New York Programs?

[Bradybeluga]

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Anyone know anything about the New York path residencies? I'm from California and have heard the low down on a lot of the programs out here, but am clueless about the New York ones. Thanks.

 

[yaah]

As I posted in the "harvard programs" thread, the search function can be your friend.

There are two schools of thought on the NYC programs

1) NYC is the greatest city on earth, and the path programs are awesome particularly Mt Sinai which has the biggest volume of any place and is therefore prestigious, and Cornell which has an affiliation with MSKCC which therefore makes it prestigious

2) NYC programs suffer in relative terms in regards to the programs to the east and to the south (Boston, Hopkins, Philly, etc). The glory days of AP Stout et al are long gone and the NYC programs are not as committed to education as in the past.

I belong to the latter group, but then again I don't really like NYC and wouldn't live there unless I made $10 million a year.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Why do the NYC programs suffer compared to Boston, Philly, and Hopkins? What factors make you conclude this?

 

[yaah]

Why do the NYC programs suffer compared to Boston, Philly, and Hopkins? What factors make you conclude this?

Because on my interviews and in my med school a lot of people told me this. Of course, I didn't interview in NY. 😉

 

[beary]

I belong to the latter group, but then again I don't really like NYC and wouldn't live there unless I made $10 million a year.

My impression is that you practically need $10 million a year to get a decent place to live in NYC.

I have never thought of myself as particularly materialistic, but I find cost of living to be one of the biggest factors for me as I consider interviews.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

My impression is that you practically need $10 million a year to get a decent place to live in NYC.

I have never thought of myself as particularly materialistic, but I find cost of living to be one of the biggest factors for me as I consider interviews.

Yeah, you're not gonna be pleased with the Bay Area, Boston, or NYC.

 

[yaah]

Yeah it's kind of amazing when you figure out that "well, I could spend that $200 a month on parking or I could go on a vacation instead" or something to that effect. My place here would cost about $500k in Boston area, at least. And it would be 80 years old, creaky, and have poor insulation and cost more to heat. And there would be on the street parking. I mean for some people it's a reasonable tradeoff to want to be in a city. For me, no. I'm happy.

 

[CameronFrye]

Because on my interviews and in my med school a lot of people told me this. Of course, I didn't interview in NY. 😉

I have heard the same.

 

[CameronFrye]

Yeah it's kind of amazing when you figure out that "well, I could spend that $200 a month on parking or I could go on a vacation instead" or something to that effect. My place here would cost about $500k in Boston area, at least. And it would be 80 years old, creaky, and have poor insulation and cost more to heat. And there would be on the street parking. I mean for some people it's a reasonable tradeoff to want to be in a city. For me, no. I'm happy.

Yeah, that's one reason places like Ann Arbor and Charlottesville really appeal to me (not that some of these university towns are particularly cheap, but they are much better than Cali or Boston). That being said, I will still be checking out the big city programs b/c if I really like one of those programs, I figure I can deal with city living for a few years.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Every year (or perhaps every few months), several people ask about New York programs. NYC is a great city to some people which explains why people want to do residency there. We shouldn't give them ****.

Instead, I nominate yaah to make a sticky linking the various countless numerous threads devoted to NYC programs.

I don't know about Mt. Sinai or NYU but I definitely KNOW that there are Cornell and Columbia residents hanging out here. That will give them a centralized outlet to describe the pros of their programs.

yaah, I heard the same thing too...but hearsay is hearsay. And everytime I talk about what I heard from other people, there's always someone who comes out in opposition.

 

[Bradybeluga]

Hey,
Thanks for the info. I used the "advanced search" function and got some info on NY programs. I hear ya about the cost of living. I'm living in the Ca Bay Area right now, and it sucks not to be able to afford to buy a shoe box.

 

[ChipLeader]

Anyone know what the deal is with Cornell housing? I hear they have awesome subsidized housing but don't know much more than that. Is it guaranteed for the duration of your residency? How much does it run?

I applied to Columbia and Cornell - I think they are both very good programs but lately I'm not sure I wanna live in NYC so I may not even go to the interview if invited. But, if Cornell hooks you up with sweet housing, I may have to reconsider... 😳

 

[beary]

I applied to Columbia and Cornell - I think they are both very good programs but lately I'm not sure I wanna live in NYC so I may not even go to the interview if invited. But, if Cornell hooks you up with sweet housing, I may have to reconsider... 😳

ChipLeader - I am in exactly the same situation as you.

