Nontrads that made it to medical school or are already physicians, is it worth it?

[Nasrudin]

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Worth it? I dunno. Define "worth it". As many others have alluded to, the answer isn't all that simple.

I came out of a decent career making decent money. Nothing too flashy, but fairly stable, with the potential to have a decent middle-class life. The job itself wasn't all that exciting and I didn't feel like I was really "making a difference". But then again, there's something to be said for coming home to your wife and kids at 4:30 PM M-F with every weekend off and 4 weeks of paid vacation time. Never missing a birthday, never missing a holiday, never missing a soccer game.

Nonetheless, my wife and I agreed on my plan to pursue medical school. We knew it would be hard, but you never really know what you don't know until.... well until you actually know.

I'm 5 months from the end of residency in a field I really like for the most part, and will then be starting fellowship in a subspecialty that I absolutely love. My career is/ will be far more fulfilling than what I was doing before, I love the intellectual stimulation, and I count it a true privilege to be a physician. Do I regret becoming a doctor? No, not in the sense that I have an amazing job and am very lucky to do what I get to do.

I'm also a few years into a "staying together for the kids" arrangement with a woman whom I used to have a great marriage to, have missed so many important events for my kids, and am barely getting by while I watch my friends and their wives upgrade their houses, upgrade their cars, save for retirement, travel the world, make it to their kids' games, and live relatively easy and stable lives. Do I regret becoming a doctor? Yes, in the sense that the cost has been enormous, far beyond just the $300,000 I have in student loan debt (on top of the nearly $0 I have in savings).

Am I glad I became a doctor? Yes. Am I glad I became a doctor? No.

What I'm saying is, you should understand that becoming a physician will affect every area of your life, for the good and for the bad. For some people it is more good. For some people it is more bad. For some it's a wash. You have to look at your own situation and determine not only what you THINK the cost could be, but what the cost COULD be. And then make your decision. Good luck.

That's a f'n post. Leveled hard and mean. At the truth.

 

[Labrat07]

Worth it? I dunno. Define "worth it". As many others have alluded to, the answer isn't all that simple.

I came out of a decent career making decent money. Nothing too flashy, but fairly stable, with the potential to have a decent middle-class life. The job itself wasn't all that exciting and I didn't feel like I was really "making a difference". But then again, there's something to be said for coming home to your wife and kids at 4:30 PM M-F with every weekend off and 4 weeks of paid vacation time. Never missing a birthday, never missing a holiday, never missing a soccer game.

Nonetheless, my wife and I agreed on my plan to pursue medical school. We knew it would be hard, but you never really know what you don't know until.... well until you actually know.

I'm 5 months from the end of residency in a field I really like for the most part, and will then be starting fellowship in a subspecialty that I absolutely love. My career is/ will be far more fulfilling than what I was doing before, I love the intellectual stimulation, and I count it a true privilege to be a physician. Do I regret becoming a doctor? No, not in the sense that I have an amazing job and am very lucky to do what I get to do.

I'm also a few years into a "staying together for the kids" arrangement with a woman whom I used to have a great marriage to, have missed so many important events for my kids, and am barely getting by while I watch my friends and their wives upgrade their houses, upgrade their cars, save for retirement, travel the world, make it to their kids' games, and live relatively easy and stable lives. Do I regret becoming a doctor? Yes, in the sense that the cost has been enormous, far beyond just the $300,000 I have in student loan debt (on top of the nearly $0 I have in savings).

Am I glad I became a doctor? Yes. Am I glad I became a doctor? No.

What I'm saying is, you should understand that becoming a physician will affect every area of your life, for the good and for the bad. For some people it is more good. For some people it is more bad. For some it's a wash. You have to look at your own situation and determine not only what you THINK the cost could be, but what the cost COULD be. And then make your decision. Good luck.

Words of wisdom here. All of us premeds should read this at least once. Cold hard truth.

 

[QofQuimica]

To be fair, residency is its own special kind of hell. You know those Seligman experiments where they kept shocking the caged dogs, and eventually the dogs gave up trying to escape the shocks even when the doors to the cages were wide open? There is certainly a sense of learned helplessness that can occur during residency, not the least of which is because, unlike most other jobs, you can't easily quit your residency and join a new one (or otherwise get another job in medicine) unless you're willing to accept the risk of never practicing medicine at all. That is a pretty tall order to ask of someone with mid-six figure debt and no other way to pay it back.

On the other hand, residency doesn't last forever; as an attending, the tables definitely turn. If I quit my job tomorrow, the university would have the right to go after me for violating my contract (I'm supposed to give them a few months' notice), but an assistant prof like me is not really worth that level of effort. They'd simply hire someone else to replace me, and I could go start a new job tomorrow. (The issue of burning bridges is, of course, an entirely different discussion, and not one that I'm advocating.)

A word of advice for those of you who are finishing residency now: don't buy a house your first year out. Particularly if you value the ability to vote with your feet on how much you like your first job.

 

[DrDreams]

I thought I would chime in my 2 cents here. (sorry it will be fragmented and all over the place,I have a block exam tomorrow morning!)

I am a non-traditional student. I have wanted to become a physician since the age of 6 or 7. However, I worked a while, got married and decided that other things were not for me before I decided to get into medicine. There are times, that I look myself in the mirror and ask myself WTF did I do. Then there are times, where class-mates and family members seek me out to ask to have OMT done, and because of what I have done, I am able to treat them. What comes after gives tiny a tiny voice of hope that says "its just the first 2 years that suck! hang in there". Most recently, I had a family member say "oh my God, I can finally take a deep breath" That made me feel good, because I learned how to work my hands to figure this out. It was especially even more rewarding for me because OMT is not my greatest of strengths. But I learned, sat down and figured it out hours on end, and then the application of it, and the successful application of it felt really good. It is those tiny moments, that remind you WHY the heck you did it.

