Non-Traditional Reapply; mixed feedback

[SaraTonin_15]

Hey there,

So, I've had an extremely non-traditional application and had mixed feedback from this cycle. On the one hand, I have a low GPA and average MCAT (see below for full stats --projected hrs for 2020 application cycle) meaning some schools did not even send me secondaries. There is a full story that goes with my low undergrad GPA, but the fact it is so low makes me want to take extra classes at my local CC to try and improve my GPA more. The other, I did have one II and have followed up with schools that rejected me and they have said my graduate work and current MCAT score shows a strong upward trend and does not warrant taking extra classes. Instead, I should focus on increasing my clinical experience and reframing my application for the next cycle. This makes me hopeful because that is something I have worked on increasing the last year, but I'm worried I might be too optimistic and that my GPA might still hold me back despite what I was told. Any advice?

GPA

• cumulative cGPA: 3.01
• cumulative sGPA: 2.93
• undergrad cGPA: 2.91
• undergraduate sGPA: 2.74
• graduate cGPA: 3.50
• graduate sGPA: 3.5

MCAT: 510

• CPFB: 127
• CARS: 129
• BBFLS: 128
• PSBFB: 126

ECS

• Work
  • 2016-current: Clinical Research Assistant
  • 2016-current: started own public health toxicology company --private contracts
  • 2014-2016: Environmental Protection Agency -- toxicologist
  • 2012-2014: Graduate Student Researcher
  • 2010-2012: Research Labs + several other odd jobs
• Publications
  • 5 research articles (1 sixth, 2 third, 2 second)
  • 4 public health regulatory documents
  • 20+ consumer safety reports
  • 8 literature reviews
  • 8+ posters
• Clinical Experience
  • Dec 2018-current: volunteer resource clinic (247 hrs)
  • Jan 2018-current: shadowing pysch, neuro-onc, and neuro-surgery units (781 hrs)
  • Jan 2017-current: clinical research assistant (7000+ hrs)

This current cycle I applied to 55 schools MD + DO including state (TX) schools. 1 II from the state school and waitlisted currently.

Thanks!

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[jarednogeek]

you have about 730 more shadowing hours than you need. You need 200+ hours shadowing with the underserved. Apply DO as well because your stats look weak overall for MD.

 

[SaraTonin_15]

you have about 730 more shadowing hours than you need. You need 200+ hours shadowing with the underserved. Apply DO as well because your stats look weak overall for MD.

Thanks. I keep doing the shadowing because I enjoy it. I feel like I learn a lot about patient interaction and it's something I just keep up for me at this point. In regards to the DO application, I thought they were more focused on applicants that show holistic approach to medicine. Are they expected an applicant to be more tailored to that idea of medicine?

 

[Faha]

If you are not accepted this cycle you need to take additional undergraduate level science courses to increase your sGPA to 3.0 . Also apply broadly to at least 12 DO schools and include the newer schools.

 

[jarednogeek]

Thanks. I keep doing the shadowing because I enjoy it. I feel like I learn a lot about patient interaction and it's something I just keep up for me at this point. In regards to the DO application, I thought they were more focused on applicants that show holistic approach to medicine. Are they expected an applicant to be more tailored to that idea of medicine?

I understand that but it makes your app uneven, especially when you have little to zero non clinical volunteering to the underserved. That can keep you out of medical school. Get a DO letter of rec and apply both md and do next cycle.

 

[SaraTonin_15]

I understand that but it makes your app uneven, especially when you have little to zero non clinical volunteering to the underserved. That can keep you out of medical school. Get a DO letter of rec and apply both md and do next cycle.

Hmmm. The clinic I volunteer at is a LGBT+ focused centre (it's been a big part of my journey into medicine). Would it benefit me to increase my non-clinic experience with underserved? I'll try to start reaching out to a DO physician to shadow for a potential LOC as well.

 

[jarednogeek]

Hmmm. The clinic I volunteer at is a LGBT+ focused centre (it's been a big part of my journey into medicine). Would it benefit me to increase my non-clinic experience with underserved? I'll try to start reaching out to a DO physician to shadow for a potential LOC as well.

