Northstate again...

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mountainbobs

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I'm hoping to start a new conversation about CNU that has a little different tone. Looking through past posts it seems things quickly devolve into personal attacks and "northsplaining" (love that term). First off, yes this is a new account and my first post. I felt I was too easily identified from my other account. But I'm not here to blindly defend CNU. I did interview recently and had a really good experience. I was impressed by the school and the students and wanted to discuss a few issues.

The main criticisms against CNU are very valid. Everyone, current students included, agrees that the loan situation is bad. They are advocating for change, but it does not seem likely. The main reason given by the school is that federal loans would require compliance and increased administration costs. I find this to be a very unsatisfactory answer, and it just leads to speculation about the school's true motivations.

They fielded the first class in 8 weeks with wildly inappropriate demographics. This is true and no reasonable person disputes it. They likely did it to start a cash flow and satisfy investors.

These issues have been discussed at length and I hope to avoid them here. I acknowledge they are serious issues. What I hope to discuss is the quality of the education, the opinion of PDs, and the likely outcome for CNU students.

The class they fielded in 8 weeks performed at the national average on step 1. The current M1s were selected from over 6,000 applications. It seems likely that step 1 scores will go up for CNU. The students I met were impressive. Something like 24% of California applicants have to matriculate outside the state. It seems to me that CNU is mostly drawing from this pool. I talked to multiple students who chose CNU over another acceptance. The idea that this school only gets students who couldn't get in anywhere else is false. To me this says that the preclinical education at CNU is good, or at least adequate.

Someone posted that there are no standardized patients at this school. That is completely false. Standardized patients start in year one and I think are every other week. Additionally, the simulation center was very nice. Sidebar - the anatomy lab was the nicest I've seen (n=3). Rotation sites are at the 3 largest hospital systems in Sacramento, UC Davis excluded, and are shared with students from Touro, Drexel, and USC. I think it's reasonable to say the clinical education here is good too, or at least adequate.

All that was a lot of text to get to my questions:

Is it possible that the LCME is functioning as designed? The school has added faculty and corrected admissions mistakes. On the LCME site there has been a pending survey for quite some time. Does anyone know when the decision to advance them to provisional status will be made?

To what degree can the students drive their own success? Every doctor I've talked to said that where you go to school doesn't really matter. PDs list school prestige low on their priority list. How are students from new schools typically evaluated come match time? And how will the for-profit status of CNU affect the first gradating class? Or will it? I only know one PD but she said it would not be a factor for her.

@gyngyn You said the PDs you interact with are skeptical of CNU students. The post I'm referring to was from 2016, before the fist class had started their clerkships. The school says they have been getting great feedback from rotation sites and the early focus on clinical skills has been paying off. Is there any truth to this? Do you know if the reputation of CNU students is changing at all? I would especially appreciate your insights.

The common wisdom here is MD > DO, in that it keeps more options open. Is this still the case with CNU?

@Med Ed You said the institution was likely in financial trouble. I think the decision to hastily field the inaugural class speaks to this. Do you know of any new developments in this arena?

Any student that elects to go here has to be well-informed about the loan options. The interests rates are sometimes better, sometimes worse than fed loans. It sucks to not have income-based repayment or PSLF. That said, for most people it still seems like a small risk worth taking. If it were your only acceptance, would you go there?

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Most of the OOS PD's I've talked to have never heard of this school and are surprised that a for-profit MD school exists.
CA PD's are acutely aware of the school's deficits.
 
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I'm hoping to start a new conversation about CNU that has a little different tone. Looking through past posts it seems things quickly devolve into personal attacks and "northsplaining" (love that term). First off, yes this is a new account and my first post. I felt I was too easily identified from my other account. But I'm not here to blindly defend CNU. I did interview recently and had a really good experience. I was impressed by the school and the students and wanted to discuss a few issues.

The main criticisms against CNU are very valid. Everyone, current students included, agrees that the loan situation is bad. They are advocating for change, but it does not seem likely. The main reason given by the school is that federal loans would require compliance and increased administration costs. I find this to be a very unsatisfactory answer, and it just leads to speculation about the school's true motivations.

They fielded the first class in 8 weeks with wildly inappropriate demographics. This is true and no reasonable person disputes it. They likely did it to start a cash flow and satisfy investors.

?

