Nontrad Chances and Advice

[brdmadgrl82]

Hello, I posted with a couple of questions before, but I really need some advice before I get rolling with the Fall classes. And I guess a reality check as far as how I am doing for application to an MD school.

I am 28, currently in a Post-Bac program in Illinois (at a school associated with a med school). Advisors say I need a 3.6 and 30+ but that 70% of students get accepted.

My undergrad was in psych with around a 3.88gpa. I took Bio 101 and math courses in my undergrad up to pre-calc, the science/math gpa from these courses was around a 3.7.

I fear that I am on a downward trend!

Pre-Reqs:
undergrad: Bio 1 & lab: A
post-bac: 1st semester: Bio 2: B+, lab 2: A-, Calculus: "W"
2nd semester/summer: Chem Lab 1: B-, Chem 1: "W"

(Post bac gpa so far: 3.266)

1) What are my chances so far?
I do not plan to re-take Calc and the story with Chem 1: dropped the lecture section because I was struggling with the material in a 6 week summer class (horrible multiple choice test taking skills)

2) How do I explain my "w's"!? I don't want to say I wasn't doing well

3) Any suggestions on how I can study better? It feels like it has been a long time since I have seen the sciences. I decided to take only 1 Physics class and Lab in the Fall and try my hardest...I will be crushed if I can't get this gpa up. I plan to attempt Chem 1 in the spring with Phys 2 and Lab 2.

I currently work part-time, volunteer, and commute 1hr30 one way to school.

Work/Volunteer History:

My work and volunteer involve: a career in the banking industry for 4yrs, shadowing physicians, volunteering at a peds clinic, working at a mental health clinic, local holiday food drives for the homeless, ect...

4) Resume question- do I need to list every single job? How are references checked? (I did quit a couple jobs when I was younger). I worked as a barista in a coffee shop, and a bunch of other jobs since I was 16 since my family didn't have money, I am sure some references will not be wonderful.


Thanks!

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[mspeedwagon]

I'm going to take a stab at some of the questions below before I head off to my molecular biology class.


1) What are my chances so far?
I do not plan to re-take Calc and the story with Chem 1: dropped the lecture section because I was struggling with the material in a 6 week summer class (horrible multiple choice test taking skills)
1) Unfortunately a W in each semester of post-bac doesn't look good. But, you didn't need me to tell you that. The past is the past. Move on from here and realize that you can't afford many more Ws. Don't worry about it, just make sure you don't have to take any more.

2) How do I explain my "w's"!? I don't want to say I wasn't doing well
2) Unfortunately, I think here honesty the best policy. However, do your best to put a positive spin on it. The transition back into school was a little harder than I anticipated, but it taught me how to overcome challenges and apply myself and through it I feel better prepared to take on the challenges of medical school... blah, blah, blah.

3) Any suggestions on how I can study better? It feels like it has been a long time since I have seen the sciences. I decided to take only 1 Physics class and Lab in the Fall and try my hardest...I will be crushed if I can't get this gpa up. I plan to attempt Chem 1 in the spring with Phys 2 and Lab 2.
3) Can't speak for Physics since I haven't taken it. As for Chem... chem 1 is infinitely easier than chem 2. I'd start getting books like G-Chem for Dummies and start making sure you have the basics down. An AP chem book might be helpful as well (though there are chem II topics covered in an AP chem class). Having the fundamentals down is also important for the MCAT. Since already know you will have a hard time taking chem I, do a lot of pre-reading before taking the course and watch chem lectures online to help with topics you are weak in (Khan Academy may help... though I've only used it for biology).

I currently work part-time, volunteer, and commute 1hr30 one way to school.
- And here is your problem. Cut back on these and move closer or take classes at a different school if these are options. They are alll useless if you bring your GPA down. A few more Ws or a GPA under 3.3 and you will not be competitive for any MD program.

4) Resume question- do I need to list every single job? How are references checked? (I did quit a couple jobs when I was younger). I worked as a barista in a coffee shop, and a bunch of other jobs since I was 16 since my family didn't have money, I am sure some references will not be wonderful.
4) Start with jobs you had in college and beyond. Definitely don't list anything before college.