That’s good but you need non clinical. Your app is currently research focused with a low gpa. Even the graduate GPA is average. Definitely get non clinical and apply DO

 

[SaraTonin_15]

That’s good but you need non clinical. Your app is currently research focused with a low gpa. Even the graduate GPA is average. Definitely get non clinical and apply DO

Ok. Thanks for the feedback and advice. I'll look into some non-clinical volunteering that make sense with my application.

 

[jarednogeek]

Are all those 247 hrs for the LGBT focused center? If so, then that IS non-clinical so I'm puzzled about what @jarednogeek is talking about. It's good that you sought feedback on how to improve your application for next cycle The schools that mentioned that you need more clinical experience are right. I see that you are currently a clinical research assistant and that's good and all but you need patient interaction. For ex. Volunteering at a nursing home or hospital, working or volunteering as a CNA, anything where you are touching/assisting patients.

I would also bump the science GPA to a 3.0.

I couldn’t really understand your post but volunteering at a clinic with hands on enclunteee with patients is clinical volunteering. I recommend soup kitchen, underserved tutoring

 

[Ad2b]

1. your MCAT is not high enough to overcome your GPA in my opinion and that is why you're being excluded from secondaries; a 510 is a good score IF your GPA is above 3.5; if not, you need that MCAT to help offset the lower GPA (I was told to shoot for 515+ to help offset my 30 year old GPA of 2.196; current GPA is almost 4.0 - same school)

2. take another year and take more courses at the under graduate level in science (genetics, microbio, physio, etc... whatever you can) to help the sGPA

3. wait a cycle - there is NO rush to do this and make sure you have all your ducks in a row to be successful; it sounds terrible but honestly? it's terrible not being 100% prepared and then get crushed by rejection after rejection... don't do that to yourself; trust me on that - the year(s) FLY by

 

[SaraTonin_15]

1. your MCAT is not high enough to overcome your GPA in my opinion and that is why you're being excluded from secondaries; a 510 is a good score IF your GPA is above 3.5; if not, you need that MCAT to help offset the lower GPA (I was told to shoot for 515+ to help offset my 30 year old GPA of 2.196; current GPA is almost 4.0 - same school)

2. take another year and take more courses at the under graduate level in science (genetics, microbio, physio, etc... whatever you can) to help the sGPA

3. wait a cycle - there is NO rush to do this and make sure you have all your ducks in a row to be successful; it sounds terrible but honestly? it's terrible not being 100% prepared and then get crushed by rejection after rejection... don't do that to yourself; trust me on that - the year(s) FLY by

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the MCAT score could be higher, but I'm hesitant to retake it with a decent score already there. Maybe a few extra classes can fill in the gaps. I just wish my university offered free/cheaper classes for staff. Will online courses or CC courses look better? As for waiting another cycle, I feel like my ducks are in a row and I'm just proving a point to the admissions people now. I feel like I've built up a career that shows my intellectual capabilities outside my undergrad GPA, gotten enough clinical experience to make me sure this is what I want to do, and know (roughly) the ins and outs of the application process. I don't know, but it feels like waiting another 2 years (essentially) is a giant waste of time if I'm just trying to prove something to someone else.

 

[SaraTonin_15]

I couldn’t really understand your post but volunteering at a clinic with hands on enclunteee with patients is clinical volunteering. I recommend soup kitchen, underserved tutoring

I'm big into environmental consumer safety to protect underserved communities from hazards in their environment. My company specializes in developing hazard reports on products that are considered toxic to sensitive populations. It's paid though. Would that count, or would I have to bust out a few reports for free on my own time to supplement the non-clinic volunteering part of things.

 

[jarednogeek]

I'm big into environmental consumer safety to protect underserved communities from hazards in their environment. My company specializes in developing hazard reports on products that are considered toxic to sensitive populations. It's paid though. Would that count, or would I have to bust out a few reports for free on my own time to supplement the non-clinic volunteering part of things.

I would do something more like soup kitchen or tutoring at risk kids. That’s just me. A couple hours on the weekend or after work.

 

[Ad2b]

Will online courses or CC courses look better?

