newly pharmD graduate, what's next?

[KVH7]

i'm a newly PharmD graduate from Iran with enormous interests IT and Management and economics. currently i'm in some kind of confusion regarding me next move in my career.

i don't like to work in a community pharmacy /retailers . no body ( peoples, doctors, technicians respect you as a part of healthcare system.
i'm so what interested in hospital and pharmaceutical works.
i worked for a healthcare startup for a while and had many offers to join pharmaceutical companies.
my thesis was in a pharmacognosie/photochemical area and right now i'm doing a research on assessing the readiness of Iran's Healthcare system for digitization .

i'm really interested in AI and machine learning and implementing it in different Pharmacy criteria and healthcare in general.

but i can't really find a program or position to fit in ... i'm not sure if i should try to get Master in AI? seek a postdoc position in AI+healthcare studies or get a PhD in medical economics and management ... there are also MPH MHA etc available

my goal is to have my own business based on healthcare algorithms or be a part of a similar company and have a meaningful impact on my society. but it seems there is not that much for a pharmacist in these areas ...

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[steveysmith54]

In America we mostly count by fives, close the bottle, and ring up the patient. Of course hoping that there is no insurance problems, customer complaints, and we are given at least 32 hours of work per week.

Hope that helps

 

[DIPEA]

I am currently enrolled in the Georgia Tech analytics micromaster on EdX, and planning to apply to Georgia Tech master of analytics early next year and hopefully get the offer before I will even graduate with that lowly PharmD next June. Personally I enjoy programming and fitting models much more than doing those boring as hell pharmacy BS day in day out.

But since I assume you are in Iran, EdX probably won't work for you, for the reasons we all know. But there are definitely many routes to get away from retail and get into machine learning/AI.

 

[KVH7]

I am currently enrolled in the Georgia Tech analytics micromaster on EdX, and planning to apply to Georgia Tech master of analytics early next year and hopefully get the offer before I will even graduate with that lowly PharmD next June. Personally I enjoy programming and fitting models much more than doing those boring as hell pharmacy BS day in day out.

But since I assume you are in Iran, EdX probably won't work for you, for the reasons we all know. But there are definitely many routes to get away from retail and get into machine learning/AI.

Well you are right XD
I am currently enrolled in MITx Microeconomics on Edx and i'm planning on taking two other in data science and AI.
there is this thing in Iran called "Tarh" which means you have to work two full years in a governmental section (retail, industry, hospital, etc) in order to receive your degree diploma and i'm going to use this as a buffering period to sort things out .

i also searched for a related postdoc position but i couldn't find anything for a pharmacist with IT interests 🙂
so i guess companies/institutes are more interested in a PhD in data/AI or even a GP rather than a pharmacist. my main interest is Data/AI but i don't know the job market and its future in my country/abroad. i might even give it up for Pharmacoeconomics ....

 

[lcow2004]

Well you are right XD
I am currently enrolled in MITx Microeconomics on Edx and i'm planning on taking two other in data science and AI.
there is this thing in Iran called "Tarh" which means you have to work two full years in a governmental section (retail, industry, hospital, etc) in order to receive your degree diploma and i'm going to use this as a buffering period to sort things out .

i also searched for a related postdoc position but i couldn't find anything for a pharmacist with IT interests 🙂
so i guess companies/institutes are more interested in a PhD in data/AI or even a GP rather than a pharmacist. my main interest is Data/AI but i don't know the job market and its future in my country/abroad. i might even give it up for Pharmacoeconomics ....

There is certainly many opportunities for pharmacists to get into data science and AI/machine learning. This is a very rapidly growing field and there are many startups and established companies out there in tech and healthcare looking for people who have a background in healthcare and can also speak the technical data science and AI language so there are many good opportunities around if this is your interest.

 

[DIPEA]

Well you are right XD
I am currently enrolled in MITx Microeconomics on Edx and i'm planning on taking two other in data science and AI.
there is this thing in Iran called "Tarh" which means you have to work two full years in a governmental section (retail, industry, hospital, etc) in order to receive your degree diploma and i'm going to use this as a buffering period to sort things out .

i also searched for a related postdoc position but i couldn't find anything for a pharmacist with IT interests 🙂
so i guess companies/institutes are more interested in a PhD in data/AI or even a GP rather than a pharmacist. my main interest is Data/AI but i don't know the job market and its future in my country/abroad. i might even give it up for Pharmacoeconomics ....

TBH, the lowly PharmD alone doesn't really add much value to most employers in the private sector. The only added benefit of its integration with AI is that you may have some "expert opinion" than those who purely come from a math/cs background when building some statistical learning models like bayesian regression in a related pharma field, GIVEN that you and that math/cs guy have comparable data analytics competency.

That being said, one thing you do have to be aware is that, once you decide to dive into data analytics, you need to accept that you have to be a good programmer/data scientist first and foremost in terms of skill set, then being capable of applying whatever you learned from pharmacy when the data is relevant. Technically you are no longer a pharmacist any more. You are a data scientist with knowledge in pharmacy. That's all.

