No Co-Signer for Caribbean Med School Loans

[Apollo8]

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I am in a somewhat difficult situation which I have explained in other posts. I was basically forced to withdraw from a U.S. medical school during 3rd year for academic reasons (I have ADHD and had many hang-ups along the way but I did eventually complete MS1 and MS2 and passed step1). Now I have found a Caribbean school who will accept me as a transfer student and let me finish MS3 and MS4. I am pretty confident that this is the best plan but I will need to obtain private loans for tuition and living expenses. The school facilitates a loan for tuition but I need a co-signer. I imagine I will also need a co-signer for whatever loan I find to pay for living expenses. I have pleaded my case to my parents and worked them through all the numbers but they simply will not agree to co-sign. My fiancee is just finishing her transitional year and will soon be starting a radiology residancy but I am not thinking her credit would be strong enough yet to be my co-signer. I feel like I have an opportunity to get out of the tough spot I'm in but I don't know how I can do it without someone backing me up. Any Ideas?

 

[tiedyeddog]

I am in a somewhat difficult situation which I have explained in other posts. I was basically forced to withdraw from a U.S. medical school during 3rd year for academic reasons (I have ADHD and had many hang-ups along the way but I did eventually complete MS1 and MS2 and passed step1). Now I have found a Caribbean school who will accept me as a transfer student and let me finish MS3 and MS4. I am pretty confident that this is the best plan but I will need to obtain private loans for tuition and living expenses. The school facilitates a loan for tuition but I need a co-signer. I imagine I will also need a co-signer for whatever loan I find to pay for living expenses. I have pleaded my case to my parents and worked them through all the numbers but they simply will not agree to co-sign. My fiancee is just finishing her transitional year and will soon be starting a radiology residancy but I am not thinking her credit would be strong enough yet to be my co-signer. I feel like I have an opportunity to get out of the tough spot I'm in but I don't know how I can do it without someone backing me up. Any Ideas?

Let your fiancee be your sugar momma, quit school, be a stay at home dad.

 

[Sheldor]

Let your fiancee be your sugar momma, quit school, be a stay at home dad.

This sounds like a great plan actually 🙂

Why private loans? Last I checked federal loans were available for at least some of the Caribbean schools. Plus loan, etc, don't require a cosigner.

 

[Perrotfish]

I am in a somewhat difficult situation which I have explained in other posts. I was basically forced to withdraw from a U.S. medical school during 3rd year for academic reasons (I have ADHD and had many hang-ups along the way but I did eventually complete MS1 and MS2 and passed step1). Now I have found a Caribbean school who will accept me as a transfer student and let me finish MS3 and MS4. I am pretty confident that this is the best plan but I will need to obtain private loans for tuition and living expenses. The school facilitates a loan for tuition but I need a co-signer. I imagine I will also need a co-signer for whatever loan I find to pay for living expenses. I have pleaded my case to my parents and worked them through all the numbers but they simply will not agree to co-sign. My fiancee is just finishing her transitional year and will soon be starting a radiology residancy but I am not thinking her credit would be strong enough yet to be my co-signer. I feel like I have an opportunity to get out of the tough spot I'm in but I don't know how I can do it without someone backing me up. Any Ideas?

My main idea would be not to do it. Looking over your past posts you're already drowning in debt: you have 5 years of loans and you completed 2 years of medical school. The match rates for students from the Caribbean is pretty horrific even from a top 4 Caribbean school with stellar step 1 scores and clean records. You have multiple failures and a transfer from the US to the Caribbean. Do you reaaly want to dig the hole deeper with 2 years of debt? Do you really want a co-signer, so that if this doesn't work out (again) you're dragging them down with you?

Have you talked with your fiancee with your options? Have you considered different career paths? Nursing? PT/OT? Something outside the hospital entirely? Also have you looked at doing 10 years of qualifies work to have your loans dismissed via IBR? That offer might not be around forever, the law has changed before.

 

[Bancrofti]

The match rates for students from the Caribbean is pretty horrific even from a top 4 Caribbean school with stellar step 1 scores and clean records.

False, stop spreading BS.


And OP: I think something can be said for the fact that even your parents won't cosign a loan. As much as we hate it, they tend to know best. Maybe you need to reassess what's realistic for you.

Also, if you cite extenuating circumstances then it is possible that you don't necessarily NEED a cosigner. You'll have more leeway with that type of thing agreeing to a loan set up by the school (likely with atrocious interest rates -- another reason to reconsider) than with a private loan from a US institution.

 

[Perrotfish]

False, stop spreading BS.

BS? Did you get your information about these schools from the flash ads they buy on SDN? The Img match rate was around 50% last year, which is terrible. However it actually understates the problem, because the Caribbean generally fails out their poor performers before they even hit the match. Trying to match out of the Caribbean with a history of multiple remediated years and multiple attempts at Step 1 is basically unheard of because the islands dont give you that many do overs. The match is going to be a nightmare for the OP (assuming he doesn't just fail out).

 

[Bancrofti]

You're right, the IMG match rate wasn't 50% last year. And it isn't getting worse every year, as exponentially more US students compete for a static number of residency slots. And Caribbean schools don't fail out their poor performers before they hit the match, so trying to match from the Caribbean after failing multiple years of medical school and multiple attempts at Step 1 is a really common problem that always results in a residency. My pessimism is uninfromed internet trolling. Glad you caught it.

It would be acceptable if you left it at an over-generalization and not said that the match rate for IMGs is horrible, but you also included the big 4. Now you perpetuate a stereotype that ALL Caribbean medical schools attempt to fail out weaklings so their statistics look better. I'm assuming you didn't go to a carib school, so did you get a letter from one of these schools stating that this is their procedure, or are you basing it on hearsay?

I have no problem with IMG comments, but saying one is just like any other based on overall statistics, especially for a sample group so widely varied such as Caribbean medical schools seems a bit silly at best. That's like basing my feelings on US allo schools on the Howard Medical School program.