 

[Bernoull]

Hello, I posted with a couple of questions before, but I really need some advice before I get rolling with the Fall classes. And I guess a reality check as far as how I am doing for application to an MD school.

I am 28, currently in a Post-Bac program in Illinois (at a school associated with a med school). Advisors say I need a 3.6 and 30+ but that 70% of students get accepted.

My undergrad was in psych with around a 3.88gpa. I took Bio 101 and math courses in my undergrad up to pre-calc, the science/math gpa from these courses was around a 3.7.

I fear that I am on a downward trend!

Pre-Reqs:
undergrad: Bio 1 & lab: A
post-bac: 1st semester: Bio 2: B+, lab 2: A-, Calculus: "W"
2nd semester/summer: Chem Lab 1: B-, Chem 1: "W"

(Post bac gpa so far: 3.266)

1) What are my chances so far?
I do not plan to re-take Calc and the story with Chem 1: dropped the lecture section because I was struggling with the material in a 6 week summer class (horrible multiple choice test taking skills)

2) How do I explain my "w's"!? I don't want to say I wasn't doing well

3) Any suggestions on how I can study better? It feels like it has been a long time since I have seen the sciences. I decided to take only 1 Physics class and Lab in the Fall and try my hardest...I will be crushed if I can't get this gpa up. I plan to attempt Chem 1 in the spring with Phys 2 and Lab 2.

I currently work part-time, volunteer, and commute 1hr30 one way to school.

Work/Volunteer History:

My work and volunteer involve: a career in the banking industry for 4yrs, shadowing physicians, volunteering at a peds clinic, working at a mental health clinic, local holiday food drives for the homeless, ect...

4) Resume question- do I need to list every single job? How are references checked? (I did quit a couple jobs when I was younger). I worked as a barista in a coffee shop, and a bunch of other jobs since I was 16 since my family didn't have money, I am sure some references will not be wonderful.


Thanks!

Ws don't need to be explained, except in unusual/extreme cases like someone withdrew from all classes in one semester.... family emergency etc etc. Secondly Ws, don't impact ur gpa, another reason why explanations are generally not wise.

Now, if u're having gpa issues with prereqs and more generally science, u gotta be careful, school scrutinize these closely. Withdrawing ur Chem can raise eyebrows so on retake, u better ace it.

Get tutoring and any/all help with the sciences b4 u wreck ur chances, especially that u're in a postbac...

GL

 

[brdmadgrl82]

Thank you! So am I basically at the point where I need to pull all A's from now on in the post bac to even have a chance for MD?

 

[n3xa]

DO isn't an option?

 

[mspeedwagon]

To add to the above poster, I would ONLY explain Ws if asked about them at an interview. I would NOT actively bring this up. Definitely don't want to highlight this.

The lower below a 3.3 GPA you go, the worse your shot at M.D. schools are. If you start getting to far below a 3.0 (without a very strong MCAT) you will hurt your chances at both MD and DO programs.

Remember the averages are 3.6 and 3.4 for MD and DO respectively, so you don't want to get too far below these numbers.

Thank you! So am I basically at the point where I need to pull all A's from now on in the post bac to even have a chance for MD?

 

[NTF]

1) What are my chances so far?
I do not plan to re-take Calc and the story with Chem 1: dropped the lecture section because I was struggling with the material in a 6 week summer class (horrible multiple choice test taking skills)

I don't think you've detrimentally harmed your chances, though it will raise some doubts. Only way to limit the damage is to get A's from here on out and do well on the MCAT. No one can really opine properly on your chances at this point. You've got a great prior ugrad record going for you but adcoms will weigh recent science coursework more heavily. Make sure you diagnose why you were having problems. I'd also be concerned about your purported horrible MC test-taking skills. Starting with the MCAT and on into med school you'll be entering a life of MC evaluations. If you don't learn how to deal with MC tests it'll plague you for many years to come. Best to remedy this issue now.

