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New bill in Missouri house aims to let medical graduates that failed to get a residency practice primary care in underserved areas as fully licensed "Assistant Physicians"

As long as the candidate has graduated medical school and passed step I & II they can practice primary care in underserved areas.

What could possibly go wrong.

Missouri targets doctor dearth, expands first-in-nation law

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New bill in Missouri house aims to let medical graduates that failed to get a residency practice primary care in underserved areas as fully licensed "Assistant Physicians"

As long as the candidate has graduated medical school and passed step I & II they can practice primary care in underserved areas.

What could possibly go wrong.

Missouri targets doctor dearth, expands first-in-nation law
I mean, would you rather have NPs practicing in those areas?
 
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I mean, would you rather have NPs practicing in those areas?

*edit*

I missed the line that stated these graduates would need physician supervision. My mistake. This bill is a good thing.
 
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"Assistant physician" vs "Physician Assistant"... Think of all the future threads/debates
 
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As someone who is going to be in residency, I do not mind this. I'd rather be treated by an assistant physician than a NP.
 
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At least their training involves hands-on patient contact.

The common knowledge on these boards is that you actually learn to be a doc during residency.

I severely doubt the ability of Caribbean grads to give even remotely acceptable care.

Further, Now that a new class of licensed "assistant doctors" has been created, whose to say they won't try to expand the category to save on costs?
It worked for the NP Lobby.
I would personally think that the two years of rotations is more hands on experience compared to online programs with 500hours of figure the rotation out yourself np school. There is an underserved population , pick your poison NP or MD without residency.
 
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I would personally think that the two years of rotations is more hands on experience compared to online programs with 500hours of figure the rotation out yourself no school. There is an underserved population , pick your poison NP or MD without residency.
You can get an NP online??
 
New bill in Missouri house aims to let medical graduates that failed to get a residency practice primary care in underserved areas as fully licensed "Assistant Physicians"

As long as the candidate has graduated medical school and passed step I & II they can practice primary care in underserved areas.

What could possibly go wrong.

Missouri targets doctor dearth, expands first-in-nation law
So?

They will have the same practice rights as Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners.

This should be the law in all fifty states. But the AMA and the other shill groups will oppose it because then some graduates will forgo residency altogether and just jump into a $100K+ primary care job working functionally as a PA or NP. It will be a small percentage of course, but even 2% of graduates becoming so-called Assistant Physicians would be a nightmare for the corrupt AMA and AAMC. Would create big problems for entities that rely on grossly underpaid residents.

Potentially it will create upward pressure on resident wages, forcing individual hospitals to actually give residents higher wages and better benefits. Of course, someone will point out that resident salaries are funded by medicare. There is no prohibition against programs/hospitals forking over their own money to increase that base pay (which has been unchanged for several decades now).

There is no legitimate reason why a newly graduated NP or PA should be making 2-3 times as much as a newly graduated MD when they are working less than half the number of hours with half the education.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
New bill in Missouri house aims to let medical graduates that failed to get a residency practice primary care in underserved areas as fully licensed "Assistant Physicians"

As long as the candidate has graduated medical school and passed step I & II they can practice primary care in underserved areas.

What could possibly go wrong.

Missouri targets doctor dearth, expands first-in-nation law

This should only be an option for failed graduates from US medical schools.
 
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At least their training involves hands-on patient contact.

The common knowledge on these boards is that you actually learn to be a doc during residency.

I severely doubt the ability of Caribbean grads to give even remotely acceptable care.

Further, Now that a new class of licensed "assistant doctors" has been created, whose to say they won't try to expand the category to save on costs?
It worked for the NP Lobby.
So your overall point is that NP school better prepares you to practice than medical school. You realize that is the argument you are making, right?

The common knowledge on these boards is that you actually learn to be a doc during residency.
Residency is where you learn to become an independent doc. There are these things called NPs and PAs that have been practicing medicine under supervision for decades without residency.