Edit: and for the record, just want to establish I'm not actually supporting OPs decision to leave the country. I just figured I would try to actually answer his question also instead of just bashing him even more than he likely already has been.

 

[san2]

I'm sorry to hear that. But have you passed step 1? If so, I would not give up on your dream to become a doctor, and continue at any school which will allow you to do clinical rotations. If you have passed step 1 on the first attempt, you will still be eligible to apply for residency if you have done rotations and are graduating from a WHO approved medical school.

My best friend was dismissed from a US medical school also, and now is about to enter the application cycle for US residencies in pediatrics. She has done really well on Step 1 and 2 higher than most average American medical graduates including from the very school she was dismissed from, and that a lone proves that to any PD that she her knowledge base is there for her to succeed in residency. So dont give up hope contrary to what some of the other above posts are saying, and try to find a way to make this happen.

Have you looked at some of the graduate entry english polish schools? I am not sure if they accept transfers, but it maybe worth looking into. They do have financial aid available for students. One advantage Polish schools may have over this carribean school is that all polish schools are accepted by all states, including California. So consider that if you are still looking for options.

 

[san2]

as for worrying about Step 2, dont be. From what I learned from my friends experience, is that the boards can easily be self studied if given the time and dedication and motivation and have some money to spend on Kaplan resources. Your goal right now should be going to a WHO approved medical school, and one that preferable can make you go right into third year. Keep the hope up, and make sure to work out the financial aid whatever it takes.

 

[tiedyeddog]

It would be acceptable if you left it at an over-generalization and not said that the match rate for IMGs is horrible, but you also included the big 4. Now you perpetuate a stereotype that ALL Caribbean medical schools attempt to fail out weaklings so their statistics look better. I'm assuming you didn't go to a carib school, so did you get a letter from one of these schools stating that this is their procedure, or are you basing it on hearsay?

I have no problem with IMG comments, but saying one is just like any other based on overall statistics, especially for a sample group so widely varied such as Caribbean medical schools seems a bit silly at best. That's like basing my feelings on US allo schools on the Howard Medical School program.


Edit: and for the record, just want to establish I'm not actually supporting OPs decision to leave the country. I just figured I would try to actually answer his question also instead of just bashing him even more than he likely already has been.

...Ok, show us the data on how excellent the match rates at the Big 4 are. I'd like to see that data. Also, that is not a stereotype, those schools DO fail a ton of people out...

According to their federal disclosure (http://www.sgu.edu/financial-services/academic-federal-disclosure.html) only 82% graduate.

Upwards of 96% of U.S. M.D. students graduate (https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf)

Here is a random, post on Value-md stating only a little greater that 50% finish Ross. (http://www.valuemd.com/ross-univers...art-ross-ultimately-graduate.html#post1278414)

According to NRMP data, only 50% of all U.S. IMG match. (http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf)

Now, if you look at SGU or Ross's websites you will not find:

% of matriculants that graduate.
% of graduates that match.

You will find the COA, which is over 200K.

So about 20% of people who start SGU take out upwards of 25K for at least their first semester and then fail/drop out. That's not even counting those that get farther. Is SGU or Ross trying to fail people? Who knows? Are they letting people into their schools who shouldn't be there and they have a strong idea will fail. Yes. That is extremely obvious.

To get back to the O.P., e'ven if you completed your first two years at a U.S. M.D. school, I would not even consider transferring to an IMG school. There are more licensing exams to be taken and much more studying to do. With your track record what makes you think you can eventually graduate? Then, what makes you think you'll match somewhere?

Seriously, I would consider PA school or something along those lines, how much more do you need to go in debt?

 

[san2]

...Ok, show us the data on how excellent the match rates at the Big 4 are. I'd like to see that data. Also, that is not a stereotype, those schools DO fail a ton of people out...

According to their federal disclosure (http://www.sgu.edu/financial-services/academic-federal-disclosure.html) only 82% graduate.

Upwards of 96% of U.S. M.D. students graduate (https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf)

Here is a random, post on Value-md stating only a little greater that 50% finish Ross. (http://www.valuemd.com/ross-univers...art-ross-ultimately-graduate.html#post1278414)

According to NRMP data, only 50% of all U.S. IMG match. (http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf)

Now, if you look at SGU or Ross's websites you will not find:

% of matriculants that graduate.
% of graduates that match.

You will find the COA, which is over 200K.

So about 20% of people who start SGU take out upwards of 25K for at least their first semester and then fail/drop out. That's not even counting those that get farther. Is SGU or Ross trying to fail people? Who knows? Are they letting people into their schools who shouldn't be there and they have a strong idea will fail. Yes. That is extremely obvious.

To get back to the O.P., e'ven if you completed your first two years at a U.S. M.D. school, I would not even consider transferring to an IMG school. There are more licensing exams to be taken and much more studying to do. With your track record what makes you think you can eventually graduate? Then, what makes you think you'll match somewhere?

Seriously, I would consider PA school or something along those lines, how much more do you need to go in debt?

im sorry but I disagree with your advice for the OP. What additional licensing exams? Step 2? Well yes, everyone including american medical graduates have to take it. More studying to do? I think the boards are mostly self study and not very dependent on what school you go based on my girlfriends experience. Worried about graduating? International schools at least in Poland have a much lower standards of graduation then american medical schools, and frankly some should maybe not become doctors but they graduate anyways. Its based completely on self-motivation, and there are some kids just this year who graduated from the graduate entry medical program at Poland and matched into residencies in the US.

The consensus I am seeing is that if you have passed Step 1, Step 2, have clinical exposure and go to a WHO approved medical school and you apply broadly far and wide, you WILL get a residency spot. If you somehow dont, then you can maybe work in research in a department you maybe interested in for a year, and reapply, and chances are that very same department will take you if all the above requirements are met.