 

[steveysmith54]

TBH, the lowly PharmD alone doesn't really add much value to most employers in the private sector. The only added benefit of its integration with AI is that you may have some "expert opinion" than those who purely come from a math/cs background when building some statistical learning models like bayesian regression in a related pharma field, GIVEN that you and that math/cs guy have comparable data analytics competency.

That being said, one thing you do have to be aware is that, once you decide to dive into data analytics, you need to accept that you have to be a good programmer/data scientist first and foremost in terms of skill set, then being capable of applying whatever you learned from pharmacy when the data is relevant. Technically you are no longer a pharmacist any more. You are a data scientist with knowledge in pharmacy. That's all.

I think those are great points. In the US, most pharmacy programs prepare students to provide patient care (work in retail), if you happen to a attend a good school, you’re taught enough clinical pharmacy, disease states, and pharmacology/pharmacokinetics to work inpatient. Most schools have students do 1-2 years of rotations where are a lot of the time, they are even taught anything (depending on the strength of the rotations/preceptors). Perhaps abroad the degree and curriculum are deferent. I know a lot of pharmacists trained in India and Jordan who have extensive research experience

 

[KVH7]

TBH, the lowly PharmD alone doesn't really add much value to most employers in the private sector. The only added benefit of its integration with AI is that you may have some "expert opinion" than those who purely come from a math/cs background when building some statistical learning models like bayesian regression in a related pharma field, GIVEN that you and that math/cs guy have comparable data analytics competency.

That being said, one thing you do have to be aware is that, once you decide to dive into data analytics, you need to accept that you have to be a good programmer/data scientist first and foremost in terms of skill set, then being capable of applying whatever you learned from pharmacy when the data is relevant. Technically you are no longer a pharmacist any more. You are a data scientist with knowledge in pharmacy. That's all.

those are very good points and in parts, some of my biggest fears/problems.
i can't get my head around the fact that in data science world my PharmD won't matter that much and then there is this BIG job opportunity/security concern if i enter the data world and IF i want to stay in my country.
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i didn't expect to receive this much good advise/point when i created this topic so ... thank you!

 

[DIPEA]

I think those are great points. In the US, most pharmacy programs prepare students to provide patient care (work in retail), if you happen to a attend a good school, you’re taught enough clinical pharmacy, disease states, and pharmacology/pharmacokinetics to work inpatient. Most schools have students do 1-2 years of rotations where are a lot of the time, they are even taught anything (depending on the strength of the rotations/preceptors). Perhaps abroad the degree and curriculum are deferent. I know a lot of pharmacists trained in India and Jordan who have extensive research experience

Well said! I totally agree!
That's why I am so disappointed with the PharmD education in north america. I attend a research-intensive school, and the whole curriculum revolves around learning clinical therapeutics, for which if I do study hard, I could easily ace all of them. But unlike many of my friends who are eager to go into clinical pharmacy, you know all that, residency then hopefully get a hospital job with their fingers crossed when they are done. I was deep concerned with the curriculum filled with memorization and regurgitation, so I basically spent as little time as I possibly could to just pass all courses and graduate on time, and I spent as much time as I possibly could to beef up my programming skills and learning data analytics and machine learning with any resources I could find in the past two years. The goal is clear now: graduate with that lowly PharmD, go for master of analytics/cs, then move on.

Really, what's the point of memorizing everything in a book chapter or lecture slides, regurgitate on exams, then completely forget all of them days after? Especially for the current job market, what's the reward of spending days and nights cramming, but only for a bleak job prospect after graduation?
The faculty obviously doesn't give damn about what we think. Those high-paid professors and those clinical lecturers with multiple academic titles on top of PharmD will always turn a blind eye to the emerging technological disruption on the horizon, and I have a feeling that they are even afraid to directly talk about that in the public for whatever reasons. Everybody knows AI is on the rise, and it is no joke when Amazon can finally undercuts CVS and Walgreens and completely disrupt retail and maybe even hospital pharmacy.

Now I am 2 months into my APPE, and I am still spending ~40 hours per week on my learning after work. My boring community rotation simply gave me much more motivation than ever to leave this dying field of pharmacy. Retail pharmacy is just so toxic, and I can foresee that it will suck the life out of me if I stay for too long.

 

[DIPEA]

those are very good points and in parts, some of my biggest fears/problems.
i can't get my head around the fact that in data science world my PharmD won't matter that much and then there is this BIG job opportunity/security concern if i enter the data world and IF i want to stay in my country.
-------
i didn't expect to receive this much good advise/point when i created this topic so ... thank you!

PharmD is not completely useless in data science, just to tell you that.
From my understanding though, PharmD, like PhD in any other STEM fields, with sufficient training in data analytics of course, can become great data scientists numerous companies whether big or small are all vying for. The reason is actually not hard to understand: data science all starts with asking the right question and understand what type of analytical question to ask in the first place to solve the problem, then input their "expert opinion" when building the models, and finally interpret from an insider's technical standpoint and convey the solution to the management in simple terms. Data science, or the process of building models is as much of an art as science! It CAN make a world's difference when the data scientist actually knows exactly what the problem is and understand the relevant background of the problem, so that much better models and more insightful interpretations can be found. That's why we see so many PhDs in fields other than traditional math/stats/cs getting hired by FAANG companies for data scientists positions in recent years.