I severely doubt the ability of Caribbean grads to give even remotely acceptable care.
Forgive us if we don't put much stock into an M-Zero's assessment of competence.
 
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Look for schools to bs about 100% placement rate now when 8-10% of their fail projects can work as Assistant Physicians. This means that we need more school expansions to maximize profit.
 
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Medical students who oppose this are not really thinking straight.

If passed around the country, this will put upward pressure on resident wages and benefits (albeit not too much, but I reckon some).

Opposing this also says that a medical education is worth less than a nurse practitioner or PA education.
 
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Medical students who oppose this are not really thinking straight.

This will put upward pressure on resident wages and benefits.

Opposing this also says that a medical education is worth less than a nurse practitioner or PA education.

realistically, it kinda is.
 
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Medical students who oppose this are not really thinking straight.

This will put upward pressure on resident wages and benefits.

Opposing this also says that a medical education is worth less than a nurse practitioner or PA education.
You make a good point.

But that assumes we consider Caribbean Med ed to be equal with US Med ed.
 
So your overall point is that NP school better prepares you to practice than medical school. You realize that is the argument you are making, right?


Residency is where you learn to become an independent doc. There are these things called NPs and PAs that have been practicing medicine under supervision for decades without residency.


Forgive us if we don't put much stock into an M-Zero's assessment of competence.

My argument is that Caribbean Med ed is not of high enough quality.

I'm all for this law if it gives preference to US grads who failed to match, for all the reasons you outlined.

You'll have to forgive me that I'm a bit apprehensive when the poster child of this bill is a Carib graduate that hasn't practiced medicine (ever) and graduated over 2.5 years ago.
 
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Medical students who oppose this are not really thinking straight.

Opposing this also says that a medical education is worth less than a nurse practitioner or PA education.
false choice fallacy

Neither med grads with no residency nor midlevels should be operating independently
 
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Neither med grads with no residency nor midlevels should be operating independently
And that isn't on the table. Neither of those groups will or do operate independently.
There is no reason why a medical school graduate should not be allowed to function as a PA or NP (under supervision of a board-certified physician).


** Note: though some states have (wrongly) passed laws allowing NPs to practice independently.
 
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My argument is that Caribbean Med ed is not of high enough quality.

I'm all for this law if it gives preference to US grads who failed to match, for all the reasons you outlined.

You'll have to forgive me that I'm a bit apprehensive when the poster child of this bill is a Carib graduate that hasn't practiced medicine (ever) and graduated over 2.5 years ago.

If you are a US MD and fail to match to an IM/FM residency in the boonies, you have serious problems within yourself.
 
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If you are a US MD and fail to match to an IM/FM residency in the boonies, you have serious problems within yourself.

I'm not saying it would be a common scenario. I agree that if you are US you should match 100% somewhere. It doesn't always work out that way though
 
And that isn't on the table. Neither of those groups will or do operate independently.
There is no reason why a medical school graduate should not be allowed to function as a PA or NP (under supervision of a board-certified physician).


** Note: though some states have (wrongly) passed laws allowing NPs to practice independently.
My impression of this bill is that they would be allowing these assistant physicians to practice without any kind of supervision.

If that is not the case, and physician supervision is necessary, then I would agree there is no reason unmatched MDs shouldn't work.


*edit*

Just checked and the bill does require physician supervision. Apologies, I should have caught that initially.
 
At least their training involves hands-on patient contact.

The common knowledge on these boards is that you actually learn to be a doc during residency.

I severely doubt the ability of Caribbean grads to give even remotely acceptable care.

Further, Now that a new class of licensed "assistant doctors" has been created, whose to say they won't try to expand the category to save on costs?
It worked for the NP Lobby.

Ahh, another generation of 'accepted medical students'. You should keep saying that out loud. I wonder how many residents/attendings you'll work with that may have gone to one of those. I think they'd love to hear how you feel about their ability to practice medicine!
 