Therefore the OP should def not give up any hopes of attending medical school, and should try his best to somehow get financial aid by any means to be able to attend a international medical school. To the OP, my suggestion is to contact some of the Polish medical schools on Monday and see if they allow 3rd year transfers into their graduate entry english medical program. I can PM you the contact information of my friend there who Im sure would be able to give you some advice if you want it

 

[san2]

you may want to look at this website, and may want to contact the schools further

http://www.hopemedicaleducation.com/academics_affiliates.html

 

[tiedyeddog]

im sorry but I disagree with your advice for the OP. What additional licensing exams? Step 2? Well yes, everyone including american medical graduates have to take it. More studying to do? I think the boards are mostly self study and not very dependent on what school you go based on my girlfriends experience. Worried about graduating? International schools at least in Poland have a much lower standards of graduation then american medical schools, and frankly some should maybe not become doctors but they graduate anyways. Its based completely on self-motivation, and there are some kids just this year who graduated from the graduate entry medical program at Poland and matched into residencies in the US.

The consensus I am seeing is that if you have passed Step 1, Step 2, have clinical exposure and go to a WHO approved medical school and you apply broadly far and wide, you WILL get a residency spot. If you somehow dont, then you can maybe work in research in a department you maybe interested in for a year, and reapply, and chances are that very same department will take you if all the above requirements are met.

Therefore the OP should def not give up any hopes of attending medical school, and should try his best to somehow get financial aid by any means to be able to attend a international medical school. To the OP, my suggestion is to contact some of the Polish medical schools on Monday and see if they allow 3rd year transfers into their graduate entry english medical program. I can PM you the contact information of my friend there who Im sure would be able to give you some advice if you want it

Where did you get the consensus from? I assure you that is not true. There are even certain amounts of U.S. M.D. grads who don't find spots, albiet very, very low.

Two points:
1. Most of the preclinical years are "self-study". I don't know what you mean by that, but no matter where you go to school, at some point you have to sit down and cram this stuff in your head. No one does it for you.
2. Guy failed out AFTER step 1. So, he was in the clinics. If he can't pass a clinical rotation what makes you think he can be a functional resident?!

I mean, the track record says it all....

Anyway, I don't know jack about Polish schools. Do you need to know Polish to go to a Polish medical school?! Does the O.P. know Polish? How is he going to get money to go to a Polish school? I am pretty sure U.S. loans won't cover that....

Can't comment more on Polish schools that but the Caribbean seems like an awful way to go, ignoring the fact O.P. can't get the money needed to go.

 

[Perrotfish]

The consensus I am seeing is that if you have passed Step 1, Step 2, have clinical exposure and go to a WHO approved medical school and you apply broadly far and wide, you WILL get a residency spot. If you somehow dont, then you can maybe work in research in a department you maybe interested in for a year, and reapply, and chances are that very same department will take you if all the above requirements are met.
it

I'm not sure where you got this 'consensus' but 100% of the the IMGs who have that 50% match rate have passed both steps and have clinical exposure, since that's what you need to apply. I don't think the problem is that half of them had really narrow or overly optimistic applications. Also every year you spend away from school ge nerally makes matching harder, not easier.

 

[san2]

Where did you get the consensus from? I assure you that is not true. There are even certain amounts of U.S. M.D. grads who don't find spots, albiet very, very low.

Two points:
1. Most of the preclinical years are "self-study". I don't know what you mean by that, but no matter where you go to school, at some point you have to sit down and cram this stuff in your head. No one does it for you.
2. Guy failed out AFTER step 1. So, he was in the clinics. If he can't pass a clinical rotation what makes you think he can be a functional resident?!

I mean, the track record says it all....

Anyway, I don't know jack about Polish schools. Do you need to know Polish to go to a Polish medical school?! Does the O.P. know Polish? How is he going to get money to go to a Polish school? I am pretty sure U.S. loans won't cover that....

Can't comment more on Polish schools that but the Caribbean seems like an awful way to go, ignoring the fact O.P. can't get the money needed to go.

No you do not need Polish. All the instruction and teaching is done in English. These programs are designed for international students wanting to study medicine in Poland. And there are loans that do cover polish medical school expenses, if you apply through an agency here.

As I said, US medical standards are super high, and those standards are nowhere near as high in Poland. Yet many graduate each year from Polish medical schools, end up in residency in the US, and do just fine.

Residency is a different ballgame then medical school.

 

[san2]

Where did you get the consensus from? I assure you that is not true. There are even certain amounts of U.S. M.D. grads who don't find spots, albiet very, very low.

Two points:
1. Most of the preclinical years are "self-study". I don't know what you mean by that, but no matter where you go to school, at some point you have to sit down and cram this stuff in your head. No one does it for you.
2. Guy failed out AFTER step 1. So, he was in the clinics. If he can't pass a clinical rotation what makes you think he can be a functional resident?!

I mean, the track record says it all....

Anyway, I don't know jack about Polish schools. Do you need to know Polish to go to a Polish medical school?! Does the O.P. know Polish? How is he going to get money to go to a Polish school? I am pretty sure U.S. loans won't cover that....

Can't comment more on Polish schools that but the Caribbean seems like an awful way to go, ignoring the fact O.P. can't get the money needed to go.

and thats the general consensus at least in these english programs in Poland medical schools. Pass Step 1 and 2 on FIRST attempt, clinicals and get lors from your clinical professors in Poland, and most importantly than apply wide and broad. I think the students who applied through the match from my friends school, there was an 86% match rate this year. And one student who had not matched last year, did research in a department he was interested in after graduation, and matched into that department this year.

To the OP, continue your medical education.

 

[Lbgem]

Where did you get the consensus from? I assure you that is not true. There are even certain amounts of U.S. M.D. grads who don't find spots, albiet very, very low.