 

[miko2005]

Anyone know anything about the New York path residencies? I'm from California and have heard the low down on a lot of the programs out here, but am clueless about the New York ones. Thanks.

I would be interested on the low down on California schools!! 🙂

 

[aviva]

Cornell and Columbia both offer amazing housing. The apartments are huge (and not just by NY standards) and the views are priceless. The Columbia couples housing are about 1000 sq ft and the rent is about $1500 which is very reasonable for NY. Cornell's apartments are known to be slightly cheaper and the area is much better.

 

[DoubleHappiness]

Cornell and Columbia both offer amazing housing. The apartments are huge (and not just by NY standards) and the views are priceless. The Columbia couples housing are about 1000 sq ft and the rent is about $1500 which is very reasonable for NY. Cornell's apartments are known to be slightly cheaper and the area is much better.

Columbia's housing may be cheap, but you really couldn't be in a worse neighborhood (north of Harlem). Cornell's housing is very new and nice and on the UES near the East River. Mt. Sinai's housing is also UES and about an extra $50-100 a month than the other programs, but you get a phat apartment on Park Ave., Madison Ave., or 5th Ave. NYU even has better housing than Columbia's. And....the 1st prize goes to St. Luke's!!! Their housing is amazing!!!

 

[EvilNewbie]

Well, I interviewed at some New York programs and I didn't think they were that spectacular. Mount Sinai has way, way, way too much volume and the residents there were averaging 130's in autopsies. I don't like autopsy THAT much, actually I don't like it at all. Did you guys see the pathology department? That place is the ugliest place I have ever seen, the halls were cramped with bins and crap and there stuff was so old, I thought it was a museum or something. I didn't interview at Columbia or Cornell but I heard the housing is crap and its on a month-to-month basis (means no guarantee)and there have been instances (that I was told of) where a resident was kicked out for an incoming resident without much warning. I interviewed at St. Luke's but I don't remember much about it (I did remember that they took me to 3 different hospitals for interviews though). I declined the NYU and SUNY-Brooklyn interview. I decide not to rank any NY programs cause its way too expensive to live there.

 

[Brian Pavlovitz]

Well, I interviewed at some New York programs and I didn't think they were that spectacular. Mount Sinai has way, way, way too much volume and the residents there were averaging 130's in autopsies. I don't like autopsy THAT much, actually I don't like it at all. Did you guys see the pathology department? That place is the ugliest place I have ever seen, the halls were cramped with bins and crap and there stuff was so old, I thought it was a museum or something. I didn't interview at Columbia or Cornell but I heard the housing is crap and its on a month-to-month basis (means no guarantee)and there have been instances (that I was told of) where a resident was kicked out for an incoming resident without much warning. I interviewed at St. Luke's but I don't remember much about it (I did remember that they took me to 3 different hospitals for interviews though). I declined the NYU and SUNY-Brooklyn interview. I decide not to rank any NY programs cause its way too expensive to live there.

I'm doing a dermpath elective at Mt. Sinai right now, and that's pretty accurate. TONS of specimens, a rather "old" feel to the laboratory, and cramped hallways. Nice staff so far, though. From what residents have told me, it's definitely a "service" oriented program. Very low salary for NYC ($44k for PGY-1 I believe), and no book allowance!! Great group of residents from what I've seen.

I'm interviewing there in a couple of weeks, so I'll post my impressions then.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I didn't interview at Columbia or Cornell but I heard the housing is crap and its on a month-to-month basis (means no guarantee)and there have been instances (that I was told of) where a resident was kicked out for an incoming resident without much warning.

I interviewed at Cornell and I didn't get the impression that housing was only guaranteed on a month-to-month basis. Housing in Manhattan is very expensive and Cornell does subsidize a good chunk of it. However, the difference that you end up paying, I thought, was still too much than what I was accustomed to. The housing is quite convenient in that you can literally walk just a few blocks to get to the hospital. If you're lucky, you can live right across the street from the hospital I think. But again, when you interview, you may not hear the horror stories...anywhere you go, you will tend to hear mostly the positives and people will shy away from telling you any horror stories.