Otherwise, It is stressful beyond belief. The only type of stress that it can be described as is crazy, it makes you crazy. However, I cannot really see myself doing anything else.

 

[omn]

Hey guys, I am still in college now, but I most likely will end up as a nontraditional student (assuming I decide to continue on the premed path). I was wondering for medical students or physicians that were non-traditional students,).

DON"T BE NAIVE ABOUT CAREER SUCCESS ....

Also for perspective, I'm older than you, +45, and thought I would have liked psychiatry also since I was a pretty good philo major... but alas.. it was quite different than I expected and I didn't like the rotation I had..

unfortunately one fault of the system is that it is very difficult to tell what the specialities will be like from just weeks or even months of rotations... and you won't have rotations until 3rd year.. (good luck with having the time during the summer for more "research", but that's not really clinical "practice").

I'm not sure what your background is, but if you were in psychology, you might like psychiatry, but if you were philo. or cog.sci. like me, you might find it a bit disturbing... so, I would advise, if you were to do this, I wouldn't attach yourself 2 strongly to any preconceived career notion but rather you have to LOVE medicine in general... cause you really won't have much idea what it is like until you are at the end of med school.. it's an unfortunate truth.. (about whoever decided that 24-25 year olds can choose their lifetime residency training at that age... during the end of 3rd year )

In my opinion.. one big problem with the CHANGES "they" started to do, say 30 years ago, to rid the system of the internship year (and move to the standard being categorical residency programs..) was likely a "CHANGE" that was done in ERROR, should be UNDONE, and is at the DETRIMENT of career satisfaction and public health

 

[DSM_302.0]

Um, great thread. Glad to read this as a procrastination from my Orgo II exam studying.

 

[JustPlainBill]

Thought I'd share this for everyone's musings ---

When I was a pre-med and going through everything, I dreamed of how cool it would be to be a med student -- studying the vast intricacies of the human body and disease process; sitting in dusty libraries studying ancient tomes containing the body of medical knowledge; being lectured at the bedside by someone bearing a strong resemblance to John Houseman in "The Paper Chase" and how much my current situation sucked and my mentality was," Just make it through the next 4 hours to lunch"; At lunchtime, "Just make it through the next 4 hours until dinner"; At dinner time,"Just make it through the next 2 hours of class"...and so on...

When I was a med student, I thought of how cool it would be to be a resident, actually seeing patients, being a physician in training --- having a semi-mastery of my craft but now learning to apply it quickly and efficiently -- and how much my current situation sucked with an exam every week and quiz every 2 days and not having enough time in the day to read it all, review it all, attend all the lectures, eat, sleep, exercise, see the family -- God how many nights I cried at my inadequacy and how much it sucked....

When I was a resident, I thought of how cool it would be to be an attending, out from under the crushing, soul-stealing environment of a county hospital residency program -- I cried over how much it sucked....

Now that I'm an attending, I realize that rather than ruminating on how much it sucked, I should have enjoyed every moment--- just 2 years ago I was thinking of how great it would be to be where I am today -- and the other day I caught myself ruminating over how stressful clinic was, with all the requisite paperwork, dealing with MAs/staff, CME requirements, overhead, etc......and I laughed and laughed, realizing that I truly am....


Living The Dream -----

I Thank God for all He has done for me to bring me through everything and place me where I am today.....

YMMV, no warranties expressed or implied, car driven by a professional driver on a closed track..

 

[pageantry]

The promise I made myself when I began this journey was to make sure I was enjoying or at least gaining from the process, most of the time. Because this process does tend to make little goal-chasers and box-tickers out of us.

I hate this current place I'm in, trying to decide on and then start med school. It's the first time in a long time when I find it impossible to simply rest in the moment. All I think about right now is the future, and it sucks. But maybe I shouldn't. And it doesn't have to.

Thanks for this reminder, @JustPlainBill.

 

[omn]

The promise I made myself when I began this journey was to make sure I was enjoying or at least gaining from the process, most of the time. Because this process does tend to make little goal-chasers and box-tickers out of us.

I hate this current place I'm in, trying to decide on and then start med school. It's the first time in a long time when I find it impossible to simply rest in the moment. All I think about right now is the future, and it sucks. But maybe I shouldn't. And it doesn't have to.

Thanks for this reminder, @JustPlainBill.

It's nice to see these interesting little internal dialogues running, surely some valuable "self-turned" thought... mmm, but medicine .... not so much a productive fruits of introspection... by definition I believe (?) empirical enterprises tend to have different a somewhat different master... nothing wrong with
existentialism though... but tends to be a little diff.

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[pageantry]

It's nice to see these interesting little internal dialogues running, surely some valuable "self-turned" thought... mmm, but medicine .... not so much a productive fruits of introspection... by definition I believe (?) empirical enterprises tend to have different a somewhat different master... nothing wrong with
existentialism though... but tends to be a little diff.

I strongly disagree that medicine is not productively served by introspection. Actually, I find it difficult to understand how you came to that conclusion. What's the story?

 

[omn]

I strongly disagree that medicine is not productively served by introspection. Actually, I find it difficult to understand how you came to that conclusion. What's the story?

Yes, STRONG you are...........,

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[omn]

it's interesting to talk theoretically.. almost theistically, about medicine... not quite sure what purpose it serves yet...............

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[pageantry]

Making meaning out of our lives is not a passive process. A sense of lacking meaning is a major factor in job dissatisfaction, especially among unhappy doctors. Unhappy doctors are demonstrably tied to poorer patient outcomes and higher numbers of lawsuits.

The AAMC and medical schools are recognizing that meaning has to be actively involved in the doctor-farming process for this very reason. Acceptance criteria and classes offered are changing for this very reason. I think it's great. Never too late to get started, either.

 

[operaman]

I'm now coming into the home stretch of intern year which puts me a little past the halfway point of this whole endeavor. Has it been worth it so far? Oh hell yeah it has!