Two points:
1. Most of the preclinical years are "self-study". I don't know what you mean by that, but no matter where you go to school, at some point you have to sit down and cram this stuff in your head. No one does it for you.
2. Guy failed out AFTER step 1. So, he was in the clinics. If he can't pass a clinical rotation what makes you think he can be a functional resident?!

I mean, the track record says it all....

Anyway, I don't know jack about Polish schools. Do you need to know Polish to go to a Polish medical school?! Does the O.P. know Polish? How is he going to get money to go to a Polish school? I am pretty sure U.S. loans won't cover that....

Can't comment more on Polish schools that but the Caribbean seems like an awful way to go, ignoring the fact O.P. can't get the money needed to go.

No, you don't need to know Polish (unless you want to stay and practice there). There's a specific medical program for English speaking students. And gradplus loans will cover it as long as the school is approved.

OP, grad plus loans don't need a cosigner. I also hope you know what you're doing. Fix whatever went wrong before. And for your sake, I hope you have a really really strong relationship with your radiology wife before you go MIA for a few years.

 

[Bancrofti]

...Ok, show us the data on how excellent the match rates at the Big 4 are. I'd like to see that data. Also, that is not a stereotype, those schools DO fail a ton of people out...

According to their federal disclosure (http://www.sgu.edu/financial-services/academic-federal-disclosure.html) only 82% graduate.

I hate going back and forth. If I'm wrong that's cool, if I'm right that's cool, and in some cases arguments never get anywhere. However, I stopped reading your post after I clicked your link and you tried to pass off an on time completion rate as an attrition rate. 82.6% of their students don't finish on time, which just means up to 17.4% have to repeat a class, not that they drop out. For such a "****" school, considering the fact that >18% of their students are NOT from the US, and considering that they admit an extraordinary amount of students each term, I'd actually say that having 82.6% of 500+ students graduate on time pretty damn good... residency matches on the other hand is a different story. Though I've seen a number for SGU students specifically being 77-80%.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I hate going back and forth. If I'm wrong that's cool, if I'm right that's cool, and in some cases arguments never get anywhere. However, I stopped reading your post after I clicked your link and you tried to pass off an on time completion rate as an attrition rate. 82.6% of their students don't finish on time, which just means up to 17.4% have to repeat a class, not that they drop out. For such a "****" school, considering the fact that >18% of their students are NOT from the US, and considering that they admit an extraordinary amount of students each term, I'd actually say that having 82.6% of 500+ students graduate on time pretty damn good... residency matches on the other hand is a different story. Though I've seen a number for SGU students specifically being 77-80%.

Alright, fine, maybe 100% graduate eventually. Who cares if they can't find match spots? It's only going to get worse as more U.S. M.D. schools open and more D.O. schools open. It'd be better if those people did fail out/were kicked out. Then they wouldn't end up with a worthless degree they paid 200K+ for.

Also, if no one has any idea what percentage of people match from those schools, which no one does because the schools don't give out those numbers, then why is it a good idea to go ahead and throw 200K at the school and hope for a match spot? In my eyes the big four are no better than any other IMG school if they don't give data to back themselves up.

 

[Bancrofti]

Alright, fine, maybe 100% graduate. Who cares if they can't find match spots? It's only going to get worst as more U.S. M.D. schools open and more D.O. schools open. It'd be better if those people did fail out/were kicked out, then they wouldn't end up with a worthless degree they paid 200K+ for.

One way or another people will find ways to complain about IMGs and the schools they come from. Whether you go to west bumblefuk medical college or Harvard, if you excel, you will be fine. Find me a US citizen who graduated from an international medical school with a 240 plus on their first try, not trying to get in to derm or plastics who didn't match at all, and I will join in on all the IMG bashing.

We know the potential outlook, but an 80% chance of matching for some people who truly want it is better than the 0% chance you get by not trying. The OP has a fiancee who is a resident and parents who won't cosign a loan for him so it is clear people have already tried to talk sense in to him. It's likely he'll have a very tough time matching given his dismissal and academic history, but if OP doesn't match it won't be because his degree isn't from the US. Likewise, for the people who don't graduate or match from the major carib schools, the problem isn't the name on the degree, but with the competency of the person who holds it.

 

[tiedyeddog]

One way or another people will find ways to complain about IMGs and the schools they come from. Whether you go to west bumblefuk medical college or Harvard, if you excel, you will be fine. Find me a US citizen who graduated from an international medical school with a 240 plus on their first try, not trying to get in to derm or plastics who didn't match at all, and I will join in on all the IMG bashing.

We know the potential outlook, but an 80% chance of matching for some people who truly want it is better than the 0% chance you get by not trying. The OP has a fiancee who is a resident and parents who won't cosign a loan for him so it is clear people have already tried to talk sense in to him. It's likely he'll have a very tough time matching given his dismissal and academic history, but if OP doesn't match it won't be because his degree isn't from the US. Likewise, for the people who don't graduate or match from the major carib schools, the problem isn't the name on the degree, but with the competency of the person who holds it.

Yeah, totally disagree with the highlighted part. Why do people who barely pass step I at US M.D. schools get into residencies and I am betting most people who barely pass step at Carib schools don't..... People who have equal competency but only one set actually matches?

You're trying to tell me there isn't a bias against Caribbean students? Caribbean students have to break a 240 just to match in the boonies of Wyoming in family practice and you're trying to say the name on the degree doesn't matter? How does that make any sense?

 

[san2]

One way or another people will find ways to complain about IMGs and the schools they come from. Whether you go to west bumblefuk medical college or Harvard, if you excel, you will be fine. Find me a US citizen who graduated from an international medical school with a 240 plus on their first try, not trying to get in to derm or plastics who didn't match at all, and I will join in on all the IMG bashing.