With all I have said prior, there is one thing remaining though: are you willing to go ALL OUT to pursue this journey of data analytics?
PharmD does have this added benefit for "expert opinion", aka the "magic touch" for existing data scientists, but you also have to be good with the absolute requirement of being able to build models and analyze them, just like those from math/cs background.
I have met many people who said they were "interested" in data science, but hardly any of them was able to continue after running into some problems either with math or programming a few weeks or a few months down the road, then they quit. Data science is not easy at all tbh, unlike many websites claim it to be. It requires a lot of things from you: programming competence (python, r, sql and at least some basic understanding of data structures and algorithms), solid math/statistics foundation (multivariable calculus and linear algebra), a lot of TIME to practice and learn, and perseverance.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Well said! I totally agree!
That's why I am so disappointed with the PharmD education in north america. I attend a research-intensive school, and the whole curriculum revolves around learning clinical therapeutics, for which if I do study hard, I could easily ace all of them. But unlike many of my friends who are eager to go into clinical pharmacy, you know all that, residency then hopefully get a hospital job with their fingers crossed when they are done. I was deep concerned with the curriculum filled with memorization and regurgitation, so I basically spent as little time as I possibly could to just pass all courses and graduate on time, and I spent as much time as I possibly could to beef up my programming skills and learning data analytics and machine learning with any resources I could find in the past two years. The goal is clear now: graduate with that lowly PharmD, go for master of analytics/cs, then move on.

Really, what's the point of memorizing everything in a book chapter or lecture slides, regurgitate on exams, then completely forget all of them days after? Especially for the current job market, what's the reward of spending days and nights cramming, but only for a bleak job prospect after graduation?
The faculty obviously doesn't give damn about what we think. Those high-paid professors and those clinical lecturers with multiple academic titles on top of PharmD will always turn a blind eye to the emerging technological disruption on the horizon, and I have a feeling that they are even afraid to directly talk about that in the public for whatever reasons. Everybody knows AI is on the rise, and it is no joke when Amazon can finally undercuts CVS and Walgreens and completely disrupt retail and maybe even hospital pharmacy.

Now I am 2 months into my APPE, and I am still spending ~40 hours per week on my learning after work. My boring community rotation simply gave me much more motivation than ever to leave this dying field of pharmacy. Retail pharmacy is just so toxic, and I can foresee that it will suck the life out of me if I stay for too long.

Good analysis. You are correct that a PharmD by itself is a lowly degree because they are a dime a dozen nowadays, so if you were doing any other graduate degree then you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects.

This is doubly the case if you are doing a dual degree and trying to get into a nontraditional field immediately following graduation because you have zero real work experience (APPEs don’t count for anything) and do not have the same credibility that a real pharmacist who has been practicing for years has— so it is as if you haven’t gone to pharmacy school at all. Like you said, you would be seen as a data scientist first and foremost and not as a hybrid between a pharmacist and programmer (though you would likely be able to apply some of the pharmacy knowledge you know to your job). So therein lies the challenge: do you have the programming skills to become a data scientist if you leave your PharmD out of the equation? For 99% of pharmacists who are “interested in informatics” or a related discipline, that answer is no.

 

[DIPEA]

Good analysis. You are correct that a PharmD by itself is a lowly degree because they are a dime a dozen nowadays, so if you were doing any other graduate degree then you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects.

This is doubly the case if you are doing a dual degree and trying to get into a nontraditional field immediately following graduation because you have zero real work experience (APPEs don’t count for anything) and do not have the same credibility that a real pharmacist who has been practicing for years has— so it is as if you haven’t gone to pharmacy school at all. Like you said, you would be seen as a data scientist first and foremost and not as a hybrid between a pharmacist and programmer (though you would likely be able to apply some of the pharmacy knowledge you know to your job). So therein lies the challenge: do you have the programming skills to become a data scientist if you leave your PharmD out of the equation? For 99% of pharmacists who are “interested in informatics” or a related discipline, that answer is no.

I agree!
Thank God I went to a cheap school, and I had a year and half experience working for a big name pharma/biotech company on the R&D side before going back to pharm school. I went in knowing I won't do retail, so I mostly went only for the degree for career advancement and I purposely picked the cheapest but reputable school. PhD was too long and too uncertain so I dropped that idea.
I came from a strong math background in undergrad, taking math, stats and physics courses with engineering students all the way up to 3rd year. For the past two years, I took all the good r/python/java/c/c++/sas on coursera, and now I am doing the micromaster with georgia tech on edx and data structures and algorithms on coursera. We have some math/cs people in the micromaster courses hoping to apply to the georgia tech master of analytics degree next year as well. Personally, I don't have any problems with implementing my ideas with code for any of the homework assignments, which are quite challenging tbh, and I don't have any issues with the math and stats either, thanks to the undergrad foundation and the past two years of prep of course.

 

[DIPEA]

Good analysis. You are correct that a PharmD by itself is a lowly degree because they are a dime a dozen nowadays, so if you were doing any other graduate degree then you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects.

