I can say with absolute certainty that I would have spent a lifetime regretting it had I allowed this opportunity to pass.

Comments like this don't further discussion, and this is my biggest issue with the topic whenever it comes up. It's not so much the fact that it's being discussed, but how. I suspect there would be a lot less push back and a lot more listening going on if we could can the inflammatory statements, lose the implications that anyone with the slightest difference of opinion is some clueless ignorant kid who just doesn't get it, and show some basic respect on all sides.

 

[Dsmoody23]

But what I am saying is that a lot of these new jobs aren't just thin times - they are times when you have to put your loans into forbearance because you can't pay for them. Or if you do pay for them, you end up in a lot more financial trouble (credit card debt, etc). So simply telling us that you don't want to hear it anymore is immature. We are telling you a hard truth (and I think we've been pretty good in keeping it to threads where it makes sense) and you guys are saying "don't rain on my parade" and "you don't go into vet med for the money". I certainly didn't go into vet med for the money, but in order to survive, I need to have at least a little.

We are in complete agreement here. The pay has to equal the loan payments to be feasible. (Although, that does lead to the question of how much debt the employer is expected to soak up. If you choose OOS or private school over a more affordable in-state option, how much of that debt should the employer reasonably be expected to allow for?)

And it's not that I don't want to hear it any more. I'd just rather hear the issue evolve from panic to something constructive. As Alliecat mentioned earlier, some of you guys are taking steps to make that happen, and that's laudable. But the UG opinion, and partially the vet student opinion, seems to be stuck at the panic starting line, indefinitely.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

And it's not that I don't want to hear it any more. I'd just rather hear the issue evolve from panic to something constructive. As Alliecat mentioned earlier, some of you guys are taking steps to make that happen, and that's laudable. But the UG opinion, and partially the vet student opinion, seems to be stuck at the panic starting line, indefinitely.

👍

 

[Electrophile]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have in-state options.

It's easy to knock those forced to choose between out-of-state tuition and abandoning their aspirations when you've never been stuck in their shoes. If I had an in-state school or my state contracted with anyone, I'd have applied there (and there alone) in a heartbeat. But I don't. And they don't.

I understand that there are major, life-altering implications to taking on this degree of student loan debt. Maybe I'll live to regret my decision. Maybe I won't. But I can say with absolute certainty that I would have spent a lifetime regretting it had I allowed this opportunity to pass.

Comments like this don't further discussion, and this is my biggest issue with the topic whenever it comes up. It's not so much the fact that it's being discussed, but how. I suspect there would be a lot less push back and a lot more listening going on if we could can the inflammatory statements, lose the implications that anyone with the slightest difference of opinion is some clueless ignorant kid who just doesn't get it, and show some basic respect on all sides.

Yes, you do have options. There is no law preventing you from picking your number one public school that you are most likely to get into and moving/working/taking classes/etc there for a year (or whatever the state requires you to) to get in state tuition. You're going to be moving there anyways for school, might as well get there a year earlier to save you an extra 100 K + interest. Paying over 200 K for vet school is financial suicide unless you have a trust fund, significant other, etc. It's bad enough with the price of in state, which is what I paid.

And while it's fun to say "I'm okay with eating ramen and living in a cardboard box" because you will be, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, practicing veterinary medicine, the reality is that it effing sucks (as I just finished up eating ramen for lunch, joy...). You may not agree or like what I have to say, but it is reality.

 

[Bill59]

No jokes in this thread. This is Serious Business.

It's OK, that was just between me and you.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

It's easy to knock those forced to choose between out-of-state tuition and abandoning their aspirations when you've never been stuck in their shoes.......I understand that there are major, life-altering implications to taking on this degree of student loan debt. Maybe I'll live to regret my decision. Maybe I won't. But I can say with absolute certainty that I would have spent a lifetime regretting it had I allowed this opportunity to pass.

Everyone has been in the position of having to give up dreams and aspirations when faced with the consequences of reality. They may not have been the same aspirations as yours, but don't think that people don't know what it feels like to have to choose between reality and dreams. I think just that while you think you would spend a lifetime regretting not going to vet school, Electrophile would also regret if she didn't share her experience and it's consequences with those here. Don't jump on her just because she's saying something you'd don't want to hear - doesn't mean she shouldn't say it, or that others might not want to hear it.

 

[Electrophile]

The only thread on here I would be wary of letting an admissions committee see was the one where I posted about 15 lolcats in a row. I'm only 90% proud of that.

But, seriously, why would I be ashamed of talking on the internet about issues that interest me? It gets heated here, sometimes, but it's still generally constructive and I learn plenty.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience here, whenever that was, but don't assume that everyone with a contrary opinion is a slinking troll, hiding in a basement.

Daniel S. Moody of Allentown, Pennsylvania, you don't act like you are learning anything. You act like you know it all already. An attitude to lose before you make it to vet school.