We know the potential outlook, but an 80% chance of matching for some people who truly want it is better than the 0% chance you get by not trying. The OP has a fiancee who is a resident and parents who won't cosign a loan for him so it is clear people have already tried to talk sense in to him. It's likely he'll have a very tough time matching given his dismissal and academic history, but if OP doesn't match it won't be because his degree isn't from the US. Likewise, for the people who don't graduate or match from the major carib schools, the problem isn't the name on the degree, but with the competency of the person who holds it.

i still think he will match if he passes step 2, does well on his clinical rotations, and obtains lor's and maybe some research experience

 

[san2]

Yeah, totally disagree with the highlighted part. Why do people who barely pass step I at US M.D. schools get into residencies and I am betting most people who barely pass step at Carib schools don't..... People who have equal competency but only one set actually matches?

You're trying to tell me there isn't a bias against Caribbean students? Caribbean students have to break a 240 just to match in the boonies of Wyoming in family practice and you're trying to say the name on the degree doesn't matter? How does that make any sense?

and thats not true about having the 240 for imgs to match into family med. just this year, one of the american students in a polish med school matched into an radiology residency with a 250 in Wisconsin and had no connections other than a true desire to do radiology and showing interest in the various programs he applied to .

 

[Makati2008]

and thats not true about having the 240 for imgs to match into family med. just this year, one of the american students in a polish med school matched into an radiology residency with a 250 in Wisconsin and had no connections other than a true desire to do radiology and showing interest in the various programs he applied to .

So I am going to be the one to ask. Do you attend this school or work for them? Because I have a ton of friends in med school and I don't nearly know the intricate details Bout their school as you do?

 

[Morsetlis]

So about 20% of people who start SGU take out upwards of 25K for at least their first semester and then fail/drop out. That's not even counting those that get farther. Is SGU or Ross trying to fail people? Who knows? Are they letting people into their schools who shouldn't be there and they have a strong idea will fail. Yes. That is extremely obvious.

I don't know about Ross, but SGU does not intentionally fail people. There is a "standard". Most courses only use exam scores to grade you, plus a 1-3% "curve" from quizzes, labs, and challenged questions. If you fail a midterm in one course, you are given the options to decelerate and retake that class in the next semester for free (of course, room and board is not free), and you can do this twice. If you have <70% in a course that is under 4 units, you may take a completion exam at the beginning of the next semester (which is cumulative, and harder). If you fail a class, but your OVERALL average is above 75%, you will not be dismissed. But they will require you to repeat the failed class (and you can only take that one course) in the following semester.

The enrollment of the class is HUGE, but note that there are also a lot of Caribbean enrollment now, too. Furthermore, many Canadian students and a lot of other students, for whatever reasons, do NOT use Federal loans: they take out their own private loans. That, of course, does not offset the fact that each entering class is several times over an average US medical school's class size, but it does leave you to ponder that debt %.

That said, I would not recommend SGU, or any Caribbean school, if you have a better option, and that's only because of the residency spots crunch (10 years ago, I wouldn't have this reservation). Why do you not try to transfer into another US medical school's 2nd, or 3rd year class?

 

[gravitywave]

Primary problem here as i see it is that nowhere in any of his threads has OP clearly articulated what he will do differently in order to be successful once back in med school, in the islands or otherwise. Without this, the rest is moot.

Whether or not going back to finish at a Caribbean school makes sense has a lot more to do with what changes OP is going to make in terms of his approach to the work than it does with the overall merits of trying to match from offshore with a Step failure and an AMG school withdrawal on his record. It honestly sounds to me as though the plan is "I just need another chance," when that's exactly the attitude that got him here in the first place.

 

[san2]

Primary problem here as i see it is that nowhere in any of his threads has OP clearly articulated what he will do differently in order to be successful once back in med school, in the islands or otherwise. Without this, the rest is moot.

Whether or not going back to finish at a Caribbean school makes sense has a lot more to do with what changes OP is going to make in terms of his approach to the work than it does with the overall merits of trying to match from offshore with a Step failure and an AMG school withdrawal on his record. It honestly sounds to me as though the plan is "I just need another chance," when that's exactly the attitude that got him here in the first place.

The OP never said he failed any of the Steps. Now that I think changes the ballgame if indeed he failed a Step. Then chances of matching seem really slim and he may want to consider another career. I was under the assumption he passed step 1 on the first attempt.

 

[tiedyeddog]

The OP never said he failed any of the Steps. Now that I think changes the ballgame if indeed he failed a Step. Then chances of matching seem really slim and he may want to consider another career. I was under the assumption he passed step 1 on the first attempt.

Why are you so convinced his past history won't make a difference in his future classwork? It took him 4.5 years to do 2.1 years of medical school.

Are you in residency or a medical student, just wondering?

 

[docnotsopc]

Why are you so convinced his past history won't make a difference in his future classwork? It took him 4.5 years to do 2.1 years of medical school.

Are you in residency or a medical student, just wondering?

👍

 

[san2]

Why are you so convinced his past history won't make a difference in his future classwork? It took him 4.5 years to do 2.1 years of medical school.

Are you in residency or a medical student, just wondering?

Well my gf was dismissed from a US medical school, and now is entering her fourth year at a polish medical school about to apply to different peds residencies. I myself am in a third year in a DO school here in the same state of my gf's previous medical school.

If he passed Step 1 and if he can pass Step 2 on his first attempt, he has shown he has the knowledge base to able to succeed in residency. Thats why these exams are there. To pass these exams is an indication that one has met the minimum knowledge competencies needed to be an successful physician going into residency training.

Now in the scenario of my gf, she was dismissed from the medical school because she failed anatomy twice, and histology once, and biochemistry once. She says that her medical school in the US was taught by PhD's who went into way more detail than any of the Kaplan board prep books went into, and just found the lecture powerpoints overwhelming with information and she failed and was dismissed.