The bolded alone is quite telling, and damning. No speculation is needed.
 
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It's a carribean school in the US, that's all. I bet that's how well they'll match.
 
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Most of the OOS PD's I've talked to have never heard of this school and are surprised that a for-profit MD school exists.
CA PD's are acutely aware of the school's deficits.

Thanks for the reply. Would you elaborate on what that might mean for a student come match time? Would it preclude PDs from considering a student from CNU?

Also, would you clarify what you mean by deficits? Do you think there are deficits in the quality of the education? Or just with the administration? Or both?
 
The bolded alone is quite telling, and damning. No speculation is needed.

Fair enough. No speculation needed, I agree.

The school places the interests of investors over the interest of the students. But I don't think it necessarily means they don't care at all about students. And I'm not sure that's exclusive with providing a quality medical education. Isn't that what LCME is there to ensure?

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. These are honest questions I'm trying to figure out.
 
It's a carribean school in the US, that's all. I bet that's how well they'll match.

That's the sort of internet hyperbole I'm hoping to avoid.

I think the attrition rate of Caribbean schools is something like 50%. So far CNU hasn't lost anyone and step 1 scores were on par with national average. That's really the only objective measure we have that I'm aware of. Would love it if someone has more info.
 
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Thanks for the reply. Would you elaborate on what that might mean for a student come match time? Would it preclude PDs from considering a student from CNU?

Also, would you clarify what you mean by deficits? Do you think there are deficits in the quality of the education? Or just with the administration? Or both?
I'm referring to the many deficits discussed in the threads you described in your OP.
Profound deficits in administration are inevitably reflected in the quality of education.
 
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I'm referring to the many deficits discussed in the threads you described in your OP.
Profound deficits in administration are inevitably reflected in the quality of education.

I don't see why that would be true. They seem like separate issues. If the curriculum is preparing their students well, and the students are rotating in quality sites, then I don't see where is deficit is. The school is also being led by Dean Silva who seems to be universally well regarded.
 
They are also affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, which is starting its own medical school. Does that presumably mean that Northstate, Drexel, BU, etc. will lose these rotations?

Maybe, but I doubt it. The kaiser school is opening outside of LA. ~6 hour drive from Sacramento.
 
I don't see why that would be true. They seem like separate issues. If the curriculum is preparing their students well, and the students are rotating in quality sites, then I don't see where is deficit is. The school is also being led by Dean Silva who seems to be universally well regarded.
A medical school administration is integral to the delivery of a quality education. It includes everything from development and implementation of curriculum to acquisition and distribution of human and monetary resources. It is not peripheral to the educational mission.
 
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@mountainbobs I think one of the main answers is that there is still too much up in the air right now about the long-term potential and goals of the program. Medical school is an expensive proposition and a school's reluctance to make federal aid available will always be a red-flag.

As far as "student success", that's an ever changing proposition. I'm an M2 and just finishing a Derm/Micro/Rheum block on Friday. I've gone to zero lectures and only watched a handful. All my study has come from board prep material like First Aid, Sketchy, Pathoma, etc. A large portion of the student experience for pre-clinical years has changed with access to online material. Scoring well on Step 1 can be done independent of classroom education.

For me the real value a med school has is in its clinical sites/faculty and their relationships with PDs and guidance through the residency process. So far CNU hasn't show what sort of match rate and success they'll have. I also know nothing of the exposure to residency directors students get. As someone going EM, we need separate letters for PDs and if your host institution doesn't have one, that's no good.
 
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Fair enough. No speculation needed, I agree.

The school places the interests of investors over the interest of the students. But I don't think it necessarily means they don't care at all about students. And I'm not sure that's exclusive with providing a quality medical education. Isn't that what LCME is there to ensure?

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. These are honest questions I'm trying to figure out.


Let's make something very clear: the fact that the school places the interests of investors over the interest of the students means that EVERYTHING they do is suspect, and, in fact renders whatever they do for the students almost irrelevant.

They are also affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, which is starting its own medical school. Does that presumably mean that Northstate, Drexel, BU, etc. will lose these rotations?
Med schools routinely poach rotation sites from one another. We may very well lose an important site to another new school, so we're trying to establish new sites. But I know that Dartmouth poached some Bay Area sites from UCSF a number of years ago, and one of the new MI schools poached sites from U MI. I'm pretty sure that UCD lost a site or two to CNU.
 