 

[aviva]

Actually, the housing is not month to month at Cornell and Columbia. They sign yearlong leases at both places, and the housing is great. They have huge apts with lots of closet space, eat-in-kitchens (which you don't find in NY), laundry facilities on almost every floor...

 

[hzma]

anyone know anything about Buffallo- SUNY Path dept? Just got an interview there, but i don't know if i should go. Its sooooo far away from where I am, and so cold. 🙂

 

[pathfinder]

Anybody knows about the Albert Einstein program in Bronx? You can hardly find anything on the internet. Their information in FREIDA is useless. I'd appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this program.

 

[sohsie]

Einstein is a very good program. They get plenty of volume, good variety, and diversity of approaches from attendings. Nothing equals spending time with Dr. Koss, one of the founding fathers of cytopathology. He gives a conference once a week and also does the autopsy conference. Watching him grill the rads resident is always fun. Periodically, Dr. Mahadevia gives an excellent conference on gross pathology. You have to be a little self motivated to maximize the experience. It is easy to slip into autopilot if you don't watch yourself. However, if you show yourself to be a strong, self-motivated resident, you can shape your experience to meet your needs. Dr. Steinberg, the program director, is a barrel of energy and information and is the most approachable and caring program director I ever met. He is (or was) the head of some nationwide program directors committee. I cant comment at all about CP there. They have good, cheap housing either next to the main hospital in a bad neighborhood or a little more expensive but in a good neighborhood (Riverdale). You get 3 meals a day paid, including Sat and Sun, by meal card. $500 book fund. Probably most annoying aspect is the two hospitals and trying to bounce back and forth between them, which you will find yourself doing. The shuttles run every so often and stop running by 5-6 PM. The parking lots fill up quickly so driving between them can be frustrating as well.

How do I know all this? As you can probably guess, I was a resident there, but transferred to another program after PGY1 entirely for my own personal reasons and not in any way related to the program.

Anybody knows about the Albert Einstein program in Bronx? You can hardly find anything on the internet. Their information in FREIDA is useless. I'd appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this program.

 

[yaah]

Is Dr Pullman there? He was at UMass when I was a med student there - great teacher and a great guy, expert at many different things.

 

[Moochie]

Would love to find a well respected NYC program with reasonable hours-- community or university affiliated, doesn't matter. Anyone know of one?

 

[sohsie]

Is Dr Pullman there? He was at UMass when I was a med student there - great teacher and a great guy, expert at many different things.

Yes, he is the AP director (at least he was when I was there)

 

[desmangt]

Would love to find a well respected NYC program with reasonable hours-- community or university affiliated, doesn't matter. Anyone know of one?

Red Flag

 

[Moochie]

Red Flag

Ouch!... I think

Here's the deal-- I'm a hard working student with a good application whose totally excited about pathology. But, I also have a husband and a kid that I'd like to spend some time with. I'd love to find a program that will help me become a terrific pathologist, while not scutting me out past 10pm.

 

[sinaility]

Well, I interviewed at some New York programs and I didn't think they were that spectacular. Mount Sinai has way, way, way too much volume and the residents there were averaging 130's in autopsies. I don't like autopsy THAT much, actually I don't like it at all. Did you guys see the pathology department? That place is the ugliest place I have ever seen, the halls were cramped with bins and crap and there stuff was so old, I thought it was a museum or something. I didn't interview at Columbia or Cornell but I heard the housing is crap and its on a month-to-month basis (means no guarantee)and there have been instances (that I was told of) where a resident was kicked out for an incoming resident without much warning. I interviewed at St. Luke's but I don't remember much about it (I did remember that they took me to 3 different hospitals for interviews though). I declined the NYU and SUNY-Brooklyn interview. I decide not to rank any NY programs cause its way too expensive to live there.