Everyone has a unique experience through this whole thing, both from differences in circumstance and differences in perspective. My non-traditional path was through the arts, so this has greatly colored my experiences. Medicine is often described as both art and science and I love it for that. Coming to a new art as a mature artist is much like a polyglot coming to a new language - you're comfortable starting at the beginning and confident that you will master it soon enough despite the inevitable stumbles and falls. My biggest challenge has been growing as a scientist, and I was blessed to find great mentors along the way who helped me and continue to do so even now.

I absolutely loved medical school. All of it. From the countless hours in the library to the lab to the wards, I loved every minute of it. I thought the classes were fascinating and I appreciated the opportunity to finally start learning the language of my new craft.

By Christmas of ms1, thanks to my classes, i was able to figure out that my mother had been misdiagnosed for the last 10 years and got her to go back to her doc with my thoughts and it has completely changed her life. The woman who could barely stand in August was dancing at my brother's wedding six months later. Never got to do THAT in my old job!

I loved the wards and found my artistic background especially valuable. I loved those times when I would find something that completely altered someone's care for the better. I loved tough attendings who would pimp mercilessly. I loved the start of 4th year seeing the new 3rd years start and realizing just how far I'd come in such a short time (will probably feel something similar in a few months when the new interns start).

I loved growing as a scientist, learning how to write scientific papers, present scientific presentations. I'll never forget the first email I got from a physician across the country who read an article of mine and used it to treat a patient with great success. My first taste of how publishing could allow me to touch people I would never ever meet in person, and I was just a student! Crazy!

Every year, when I would express how much fun I was having, there would be people who would caution that the next year was going to be much worse and things were going to change and the suckage would begin. The reality was that those predictions were 100% wrong for me and every year has been better than the last. Maybe they'll be right eventually, but so far they don't have a good track record.

I heard the same omens of woe before starting intern year, but those predictions have proven false as well and I'm having a blast. Saving lives, touching lives, learning a TON...sometimes I can't believe I'm actually allowed to do this. I'm in a field I love, at a fabulous program surrounded by caring, supportive people with similar mindsets. Sure, there's a lot of work to do, and sometimes there are moments when things get really intense and there isn't always a good outcome and it can be really hard. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I know there are many who have different experiences. Setting aside those who simply act jaded and miserable because they want to appear too cool for school, I would suggest that a great deal of difference between people who are miserable and those who are joyful is a matter of perspective. This is one area where non-trads are especially advantaged simply by virtue of our experience. We've all had enough crappy days to understand that this is just part of life and you can either focus on the negative you can't change or focus on the positive and enjoy yourself. I hear a number of people express disdain watching their non-medical peers do things like buy homes (or bigger homes), cars (or nicer cars), have kids, travel, etc., while they're still slogging through training. I suppose if that's someone's definition of success, then medicine would certainly delay it a bit; personally i have zero desire to buy such things (now an airplane on the other hand....), and all my non-med friends are artists so we have a different set of priorities. Again, all a matter of personal perspective.

So yes, absolutely worth it 100%. Would do it again in a heartbeat. No, not every moment has been roses and unicorns, but that's just life.

 

[sandstone]

I'm now coming into the home stretch of intern year which puts me a little past the halfway point of this whole endeavor. Has it been worth it so far? Oh hell yeah it has!

Everyone has a unique experience through this whole thing, both from differences in circumstance and differences in perspective. My non-traditional path was through the arts, so this has greatly colored my experiences. Medicine is often described as both art and science and I love it for that. Coming to a new art as a mature artist is much like a polyglot coming to a new language - you're comfortable starting at the beginning and confident that you will master it soon enough despite the inevitable stumbles and falls. My biggest challenge has been growing as a scientist, and I was blessed to find great mentors along the way who helped me and continue to do so even now.

I absolutely loved medical school. All of it. From the countless hours in the library to the lab to the wards, I loved every minute of it. I thought the classes were fascinating and I appreciated the opportunity to finally start learning the language of my new craft.

By Christmas of ms1, thanks to my classes, i was able to figure out that my mother had been misdiagnosed for the last 10 years and got her to go back to her doc with my thoughts and it has completely changed her life. The woman who could barely stand in August was dancing at my brother's wedding six months later. Never got to do THAT in my old job!

I loved the wards and found my artistic background especially valuable. I loved those times when I would find something that completely altered someone's care for the better. I loved tough attendings who would pimp mercilessly. I loved the start of 4th year seeing the new 3rd years start and realizing just how far I'd come in such a short time (will probably feel something similar in a few months when the new interns start).

I loved growing as a scientist, learning how to write scientific papers, present scientific presentations. I'll never forget the first email I got from a physician across the country who read an article of mine and used it to treat a patient with great success. My first taste of how publishing could allow me to touch people I would never ever meet in person, and I was just a student! Crazy!

Every year, when I would express how much fun I was having, there would be people who would caution that the next year was going to be much worse and things were going to change and the suckage would begin. The reality was that those predictions were 100% wrong for me and every year has been better than the last. Maybe they'll be right eventually, but so far they don't have a good track record.

I heard the same omens of woe before starting intern year, but those predictions have proven false as well and I'm having a blast. Saving lives, touching lives, learning a TON...sometimes I can't believe I'm actually allowed to do this. I'm in a field I love, at a fabulous program surrounded by caring, supportive people with similar mindsets. Sure, there's a lot of work to do, and sometimes there are moments when things get really intense and there isn't always a good outcome and it can be really hard. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I know there are many who have different experiences. Setting aside those who simply act jaded and miserable because they want to appear too cool for school, I would suggest that a great deal of difference between people who are miserable and those who are joyful is a matter of perspective. This is one area where non-trads are especially advantaged simply by virtue of our experience. We've all had enough crappy days to understand that this is just part of life and you can either focus on the negative you can't change or focus on the positive and enjoy yourself. I hear a number of people express disdain watching their non-medical peers do things like buy homes (or bigger homes), cars (or nicer cars), have kids, travel, etc., while they're still slogging through training. I suppose if that's someone's definition of success, then medicine would certainly delay it a bit; personally i have zero desire to buy such things (now an airplane on the other hand....), and all my non-med friends are artists so we have a different set of priorities. Again, all a matter of personal perspective.