Standard advice has been that CC and online are <<< 4 year university courses; online are typically not included at all in any GPA

As for waiting another cycle, I feel like my ducks are in a row and I'm just proving a point to the admissions people now. I feel like I've built up a career that shows my intellectual capabilities outside my undergrad GPA, gotten enough clinical experience to make me sure this is what I want to do, and know (roughly) the ins and outs of the application process. I don't know, but it feels like waiting another 2 years (essentially) is a giant waste of time if I'm just trying to prove something to someone else.

Addressing those two points:

Unfortunately, what you think or feel isn't really a consideration from a purely statistical, admin point of view. I wish that were true. I'm a former top executive of a public company reporting to the BoD and it matters not. I think I'm pretty dang smart for doing what I've done with my career but what I think, or feel, matters not.

If you look at it from their point of view - why you? why should they risk a seat on someone with a poor GPA and mediocre MCAT score when they can take someone younger, with a better GPA and better MCAT score with similar volunteering and clinical hours? That's harsh, and I don't necessarily mean it to be but would like you to be realistic about your chances without doing some more digging.

As for the giant waste of time, it was my suggestion, it could hold true or not. You could get off a waitlist, or not. BUT what I've seen hanging around here FOR YEARS is that many who try to push an application cycle before they are truly ready and truly have a solid package to put forth, end up wasting more time and getting more discouraged.

I'm 54. Time is not standing still while I figure out how to make MY package look good (MCAT score is really what I need). Rather than push to take another quick stab at the MCAT, I took a year completely off - away - not here, not reddit, shut down my 10 year old blog, walked away - THREW my MCAT books in the trash. Went on with life... a full year away.

In March, I'm taking the MCAT for the damn'ed last time (or April depending on go-live for my system implementation). Do I feel like I've wasted time? YEAH! LOTS of it but when/if my MCAT score comes back solid (515+) the time spent away will give me the greatest advantage to have a solid package for someone to review. The time has been spent getting everything I owe paid off - no debt. None. I've spent the time considering alternative paths - bioterrorism defense, CDC pathway with PhD, etc.

My chances are slim, I know that. Your chances are slim if you don't do something different. It sucks to watch all of those on these forums go on and get in but you know what will suck worse? If I don't do something different to try and join them. Doing the same, will keep me right where I'm at. Watching everyone else... don't be me.

 

[SaraTonin_15]

Standard advice has been that CC and online are <<< 4 year university courses; online are typically not included at all in any GPA
If you look at it from their point of view - why you? why should they risk a seat on someone with a poor GPA and mediocre MCAT score when they can take someone younger, with a better GPA and better MCAT score with similar volunteering and clinical hours? That's harsh, and I don't necessarily mean it to be but would like you to be realistic about your chances without doing some more digging.
As for the giant waste of time, it was my suggestion, it could hold true or not. You could get off a waitlist, or not. BUT what I've seen hanging around here FOR YEARS is that many who try to push an application cycle before they are truly ready and truly have a solid package to put forth, end up wasting more time and getting more discouraged. I've spent the time considering alternative paths - bioterrorism defense, CDC pathway with PhD, etc.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off ungrateful for the advice/ opinion. I have certainly juggled with similar thoughts on how to best apply and what process makes the most sense for me. As to the 'why you' question, I'm struggling with the idea of that question. I can see myself navigating the professional world of medicine well. I know I have (and have the CV to back it up) the professional experience, the educational tenacity, the interpersonal skills, and the career longevity to do well in this field. However, I don't feel like I can accurately say that I would do better than anyone else with better or worse stats. I suppose that is part of the problem of this field being so competitive. I think I offer a unique perspective to the field and I wish that was enough to make me a competitive applicant, but it isn't.

That being said, I personally don't see the harm in reapplying next year for me. I have familiar with the process at this point, I'm making strong moves to work on my GPA, increase clinic and non-clinical hours, and working full time in a clinical research position. If I have the chance to get in a year earlier and the chance to drop all the unnecessary junk that does nothing more than make me appear a 'stronger candidate' I feel I should take that chance. Just my opinion, and I'm not sure it's right. Simply makes sense to me at least.