Ok I have to address this one! Mount Sinai residents do not avg 130 autopsies during their training. We avg around 50 like everyone else, but we don't have to share cases at all to get the required number. Our volume is HUGE, but that's what makes our program famous for producing bad a$$ diagnosticians. We have a subspecialty based program and get to see some extremely rare and interesting diseases. The amount of scutwork is the same as everywhere else, as we have tons of PAs and ancillary staff to make up the difference for this extra volume. The big volume of our department is an advantage to this program. Yes I work alot harder than a resident at a community program or smaller academic hospital, but I'm averaging less than 50 work hours a week. That's not too bad. It will pay off when I apply for fellowships and jobs. Yes our facilities suck with very old equipment, but three floors of the Atran building have been gutted for expansion and multi-million dollar renovations are about to take place in a few months. It just goes to show you how little applicants get to know about a program after only one interview day.

 

[yaah]

If you're averaging 50 hours a week you are not seeing more cases than most residency programs. Unless you are including clin path in there as well. On the average surg path day I spend 12-14 hours.

 

[sinaility]

If you're averaging 50 hours a week you are not seeing more cases than most residency programs. Unless you are including clin path in there as well. On the average surg path day I spend 12-14 hours.

I'm definitely averaging CP in there. CP days are about 6-7 hours a day. Surgical days average 12-14 hours. (AP hours, 14 x 5 days=70 hours; CP hours, 6 x 5 days= 30 hours; Average, AP+CP 100/2= 50 hours).

However there is alot of variation to my day-to-day schedule.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

If you're averaging 50 hours a week you are not seeing more cases than most residency programs. Unless you are including clin path in there as well. On the average surg path day I spend 12-14 hours.

That post sparked a little discussion when a fellow resident came over to hang out while I was previewing. We took a break and I showed him this post since he complains about working too much. I'm not joking when I saw this...he saw "Mt. Sinai" and "50 hours" and almost fell out of his chair.

Here's how I would try to interpret this...perhaps the residents there have lots of dedicated scope time and minimal grossing with the PA and ancillary staff support. Maybe they don't have to spend an hour just getting paperwork together. I'm assuming that this poster is not averaging 50 hours a week on SURGICAL pathology rotations.

Seriously, if you take frozen section coverage and grossing out of the equation, your days are very reasonable.

 

[sinaility]

That post sparked a little discussion when a fellow resident came over to hang out while I was previewing. We took a break and I showed him this post since he complains about working too much. I'm not joking when I saw this...he saw "Mt. Sinai" and "50 hours" and almost fell out of his chair.

Here's how I would try to interpret this...perhaps the residents there have lots of dedicated scope time and minimal grossing with the PA and ancillary staff support. Maybe they don't have to spend an hour just getting paperwork together. I'm assuming that this poster is not averaging 50 hours a week on SURGICAL pathology rotations.

Seriously, if you take frozen section coverage and grossing out of the equation, your days are very reasonable.

Hi Andy! I would like to say that your posts are hilarious.
With regards to our program, I would have to say that one of the main advantages of having so much volume is that the residents really develop an eye for pattern recognition. I've seen some of the senior residents fly through over 5 trays of biopsies previewing in like an hour and be 100% correct (I know this because I had to cover for a senior once who gave me all of their cases to sign out with a provisional diagnosis written on the sheets). The same thing applies to grossing here as well. Efficiency is built into the core of your training because otherwise you will drown. That's why we have such great job placement when we get out of here. It can be stressful though, but so is being an attending pathologist when you are finished with your training. My eyes aren't that fast yet, but I'm getting there. The most common feedback from our graduating residents that go on to MSKCC is that they didn't appreciate how efficient their training at MSSM was. They report that other fellows from other programs are there till the wee hours of the night doing the same work while they are finished by 7-8:00pm. Don't get me wrong, we have LOTS of work to do, but you learn DAY #1 that twiddling your thumbs all day means you will be there until 3:00am. We do have a pretty good amount of ancillary staff that keeps the scut down, so I really appreciate that component of the department.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Hi Andy! I would like to say that your posts are hilarious.
With regards to our program, I would have to say that one of the main advantages of having so much volume is that the residents really develop an eye for pattern recognition.

I think people underestimate the power of pattern recognition. Personally, I would rather see more cases with my own eyes rather than reading a textbook. Plus, patients don't always follow the textbook so relying on the textbook rather than experience can be quite restrictive and crippling.