Now in Poland, she found that if she knew the Kaplan lecture series books well enough, she passed the in class exams as over there all students need to know is the big picture to pass the class contrary to the med school she was previously enrolled at where the exams were filled with tiny details from the lecture powerpoints handed to the students. The students who fail in Poland, simply do not study ever. And thats why she has told me countless times, the standards to succeed in an American Medical school are way higher than the standards to succeed in Poland.

Now the fact that she had exposure to the Kaplan lecture series books for 2 years while she was studying for her preclinical subjets, and then studied 3 months dedicated for Step 1, definetly helped her tremendously when she took Step 1. She did about 20 points higher than the average medical student in her previous school. Clinical rotations in Poland are pretty much a joke, and so she had a lot of time to study Kaplan for Step 2 and did extremely well on that. Her CS she did find difficult, but she passed that and thats all that matters. Now she is about to apply to residency, and she feels more than ready for it.

 

[Kaputt]

Well my gf was dismissed from a US medical school, and now is entering her fourth year at a polish medical school about to apply to different peds residencies. I myself am in a third year in a DO school here in the same state of my gf's previous medical school.

If he passed Step 1 and if he can pass Step 2 on his first attempt, he has shown he has the knowledge base to able to succeed in residency. Thats why these exams are there. To pass these exams is an indication that one has met the minimum knowledge competencies needed to be an successful physician going into residency training.

Now in the scenario of my gf, she was dismissed from the medical school because she failed anatomy twice, and histology once, and biochemistry once. She says that her medical school in the US was taught by PhD's who went into way more detail than any of the Kaplan board prep books went into, and just found the lecture powerpoints overwhelming with information and she failed and was dismissed.

Now in Poland, she found that if she knew the Kaplan lecture series books well enough, she passed the in class exams as over there all students need to know is the big picture to pass the class contrary to the med school she was previously enrolled at. The students who fail in Poland, simply do not study ever. And thats why she has told me countless times, the standards to succeed in an American Medical school are way higher than the standards to succeed in Poland.

Now the fact that she had exposure to the Kaplan lecture series books for 2 years, and then studied 3 months dedicated for Step 1, definetly helped her tremendously when she took Step 1. She did about 20 points higher than the average medical student in her previous school. Clinical rotations in Poland are pretty much a joke, and so she had a lot of time to study Kaplan for Step 2 and did extremely well on that. Her CS she did find difficult, but she passed that and thats all that matters. Now she is about to apply to residency, and she feels more than ready for it.

*Warning signs*

 

[san2]

*Warning signs*

how are those warning signs? Passing the step 1 and 2 on FIRST ATTEMPT, written by experts in the medical fields, is an indication that one is ready for residency. Thats why these exams are there in the first place. They are licensing exams, designed to ensure that physicians have a certain knowledge base to succeed in residency and become reliable physicians. That is the main purpose of these exams.

True now it also matters how well you do on the Steps when competing for different residencies, but thats a different ballgame. Simply passing the Steps has indicated to all medical boards, that one has the knowledge to become a successful reliable physician.

 

[DrMom]

how are those warning signs? Passing the step 1 and 2 on FIRST ATTEMPT, written by experts in the medical fields, is an indication that one is ready for residency.

No, they are an indication of application of book knowledge and meet at least a minimum threshold of knowledge. They do not mean that someone can actually function well in a clinical setting.

 

[ckdgusdl88]

I wouldn't cross off your fiancee as a potential co-signer. I've heard personal anecdotes of people who had their parents be their co-signers even though their parents had low credit. It depends... if she already graduated med school her credit history must be quite long - didn't she get her frist credit card in college?

Now, the whole issue of whether it is actually worth going to a Carib med school in your case is a whole another issue. I'm sorry to say this, but you having flunked out an American medical school because you couldn't keep up with clinical rotations is HUGE red flag. Best of luck with everything.

 

[gravitywave]

The OP never said he failed any of the Steps. Now that I think changes the ballgame if indeed he failed a Step. Then chances of matching seem really slim and he may want to consider another career. I was under the assumption he passed step 1 on the first attempt.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12366700&postcount=60

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12382449&postcount=1

 

[san2]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12366700&postcount=60

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12382449&postcount=1

yea i think bigger than the academic dismissal, will be the fact that the OP failed Step 1 for residency PD's. But he passed the second time, and while thats no where near as good as getting it over on the first attempt, technically he can still continue, if he gets clinicals done, passes step 2, and graduates from a WHO approved med school. I would keep going

 

[tiedyeddog]

Well my gf was dismissed from a US medical school, and now is entering her fourth year at a polish medical school about to apply to different peds residencies. I myself am in a third year in a DO school here in the same state of my gf's previous medical school.

If he passed Step 1 and if he can pass Step 2 on his first attempt, he has shown he has the knowledge base to able to succeed in residency. Thats why these exams are there. To pass these exams is an indication that one has met the minimum knowledge competencies needed to be an successful physician going into residency training.

Now in the scenario of my gf, she was dismissed from the medical school because she failed anatomy twice, and histology once, and biochemistry once. She says that her medical school in the US was taught by PhD's who went into way more detail than any of the Kaplan board prep books went into, and just found the lecture powerpoints overwhelming with information and she failed and was dismissed.

Now in Poland, she found that if she knew the Kaplan lecture series books well enough, she passed the in class exams as over there all students need to know is the big picture to pass the class contrary to the med school she was previously enrolled at where the exams were filled with tiny details from the lecture powerpoints handed to the students. The students who fail in Poland, simply do not study ever. And thats why she has told me countless times, the standards to succeed in an American Medical school are way higher than the standards to succeed in Poland.

Now the fact that she had exposure to the Kaplan lecture series books for 2 years while she was studying for her preclinical subjets, and then studied 3 months dedicated for Step 1, definetly helped her tremendously when she took Step 1. She did about 20 points higher than the average medical student in her previous school. Clinical rotations in Poland are pretty much a joke, and so she had a lot of time to study Kaplan for Step 2 and did extremely well on that. Her CS she did find difficult, but she passed that and thats all that matters. Now she is about to apply to residency, and she feels more than ready for it.