 

[Ad2b]

Sorry, didn't mean to come off ungrateful for the advice/ opinion... Simply makes sense to me at least.

Didn't think you were ungrateful at all with free advice, it's often wise to take it all with a teaspoon of salt, so they say

And your last sentence is really all that matters. If you are comfortable applying and feel you have the no need to wait a year then don't. Either way, I do wish you the best of luck!

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Wait, just to clarify: you haven't heard back from any DO schools either? What was the numbers breakdown of how many MD vs DO schools you applied to? (sorry if this was mentioned already)

 

[SaraTonin_15]

Wait, just to clarify: you haven't heard back from any DO schools either? What was the numbers breakdown of how many MD vs DO schools you applied to? (sorry if this was mentioned already)

Haven't heard from any DO schools either and the II was for MD. I only applied to 2 DO and 55 MD because I wasn't sure I would have a chance with DO programs since I've never shown any interest in osteopathic medicine.

 

[SaraTonin_15]

Didn't think you were ungrateful at all with free advice, it's often wise to take it all with a teaspoon of salt, so they say

And your last sentence is really all that matters. If you are comfortable applying and feel you have the no need to wait a year then don't. Either way, I do wish you the best of luck!

Thanks and good luck on your end too? Also, you did bioweapon work? I did research on long-term neurological implications of seizure-inducing agents for a DOD grant! Sounds like we have a similar background.

 

[theKingLT]

you have about 730 more shadowing hours than you need. You need 200+ hours shadowing with the underserved. Apply DO as well because your stats look weak overall for MD.

Hmmm. The clinic I volunteer at is a LGBT+ focused centre (it's been a big part of my journey into medicine). Would it benefit me to increase my non-clinic experience with underserved? I'll try to start reaching out to a DO physician to shadow for a potential LOC as well.

Just fyi, @jarednogeek meant to say you need 200+ hours volunteering with the undeserved, not shadowing with the underserved. Seriously, more shadowing is pointless except for getting a DO letter like you said

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Haven't heard from any DO schools either and the II was for MD. I only applied to 2 DO and 55 MD because I wasn't sure I would have a chance with DO programs since I've never shown any interest in osteopathic medicine.

My unsolicited take: To me, it sounds more like this cycle you were just gunning for MD rather than wanting to get into medical school. 2 DO schools is way too low for the GPAs that you have, and IMO, most of those MD schools were probably reaches despite that solid MCAT. If you want to continue to gun for MD, then I agree with Ad2b that you need to not apply next cycle. You have to prove to AdComs that you can have a strong upward trend in undergraduate work, which you can't do in just one semester before the next cycle. If you want to get into medical school next cycle, though, then you have to apply to majority DO schools and, of course, include your TX ones.
But you obviously still have a chance to get off the waitlist this cycle, too! Good luck!

 

[SaraTonin_15]

My unsolicited take: To me, it sounds more like this cycle you were just gunning for MD rather than wanting to get into medical school. 2 DO schools is way too low for the GPAs that you have, and IMO, most of those MD schools were probably reaches despite that solid MCAT. If you want to continue to gun for MD, then I agree with Ad2b that you need to not apply next cycle. You have to prove to AdComs that you can have a strong upward trend in undergraduate work, which you can't do in just one semester before the next cycle. If you want to get into medical school next cycle, though, then you have to apply to majority DO schools and, of course, include your TX ones.
But you obviously still have a chance to get off the waitlist this cycle, too! Good luck!

Thanks! And it wasn't that I was gunning for MD over DO (though in the research world there is still an unfair bias that would help me career-wise), it was more like I wasn't super clear on the difference between the two and most of my experience was in the MD realm. I applied to mostly low-tier schools, but I'll admit that a large chunk of the 55 schools I applied to were higher tier (with my GPA most all schools are higher tier for me though). I'm definitely going to try again next round with more DO and see where it takes me. Hopefully, this is all overkill and I get off the waitlist, but I'd rather be prepared to reapply just in case.

 

[Ad2b]

Also, you did bioweapon work?

No. Bio-defense, not weaponizing but saving lives after an event.