So yes, absolutely worth it 100%. Would do it again in a heartbeat. No, not every moment has been roses and unicorns, but that's just life.

This is a great post and is really spot on. I share similar experiences to this poster in that all along the way many kept telling me it will get worse and harder, but in reality it just keeps getting better! Don't get me wrong, it is a brutal, stressful, and hard process, but the hard times are more than balanced by really good experiences.

That's where it really is all about perspective. I've worked some really crappy jobs along with some great ones. I would take medical school and becoming a doctor any day over those jobs. The key to happiness in life as well as med school is keeping a positive attitude and being grateful for what we have. While some have legit reasons to be unhappy, I feel that lots of my classmates who are unhappy would be that way doing anything. It seems for some reason a lot of people who go to med school are pretty negative and whiny people, and it actually gets pretty damn annoying hearing them bitch and moan all the time about how hard they have it. They don't seem to understand how much better they have it than 98% of people on the planet.

 

[omn]

..sooooo... answering the question, remember that you will be directly or indirectly critiqued by your peers on this exact point (even though it is none of their business)... and REMEMBER.. it is almost self-evident (!) that it really DOES NOT make sense to change your current career, if the pay and lifestyle would potentially be more enviable if you keep working... there are a lot of (fill in adjective) doctors out there... who regret not have ring time for life outside the hospital, and who aren't make proportionately enough for their lower social standing... IE, not television producers, mildly famous actors (remember all those folks from "The Office" are internationally recognized actors now!) writer , financier, diplomat, congressman, legal advisory, international consultants, national engineer/architect/artists.. or any other fields where if you really did succeed (remember that TV show FAME) you will be a national or even INTERNATIONAL player playing on a national or international playing field.. which REALLY IS a far better scenario... I'm not kidding about this...

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[omn]

i.e., if jobs on national and international programs taking you between DC, NYC, Tokyo and London a few times a year (not to mention invitations to Davos and similar (Davos, not =/Atlanta) is any possibility within your current career trajectory, I would advise against it.. any questions...?

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[QofQuimica]

The problem with that analysis is that you're focusing on the extreme examples instead of on the typical or average examples. The average physician is competent in their field; has a purposeful job with relatively good job security that can be done in nearly any location in the country; achieves their position mostly via hard work (albeit affected by some of the randomness of life that we all experience); and earns a six figure salary that allows them to live an upper middle class life and basically afford anything (not EVERYTHING, but ANYTHING) material that s/he wishes to have. The average performing artist waits tables at a restaurant because their odds of "making it big" depend so heavily on randomness, even if s/he works very hard. I would much rather live the life of an average physician than that of an average performing artist. Though acting on a community stage as a retired physician who doesn't need to earn a living from it would be pretty awesome and is something I've considered doing.

 

[ghobs]

Is it worth it? I used to ponder that question every day --- I left a software engineering career that I had grown to despise the hard way -- laid off at age 40 after 17 years in the business -- in one afternoon I went from being able to provide a nice living for my wife and 2 pre-school age kids to not being able to afford a Happy Meal and having my 5 year old son ask,"Daddy, why are we poor?" when we were getting gas for the lawn mower --- I kinda did the toe-in-the-water routine -- first I wanted to be a rad tech, then a PT, then a PA then a chiropractor and finally just went for it -- all of this evolved as I was working 3 part time jobs and getting my prereqs/MCAT out of the way -- it sucked by the way --- I also considered being in LE/EMS/firefighting -- thought about the military as there was a nice little war going on but I was too old with no prior service ---

By the grace of God, I get accepted on my first try with a low GPA but 4.0 in the prereqs and a mediocre MCAT score (class average 28, I had 25) -- back then I believed that people from my background weren't doctors, it was for those of special knowledge and training -- with that mindset, I let the Dean of Academics get inside my head on day one and I'm still shaking that to this day-- I had zero confidence in my ability and daily have to tell myself that there isn't something I'm missing lurking around the corner ---

I moved away from my family for 3 years, underwent a hellish residency where I really didn't learn much and was physically and verbally abused by faculty -- yes, I said physically --- but in my mind, it was either make it through or there was nothing to come home to -- my family would be hearing,"Attention Wal Mart Shoppers" for a while and wearing hand me downs --- it sucked.

But I'm out now, seeing about 17 to 20 patients per day and building a practice -- was it worth it --- well ---

-- Was it worth it for the privilege of being there when a human being takes their first breath and cries and begins this journey we call life?
-- Was it worth it to be there and hear the lungs go silent and the heart beat it last few beats as someone departs into eternity?
-- Was it worth it to be there when you have to deliver the news that things look grim and ride the emotional roller coaster with a patient you've come to enjoy having on your panel?
-- Was it worth it to have a grandma look you in the face and tell you that she wants your opinion because you're her "doctor" in spite of what the gyn/onc specialist says - does she need this surgery/

yeah, the days are long, you're never good enough/prepared enough/competent enough, patient's are demanding and there are days when it looks so tempting to just hop in the Jeep, grab a 5th of Jack, and drive out in the woods and watch the freakin' squirrels ---

to me, my worst day as a physician is monumentally better than my best day as an engineer -- I really can't see myself doing anything else --- I do love what I do and wish I had believed enough in myself to do this at a younger age ----

I taught myself to code in order to launch my mobile shopping startup, but I'm considering switching gears and going into medicine, using my tech experience to help modernize the doctor-patient interaction. What was it about software that made you want to make the switch? For reference, I was premed and completed all my prereqs, I would need to take the MCAT and apply.