This is doubly the case if you are doing a dual degree and trying to get into a nontraditional field immediately following graduation because you have zero real work experience (APPEs don’t count for anything) and do not have the same credibility that a real pharmacist who has been practicing for years has— so it is as if you haven’t gone to pharmacy school at all. Like you said, you would be seen as a data scientist first and foremost and not as a hybrid between a pharmacist and programmer (though you would likely be able to apply some of the pharmacy knowledge you know to your job). So therein lies the challenge: do you have the programming skills to become a data scientist if you leave your PharmD out of the equation? For 99% of pharmacists who are “interested in informatics” or a related discipline, that answer is no.

For the vast majority, I would have to say, yes, it's hard for them to learn data science.
As far as I am aware of, I might be the only student in my cohort and also possibly the year above or below mine as well, preparing to leave the field even still in school. A lot of my pharmacy friends were asking me what I was doing since I rarely show up in class, and they can only see me on exam days. I told them what I was doing and they were so shocked. After I chatted with some of them, I think I know why.

1. Pharmacy school is now mostly girls! If you check the 2018 conferred degree data released by AACP, guys only make up 37% of the grads. I think it is a well-known fact that girls generally do not go into programming-intensive fields.

2. Self-selection. Most people I have talked to in pharm school, girls and guys, do not like or outright hate math/programming, and that's why they chose pharmacy in the first place. You just can't expect them to learn something they hate and try to avoid all their lives.

3. Many people only talk tough but never really deliver. I think that's the case for many, including many on this forum. Everybody knows retail is sickening, yet many still sign the contract and work in retail. For whatever reasons, either debt or just the personality of being risk-averse, many will say they will do whatever, but hardly anyone truly deliver and live by their own words.

 

[DIPEA]

Good analysis. You are correct that a PharmD by itself is a lowly degree because they are a dime a dozen nowadays, so if you were doing any other graduate degree then you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects.

This is doubly the case if you are doing a dual degree and trying to get into a nontraditional field immediately following graduation because you have zero real work experience (APPEs don’t count for anything) and do not have the same credibility that a real pharmacist who has been practicing for years has— so it is as if you haven’t gone to pharmacy school at all. Like you said, you would be seen as a data scientist first and foremost and not as a hybrid between a pharmacist and programmer (though you would likely be able to apply some of the pharmacy knowledge you know to your job). So therein lies the challenge: do you have the programming skills to become a data scientist if you leave your PharmD out of the equation? For 99% of pharmacists who are “interested in informatics” or a related discipline, that answer is no.

I agree that PharmD is a lowly degree. But essentially all degrees are a dime a dozen nowadays, including MD, and CS related ones. If you follow the medical section of SDN, you should know that many medical schools are also pushing for dual degrees of MD/MPH, MD/MBA, etc. And for some specialties, MDs may also be concerned with their job prospects after their residency/fellowship.

I have many friends in the tech field, including some Googlers. The solution is never clear cut for everyone tbh. If someone is good enough and chase after immediate reward, they can certainly just do a bachelor of CS and work for an IT firm. BUT there is a catch though! Ageism is real in IT, especially in tech hubs like San Francisco Bay. Many pure software engineers will have a hard time keeping a job or getting a new one after they hit 35 yo mark, unless they are good enough to advance into management. IF that is the reality, they might end up worse than those who delayed their satisfaction a bit and went for PhD for example.

Some dual degrees are completely useless, like PharmD/MBA. but others remain yet to be seen. As long as the overall debt load is well-managed, why not giving it a try? Who knows what will happen in the near future? Maybe Amazon kills off CVS and Walgreens in the next 5-10 years, and completely automates retail pharmacy, and a bunch of data scientist/data engineer/software engineer positions requiring pharmacy exp will open up. Even if it doesn't, a PharmD with legit DS/CS competence should lead to faster career advancement opportunities among a team of software engineers for pharmacy or healthcare-related projects in any health tech firms. Everything is only a speculation now, and healthcare AI is still in its infancy stage, and I think it is just too early to say "you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects".

Yes, for nontraditional career paths, the second technical degree will help to get the foot in the door. But once someone gets in the door, the first degree should help propel the individual to advance further in an environment where everyone has the second technical degree.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I agree that PharmD is a lowly degree. But essentially all degrees are a dime a dozen nowadays, including MD, and CS related ones. If you follow the medical section of SDN, you should know that many medical schools are also pushing for dual degrees of MD/MPH, MD/MBA, etc. And for some specialties, MDs may also be concerned with their job prospects after their residency/fellowship.

I have many friends in the tech field, including some Googlers. The solution is never clear cut for everyone tbh. If someone is good enough and chase after immediate reward, they can certainly just do a bachelor of CS and work for an IT firm. BUT there is a catch though! Ageism is real in IT, especially in tech hubs like San Francisco Bay. Many pure software engineers will have a hard time keeping a job or getting a new one after they hit 35 yo mark, unless they are good enough to advance into management. IF that is the reality, they might end up worse than those who delayed their satisfaction a bit and went for PhD for example.

Some dual degrees are completely useless, like PharmD/MBA. but others remain yet to be seen. As long as the overall debt load is well-managed, why not giving it a try? Who knows what will happen in the near future? Maybe Amazon kills off CVS and Walgreens in the next 5-10 years, and completely automates retail pharmacy, and a bunch of data scientist/data engineer/software engineer positions requiring pharmacy exp will open up. Even if it doesn't, a PharmD with legit DS/CS competence should lead to faster career advancement opportunities among a team of software engineers for pharmacy or healthcare-related projects in any health tech firms. Everything is only a speculation now, and healthcare AI is still in its infancy stage, and I think it is just too early to say "you really are only leveraging that degree and not the PharmD when it comes to job prospects".