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Ahh, another generation of 'accepted medical students'. You should keep saying that out loud. I wonder how many residents/attendings you'll work with that may have gone to one of those. I think they'd love to hear how you feel about their ability to practice medicine!

If they are US residency trained I have full confidence in their ability to practice medicine.
This issue at hand is they are not residency trained
 
I'm not saying it would be a common scenario. I agree that if you are US you should match 100% somewhere. It doesn't always work out that way though

And the only way that it doesn't work out that way is if there's a fatal flaw in your character like being discovered that you have sexed one of the hospital staff during your third or fourth year rotation.
 
And the only way that it doesn't work out that way is if there's a fatal flaw in your character like being discovered that you have sexed one of the hospital staff during your third or fourth year rotation.
Obviously not every US grad that went unmatched did so because of a fatal character flaw. I would suspect applying to competitive specialities with low boards would be responsible for a larger proportion...
 
If they are US residency trained I have full confidence in their ability to practice medicine.
This issue at hand is they are not residency trained

Your opinion on the matter as a premed is respectfully noted...
 
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Obviously not every US grad that went unmatched did so because of a fatal character flaw. I would suspect applying to competitive specialities with low boards would be responsible for a larger proportion...

And those same people would rather take a research gap year to boost their application for ENT/Ortho/Derm etc... than doing preventive medicine in the boonies.
 
And that isn't on the table. Neither of those groups will or do operate independently.
There is no reason why a medical school graduate should not be allowed to function as a PA or NP (under supervision of a board-certified physician).


** Note: though some states have (wrongly) passed laws allowing NPs to practice independently.
And the PAs are already chatting up Independance
 
And those same people would rather take a research gap year to boost their application for ENT/Ortho/Derm etc... than doing preventive medicine in the boonies.
Fair enough

Then the issue comes back to it being mostly Caribbean grads. As I said above, I initially missed the line that said "requires physician supervision"

I'm in complete support of the bill with physician supervision.

With regards to your other post, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who would consider a non-residency trained Carib graduate to be an acceptable care provider without some sort of supervision.
 
Just another point to consider. This bill has existed for several years (A MO state congressman came and talked to our class about it in M1 2 years ago). It had already existed for a while and they had zero people apply for those positions. As far as I know, zero people have held one of these positions since then. Even if it sounds like a good idea, it hasn't been successful thus far.
 
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Benefits to the Assistant Physician (AP) legislation:

Benefit #1 - Creates competition with encroaching mid-level "providers"
Right now with the "Doctor" of Nursing Practice, the effort has been to expand scope-of-practice to that of board-certified physicians. In other words, the nursing lobby is competing directly with the AMA over the exact same role.

By creating a new brand of mid-level, it gives the nursing lobby a brand new enemy, and one with which they will directly compete for jobs. Do you think the MBAs and the multi-millionaire schmucks who run the hospital give a damn who it is that is providing healthcare so long as the patients are happy to receive and pay for it? An AP will be no different to them than an NP or a PA. Just another piece of labor they will try to pay as little as possible for.

The amazing thing about this strategy is that it won't hurt board-certified physicians one bit, since the Assistant Physicians will be under the direct control of the board of medicine and require supervision by law (same as PAs). It will exclusively hurt those who require supervision of a board-certified physician.

If you don't think this strategy will send the AANP into total panic mode, just look at what happened when the American Society of Anesthesiologists tried to get Anesthesia Assistants legalized in every state. The CRNAs went into complete meltdown across the country, since it was a direct threat to their economic interests. It also hurt the CRNA scope of practice expansion push by virtue of creating an entirely new battlefront which their lobbyists had to fight. For a while it no longer became about "CRNA vs. Anesthesiologist" (or "MDA"), but "CRNA vs. new mid-level anesthesia providers."

As more evidence - did you ever notice how Nurse Practitioners almost uniformly oppose scope-of-practice expansion for PAs?