2) How do I explain my "w's"!? I don't want to say I wasn't doing well

In essays you won't have to explain the W's unless you want to, though it may be prudent. This becomes an opportunity for you to turn a misstep into a demonstration of your ability to grow and overcome obstacles. If you can get A's from here on out, you can explain how you hadn't taken sciences in many years. You diagnosed the problem, came up with a plan of action, and excelled in your subsequent work. Make a negative into a positive about your ability to learn and adapt.
It's also possible an interviewer may question you on your transcript, so figure out how you'll talk about it beforehand. But not now. Right now your priority is to get A's.

3) Any suggestions on how I can study better? It feels like it has been a long time since I have seen the sciences. I decided to take only 1 Physics class and Lab in the Fall and try my hardest

Without knowing what you tried in the past, it's hard to answer this question. Tutors and going to office-hours early in the course is a good idea. Ask your professor about the best way to prepare for their class. They may offer sources of practice questions or insights into what they think is important to focus on.
Also make sure you've cleared your plate sufficiently so you can give your coursework the diligence it requires.

4) Resume question- do I need to list every single job? How are references checked? (I did quit a couple jobs when I was younger). I worked as a barista in a coffee shop, and a bunch of other jobs since I was 16 since my family didn't have money, I am sure some references will not be wonderful.

Unlike transcripts you're not required to list every single job you've had. You actually have a lot of liberty to list whatever you like (at least on primary apps - the secondaries vary by school, though I never encountered any that required every job be listed). You will likely have to list your most recent job experience though. Also, in an interview you may be asked to explain gaps in time in your app, so just prepared for that. Generally, anything after HS is fair game to list. Also, when I applied reference numbers were not required on the AMCAS app, but I'd track them down anyway. Anything on your app is fair game for a school to ask you to verify and offer references for.

Best of luck. Don't let the W's and B- get you down. Commit yourself to acing your remaining coursework. If you have time you may consider taking additional ugrad science classes to shore up the case that your bump in the road was really just a hiccup.

 

[brdmadgrl82]

n3xa- well, I would prefer an MD program (more specifically the one I have my heart set on that is offered by my current post-bac University). I would like to leave DO as an option, but I did notice that to apply to a DO school I would need letters of rec from DO's (I have not shadowed any DO's, however, might consider shadowing prior to apps).

mspeedwagon- good point about the "w". I will try my best to get that gpa up...hopefully I can pull some A's by avoiding summer classes, and cutting down on my work/volunteer stuff.

NTF- thank you for such a detailed response, this has been most helpful.

 

[jackieMD2007]

DO isn't an option?

I really hate this sort of advice.
Osteopathic medicine is its own complete philosophy and specialty, not a back-up for college students and others worried about their GPA. DO's are not the lower-scoring counterpart to MD's. If you're not interested in osteopathic medicine then don't "use it" selfishly.


OP, keep working hard at school, work out a good MCAT score and you'll be fine.

 

[Don Draper]

I really hate this sort of advice.
Osteopathic medicine is its own complete philosophy and specialty, not a back-up for college students and others worried about their GPA. DO's are not the lower-scoring counterpart to MD's. If you're not interested in osteopathic medicine then don't "use it" selfishly.


OP, keep working hard at school, work out a good MCAT score and you'll be fine.

Jackie,

You have to be realistic. If a candidate can't make an MD school and wants to be a physician, it's fine for them to apply to DO. Most DO's I've read on these forums never "bought in" to the philosophy, they just want to be doctors. Very few DO's use OMM in practice.

 

[jackieMD2007]

Jackie,

You have to be realistic. If a candidate can't make an MD school and wants to be a physician, it's fine for them to apply to DO. Most DO's I've read on these forums never "bought in" to the philosophy, they just want to be doctors. Very few DO's use OMM in practice.

1)How many DO's have you worked with?

The ones I spent most of my third year with at my home hospital and others DID perform manipulation and ALWAYS wanted to be DO's. The ones that used it as a "backup" or whatever are smart enough/respectful enough about the profession to not mention in public or in front of other people that they used this profession as a route into medical school.

2) No matter what, I get that people apply as a backup. I just think it is rude to immediately suggest to another pre-med that if they have "bad grades" or whatever that they should "Think about DO!"