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A medical school administration is integral to the delivery of a quality education. It includes everything from development and implementation of curriculum to acquisition and distribution of human and monetary resources. It is not peripheral to the educational mission.

I see. That makes sense. Again, I'm not here to just defend Northstate, but most of those criticisms stemmed from the poor handling of the first class. Whether through their own volition or the insistence of LCME, they seem to have corrected many of those mistakes. From my understanding the loan issue is entirely on the shoulders of Alvin Cheung, and despite pressure from faculty and students he is uncompromising.
 
@mountainbobs I think one of the main answers is that there is still too much up in the air right now about the long-term potential and goals of the program. Medical school is an expensive proposition and a school's reluctance to make federal aid available will always be a red-flag.

As far as "student success", that's an ever changing proposition. I'm an M2 and just finishing a Derm/Micro/Rheum block on Friday. I've gone to zero lectures and only watched a handful. All my study has come from board prep material like First Aid, Sketchy, Pathoma, etc. A large portion of the student experience for pre-clinical years has changed with access to online material. Scoring well on Step 1 can be done independent of classroom education.

For me the real value a med school has is in its clinical sites/faculty and their relationships with PDs and guidance through the residency process. So far CNU hasn't show what sort of match rate and success they'll have. I also know nothing of the exposure to residency directors students get. As someone going EM, we need separate letters for PDs and if your host institution doesn't have one, that's no good.

Thanks for pointing that out. That's something I haven't really thought about.

Agree that CNU is a big unknown. I'm just trying to evaluate the risk, but it's difficult to get anyone to acknowledge that there might be some positive things about the school. If you just looked at SDN you would think CNU is evil incarnate, but that didn't match with my experience. There are good students and good faculty at CNU. The business decision of Dr. Cheung doesn't affect these relationships, and my feeling is that students will match well and be successful. After a few years I think there will be a gradual shift in opinion, but we'll just have to wait and see.
 
Let's make something very clear: the fact that the school places the interests of investors over the interest of the students means that EVERYTHING they do is suspect, and, in fact renders whatever they do for the students almost irrelevant.


Med schools routinely poach rotation sites from one another. We may very well lose an important site to another new school, so we're trying to establish new sites. But I know that Dartmouth poached some Bay Area sites from UCSF a number of years ago, and one of the new MI schools poached sites from U MI. I'm pretty sure that UCD lost a site or two to CNU.

Drexel lost Monmouth to RWJ this year.
 
Let's make something very clear: the fact that the school places the interests of investors over the interest of the students means that EVERYTHING they do is suspect, and, in fact renders whatever they do for the students almost irrelevant.

I wouldn't draw that line in the sand. There are certainly other schools that don't act in the best interest of students. Charging $88,000 for tuition comes to mind. The application cycle plays out over a year and DO schools give you 2 weeks to put down $2000. Hard to believe that's motivated by anything other than profit. I not saying these things are equivalent, but there are a lot of faculty who are attaching themselves to CNU and putting in a lot of work to make it a success, and I wouldn't call what they're doing almost irrelevant.
 
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I wouldn't draw that line in the sand. There are certainly other schools that don't act in the best interest of students. Charging $88,000 for tuition comes to mind. The application cycle plays out over a year and DO schools give you 2 weeks to put down $2000. Hard to believe that's motivated by anything other than profit. I not saying these things are equivalent, but there are a lot of faculty who are attaching themselves to CNU and putting in a lot of work to make it a success, and I wouldn't call what they're doing almost irrelevant.

Yeah, those things are not even in the same ballpark as not giving your students access to federal loans. That’s just ****ing ridiculous.
 
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Oh, nothing like moral equivalency.
I wouldn't draw that line in the sand. There are certainly other schools that don't act in the best interest of students. Charging $88,000 for tuition comes to mind. The application cycle plays out over a year and DO schools give you 2 weeks to put down $2000. Hard to believe that's motivated by anything other than profit. I not saying these things are equivalent, but there are a lot of faculty who are attaching themselves to CNU and putting in a lot of work to make it a success, and I wouldn't call what they're doing almost irrelevant.
 