Yes, for nontraditional career paths, the second technical degree will help to get the foot in the door. But once someone gets in the door, the first degree should help propel the individual to advance further in an environment where everyone has the second technical degree.

Thing is, if I were to reverse engineer what credentials I would want to have if I wanted to go into healthcare IT, then I’d pick an MD as the clinical degree of choice as it is broadly applicable to the healthcare industry while pharmacy in Health IT is a niche within a niche. Pharmacists have a tendency to think that just because something is related to a drug, it should be under their jurisdiction because “they are the drug experts,” but nothing can be further from the truth because the pharmaceuticals industry is not the same as the pharmacy industry. In other words, you don’t really need pharmacists doing IT related work because virtually all of the products in health tech firms are provider-centric. So whether it be digital health technologies or AIML at the point of prescribing, the real value of clinicians in tech is to have people who can “think like a doctor.” Sorry pharmacists, you aren’t real doctors and the world doesn’t revolve around your “provider status” shenanigans. I have yet to see any jobs in healthcare tech where the ability to “think like a pharmacist” is uniquely valued compared to being able to “think like a doctor.”

 

[DIPEA]

Thing is, if I were to reverse engineer what credentials I would want to have if I wanted to go into healthcare IT, then I’d pick an MD as the clinical degree of choice as it is broadly applicable to the healthcare industry while pharmacy in Health IT is a niche within a niche. Pharmacists have a tendency to think that just because something is related to a drug, it should be under their jurisdiction because “they are the drug experts,” but nothing can be further from the truth because the pharmaceuticals industry is not the same as the pharmacy industry. In other words, you don’t really need pharmacists doing IT related work because virtually all of the products in health tech firms are provider-centric. So whether it be digital health technologies or AIML at the point of prescribing, the real value of clinicians in tech is to have people who can “think like a doctor.” Sorry pharmacists, you aren’t real doctors and the world doesn’t revolve around your “provider status” shenanigans. I have yet to see any jobs in healthcare tech where the ability to “think like a pharmacist” is uniquely valued compared to being able to “think like a doctor.”

MD is fine, BUT MD without residency is worthless for most employers, just to tell you that. I have seen that myself when I was browsing through job postings of the big name biologics drug maker I was working for during my spare time. A fresh PharmD grad can at least have the opportunity to pick up some drug info/pharmacovigilance associate/associate scientist positions, whereas the lowest entry position for MDs is the associate medical directors for certain internal medicine specialties with no less than 5 years of experience and a proven track record of publications in the field. The employers' expectation is simply vastly different for pharm and medical grads. In addition, family medicine is NOT really applicable to Health IT either, SO do you really want to spend at least 4+3+3n+5 years postbacc for medical school + residency + fellowships, assuming you can get into medical school with first shot?

Of course you haven't seen many of those postings cuz like I have said before, healthcare AI is still in its infancy stage! But still, when you do browse through several of those postings that do exist from health tech startups, they would usually say "healthcare professionals, MD, PharmD, DNP preferred". So, who gives a damn about "think like a doctor" or not? In the private sector, people get paid for the values they can bring to the company, not some academic titles or some "provider status" BS, which are not even relevant to the company.

Seriously, do you really expect anyone who went through medical school + residency + fellowships with a ton of debt to work on the IT side of a healthcare startup? How much salary would they expect from such a job then? Honestly, do you really think they even have any leverage to ask for the typical salary they can get as a specialist in a hospital, which might even exceed the pay of the CEO of the health tech startup? LOOOL

 

[DIPEA]

Thing is, if I were to reverse engineer what credentials I would want to have if I wanted to go into healthcare IT, then I’d pick an MD as the clinical degree of choice as it is broadly applicable to the healthcare industry while pharmacy in Health IT is a niche within a niche. Pharmacists have a tendency to think that just because something is related to a drug, it should be under their jurisdiction because “they are the drug experts,” but nothing can be further from the truth because the pharmaceuticals industry is not the same as the pharmacy industry. In other words, you don’t really need pharmacists doing IT related work because virtually all of the products in health tech firms are provider-centric. So whether it be digital health technologies or AIML at the point of prescribing, the real value of clinicians in tech is to have people who can “think like a doctor.” Sorry pharmacists, you aren’t real doctors and the world doesn’t revolve around your “provider status” shenanigans. I have yet to see any jobs in healthcare tech where the ability to “think like a pharmacist” is uniquely valued compared to being able to “think like a doctor.”

Data analytics skills are applicable universally! If a data scientist wants to work in the field of pharmacy IT, he/she can. If opportunities present themselves in FAANG companies, whether it is health-related project or not, he/she doesn't have to stick with pharmacy IT. The data scientist has the option and flexibility to do whatever. IT is just IT, and ML is ML. It DOESN'T matter where it is applied, pharmacy or not pharmacy. There is no such a thing as "a pharmacist-data scientist has to work in pharmacy IT". This just sounds so absurd! Without the essential data science training, MDs would be completely useless and unemployable for any health tech companies. NO EXCEPTION!