 

[n3xa]

2) No matter what, I get that people apply as a backup. I just think it is rude to immediately suggest to another pre-med that if they have "bad grades" or whatever that they should "Think about DO!"

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was asking for clarification.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I realize this question wasn't directed at me. But, since I've worked with a ton of DOs in what is now over 5 years in the health care field, I feel a need to answer it.

1) I've worked with close to 50 DOs in my 5 yrs throughout the US; everywhere from Boston to Kansas to California.

Not a single ONE practices manipulation (that's right, not one of them). As a matter of fact, those in CA pretty much admit they went D.O. because they wanted to stay in CA and couldn't get into any of the M.D. schools here in Cali. Other admitted they went because of lower stats.

2) D.O. is a viable option for those with lower grades and MCAT scores. D.O.s are practicing docs just like their M.D. counterparts. If your number are in better range for a D.O. school then it definitely makes sense to apply. D.O. schools realize and embrace this. If they didn't they wouldn't utilize things like grade replacement. They are looking for a well rounded individual and look at a holistic applicant.

I have yet to find a D.O. that says that he/she went to D.O. school solely because of the D.O. philosophy. The general philosophy is to become a doctor (that's the reason most of these folks went to D.O. schools), and a D.O. school is a means to this end and not an end in itself.

For the record, I have every intention on applying preferentially to D.O. schools, but for me it's a matter of location. I want to be a medical student near where my wife to be who is a medical resident.

1)How many DO's have you worked with?

The ones I spent most of my third year with at my home hospital and others DID perform manipulation and ALWAYS wanted to be DO's. The ones that used it as a "backup" or whatever are smart enough/respectful enough about the profession to not mention in public or in front of other people that they used this profession as a route into medical school.

2) No matter what, I get that people apply as a backup. I just think it is rude to immediately suggest to another pre-med that if they have "bad grades" or whatever that they should "Think about DO!"

 

[EdLongshanks]

1)How many DO's have you worked with?

The ones I spent most of my third year with at my home hospital and others DID perform manipulation and ALWAYS wanted to be DO's. The ones that used it as a "backup" or whatever are smart enough/respectful enough about the profession to not mention in public or in front of other people that they used this profession as a route into medical school.

2) No matter what, I get that people apply as a backup. I just think it is rude to immediately suggest to another pre-med that if they have "bad grades" or whatever that they should "Think about DO!"

The list of DO's that I have met or worked with is low (n=~10) but the only one that I have met who believed strongly in the DO philosophy was an old doctor who is nearing retirement now. I seem to recall reading about studies that suggested the vast majority of DO's don't regularly practice manipulation.

It seems to me that the practice of medicine has primacy over the practice of osteopathic medicine.

I don't see the rudeness in suggesting DO to someone. It's rude if one is using it as an insult, but most of the time, the posters here are referring to the grade replacement policy that the DO schools use. That makes it possible for someone with a sub 2.0 GPA to become a doctor who would never be able to become an American-educated MD.

 

[eablackwell]

I have a 3.3 cgpa for MD and a 3.89 gpa for DO, that's how much difference grade replacement makes for me (and that's replacing ONLY grades from my freshman year a decade ago).

I would honestly love to learn more about DOs from an actual DO and not use it only for backup, but every DO I've called for shadowing opportunities refuses to return my messages.

 

[AcclratngCharge]

I have a 3.3 cgpa for MD and a 3.89 gpa for DO, that's how much difference grade replacement makes for me (and that's replacing ONLY grades from my freshman year a decade ago).

I would honestly love to learn more about DOs from an actual DO and not use it only for backup, but every DO I've called for shadowing opportunities refuses to return my messages.

Keep calling and , make sure you have a CV/Resume prepared. Have you tried contacting a DO School? They may try to help you arrange shadowing with faculty.

 

[eablackwell]

Keep calling and , make sure you have a CV/Resume prepared. Have you tried contacting a DO School? They may try to help you arrange shadowing with faculty.

Thanks I wish there was a DO school close so I could shadow faculty regularly. I do have a CV prepared, as I've needed it for the MD shadowing I've done.