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I see. That makes sense. Again, I'm not here to just defend Northstate, but most of those criticisms stemmed from the poor handling of the first class. Whether through their own volition or the insistence of LCME, they seem to have corrected many of those mistakes. From my understanding the loan issue is entirely on the shoulders of Alvin Cheung, and despite pressure from faculty and students he is uncompromising.
The fact that the benefit of shareholders is held above the benefit of students is undeniable. It qualifies Northstate as the lowest form of MD school on US soil.
 
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Oh, nothing like moral equivalency.
Yeah, those things are not even in the same ballpark as not giving your students access to federal loans. That’s just ****ing ridiculous.

I said they weren't equivalent, but I apologize for the implied comparison. Obviously denying students federal loans is much, much worse.
 
The fact that the benefit of shareholders is held above the benefit of students is undeniable. It qualifies Northstate as the lowest form of MD school on US soil.
Hopefully the LCME shuts them down soon

Great! This is what I'm interested in. I would agree that they are the worst choice of MD school in the US, but where does that put them? Prior to opening a common saying was there are no bad medical schools. Is this still true? Would you rank this school over a DO school?

I'm very interested in the next LCME survey. Do you know anything?
 
Great! This is what I'm interested in. I would agree that they are the worst choice of MD school in the US, but where does that put them? Prior to opening a common saying was there are no bad medical schools. Is this still true? Would you rank this school over a DO school?

I'm very interested in the next LCME survey. Do you know anything?

DO is ranked way higher than Caribbean, and since this school is generally considered to be the Carib in the US, probably not.
 
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Great! This is what I'm interested in. I would agree that they are the worst choice of MD school in the US, but where does that put them? Prior to opening a common saying was there are no bad medical schools. Is this still true? Would you rank this school over a DO school?

I'm very interested in the next LCME survey. Do you know anything?
I cannot recommend CNU. It is the only US MD school I cannot recommend.
The LCME has been tighter lipped than usual regarding their recent visit. I suspect it has something to do with Mr. Cheung's lawyers...
 
Saying they're a Caribbean school in the US is, to use your word, ridiculous.

Caribbean schools are not subject to the regulation of LCME.
Northstate chooses 90 people from 6000 applications. Caribbean schools take pretty much anyone.
Northstate has not lost anyone to attrition. Caribbean schools lose half.
Northstate students rotate in quality sites shared by UC Davis, USC, Drexel, and Touro
 
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Great! This is what I'm interested in. I would agree that they are the worst choice of MD school in the US, but where does that put them? Prior to opening a common saying was there are no bad medical schools. Is this still true? Would you rank this school over a DO school?

I'm very interested in the next LCME survey. Do you know anything?
Let's put it this way: CNU is on LCME'S radar, and not in a good way. Pissing off accreditors is not a good idea.
 
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I cannot recommend CNU. It is the only US MD school I cannot recommend.
The LCME has been tighter lipped than usual regarding their recent visit. I suspect it has something to do with Mr. Cheung's lawyers...

Thank you.
 
Let's put it this way: CNU is on LCME'S radar, and not in a good way. Pissing off accreditors is not a good idea.

Good to know, thanks.

Just curious, who are the members of the LCME? Are these people you know and interact with? Practicing or retired physicians?
 
Saying they're a Caribbean school in the US is, to use your word, ridiculous.

Caribbean schools are not subject to the regulation of LCME.
Northstate chooses 90 people from 6000 applications. Caribbean schools take pretty much anyone.
Northstate has not lost anyone to attrition. Caribbean schools lose half.
Northstate students rotate in quality sites shared by UC Davis, USC, Drexel, and Touro

I didn't. See post 4.

Also, it's not that ridiculous. It's a for-profit school that puts profits before education and actively denies its students access to federal loans to save money.
 
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Maybe I don't understand the process but how does not allowing federal loans prioritize profits? Wouldn't the school get paid either way? Barring Fed loans just means a higher interest rate if a private loan is taken or their student body is wealthy and paying out of pocket, no?
 
There are some SDN attendings/Adcoms who are well tied into what LCME thinks and does. I listen to them.
Gotcha. I didn't mean for that to be questioning, I believed it. Are you guys reasonably confident they would shut down Northstate if called for? Similarly, if they give their seal of approval would that mean anything to you?
 
I cannot recommend CNU. It is the only US MD school I cannot recommend.
The LCME has been tighter lipped than usual regarding their recent visit. I suspect it has something to do with Mr. Cheung's lawyers...