 

[ghobs]

36 yo M2 and former Software Engineer. Love med school. I wish I had done this sooner. Year 2 is a slog, but I still enjoy it...maybe not the hours at times but the challenge really keeps me engaged and I love what I am learning.

I hated my former career so maybe that is why I appreciate every day so much. I can't say how it will be for you though.

What made you decide to switch from Software Engineering? I'm a self taught coder who's deciding between getting a 2nd bachelors in CS or going back to the med route (my original bachelors was a completed Premed track with a major in Economics). I'd ideally like to combine my tech skills with medicine to modernize the doctor-patient interaction in some way, in addition to actually practicing as a doctor of course.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-want-out.1189507/#post-17550921

Here's at least one person that made it all the way to residency as a nontrad and found it not worth it.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Hey guys, I am still in college now, but I most likely will end up as a nontraditional student (assuming I decide to continue on the premed path). I was wondering for medical students or physicians that were non-traditional students, was it worth it? Do you like your career? One thing I constantly read on here is that one of the benefits of being nontraditional is that you have more perspective on what jobs are like, so they are less likely to become jaded or frustrated when faced with the problems of the medical system?

What was your career before medical school/being a doctor and how did you feel about it, and what is it like being in medical school or being an actual doctor? How old were you? Do you think it was worth it to go through the path? What specialty are you if you're a doctor or what specialty are you considering?

Just some background info on me, I'm especially interested in mental health, which is why I am considering medical school for psychiatry. I'm still interested in physical health, but I feel that psychiatry interests me more. It's either that or become a UX (user experience) designer (which I realize is a very random choice and a totally different career path for someone interested in healthcare).

My advice is don't take advice from the majority of pre-meds you will meet online and in person, as they usually have no idea what they're trying to get into. Get direction from the physicians and residents that have been through it. Also, the loan situation has changed quite a bit since 2013 or 2014, look into that as you'll be asked how you plan to finance during your interviews anyway. Pre-meds tend to have an unbelievably rosey idea of being a doctor and romanticize it while blocking out any logical thought, with a common motto being "I'm set once I'm done with the MCAT" or "It's only the first two years of medical school that are tough." Basically, they have no idea what they're getting into. Talk to med students, residents and doctors that you DON'T know, the filter will come off and this has certainly given me pause about going to medical school. NOTE: The opposite may be true for you! Find out on your own when all the (unbiased) facts are weighed in.

 

[JustPlainBill]

I taught myself to code in order to launch my mobile shopping startup, but I'm considering switching gears and going into medicine, using my tech experience to help modernize the doctor-patient interaction. What was it about software that made you want to make the switch? For reference, I was premed and completed all my prereqs, I would need to take the MCAT and apply.

Well, I'll answer that one on 2 fronts ---

1) When I left the defense contracting side of the business, things got boring real quick -- I really had trouble getting excited about the next new feature for a telecomm switching system (i.e. 3 way calls, etc) -- it always turned into a 'we're gonna do this better than the last project because we're in charge" type of deal. I am not and never have been interested in the pure art/science of writing software in any aspect (from the application layer down to the OS and I've done all of it in everything from C++ to Z8000 assembler) -- it was a means to an end -- i.e. what were we trying to get the system to do. I liked the problem solving and logical thought but that's about it. I got bored and really felt like I was wasting my life.

2) The decision kind of got made for me -- I trained the 3 guys who took my job to India, left a major telecomm firm before it imploded and then rode out the downturn for 2 more years -- after the layoff, I sent out about 200 resume's a month for 6 months during which time I got 4 responses, 2 of which were computer generated form letters. I didn't want to move to Florida or either coast to say nothing of moving out of the country -- no jobs around and I could see the writing on the wall -- engineering in the US is not coming back as it was in it's heyday of space shots, JPL labs, etc. We've surrendered the math/sciences to the Indians and Chinese -- now if it doesn't involve wearing your pants around your butt, acting 'gangsta' or taking duck face selfies, most native born US kids don't want to have anything to do with it, much less if it requires any real higher order work in the brain housing group -- can you say common core ---- for me, it was a no brainer -- I'm not the type to stand around and whine about how bad things are, career wise or spend time beating a dead horse, I'll go get what I want and work my butt off to do it. I don't want anybody's help and surely don't need it, thank you very much ---

So to speak to your idea of "modernizing" the doctor-patient relationship -- good luck with that --- if you know anything about what it took to agree on the IEEE comm protocols, think that struggle, writ large for EMR comm protocols --- recall that managing software engineers is like herding cats -- when they don't know what clinicians need and refuse to cooperate with each other anyway, it's a recipe for maddening failure and the patient's suffer ---

 

[JustPlainBill]

My advice is don't take advice from the majority of pre-meds you will meet online and in person, as they usually have no idea what they're trying to get into. Get direction from the physicians and residents that have been through it. Also, the loan situation has changed quite a bit since 2013 or 2014, look into that as you'll be asked how you plan to finance during your interviews anyway. Pre-meds tend to have an unbelievably rosey idea of being a doctor and romanticize it while blocking out any logical thought, with a common motto being "I'm set once I'm done with the MCAT" or "It's only the first two years of medical school that are tough." Basically, they have no idea what they're getting into. Talk to med students, residents and doctors that you DON'T know, the filter will come off and this has certainly given me pause about going to medical school. NOTE: The opposite may be true for you! Find out on your own when all the (unbiased) facts are weighed in.