FYI, a quick google search brought me this:
Pharmacist - Data Analyst at Cedars-Sinai

The job title is obvious as it sounds: Pharmacist-Data Analyst, for Cedars-Sinai hospital in LA

If you read through the job description and experience section, you will find essentially Cedars-Sinai is looking for a PharmD with data analytics skills, who will be functioning mainly as a clinical data analyst, with minimal clinical involvement. AND residency is NOT required!

This is a typical clinical data analytics pharmacist should look like in a hospital setting.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Data analytics skills are applicable universally! If a data scientist wants to work in the field of pharmacy IT, he/she can. If opportunities present themselves in FAANG companies, whether it is health-related project or not, he/she don't have to stick with pharmacy IT. The data scientist has the option and flexibility to do whatever. IT is just IT, and ML is ML. It DOESN'T matter where it is applied, pharmacy or not pharmacy. There is no such a thing as "a pharmacist-data scientist has to work in pharmacy IT". This just sounds so absurd!

FYI, a quick google search brought me this:
Pharmacist - Data Analyst at Cedars-Sinai

The job title is obvious as it sounds: Pharmacist-Data Analyst, for Cedars-Sinai hospital in LA

If you read through the job description and experience section, you will find essentially Cedars-Sinai is looking for a PharmD with data analytics skills, who will be functioning mainly as a clinical data analyst, with minimal clinical involvement. AND residency is NOT required!

This is a typical clinical data analytics pharmacist should look like in a hospital setting.

This job has been posted about on this sub. It is essentially a clinical informaticist position with more emphasis on analytics than data architecture like a traditional pharmacist informaticist would be hired to do. And to your other post, it is common knowledge that an MD without residency is useless and if you “became a doctor” then it is implied that you’ve done residency and have a license to practice, whereas a pharmacist could get licensed to practice without residency so to compare a fresh grad MD to a fresh grad RPh is an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyways, I probably should have qualified my response to the applicability of a PharmD to tech with the understanding that I am only discussing positions that would pay a pharmacist salary as relevant comparators. Do I think pharmacy analytics is a broad field that can use a pharmacists? Sure. But most of these data analyst jobs pay $50-80k so it is almost the same thing as asking whether a retail pharmacist would have a transferrable skill set when applying for a pharmacy technician job: yes, but this is not a “career path” because it is a path that only desperate individuals go down. I am not saying that there won’t be growth in analytics because there will be; however it is an overgeneralization to say that those jobs exist today because “healthcare AI is still in its infancy” and we just aren’t looking hard enough for the jobs.

I’d also wager that you are from the SF bay area yourself so your perspective on the job market in health tech is a little different. I will say this: even if the industry figures it out, adoption throughout the rest of the country will be slow and pharmacist jobs in tech will likely be confined to tech hubs — and there will certainly not be enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists.

 

[DIPEA]

This job has been posted about on this sub. It is essentially a clinical informaticist position with more emphasis on analytics than data architecture like a traditional pharmacist informaticist would be hired to do. And to your other post, it is common knowledge that an MD without residency is useless and if you “became a doctor” then it is implied that you’ve done residency and have a license to practice, whereas a pharmacist could get licensed to practice without residency so to compare a fresh grad MD to a fresh grad RPh is an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyways, I probably should have qualified my response to the applicability of a PharmD to tech with the understanding that I am only discussing positions that would pay a pharmacist salary as relevant comparators. Do I think pharmacy analytics is a broad field that can use a pharmacists? Sure. But most of these data analyst jobs pay $50-80k so it is almost the same thing as asking whether a retail pharmacist would have a transferrable skill set when applying for a pharmacy technician job: yes, but this is not a “career path” because it is a path that only desperate individuals go down. I am not saying that there won’t be growth in analytics because there will be; however it is an overgeneralization to say that those jobs exist today because “healthcare AI is still in its infancy” and we just aren’t looking hard enough for the jobs.

I’d also wager that you are from the SF bay area yourself so your perspective on the job market in health tech is a little different. I will say this: even if the industry figures it out, adoption throughout the rest of the country will be slow and pharmacist jobs in tech will likely be confined to tech hubs — and there will certainly not be enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists.

There are different skill levels regarding data scientists, and it often clearly shows in terms of salary. $50-80k is probably for those beginners who only know the basics. Tech firms, whether startups or not, often have to pay double or triple that amount with generous sign-on bonuses and stock options to attract talents. Even the lower-end compensation package would probably out-match the average FT pharmacist pay nationally, so plz explain to me why this is not a "career path"?

Yes, I am from SF bay area. But why there should be enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists in the first place? Do law schools guarantee jobs? Do engineering schools guarantee jobs? Do even medical schools guarantee jobs? So why is pharmacy so special that there has to be enough retail or hospital jobs to make everyone happy?