Lastly, think about this for a second. The AANP is going full-time at this narrative about board-certified physicians/attendings being no better than NPs. But their strategy so far as been to use severely flawed observation studies as evidence of this equivalence. Their argument has never been to compare their own training with that of attendings. In fact, they are very careful to avoid going down that road because it is such a huge discrepancy that even the average idiot on the street wouldn't buy it.
By creating the "Assistant Physician" role, it forces the new narrative across that Non-residency trained physicians are just as qualified as newly graduated NPs. The great thing is that the AANP can't really say it isn't true without attacking medical education itself. They can't really say, "Well those doctors didn't do a residency so they're not qualified" since obviously they don't do residencies.

Benefit #2 - Helps delegitimize propaganda efforts aimed at making the public believe all "providers" are equal
Another benefit is the press coverage itself. Stories on the issue will by necessity educate the ignorant public of the vast differences between board-certified physicians and other healthcare "providers." The "Doctor" of Nursing Practice degree was created in large part to confuse people about what the term "doctor" means in a health care setting. But if stories like this start appearing around the country, why that could be very bad for the so-called Doctor of Nursing Practice. Might be that the average schmuck starts asking what kind of doctor they're actually seeing, what with all them news articles about undertrained doctors being allowed to treat folk.

Benefit #3 - Upward pressure on resident salaries/benefits
People are falsely thinking the true benefit of the law will be that those who fail to match get a job. That isn't true. The benefit will be that those who choose not to match get a job.

The people who (for whatever reason) don't want to work 80+ hours per week at the hourly equivalent of minimum wage decide instead to just function as a mid-level for 2-3x the salary/benefits (in other words, what NPs/PAs make right after they graduate).

This will create some small measure of competition between the Match/ACGME/AMA/Anti-Trust-exempt monopoly system and the "Assistant Physician" route. Right now, resident salaries are price-fixed. There is no financial incentive for programs to offer better benefits or salary. There is no incentive for them to provide affordable health insurance. But offering a financially viable alternative to residency will pressure the Monopoly System to offer more, even if it is not much more.
 
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Just another point to consider. This bill has existed for several years (A MO state congressman came and talked to our class about it in M1 2 years ago). It had already existed for a while and they had zero people apply for those positions. As far as I know, zero people have held one of these positions since then. Even if it sounds like a good idea, it hasn't been successful thus far.
That's because they Board of medicine in Missouri only very recently officially set forth the requirements. It wasnt possible to apply for a license as an Assistant Physician up until very recently.
 
Benefits to the Assistant Physician (AP) legislation:

Benefit #1 - Creates competition with encroaching mid-level "providers"
Right now with the "Doctor" of Nursing Practice, the effort has been to expand scope-of-practice to that of board-certified physicians. In other words, the nursing lobby is competing directly with the AMA over the exact same role.

By creating a new brand of mid-level, it gives the nursing lobby a brand new enemy, and one with which they will directly compete for jobs. Do you think the MBAs and the multi-millionaire schmucks who run the hospital give a damn who it is that is providing healthcare so long as the patients are happy to receive and pay for it? An AP will be no different to them than an NP or a PA. Just another piece of labor they will try to pay as little as possible for.

The amazing thing about this strategy is that it won't hurt board-certified physicians one bit, since the Assistant Physicians will be under the direct control of the board of medicine and require supervision by law (same as PAs). It will exclusively hurt those who require supervision of a board-certified physician.

If you don't think this strategy will send the AANP into total panic mode, just look at what happened when the American Society of Anesthesiologists tried to get Anesthesia Assistants legalized in every state. The CRNAs went into complete meltdown across the country, since it was a direct threat to their economic interests. It also hurt the CRNA scope of practice expansion push by virtue of creating an entirely new battlefront which their lobbyists had to fight. For a while it no longer became about "CRNA vs. Anesthesiologist" (or "MDA"), but "CRNA vs. new mid-level anesthesia providers."

As more evidence - did you ever notice how Nurse Practitioners almost uniformly oppose scope-of-practice expansion for PAs?