I've seen some of the senior residents fly through over 5 trays of biopsies previewing in like an hour and be 100% correct (I know this because I had to cover for a senior once who gave me all of their cases to sign out with a provisional diagnosis written on the sheets). The same thing applies to grossing here as well. Efficiency is built into the core of your training because otherwise you will drown. That's why we have such great job placement when we get out of here. It can be stressful though, but so is being an attending pathologist when you are finished with your training.

I actually think it's more stressful when you ARE the attending and it's YOUR ass that's on the line. As a resident, I am totally fine with putting a few guesses down for hard cases, dotting the areas in question on the slide, and moving on. As an attending, you're the last line of defense against an erroneous diagnosis.

Don't get me wrong, we have LOTS of work to do, but you learn DAY #1 that twiddling your thumbs all day means you will be there until 3:00am. We do have a pretty good amount of ancillary staff that keeps the scut down, so I really appreciate that component of the department.

Well, f*ck. I better get back to previewing instead of horsing around. geddy, if you remember him...he used to post on here, was previewing in the next door room and i've been playing fart jokes on him. OK...better stop this chicanery or I'm never going home.

 

[beary]

geddy, if you remember him...he used to post on here,

Tell geddy to come back! I miss his posts!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Tell geddy to come back! I miss his posts!

I don't. But I see him every day and we help each other out but also give each other a lotta crap just for sh*ts and giggles.

To add to my above post, since I felt a little rushed before...I think doing a lot of work does increase your efficiency as well as proficiency. I tend to learn a lot more by doing. I've learned so much here so far just by going through all the work and seeing a wide variety of tricky cases that can really throw you around. If you realy want to learn a trade, you simply have to put in your time. But if you go to any high volume center, you will be well trained. And many programs fit this category.

 

[desmangt]

Would love to find a well respected NYC program with reasonable hours-- community or university affiliated, doesn't matter. Anyone know of one?

Not to be a jerk, but this is the kinda crap that drives me insane. Why does everyone think pathology residency is going to be easy? In fact its probably one of the toughest residencies to complete. More path residents fail the boards every year than any other specialty. Just to be a minimally competent pathologist is still hard, let alone an expert. The lifestyle gets good after you have been trained and know what you are doing, but even then you have to read and be self motivated to stay on top of the new concepts. Not aiming my comments at the above poster, I find that there are two types of pathology residents: those who go into it thinking of lifestyle and those who really love it. The ones looking for an easy residency end up being incompetent pathologists who can't diagnose anything and dump all of their scutwork on the one's who really want to learn. You might have to work hard on AP rotations during the week, but weekends are usually free in path. Won't your kids be in school during the week anyway? If family time is that important, I suggest doing a three year AP only program at a top notch institution. Just get it over with. Half effort for 4 years at a small, low volume community program may end up giving you nothing. You might graduate and get a job, but run the risk of not being trained appropriately.

Ouch!... I think

Here's the deal-- I'm a hard working student with a good application whose totally excited about pathology. But, I also have a husband and a kid that I'd like to spend some time with. I'd love to find a program that will help me become a terrific pathologist, while not scutting me out past 10pm.

The perception of becoming an excellent pathologist without doing any work is delusional. Just like everything else you had to do to get this far, hard work is required. I recommend reading Andy's post listed above. I think he is dead on.

 

[Moochie]

Not to be a jerk, but this is the kinda crap that drives me insane. Why does everyone think pathology residency is going to be easy? In fact its probably one of the toughest residencies to complete. More path residents fail the boards every year than any other specialty. Just to be a minimally competent pathologist is still damn hard, let alone an expert. The lifestyle gets good after you have been trained and know what the hell you are doing. I find that there are two types of pathology residents: those who go into it thinking of lifestyle and those who really love it. The ones looking for an easy residency end up being piece of $$hit residents who can't diagnose crap and dump all of their work on the one's who really want to learn. You might have to work hard on AP rotations during the week, but weekends are usually free in path. Won't your kids be in school during the week anyway? If family time is that important, I suggest sucking it up and doing a three year AP only program at a top notch institution. Just get it over with. Half a$$ effort for 4 years at a small, low volume community program will give you nothing. You might graduate and get a job, but you won't have it for long after they realize you can't diagnose crap or kill someone.