 

[DIPEA]

This job has been posted about on this sub. It is essentially a clinical informaticist position with more emphasis on analytics than data architecture like a traditional pharmacist informaticist would be hired to do. And to your other post, it is common knowledge that an MD without residency is useless and if you “became a doctor” then it is implied that you’ve done residency and have a license to practice, whereas a pharmacist could get licensed to practice without residency so to compare a fresh grad MD to a fresh grad RPh is an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyways, I probably should have qualified my response to the applicability of a PharmD to tech with the understanding that I am only discussing positions that would pay a pharmacist salary as relevant comparators. Do I think pharmacy analytics is a broad field that can use a pharmacists? Sure. But most of these data analyst jobs pay $50-80k so it is almost the same thing as asking whether a retail pharmacist would have a transferrable skill set when applying for a pharmacy technician job: yes, but this is not a “career path” because it is a path that only desperate individuals go down. I am not saying that there won’t be growth in analytics because there will be; however it is an overgeneralization to say that those jobs exist today because “healthcare AI is still in its infancy” and we just aren’t looking hard enough for the jobs.

I’d also wager that you are from the SF bay area yourself so your perspective on the job market in health tech is a little different. I will say this: even if the industry figures it out, adoption throughout the rest of the country will be slow and pharmacist jobs in tech will likely be confined to tech hubs — and there will certainly not be enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists.

There is not enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists. That's a known fact. Yes, there are many schools that will admit whoever is alive and willing to pay the hefty tuition. But nobody is forcing them to agree to those terms. Why do pharmacy grads have to work in a pharmacy or a pharmacy-related niche field? There are many engineers and lawyers who switch fields mid-career, why should pharmacy grads be any different? I simply just don't understand this mentality.

Just like nobody will ever know 15 years ago how big Google or Amazon would become what they are today, opportunities exist when the industry is still in its infancy. If it is easy, and everybody knows about it, and everybody is capable of getting it, then what's the point of getting it then? It would be completely worthless. Just like you said, 99% of pharmacists are not suitable for obtaining DS/CS skills, that means 1% still can and will obtain them. And I am very certain there will be plenty of job opportunities for that 1%, even in a niche of niche field, like pharmacy IT, let alone broader applications of their skills in other closely related or unrelated fields.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

There is not enough jobs to meet demands of the oversupply of pharmacists. That's a known fact. Yes, there are many schools that will admit whoever is alive and willing to pay the hefty tuition. But nobody is forcing them to agree to those terms. Why do pharmacy grads have to work in a pharmacy or a pharmacy-related niche field? There are many engineers and lawyers who switch fields mid-career, why should pharmacy grads be any different? I simply just don't understand this mentality.

Just like nobody will ever know 15 years ago how big Google or Amazon would become what they are today, opportunities exist when the industry is still in its infancy. If it is easy, and everybody knows about it, and everybody is capable of getting it, then what's the point of getting it then? It would be completely worthless. Just like you said, 99% of pharmacists are not suitable for obtaining DS/CS skills, that means 1% still can and will obtain them. And I am very certain there will be plenty of job opportunities for that 1%, even in a niche of niche field, like pharmacy IT, let alone broader applications of their skills in other closely related or unrelated fields.

That is because most pre-pharms go into this profession thinking that they will earning an easy paycheck and that jobs will be handed to them. Pharmacists are generally non-confrontational pushovers so there is a specific type of personality that the profession attracts.

I am not discouraging people from pursuing a career change; however what irks me is when people say that there are “many different options/career paths for a pharmacist.” Call it semantics if you like, but I believe there is a firm difference between a “career path” and a niche role you create for yourself. A career path is a mainstream role that is recognized by the industry, while a niche role is just that — a role that requires someone to have nontraditional skills and have applied them in some unique fashion. Sadly, they don’t teach you how to think for yourself in pharmacy school, it is all about “following the leader.”

 

[DIPEA]

That is because most pre-pharms go into this profession thinking that they will earning an easy paycheck and that jobs will be handed to them. Pharmacists are generally non-confrontational pushovers so there is a specific type of personality that the profession attracts.

I am not discouraging people from pursuing a career change; however what irks me is when people say that there are “many different options/career paths for a pharmacist.” Call it semantics if you like, but I believe there is a firm difference between a “career path” and a niche role you create for yourself. A career path is a mainstream role that is recognized by the industry, while a niche role is just that — a role that requires someone to have nontraditional skills and have applied them in some unique fashion. Sadly, they don’t teach you how to think for yourself in pharmacy school, it is all about “following the leader.”

I agree. But pharmacy is not alone, you know. ML algorithms have been killing the law profession lately, massively reducing the demand of doc review jobs for lower-tier JDs. I think recent law grads may fare worse than pharmacy grads because of that. Pharmacy will certainly be next, and medicine is on the way as well.

Well, if you can't beat them, join them~

 

[greenteapanacea]

For the vast majority, I would have to say, yes, it's hard for them to learn data science.
As far as I am aware of, I might be the only student in my cohort and also possibly the year above or below mine as well, preparing to leave the field even still in school. A lot of my pharmacy friends were asking me what I was doing since I rarely show up in class, and they can only see me on exam days. I told them what I was doing and they were so shocked. After I chatted with some of them, I think I know why.

1. Pharmacy school is now mostly girls! If you check the 2018 conferred degree data released by AACP, guys only make up 37% of the grads. I think it is a well-known fact that girls generally do not go into programming-intensive fields.