The Force is strong in this one...wisdom you have gained, not stupid you are ----

And that, my friends, is no BS --- pre-meds have no clue (unless they grew up in a medical family while the family member was going through it) about what it takes -- most get their idea of medicine from TV (just like most people get their idea of the military from movies/TV) and the truth is far from it.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had pre-meds (and even pre-pre-meds) try to chat me up when I'm in public -- usually on the way home from work in scrubs (Saturday clinic) --- the dose titration of the reality check usually depends on my mood -- non-pre-med by standers are usually left slack jawed by the time I'm done. I do so love it when I hear,"I want to help people" -- that's about the time I tell them to join The Peace Corps or the Boy Scouts --

I'm resisting the urge to go off on a rant right now -- yesterday was rough -- yes, I still love what I do and all my previous posts still apply but it is certainly not all daffodils, puppies chasing their tails and cats enjoying balls of yarn -- yesterday was more like being locked in the velosaraptor cage with three of them coming at you, one right up the middle and the other two beginning a flanking maneuver and you're unarmed --- it's about to get real sporty, real quick ---

 

[justreachforthesky]

The Force is strong in this one...wisdom you have gained, not stupid you are ----

And that, my friends, is no BS --- pre-meds have no clue (unless they grew up in a medical family while the family member was going through it) about what it takes -- most get their idea of medicine from TV (just like most people get their idea of the military from movies/TV) and the truth is far from it.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had pre-meds (and even pre-pre-meds) try to chat me up when I'm in public -- usually on the way home from work in scrubs (Saturday clinic) --- the dose titration of the reality check usually depends on my mood -- non-pre-med by standers are usually left slack jawed by the time I'm done. I do so love it when I hear,"I want to help people" -- that's about the time I tell them to join The Peace Corps or the Boy Scouts --

I'm resisting the urge to go off on a rant right now -- yesterday was rough -- yes, I still love what I do and all my previous posts still apply but it is certainly not all daffodils, puppies chasing their tails and cats enjoying balls of yarn -- yesterday was more like being locked in the velosaraptor cage with three of them coming at you, one right up the middle and the other two beginning a flanking maneuver and you're unarmed --- it's about to get real sporty, real quick ---

I would pay money to see one of these commutes 🤣

The pre-pre-meds make me want to pull my hair out, they're as disconnected from reality as one can get: "But I'm not good in science", "I have to take college level math?" They really think their lives as a physician will be easier than sitting through an undergrad lecture about magnets.



So I could not begin to imagine what it feels like being a physician and listening to pre-meds yap away about how cool it is to be a doctor if pre-pre-meds are giving me headaches.

 

[Astharia]

And that, my friends, is no BS --- pre-meds have no clue (unless they grew up in a medical family while the family member was going through it) about what it takes -- most get their idea of medicine from TV (just like most people get their idea of the military from movies/TV) and the truth is far from it.

This post is awesome! So much insight for us pre-meds. I think JustPlainBill hit the nail on the head, no one knows what they're getting into and no one is really ready. I think this is what terrifies me the most about choosing medicine. But, at the end of the day, I owe it to myself to give it my all and do it. Rather than being like a friend of mine who graduated with good grades, and decided to never apply because "I won't get in." and settled for working a mail room job at an insurance company (turns out a kinesiology degree isn't really that marketable).

 

[berean4ever]

Dear JustPlainBill,
Thank you for such a very candid and thought provoking post. I enjoyed reading about your struggle and how you did not give up. It is an example to me that one should never stop trying, even when things seem like they are at the lowest point. I have been touched, truly and my hope is that I can share that kind of story one day. Though things happen in life I have to keep reminding myself that I must keep fighting, if for nothing else because of my precious children who need their mother to be strong.
Thanks again.

 

[omn]

... the moral calculus is the moral calculus

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[prettylittlebird]

Yes, it's worth it 🙂

 

[cabinbuilder]

Yes, It was worth it for me. Reality though can be tiresome and wearing. The guy with chest pain in urgent care with ST elevation who doesn't believe you and refuses ER transfer. The 7o year old poorly controlled diabetic with 3 days of abdominal pain, bloody stools, and vomiting who doesn't believe you that it's not heartburn. The 80 year old who "is sure" that the only thing that will fix him is a shot of steroid. The 18 year old with "anxiety" looking for any med you will give and really is just wanting quick cash from a easy street drug deal. The front office that doesn't have a clue about what a "real triage case" is and they have me look at a papercut because "it's bleeding" yet say nothing about the 80 year old s/p fall on Coumadin with raccoon eyes. Sigh....... I have fun most days but I get weary fighting doctor google and having to tell people that "your sore throat is strep negative and antibiotics won't fix it" then they complain to the admin and you get reprimanded because your customer service skills are somehow lacking because the patient apparently knows more than my medical degree.

I do know that I enjoy the puzzle of figuring out hard cases, that recognizing a life-threatening issue and getting folks the help they need is very rewarding. I will never be in poverty again. I make 6 figures and only have to work 10 days a month. I travel as much as I want and overall live a great quality of life. No pain, no gain folks.

 

[omn]

Keep in mind... if you feel important goal is to make Surgeon General... (?) only route is medical school....... so weigh your options carefully.........

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[ChE04]

Keep in mind... if you feel important goal is to make Surgeon General... (?) only route is medical school....... so weigh your options carefully.........

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Just a matter of time before nurses have a pathway to becoming "nurse practitioner generals" 🙂

 

[Darth Doc]

Just a matter of time before nurses have a pathway to becoming "nurse practitioner generals" 🙂

There are RNs who are generals already.

 

[bluegrass belle]

2 years later I'm in med school studying and it's getting rough -- multiple exams, practicals, etc. --- and I remembered the evening at Wal-Mart mentioned above -- so I marched my happy self down to the local Walmart and picked up a can of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- and put it on my study desk to remind myself that things are never as bad as that night -- I had my professors sign that freakin can and I'm putting it up in a shadow box in my office as a reminder ---

King David had a trophy room -- that can is one element in my trophy room ----

Find something to help you focus and drive on --- Find an excuse to win -- KEEP GOING --- if you don't get it right, you do it again -- don't quit

I keep your story in a word doc. Maybe it's an odd thing to do, but when I feel like giving up on this journey to becoming a physician, I open your story and I read it. And I keep going. I've had a lot of things happen over the years that have inspired me to pursue this path -- those things are my tomato paste cans. Reading your story brings all of that back into focus for me.