I concur with my learned colleague on this. I

If the choice is CNU and either Touro-NY or LUCOM (the only two DO schools I can't recommend), my advice is to improve your app and re-apply.
 
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I not saying these things are equivalent
I apologize for the implied comparison.
But you just did draw the parallel, which means you believe there's sufficient equivalency to bolster your argument. And there was no "implied comparison." The comparison was quite clear, and pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest. You need to think about what you're saying, make reasonable comparisons that illustrate rational points, and have the balls to stand behind your own arguments when you meet resistance.

Would you rank this school over a DO school?
Absolutely not.

I cannot recommend CNU. It is the only US MD school I cannot recommend.
Ouch.

If the choice is CNU and either Touro-NY or LUCOM (the only two DO schools I can't recommend), my advice is to improve your app and re-apply.
Double ouch.
 
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I don't mean to shock you, but the LCME has this thing called a website.
Is this part of that World Wide Internet thing I keep hearing about?

grandma-internet.jpg
 
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Maybe I don't understand the process but how does not allowing federal loans prioritize profits? Wouldn't the school get paid either way? Barring Fed loans just means a higher interest rate if a private loan is taken or their student body is wealthy and paying out of pocket, no?

Federal loans are better for students, but the school will not go through the process to be eligible for them because it costs them more money.
 
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But you just did draw the parallel, which means you believe there's sufficient equivalency to bolster your argument. And there was no "implied comparison." The comparison was quite clear, and pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest. You need to think about what you're saying, make reasonable comparisons that illustrate rational points, and have the balls to stand behind your own arguments when you meet resistance.

K. The point I was trying to make has been lost. I don't think everything that CNU does from this point on is irrelevant. Had I mustered up the balls to debate this super important point the thread would have been derailed. I chose to move on. I was seeking information from people who know more than me, not trying to engage in an anonymous internet debate.
 
K. The point I was trying to make has been lost. I don't think everything that CNU does from this point on is irrelevant. Had I mustered up the balls to debate this super important point the thread would have been derailed. I chose to move on. I was seeking information from people who know more than me, not trying to engage in an anonymous internet debate.
They did give you the information, it may not be what you want to hear but that’s their honest recommendation. What are you even saying.
 
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Maybe I don't understand the process but how does not allowing federal loans prioritize profits? Wouldn't the school get paid either way? Barring Fed loans just means a higher interest rate if a private loan is taken or their student body is wealthy and paying out of pocket, no?

You can find a handy presentation on what it takes to accept federal student loan money (aka become a Title IV schools) here.

Northstate is peculiar in that it's not an outgrowth of an existing institution of higher education. It's a freestanding pair of professional schools that operate in one of the rare niches where not accepting federal loans doesn't kill enrollment. Would it cost them a couple of hires to manage a more conventional financial aid office? Sure. Should that be a deal breaker on whether or not to accept federal dollars? Only if they prioritize their entrepreneurial spirit above the interests of those they purport to serve.
 
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Side note, but how do all these new MD schools keep opening up? There's this, and that new Nova school, and one in Michigan I think. Can anyone open a medical school if they meet LCME guidelines? What's to stop my community hospital in po-dunk nowhere-ville from opening a school if they have the money?

I really don't think all these new schools are a good thing because residency numbers aren't increasing. Given, a know a lot of spots still go to IMGs, but I think that's probably fine and we don't need a ton of new schools to take those spots from them.
 
Side note, but how do all these new MD schools keep opening up? There's this, and that new Nova school, and one in Michigan I think.
Good planning and lots of investment. The LCME website has criteria for what medical education should look like.

Yes, and nothing, I suppose. BTW, Kaiser is opening a school in Southern CA, and I think so is Arrowland [sp?] hospital. But really, there has to be a decent rationale for opening a med school, especially on the MD side, since there is a significant requirement for research. MD schools (other than CNU) aren't going to turn a profit on tuition. A decent academic research department can generate more funding in indirects from R01s and R21s than they can from the tuition of a 100+ students!
Can anyone open a medical school if they meet LCME guidelines? What's to stop my community hospital in po-dunk nowhere-ville from opening a school if they have the money?

Right now there are still more residency slots that med school (DO and MD) to fill them. IMGs will be the ones to lose out on the squeeze, followed by students with red flags. Do keep in mind that if to many of a school's grads can't find jobs, that school will be sanctioned by COCA or LCME, and they'll either lose seats, [or in the worst case] close their doors. Medicine is at least more far-sighted than the Law.