Numerous classmates of mine and myself who don't have jobs nearly two months after graduation is good enough proof right now that the job market sucks. I sent out dozens of resumes for actual jobs posted in ten states, from private practice to public health at the CDC, not even cold calls/e-mails and most didn't even give me the courtesy of a "thanks but no thanks" note back. I had other vets review my resume and I'm not a bottom of the barrel feeder (not that there are many of those that graduate from vet school). This is why I'm saying screw it and starting my own practice. CalliopeDVM is exactly right. I feel like many pre-vets go in with blinders to reality and if you're serious about this whole ordeal, you'll give it serious thought before jumping off into the deep end. It sounds like panic talk to pre-vets because you guys aren't focused on anything besides getting in so you really cannot see the murky waters 4-5 years down the road, it's just human nature. So it might behoove you to pay attention to what recent grads are saying.

Regards,

Maren Bell Jones DVM, MA
Columbia, Missouri

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And while it's fun to say "I'm okay with eating ramen and living in a cardboard box" because you will be, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, practicing veterinary medicine, the reality is that it effing sucks (as I just finished up eating ramen for lunch, joy...). You may not agree or like what I have to say, but it is reality.

Aside: Good to see you Electrophile. It's been quite a while 🙂

I think (and not to pull out the I'm-so-much-more-experienced-so-you-younguns-listen-up card, but I *have* had more contacts with hundreds of recent grads, both in my own class and above and below) this is one of the biggest problems as well. Students simply do NOT realize how the debt will affect them. You (and I use the generic "you") simply cannot comprehend the amount of money until you start having to pay it back.

It is all well and brave to talk about how you know you didn't get into this profession to be rich, or how you know you will do everything you can for your dream, or how you know times will be tough but you will move up....but a lot of posts (not specifically on this thread, but over the 5+ years I have been her) view all of it with the aforementioned rose-colored glasses. We semi-recent graduates are not turning down poorly-paying jobs because we expect to fall into a dream job. We are looking for ANY job. ANY. You talk about knowing how times will be thin, but you just need to keep working - but as dyachei said, there is a difference between "thin times" and having to go into forbearance, credit card debt, being unable to pay rent and bills, etc. And yes, that IS happening with increasingly frequency. We aren't being pouty that we don't get great jobs, or that we expect to immediately get paid well. Hell, we'll take anything. And most of us end up having to do that, IF we find anything in the first place.

Yes, not everyone has an "option" of an in-state school. But it makes more financial sense in the long run to put it off, even years, move, take classes, keep applying - try your damndest to get in-state. And if after years you can't, then yes, going OOS may be your only option....you had better start planning out financials from day 1 and not just ignore the 200+ that will be coming.

Numerous classmates of mine and myself who don't have jobs nearly two months after graduation is good enough proof right now that the job market sucks.

Some of mine didn't for up to 6 months.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Most jobs, you start at a subsistence wage, with minimal benefits, and you build up from there as your value to the employer increases.

You don't start "most jobs" with 150-250K of debt that you have to pay back to the tune of 1-2 grand a month with a 6.8% interest rate. That's the difference, and why "subsistence wage" is quite different for a veterinary graduate versus other professions.

 

[Dsmoody23]

You don't start "most jobs" with 150-250K of debt that you have to pay back to the tune of 1-2 grand a month with a 6.8% interest rate. That's the difference, and why "subsistence wage" is quite different for a veterinary graduate versus other professions.

You don't start most jobs at 50-70k either.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Daniel S. Moody of Allentown, Pennsylvania, you don't act like you are learning anything. You act like you know it all already. An attitude to lose before you make it to vet school.

Numerous classmates of mine and myself who don't have jobs nearly two months after graduation is good enough proof right now that the job market sucks. I sent out dozens of resumes for actual jobs posted in ten states, from private practice to public health at the CDC, not even cold calls/e-mails and most didn't even give me the courtesy of a "thanks but no thanks" note back. I had other vets review my resume and I'm not a bottom of the barrel feeder (not that there are many of those that graduate from vet school). This is why I'm saying screw it and starting my own practice. CalliopeDVM is exactly right. I feel like many pre-vets go in with blinders to reality and if you're serious about this whole ordeal, you'll give it serious thought before jumping off into the deep end. It sounds like panic talk to pre-vets because you guys aren't focused on anything besides getting in so you really cannot see the murky waters 4-5 years down the road, it's just human nature. So it might behoove you to pay attention to what recent grads are saying.

Regards,

Maren Bell Jones DVM, MA
Columbia, Missouri

From another poster, earlier:

"Comments like this don't further discussion, and this is my biggest issue with the topic whenever it comes up. It's not so much the fact that it's being discussed, but how. I suspect there would be a lot less push back and a lot more listening going on if we could can the inflammatory statements, lose the implications that anyone with the slightest difference of opinion is some clueless ignorant kid who just doesn't get it, and show some basic respect on all sides."

I'm tired of saying it, and it's better stated than I would.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

You don't start most jobs at 50-70k either.