 

[dent for the win]

Hey, OP. I'm in a similar position in which I am very interested in psychiatry (not for the money) but because I've always been fascinated by how people think. Did you decide on applying for this cycle?

 

[skeptastic]

I don't often tell this part of the tale ---

So one of the "good" jobs I had during my premed taking prereqs days was as an overnight stocker at Wal-mart -- it was good in the sense that I got 40 hours a week, employee discounts (which put tires on the car that we couldn't afford otherwise) and benefits at 90 days with steady work --- it sucked because I had to work nights, it was quiet and left me time to consider my fate --

So one night, I was detailed to the canned goods aisle -- has the tomato sauce, tomato paste, canned beans, etc. -- and I'm on my knees stocking the smallest cans (kind that you can wrap your hand around) of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- I'm not a small guy and just about the time I'd get the cans set, as I'm extracting my hand from the shelf, I'd knock some over and have to repair that side -- while doing that, I'd knock over others -- I must've spent 15 minutes on this one part of the shelf -- it's about 1:30 in the morning, post break and here I am ----

Some teenagers who are out and about on a Friday night walk by and observe this --- and they start making snarky comments about the "old man" and mutter "loser" and certain other things ---

I maintained game face until they left, but I'm thinking," Here I am, a 40 year old, degreed engineer with 17 years of experience who actually laid in, software wise, the SS7 protocols from Bell Labs that became the backbone of STPs/SCPs and the signaling network that morphed into what we now call the internet and I can't afford to buy my kids a toy they want, take my wife out for pizza and now I've got teenagers making fun of me and I can't say anything -- I can't even stock tomato paste right" ----

it was rough --

2 years later I'm in med school studying and it's getting rough -- multiple exams, practicals, etc. --- and I remembered the evening at Wal-Mart mentioned above -- so I marched my happy self down to the local Walmart and picked up a can of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- and put it on my study desk to remind myself that things are never as bad as that night -- I had my professors sign that freakin can and I'm putting it up in a shadow box in my office as a reminder ---

King David had a trophy room -- that can is one element in my trophy room ----

Find something to help you focus and drive on --- Find an excuse to win -- KEEP GOING --- if you don't get it right, you do it again -- don't quit

I love this account. Thank you for sharing it. To describe it as powerful would be an understatement.

 

[deleted480308]

It is sooooooooo much better than my old careers

My wife and I had to discuss where to put extra money for retirement after we hit the limits placed by govt. I had never even known that was a thing before

 

[andrek82]

This was definitely worth it! I'm still in residency, but even now being able to be a part of something bigger is completely worth the long road I took to get here.

 

[Johnrawlsneuro]

Is it worth it? I used to ponder that question every day --- I left a software engineering career that I had grown to despise the hard way -- laid off at age 40 after 17 years in the business -- in one afternoon I went from being able to provide a nice living for my wife and 2 pre-school age kids to not being able to afford a Happy Meal and having my 5 year old son ask,"Daddy, why are we poor?" when we were getting gas for the lawn mower --- I kinda did the toe-in-the-water routine -- first I wanted to be a rad tech, then a PT, then a PA then a chiropractor and finally just went for it -- all of this evolved as I was working 3 part time jobs and getting my prereqs/MCAT out of the way -- it sucked by the way --- I also considered being in LE/EMS/firefighting -- thought about the military as there was a nice little war going on but I was too old with no prior service ---

By the grace of God, I get accepted on my first try with a low GPA but 4.0 in the prereqs and a mediocre MCAT score (class average 28, I had 25) -- back then I believed that people from my background weren't doctors, it was for those of special knowledge and training -- with that mindset, I let the Dean of Academics get inside my head on day one and I'm still shaking that to this day-- I had zero confidence in my ability and daily have to tell myself that there isn't something I'm missing lurking around the corner ---

I moved away from my family for 3 years, underwent a hellish residency where I really didn't learn much and was physically and verbally abused by faculty -- yes, I said physically --- but in my mind, it was either make it through or there was nothing to come home to -- my family would be hearing,"Attention Wal Mart Shoppers" for a while and wearing hand me downs --- it sucked.

But I'm out now, seeing about 17 to 20 patients per day and building a practice -- was it worth it --- well ---

-- Was it worth it for the privilege of being there when a human being takes their first breath and cries and begins this journey we call life?
-- Was it worth it to be there and hear the lungs go silent and the heart beat it last few beats as someone departs into eternity?
-- Was it worth it to be there when you have to deliver the news that things look grim and ride the emotional roller coaster with a patient you've come to enjoy having on your panel?
-- Was it worth it to have a grandma look you in the face and tell you that she wants your opinion because you're her "doctor" in spite of what the gyn/onc specialist says - does she need this surgery/

yeah, the days are long, you're never good enough/prepared enough/competent enough, patient's are demanding and there are days when it looks so tempting to just hop in the Jeep, grab a 5th of Jack, and drive out in the woods and watch the freakin' squirrels ---

to me, my worst day as a physician is monumentally better than my best day as an engineer -- I really can't see myself doing anything else --- I do love what I do and wish I had believed enough in myself to do this at a younger age ----

Goddamn this was inspiring

 

[siliso]

Yeah, it is. Look around at people in the field whom you admire and enjoy - are they happy to be physicians? For me they are, and I don’t relate or resonate with those who are relentlessly negative. Maybe figuring out whether you vibe more with the happy docs or the unhappy will have some predictive power for you.

I’ve never been looking for international fame or fabulous wealth - a long time ago I said to myself (while sweating over whether we could afford cheddar cheese) if I can get to the point where I can buy anything we need or want from the grocery store without having to crunch the numbers I would be grateful. Got there in internship so I have not what to complain about re standard of living. My work is interesting and meaningful, get to connect with people, learn lifelong and teach, contribute something of value to my community. Work in a VA doing gen med and love the population and ability to get for my patients what they need. Enjoyed the journey too. Marriage still going strong 15years later. Good kids. would do it all again.