Lastly, think about this for a second. The AANP is going full-time at this narrative about board-certified physicians/attendings being no better than NPs. But their strategy so far as been to use severely flawed observation studies as evidence of this equivalence. Their argument has never been to compare their own training with that of attendings. In fact, they are very careful to avoid going down that road because it is such a huge discrepancy that even the average idiot on the street wouldn't buy it.
By creating the "Assistant Physician" role, it forces the new narrative across that Non-residency trained physicians are just as qualified as newly graduated NPs. The great thing is that the AANP can't really say it isn't true without attacking medical education itself. They can't really say, "Well those doctors didn't do a residency so they're not qualified" since obviously they don't do residencies.

Benefit #2 - Helps delegitimize propaganda efforts aimed at making the public believe all "providers" are equal
Another benefit is the press coverage itself. Stories on the issue will by necessity educate the ignorant public of the vast differences between board-certified physicians and other healthcare "providers." The "Doctor" of Nursing Practice degree was created in large part to confuse people about what the term "doctor" means in a health care setting. But if stories like this start appearing around the country, why that could be very bad for the so-called Doctor of Nursing Practice. Might be that the average schmuck starts asking what kind of doctor they're actually seeing, what with all them news articles about undertrained doctors being allowed to treat folk.

Benefit #3 - Upward pressure on resident salaries/benefits
People are falsely thinking the true benefit of the law will be that those who fail to match get a job. That isn't true. The benefit will be that those who choose not to match get a job.

The people who (for whatever reason) don't want to work 80+ hours per week at the hourly equivalent of minimum wage decide instead to just function as a mid-level for 2-3x the salary/benefits (in other words, what NPs/PAs make right after they graduate).

This will create some small measure of competition between the Match/ACGME/AMA/Anti-Trust-exempt monopoly system and the "Assistant Physician" route. Right now, resident salaries are price-fixed. There is no financial incentive for programs to offer better benefits or salary. There is no incentive for them to provide affordable health insurance. But offering a financially viable alternative to residency will pressure the Monopoly System to offer more, even if it is not much more.
Very informative, thanks for laying this out.


The statements I made earlier were under the incorrect pretense that they would be allowing these graduates to practice without MD supervision
 
You make a good point.

But that assumes we consider Caribbean Med ed to be equal with US Med ed.

That would be as logical as arguing medical students who "memorized" FA, Sketchy, Pathoma and YOLO for their basic sciences are on the same level as medical students who attended lectures, got to know their faculty and, gasp, studied textbooks, all the while found all of the errors and omissions from FA. Why else does Tao Le publi$h a new edition every year? Lot$$$ and Lot$$$$ of error$$$
 
That would be as logical as arguing medical students who "memorized" FA, Sketchy, Pathoma and YOLO for their basic sciences are on the same level as medical students who attended lectures, got to know their faculty and, gasp, studied textbooks, all the while found all of the errors and omissions from FA. Why else does Tao Le publi$h a new edition every year? Lot$$$ and Lot$$$$ of error$$$

Is your point that US and Caribbean education is identical and that the quality of the individual student is the main factor in competency prior to residency?

Surely you have to admit that Caribbean school's self select for students that are generally inferior to US MD counterparts.
 
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Is your point that US and Caribbean education is identical and that the quality of the individual student is the main factor in competency prior to residency?

Surely you have to admit that Caribbean school's self select for students that are generally inferior to US MD counterparts.

Depends.
 
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Is your point that US and Caribbean education is identical and that the quality of the individual student is the main factor in competency prior to residency?

Surely you have to admit that Caribbean school's self select for students that are generally inferior to US MD counterparts.
Id still prefer a Caribbean MD to an online NP, at least they have taken step.
 
Id still prefer a Caribbean MD to an online NP, at least they have taken step.
yeah I didn't notice that the article said "under physician supervision" I agree that this bill would be good for all doctors as long as that is true.

I thought they were gonna let IMGs who didn't match just practice unsupervised. You can understand why I was concerned haha
 
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