Ok, I am done in this thread after this post. I just want to say three things:

1. O.P. did fail step one once. There are two more steps to pass and boards, if his speciality requires it. It really seems like to me you're pushing some kind pipe dream on the O.P. If you want to feed his pipe dreams, go for it but I don't see where your sense of optimism is coming from. The fact that he failed out AFTER starting clinicals is a HUGE warning sign.

2. Being able to memorize the details only required for step 1 won't make you a functioning physician. If your only knowledge base is the bare minimum required to pass step 1 then I would guess you're in for a world of hurt some where down the line and that hurt is going to be passed on down to patients.

3. The self responsibility required to pass 3rd year clinicals isn't going to be less than that required in residency/being an attending. Even if O.P. could match somewhere doesn't mean he should become a physician, I am trying to be as non-hurtful about this I can be. This, from my perspective, just seems to be the cold, hard truth.

 

[Apollo8]

I didn't really think this would turn into a back-and-forth thing about stats but some of your comments got me thinking and I'll jump in with this piece of information. I found the composite photograph of my matriculating medical school class (a U.S. M.D. program and a state university in fact, though not a state you would ever want to live in). There were 116 students who started in 2007, including myself. I know for a fact only 83 of the original 116 graduated in four years (thankfully my fiancee was one of them). I have taken the 2 MD/PhD'ers out of the previous equation. I can also state as fact that to this date, only 86 of the original 116 have graduated. My previous school would always quote some insanely low number as the attrition rate but the fact of the matter is that less than 3/4 of my matriculating class now calls themselves "doctor".

There are people I started with that I now see are still enrolled as part of the c/o 2013 and even the c/o 2014! this makes me think I should have tried harder at my old school to have them let me stick around until I was done there. Oh well.

I don't really know where this fits into the argument. Maybe I am just trying to say that stats from US programs might not always be calculated in the manor that you would assume. Maybe something to keep in mind when comparing foreign school stats to U.S. Stats. I'm not really trying to make a point, I was just surprised when I realized how many of my original class didn't make it. I wonder if this is common among U.S. schools. I always felt as though I had done a big injustice to myself by going there instead of some other places I was accepted (decision was made so that my fiancee and I could go to school together). As disappointed as I am to be in this predicament, not being part of that institution any longer actually makes me feel good.

It is what it is though, and I am going to stop at nothing to finish what I started. The hurdle now is coming up with money and some of you already gave me some more ideas to check in to. Thanks!

 

[san2]

I didn't really think this would turn into a back-and-forth thing about stats but some of your comments got me thinking and I'll jump in with this piece of information. I found the composite photograph of my matriculating medical school class (a U.S. M.D. program and a state university in fact, though not a state you would ever want to live in). There were 116 students who started in 2007, including myself. I know for a fact only 83 of the original 116 graduated in four years (thankfully my fiancee was one of them). I have taken the 2 MD/PhD'ers out of the previous equation. I can also state as fact that to this date, only 86 of the original 116 have graduated. My previous school would always quote some insanely low number as the attrition rate but the fact of the matter is that less than 3/4 of my matriculating class now calls themselves "doctor".

There are people I started with that I now see are still enrolled as part of the c/o 2013 and even the c/o 2014! this makes me think I should have tried harder at my old school to have them let me stick around until I was done there. Oh well.

I don't really know where this fits into the argument. Maybe I am just trying to say that stats from US programs might not always be calculated in the manor that you would assume. Maybe something to keep in mind when comparing foreign school stats to U.S. Stats. I'm not really trying to make a point, I was just surprised when I realized how many of my original class didn't make it. I wonder if this is common among U.S. schools. I always felt as though I had done a big injustice to myself by going there instead of some other places I was accepted (decision was made so that my fiancee and I could go to school together). As disappointed as I am to be in this predicament, not being part of that institution any longer actually makes me feel good.

It is what it is though, and I am going to stop at nothing to finish what I started. The hurdle now is coming up with money and some of you already gave me some more ideas to check in to. Thanks!

In my gf's case, the medical school she was dismissed from, just had a very difficult curriculum and tests were never ending throughout the semester. Thankfully the DO school I am in is very manageable, but that tells me that maybe students need to look at curriculums of the medical schools before deciding which medical school they want to enroll in.

She is also very happy that she left her school and went to Poland. There she excelled, and she is just super ecstatic to now to be able to apply to different pediatric residency programs. She has always wanted to become a pediatric cardiologist, and this dream was nearly crushed when she was dismissed from her school. but look where she is now. She is in the midst of applying, and she may actually get into a peds program in her state of Florida hopefully. Gl to you and hope it works out for you

 

[link2swim06]

One way or another people will find ways to complain about IMGs and the schools they come from. Whether you go to west bumblefuk medical college or Harvard, if you excel, you will be fine. Find me a US citizen who graduated from an international medical school with a 240 plus on their first try, not trying to get in to derm or plastics who didn't match at all, and I will join in on all the IMG bashing.

We know the potential outlook, but an 80% chance of matching for some people who truly want it is better than the 0% chance you get by not trying. The OP has a fiancee who is a resident and parents who won't cosign a loan for him so it is clear people have already tried to talk sense in to him. It's likely he'll have a very tough time matching given his dismissal and academic history, but if OP doesn't match it won't be because his degree isn't from the US. Likewise, for the people who don't graduate or match from the major carib schools, the problem isn't the name on the degree, but with the competency of the person who holds it.

Hahaha....not anymore.

Its 2012, people starting now in a carib school will match nowhere close to that rate.

Its idiotic for anyone to start in a Carribean med school now...but whatever. People love to quote antidotes/stats from the 1990s and 2000 era about carib grads. The door is quickly slamming shut to any IMG.