When I first ready your post, I felt damn annoyed!
But,... after re-reading my own post, I must reluctantly admit that I can at least partly understand what's gotten some of you all hot and bothered. That being said, it'd be nice to have been given the benefit of the doubt. In no way am I expecting an 8-5 type job during residency. In fact at this point during the process, the program I expect to rank #1 is considered to be one of the most rigorous in the country. But, I also don't think that the quality of training you receive is perfectly proportional to the hours spent at the hospital. It is more complex than that. And for me, the difference between getting home at 9 or 10 and getting home at 10 or 11 (on surg path) is significant-- it means I may get to tuck my little girl into bed at night. Also, at the path program where I am the residents do go in on most weekends during surg path. So, let's be clear-- I am NOT expecting an easy residency, I love pathology, and will make a great pathologist. Got it desmangt? 😎

Anyway, lesson learned. I will be much more careful about how I word my posts in the future-- don't want to get you guys all worked up again. 🙂
moochie

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I hope you don't think I was hot and bothered at you. My posts regarding hard work were for general consumption and not "targeted" at anyone. Everyone has their own issues as to how they will choose programs...and people should respect that.

Moochie, you make a good point. Personally, my productivity and learning decreases past 8 pm roughly. I'm pretty much pooped mentally and my give a damn gets turned off by that point. Staying later and later into the night does not proportionately lead to more and more learning, I agree. That's why sometimes when I have a lot to preview, I'll finish some cases and then say "f*ck it" and go home. Of course, I'll come in extra early the next morning to take a crack at the remaining cases. Let me tell ya...the difference between previewing the next morning with a fresh mind vs. previewing late at night when you're mentally tired is like night and day. Perhaps, regardless of the program you go to, you can use this strategy. That way you can spend precious time with your family but still address your cases and maximize your learning experience. A classmate of mine is in a similar situation. He has 2 kids and leaves at a reasonable time to spend time with his family. Sometimes that requires him to wake up early and finish his work in the morning before 8 am signout.

 

[desmangt]

When I first ready your post, I felt damn annoyed!
But,... after re-reading my own post, I must reluctantly admit that I can at least partly understand what's gotten some of you all hot and bothered. That being said, it'd be nice to have been given the benefit of the doubt. In no way am I expecting an 8-5 type job during residency. In fact at this point during the process, the program I expect to rank #1 is considered to be one of the most rigorous in the country. But, I also don't think that the quality of training you receive is perfectly proportional to the hours spent at the hospital. It is more complex than that. And for me, the difference between getting home at 9 or 10 and getting home at 10 or 11 (on surg path) is significant-- it means I may get to tuck my little girl into bed at night. Also, at the path program where I am the residents do go in on most weekends during surg path. So, let's be clear-- I am NOT expecting an easy residency, I love pathology, and will make a great pathologist. Got it desmangt? 😎

Anyway, lesson learned. I will be much more careful about how I word my posts in the future-- don't want to get you guys all worked up again. 🙂
moochie

I'm sorry if I came off harsh. Which I'll admit it reads that way. My comment wasn't really meant to be directed at you, but the "mind-set" of people looking for the most lifestyle accommadating residency program. The thing with pathology is that it is easier to match into (for now). However, it is very competitive to get into a good program. In my opinion, the number of quality pathology programs out there really suffers compared to other specialties. I've been told alot of this has to do with CP medicare cuts that happened in the 1980's, but I won't go into that here. Anyway, what I really wanted to express is that looking for a quality program, despite lifestyle factors, really should be the #1 priority in this process. The downside is that all quality programs require hard work from the residents. I have met residents who don't know anything and others whose diagnostic skills are mind blowing come from the same institution. Now since your issue is just needing to get home an hour or two early, I would say that busting your butt during the day should suffice. I was just warning that "lifestyle #1" as a priority may be catastrophic in the overall process of one becoming a pathologist. There are other lifestyle oriented fields of medicine that aren't as complicated as pathology. Pathology really isn't that lifestyle friendly other than the fact your weekends are usually free. Pathology is very difficult and requires a life long interest to be truly successful. You can come from Harvard Medical School but end up being incompetent in pathology at the end of the day. I hope you the best on this process, and again I appologize for sounding so harsh.