 

[allojay]

To add to a list of wonderful responses, I'll say this: yes! its worth it. I can't even begin to imagine how crazy this journey has been. 4.5 years ago, I had no idea if I'd be in medical school, and now I'm looking at graduating in a few weeks. I can go all day and tell you my long journey, but I'll say that the journey was worth it. Working full time as an RN (mostly overnights) while going to classes full time (day) and also having family responsibilities really shapes you. It toughens you and med school is just another beast that is meant to beat you down and lift you up repeatedly. But through it all, I've grown and I'm tough as nails. I've always had a chip on my shoulder (being a non-trad student), but to be able to get through college, RN career, medical school admissions, med school, and residency interviews, I feel like this journey has been sweet. I love this stuff and even though I'm exhausted, and constantly doubt myself every single day, it's the patients that need me that keep me going. This is what I've dreamed of doing and no matter how hard it has been, I'll continue to endure and I have no regrets. At the end of the day, if you love Medicine, nothing will deter you away from it despite how brutal it can be.

 

[GenSurgONLY]

I am not going to answer the question asked for you, but I WILL relate how so many people have NO IDEA how much documentation is an evolving and never-going-to-change aspect there is to being a physician. Document, document, document! Inpatient or outpatient. You did not write it down it did not happen in the legal-medical complex.

Allow me to explain. You want to see a patient? Ok, great. Now document everything that happened. You want to call them to follow up? Document. Talk to a family member (when you update them if they are inpatient). Document. Your nurse think your patient is "not looking good", even if you go into the room and see a perfectly stable patient, go in the chart, write about the encounter. Because heaven forbid the patient DOES tank 25 minutes later and you didn't document. You can't say, "Well he/she was clinically stable 25 minutes ago."

It probably takes 2x as long to write the note on a patient encounter than it does for you to see & examine the patient. You might get quicker at it over time, but guess what you'll be expected to see even more patients (intern vs. resident vs. attending). Like Law2Doc described so perfectly, it doesn't end. It's not like, "Oh once I'm a resident it gets easier" or "Once I'm an attending, I'm cruising".

Your motivations are your own thing, but the constant and common denominator to EVERYONE who is going to be a physician is the sheer amount of documentation required of you. You are also a stenographer and need to "show your work" for everything!

In Accounting, I worked in Audit so this is customary for me to deal with thousands and yes I mean THOUSANDS of documents on a daily basis. I think you provide nice context but since most people in this forum are non trads, many are already acclimated to filing paperwork and never ending documentation. This would probably scare a pre med student who has never held a real job but wouldn’t personally bother me(used to it).

 

[GenSurgONLY]

That's a reasonable question you're asking. I'm a married 4th year with two little kids, anxiously awaiting match day to see if I make it into ortho, with family med as my backup specialty. Is med school brutal and damn hard? for sure. Is it worth it? overall, yes. I had an awesome career beforehand, but also worked some pretty crappy jobs. I'm happy I've chosen this route, overall I've actually had a pretty enjoyable experience and don't feel like I've missed out on much in terms of family life. I have had to sacrifice pretty much all of my personal hobbies and social life, but that's okay, I know that stuff will come back again when I'm an attending. While parenthood makes school harder and vice versa, I feel that having kids has helped me do as well as I have because it helps me focus very well. When I get my relatively limited time to study compared to my peers, I STUDY. I don't goof off, I focus like a laser and get it done. I've enjoyed the material we've learned, which makes the studying feel a little more tolerable. Third and fourth years have been super fun overall, getting to talk to patients, do some procedures, feel a little closer to being a doctor. If I make it into ortho, I'll be so stoked, that's the coolest job in the world in my opinion.

Don't let other people's negativity deter you. I've noticed a large portion of my classmates are very neurotic and negative people who would probably be whiny and unhappy doing anything. However, med school is really harder than I ever imagined, and there have been plenty of times where I question what the hell I've done with my life. There's plenty of hardships besides the obvious difficulty of the course work that come with school that I did not anticipate that you really need to consider.
- finances. with a family, this has been a constant stressor. COA is calculated for single people. We live decent but frugally, but still have had to take max COA, and also borrow from family. Honestly, if we couldn't borrow from family, it just would not be possible financially. Of course the massive debt (probably will be around 400k) is pretty daunting.
- travelling for audition rotations for first half of fourth year. Being away from my wife and small kids, missing my youngest's first steps really sucked hard.
- being the clueless outsider in a new environment every month during rotations. It sucks feeling like a ******* most of the time and trying to fit in other people's work places.
- constant stress about match day. Especially now, it seriously takes everything I have to be present and not freak out with anxiety every day.

I'm sure there's others that I can't think of right now. Again, I'm happy to be here and feel grateful to have the opprotunity to be a doctor. Any specialty is far better than most jobs out there that people have to do every day. Now I just worry about what ortho residency will be like. With psych, you'll at least have a pretty chill residency. And it's a pretty cool field, I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. Be sure to keep a good attitude and maintain perspective. Check out some of my past posts for more advice and thoughts on being a non-trad in med school. Good luck with it all!

This!:
I’ve already encountered some on the medical board here. I think many of them just have no clue what being a non trad is about. I feel like screaming, I have work experience, married with kids and own a home, I can handle the surgical hours. Been doing it for years as a mother and not getting paid for it either. Lol

 

[Astharia]

This!:
I’ve already encountered some on the medical board here. I think many of them just have no clue what being a non trad is about. I feel like screaming, I have work experience, married with kids and own a home, I can handle the surgical hours. Been doing it for years as a mother and not getting paid for it either. Lol

Word. "How are you going to feel missing your kids soccer game to deliver a baby?"

Same way I feel when I don't have time to enroll my kid into soccer as a premed/grad student with three kids.

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