2. Self-selection. Most people I have talked to in pharm school, girls and guys, do not like or outright hate math/programming, and that's why they chose pharmacy in the first place. You just can't expect them to learn something they hate and try to avoid all their lives.

3. Many people only talk tough but never really deliver. I think that's the case for many, including many on this forum. Everybody knows retail is sickening, yet many still sign the contract and work in retail. For whatever reasons, either debt or just the personality of being risk-averse, many will say they will do whatever, but hardly anyone truly deliver and live by their own words.

I agree with you 100% on point 3.

 

[KVH7]

so after all this who would you guys hire if you were CEO of a Healthcare related IT company

PharmD + good knowledge of DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + a degree in DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + work experience in DS/DA/AI/ML

 

[JustFillIt]

so after all this who would you guys hire if you were CEO of a Healthcare related IT company

PharmD + good knowledge of DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + a degree in DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + work experience in DS/DA/AI/ML

This is a question that lacks insight into the way things really work.

The stuff that you just typed out would have no bearing over how I would hire.

I would not know until I sit down in fro t of someone and assess their communication skills, demeanor, and their stated motivations.

Whoever impresses the most from that is who I would choose

 

[DIPEA]

so after all this who would you guys hire if you were CEO of a Healthcare related IT company

PharmD + good knowledge of DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + a degree in DS/DA/AI/ML
PharmD + work experience in DS/DA/AI/ML

AI, aka Artificial Intelligence, is just a made-up term by the media. It is basically the layman's term for "machine learning algorithms" nowadays.
Data science and data analytics are just fancy terms also invented by the media. They are the umbrella terms for the process of data manipulation, statistical models fitting, validation, testing and interpretation .

No disrespect to you by any means, but you sound like you have almost no clue what you are talking about~

Anyways, in terms of hiring, unless the PharmD candidate can demonstrate at least comparable if not superior competence during the technical interview, the traditional math/cs candidate would get the offer, from my understanding. I think I have said this before, the programming and model building skills are the most essential ones. Without that, no matter whatever academic degrees you have, it's a NO. Having that, whatever you have may become an asset.

A degree is only the path to get the knowledge, and knowledge is required to get the work experience. Of course, experience trumps everything else, including degrees.

 

[Drugsarefun2350]

unemployment

 

[KVH7]

AI, aka Artificial Intelligence, is just a made-up term by the media. It is basically the layman's term for "machine learning algorithms" nowadays.
Data science and data analytics are just fancy terms also invented by the media. They are the umbrella terms for the process of data manipulation, statistical models fitting, validation, testing and interpretation .

No disrespect to you by any means, but you sound like you have almost no clue what you are talking about~

Anyways, in terms of hiring, unless the PharmD candidate can demonstrate at least comparable if not superior competence during the technical interview, the traditional math/cs candidate would get the offer, from my understanding. I think I have said this before, the programming and model building skills are the most essential ones. Without that, no matter whatever academic degrees you have, it's a NO. Having that, whatever you have may become an asset.

A degree is only the path to get the knowledge, and knowledge is required to get the work experience. Of course, experience trumps everything else, including degrees.

i'm merely trying to understand the preference between basic knowledge, work experience and a degree ( mostly the last two ), for a firm ( big or small ) ... so yeah i know that you have to be impressive in interview and the meaning of the words you explained XD.

 

[Lubeckd]

I agree!
Thank God I went to a cheap school, and I had a year and half experience working for a big name pharma/biotech company on the R&D side before going back to pharm school. I went in knowing I won't do retail, so I mostly went only for the degree for career advancement and I purposely picked the cheapest but reputable school. PhD was too long and too uncertain so I dropped that idea.
I came from a strong math background in undergrad, taking math, stats and physics courses with engineering students all the way up to 3rd year. For the past two years, I took all the good r/python/java/c/c++/sas on coursera, and now I am doing the micromaster with georgia tech on edx and data structures and algorithms on coursera. We have some math/cs people in the micromaster courses hoping to apply to the georgia tech master of analytics degree next year as well. Personally, I don't have any problems with implementing my ideas with code for any of the homework assignments, which are quite challenging tbh, and I don't have any issues with the math and stats either, thanks to the undergrad foundation and the past two years of prep of course.

courera? you need to practice everyday though. coursera is all theory

 

[Lubeckd]

i'm merely trying to understand the preference between basic knowledge, work experience and a degree ( mostly the last two ), for a firm ( big or small ) ... so yeah i know that you have to be impressive in interview and the meaning of the words you explained XD.

Well machine learning is a part of data science.

 

[DIPEA]

courera? you need to practice everyday though. coursera is all theory

Nope~ Coursera and EdX have some of the best online in-depth programming courses you can find, with challenging weekly programming assignments.

 

[Lubeckd]

Nope~ Coursera and EdX have some of the best online in-depth programming courses you can find, with challenging weekly programming assignments.

If you ever get into industry let me know which one is the most helpful

 

[DIPEA]

If you ever get into industry let me know which one is the most helpful

haha, probably neither~
both are good enough for clearing the foundation, but neither has courses for advanced topics like deterministic optimization. Those are for the degree programs. Coursera and EdX are just the teasers.