I really don't think all these new schools are a good thing because residency numbers aren't increasing. Given, a know a lot of spots still go to IMGs, but I think that's probably fine and we don't need a ton of new schools to take those spots from them.
 
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Side note, but how do all these new MD schools keep opening up? There's this, and that new Nova school, and one in Michigan I think. Can anyone open a medical school if they meet LCME guidelines? What's to stop my community hospital in po-dunk nowhere-ville from opening a school if they have the money?

If your community hospital in po-dunk nowhere-ville has a faculty and about $100 million in the bank then sure.

Of the allopathic schools that have been accredited since 2000, only two have done it without a university affiliation: The Commonwealth Medical College and Northstate. The former fell into dire financial straits, went on probation, and ultimately got bought up by Geisinger, which is a massive health system. The jury is still out on the latter, although even if they are in the black I suspect the non-med programs will be subsidizing the medical school for some time to come. Kaiser appears to be going it alone, although I am not concerned about their financial reserves.

The number of residency positions has actually crept up, as various hospitals have decided to open new programs and non-federal funding has become more significant. Essentially a growing number of states is realizing that they will have to pitch into GME funding in order to grow their respective physician workforces.
 
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You can find a handy presentation on what it takes to accept federal student loan money (aka become a Title IV schools)

Northstate is peculiar in that it's not an outgrowth of an existing institution of higher education. It's a freestanding pair of professional schools that operate in one of the rare niches where not accepting federal loans doesn't kill enrollment. Would it cost them a couple of hires to manage a more conventional financial aid office? Sure. Should that be a deal breaker on whether or not to accept federal dollars? Only if they prioritize their entrepreneurial spirit above the interests of those they purport to serve.

After looking through that presentation I'm wondering if the reason they don't allow Title IV funds is because of their tuition practices when the college of pharmacy opened. One of the criteria is that the owner, institution, and CEO must not have committed fraud involving Federal, state, or local government funds. It seems when the college of pharmacy opened they were unaccredited and as a work around they had students apply for aid to a college in Michigan. They then redistributed the funds to Northstate. To be perfectly clear - I'm not saying this is true. These are allegations. There does seem to be student corroboration of this over in the pharmacy forums.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to post links. If you do a search for "alvin cheung northstate fraud" you will find a wrongful termination suit from former professor Bradley Brazill. In one of the documents Professor Brazill details the tuition scheme he brought to the attention of an accrediting organization. I should say that I don't know the outcome of this or any other litigation and I'm not saying the allegations are true. Everyone must decide that for themselves.

I'd be surprised if faculty/advisors here aren't aware of this. Maybe there are legal reasons to not bring it up, but when the next SDN poster asks about applying to CNU, please consider including an alleged history of tuition fraud in your list of reasons to not attend.
 
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After looking through that presentation I'm wondering if the reason they don't allow Title IV funds is because of their tuition practices when the college of pharmacy opened. One of the criteria is that the owner, institution, and CEO must not have committed fraud involving Federal, state, or local government funds. It seems when the college of pharmacy opened they were unaccredited and as a work around they had students apply for aid to a college in Michigan. They then redistributed the funds to Northstate. To be perfectly clear - I'm not saying this is true. These are allegations. There does seem to be student corroboration of this over in the pharmacy forums.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to post links. If you do a search for "alvin cheung northstate fraud" you will find a wrongful termination suit from former professor Bradley Brazill. In one of the documents Professor Brazill details the tuition scheme he brought to the attention of an accrediting organization. I should say that I don't know the outcome of this or any other litigation and I'm not saying the allegations are true. Everyone must decide that for themselves.

I'd be surprised if faculty/advisors here aren't aware of this. Maybe there are legal reasons to not bring it up, but when the next SDN poster asks about applying to CNU, please consider including an alleged history of tuition fraud in your list of reasons to not attend.

Yep. Just another reason not to waste money applying there.
 
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Medicine is at least more far-sighted than the Law.
Oh, so true! I keep having to explain to my lawyer friends how med schools put the bottleneck up front, not after graduation and $$$$$ tuition. Although, have you seen how the CA Bar passage rate has fallen? Around 60% when I took it, down to 35% this last round.
 
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