And you don't need to struggle through four years of veterinary school for most jobs either. (and as an aside, many jobs in the hard sciences sector start at about that, if not more, with a master's or even just a bachelor's degree, eg engineering)

Look, this is what I'm saying. 50-70K IS subsistence wage for someone with our amount of debt. The question is a) FINDING jobs to begin with, and b) trying to make such a salary work for us when some of us have up to 250K of debt. If you think living on 50K with 200K in loan payments is "yeah, a little thin, but totally workable, you can live well"....not quite. Especially when you throw location into the mix.

I am currently taking home about what an average graduate with 150+ debt (paying it back) and a 50k salary would make. If anything big happens to me, I literally can't afford it. I had to recently replace the clutch on my car (about a grand) and almost couldn't pay rent (on a tiny student apartment). If I had any sort of medical issue/emergency/large expense, I would be effed. That's not "thin". That is scraping by.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

Everyone has been in the position of having to give up dreams and aspirations when faced with the consequences of reality. They may not have been the same aspirations as yours, but don't think that people don't know what it feels like to have to choose between reality and dreams. I think just that while you think you would spend a lifetime regretting not going to vet school, Electrophile would also regret if she didn't share her experience and it's consequences with those here. Don't jump on her just because she's saying something you'd don't want to hear - doesn't mean she shouldn't say it, or that others might not want to hear it.

I'm not jumping on anyone.

I'm well aware that everyone has made the decision to choose between dreams and reality at various points in their lives. I still say it's easy for someone with an in-state program they were able to get into to criticize and insult those who have (whatever their reasons) chosen other options. And I still question whether or not those tactics are an effective or professional means of addressing the matter.

I have no problem with Electrophile's decision to share her opinion here. What I objected to was the less-than-cordial manner in which she chose to do so.

 

[Dsmoody23]

And you don't need to struggle through four years of veterinary school for most jobs either. (and as an aside, many jobs in the hard sciences sector start at about that, if not more, with a master's or even just a bachelor's degree, eg engineering)

Look, this is what I'm saying. 50-70K IS subsistence wage for someone with our amount of debt. The question is a) FINDING jobs to begin with, and b) trying to make such a salary work for us when some of us have up to 250K of debt. If you think living on 50K with 200K in loan payments is "yeah, a little thin, but totally workable, you can live well"....not quite. Especially when you throw location into the mix.

I am currently taking home about what an average graduate with 150+ debt (paying it back) and a 50k salary would make. If anything big happens to me, I literally can't afford it. I had to recently replace the clutch on my car (about a grand) and almost couldn't pay rent (on a tiny student apartment). If I had any sort of medical issue/emergency/large expense, I would be effed. That's almost beyond subsistence.

We're just circling the drain here. It's not an ideal situation, as we all agree. In some cases it's unsustainable.

But plenty of people make it work. And given that it's not a situation that's likely to change in the next few years, I think our efforts would be better spent trying to figure out how to be on the winning side of the equation, instead of wallowing in the downside.

 

[NStarz]

As a pre-vetter (applying this cycle), I really appreciate the back and forth. However, I would also like to point out where I'm (and possibly others) are coming from. If I get in this cycle, I will be graduating in 2016. No one knows what the economic climate and the veterinary profession will be like in 5 years. There could be a boom again and jobs are hard to come by with all of the baby boomers retiring. No one knows. No one can predict, with absolute certainty, that the economy that exists when I start vet school is going to be equal to the economy when I finish vet school. Add to the fact that I desire to specialize, and I'm not going to be trying to find a job for at least 7 years. It's very hard to me to take the economic climate today as a sign of the profession in almost ten years. So I can sit around and wait for it to pick up (but then the economy will still be different when I get out and look for a job) or I can pursue vet med now and hope that there is some kind of growth in the profession by the time I start looking for a job in 2019(ish). And no one can tell me with absolute certainty that vets will still be living out of cardboard boxes in 7 years, so I'm going to bank my chances.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As a pre-vetter (applying this cycle), I really appreciate the back and forth. However, I would also like to point out where I'm (and possibly others) are coming from. If I get in this cycle, I will be graduating in 2016. No one knows what the economic climate and the veterinary profession will be like in 5 years. There could be a boom again and jobs are hard to come by with all of the baby boomers retiring. No one knows. No one can predict, with absolute certainty, that the economy that exists when I start vet school is going to be equal to the economy when I finish vet school. Add to the fact that I desire to specialize, and I'm not going to be trying to find a job for at least 7 years. It's very hard to me to take the economic climate today as a sign of the profession in almost ten years. So I can sit around and wait for it to pick up (but then the economy will still be different when I get out and look for a job) or I can pursue vet med now and hope that there is some kind of growth in the profession by the time I start looking for a job in 2019(ish). And no one can tell me with absolute certainty that vets will still be living out of cardboard boxes in 7 years, so I'm going to bank my chances.

I don't think anyone here is telling you DON'T DO IT or LEAVE VET MED or moaning about hellfire and brimstone. We're just talking about what it's like right *now*.