The OP has basically a 0% chance of matching with his past and the rapidly decreasing number of spots for IMGs/FMGs.

OP, it would be better to reapply to US schools (md or do) or to pursue another career at this point.

 

[Law2Doc]

... I think the students who applied through the match from my friends school, there was an 86% match rate this year....

yes but what was the attrition rate before you got to that point, if I run a school, fail out half the class and then the remaining class matches, is it a 100% match rate or 50%? when comparing to US schools, where pretty much no one fails out, it's 50%, sorry. And that's how the offshore schools take advantage of folks. Sure many of the folks WHO SURVIVE THE CUTS do okay, but that's simply not a big percentage if the total initial class to start with. Many programs have internal hurdles you must pass such that a large percentage of the class doesn't graduate in 4 years as well. Suffice it to say when you factor in these other issues you don't have in the US, the match rate that doesn't appear in the ads us really, really poor.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

On a risky investment scale, I'd say that co-signing six figures in Caribbean med school debt for a person who failed Step I and was previously dismissed from medical school ranks just ahead of wiring money to that Nigerian king.

 

[Oxer45]

I still dont get why the OP cant take federal loans. I've met people who went to crib schools and all of the took govt loans to pay for it. Last time I took Direct loan/stafford/FEFL loans, they didnt ask for my credit score, so that shouldnt be an issue. I know that there is a max for subsidized stafford, but for direct loan, I dont think there is a max.

 

[genswim24]

This is all speculation, but it appears that the OP has been to med school for over 4 years. I am assuming he has taken out loans the entire time. At one point in time, there was a limit to how much you could take out through federal loans. 4+ years of med school could certainly cause a person to reach their maximum amount. This law may not be in place any more, but I know it was around when I first applied for med school loans. Maybe the OP could shed light on the federal loan aspect.

 

[Apollo8]

My understanding is that federal loans do max out at a certain point. I would have reached that point during 4th year had I remained at my old medical school. My options would then be to appeal for more federal aid or take a private loan to finish.

I am not sure whether fed aid is available at some caribbean medical schools. I am sure it is not available for the particular caribbean school that has accepted me and where I plan to go.

 

[shinbeats]

On a risky investment scale, I'd say that co-signing six figures in Caribbean med school debt for a person who failed Step I and was previously dismissed from medical school ranks just ahead of wiring money to that Nigerian king.

Lol you just made me smile for the first time today thanks!

 

[Kaputt]

how are those warning signs? Passing the step 1 and 2 on FIRST ATTEMPT, written by experts in the medical fields, is an indication that one is ready for residency. Thats why these exams are there in the first place. They are licensing exams, designed to ensure that physicians have a certain knowledge base to succeed in residency and become reliable physicians. That is the main purpose of these exams.

Passing Steps 1 and 2 =/= clinical competency. If it did, why would there even be clerkships? The warning signs I bolded would be that if it is so easy to skate through the clinical rotations in a Polish med school, it makes you wonder if you're actually building your skills or not.

How could lower academic standards ever be a good thing? I mean no offense by this of course.

 

[Suncrusher]

She is also very happy that she left her school and went to Poland. There she excelled, and she is just super ecstatic to now to be able to apply to different pediatric residency programs. She has always wanted to become a pediatric cardiologist, and this dream was nearly crushed when she was dismissed from her school. but look where she is now. She is in the midst of applying, and she may actually get into a peds program in her state of Florida hopefully. Gl to you and hope it works out for you

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of the details:

there are some big reasons why your gf is in a much stronger position than OP. Sure she had problems in med school at first, but when she fixed those problems and started over, she went through the whole thing just fine and scored 240 on step 1 on her first try. Then she did fine in her 3rd year and has a 260 on Step 2. She is now a strong IMG candidate out of Poland. To me that sounds like the pattern of someone who maybe wasn't ready to start med school at first, but she prepared, started again, and rocked it.

In contrast, OP has said in other threads that he has had academic problems every step of the way, failed step 1 the first time, and is transferring as a third year to a caribbean school. To me his narrative comes off as much more flimsy...

Anyway, that was just a side-bar about the whole Poland/Caribbean thing. It sounds like OP has already made up his mind about what to do since he is no longer asking advice about what to do and is now asking about how to get loans to fund what he has already decided to do.

 

[san2]

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of the details:

there are some big reasons why your gf is in a much stronger position than OP. Sure she had problems in med school at first, but when she fixed those problems and started over, she went through the whole thing just fine and scored 240 on step 1 on her first try. Then she did fine in her 3rd year and has a 260 on Step 2. She is now a strong IMG candidate out of Poland. To me that sounds like the pattern of someone who maybe wasn't ready to start med school at first, but she prepared, started again, and rocked it.

In contrast, OP has said in other threads that he has had academic problems every step of the way, failed step 1 the first time, and is transferring as a third year to a caribbean school. To me his narrative comes off as much more flimsy...

Anyway, that was just a side-bar about the whole Poland/Caribbean thing. It sounds like OP has already made up his mind about what to do since he is no longer asking advice about what to do and is now asking about how to get loans to fund what he has already decided to do.

agreed. she simply wasnt ready for the rigorous curriculum at her us med school, but then started over in an environment where she felt fully comfortable, and excelled.

The reason why polish rotations are much easier than us rotations, is because in poland after her schooling, a lot of her fellow students will be joining house-man ship job for 2 years before they go into their speciality residencies they are interested in in Poland. A house-man ship job is basically equivalent to a little harder version of an internal med rotation here. 3rd year in Poland clinical clerkships is more like physical exam taking and shadowing but not much hands on exposure

 

[nampa1]

I concur--other schools fudge the numbers too. I heard of an allied health school that mentions that only 4 percent fails out, but it doesn't mention people leaving for 'other' reasons, which was heavily encouraged to keep the school's stats up. Still, I'm surprised a state school has such poor numbers. I assumed they felt they had some responsibility (yeah right).