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MD Rapper said:... but I've been excited about being accepted to a US allopathic school this cycle, and I've never looked back about my decision to withdraw all my D.O. applications.
EctopicFetus said:..generally its not a good idea to go on here and incite people.
MD Rapper said:Yikes... I hope Ifellinapothole's (a known and well regarded troll on SDN)response doesn't invalidate my initial post.
Just in case you were referring to me, I'm being serious... you can check my posting history, I don't troll.
Good luck in the MD world, where there are absolutely no chips on anyone's shoulders.MD Rapper said:In general, the "chip on our shoulder" mentality really turns me off from the D.O. profession
me454555 said:As an MS3 in a DO school, I pretty much agree w/the OP. I hate the separatist attitude of the AOA and the way people say "DOs are just much more than OMM. We treat the whole pt, blah blah blah". Its total bs b/c once you enter the clinic, you peform to "standard of care", which is generally the same regardless of the letters at the end of your name. The one exception is an OMM specialist.
Guy comes in w/CP both MDs and DOs ask the same Qs and order the same tests. Yeah some MDs have terrible bediside mannor and some DOs are great w/pts but the reverse is definatly true as well.
MD Rapper said:Yikes... I hope Ifellinapothole's (a known and well regarded troll on SDN)response doesn't invalidate my initial post.
Just in case you were referring to me, I'm being serious... you can check my posting history, I don't troll.
exlawgrrl said:there are differences, and it's cool for people in the osteopathic community to be proud of their differences.
Stating facts is a little different.Sundarban1 said:Where is the search function when you need it?
EctopicFetus said:Stating facts is a little different.
Also to whoever compared the DO separatist bit to women and African-Americans your whole logic is misplaced because doing a DO is self-selection and being a woman and a minority is not..
To sundarban
Jinyaoysiu said:Yes it's self-selection, but that has nothing to do with the main point(hint: history and current prejudice). Obviously you need some help in reading comprehension. Could someone help him on that?
docbill said:
An evaluation of performance on the certifying examination of the American Board of Internal Medicine in the 1980s noted that although physicians from osteopathic medical schools did not do as well as those from allopathic programs, overall they "did well" and could be an "untapped reservoir of talented physicians" for internal medicine.
25 years later, does this statement still hold. I hope that DO grads are now more at par to allop grads.
And if there is value in therapy that is uniquely osteopathic -- that is, based on osteopathic manipulation or other techniques -- why should its use be limited to osteopaths?
Immm Bananas.. so true
Shodddy18 said:So what is it with these threads? What is with the incessant need for non osteopaths to point out what they think is wrong with our profession?
MD Rapper said:I know this thread may become controversial, but I wanted to share my opinion on what I feel plagues the D.O. profession...
It is obvious that D.O.'s are fully qualified and competent (even more so than M.D.'s in certain respects), but I truly feel that the osteopathic profession makes itself look secondary when it asks questions such as the following during interviews:
"I see you're applying to M.D. schools as well... why should we believe that you'll attend our school if you get into one of those?"
The D.O. profession also carries around a separatist attitude in general, which is okay, but in doing so, they often do not give themselves the benefit of the doubt... as if they continually have something to prove to somebody. They might actually get more resepect from M.D.'s if they stopped harping on all the differences/why the profession is better.
What I'm trying to say is that... osteopathic physicians and schools seem to hold a larger bias against themselves than I (or others might) hold against them. There is an automatic assumption on their part that I (or others)inherently regard the osteopathic profession as inferior to the allopathic one. What if I didn't know all the politics and had always regarded M.D's and D.O's to be fully equal? After all, they are both full-fledged physicians that practice in all specialties.... the osteopathic attitude makes me aware that there IS a difference... which continually leads to the question "so is osteopathic or allopathic better?"
In general, the "chip on our shoulder" mentality really turns me off from the D.O. profession and I'm sure it does for a few others as well. I think they should lay off of it and stop asking "why D.O." questions and continue to talk more about their similarities with the allopathic profession.
Maybe I'm being a bit critical... but I've been excited about being accepted to a US allopathic school this cycle, and I've never looked back about my decision to withdraw all my D.O. applications. If I had not gotten in to a US allo school, I think I would've felt more comfortable going to a foreign school because at least the M.D. profession is unquestionably established. I don't mean to bring up the whole D.O vs. foreign debate... but I don't think I would've enjoyed being a part of the D.O. community if I had decided to go to an osteopathic school.
exlawgrrl said:I've got to admit that I wonder about this one, too. It sort of feels like me going to a Roman Catholic discussion board and posting about why I'm ex-catholic. Discussion's good and all, but these threads always bring out people with very strong anti-osteopathic sentiments, which doesn't seem appropriate for a pre-osteo support forum.
Shodddy18 said:So what is it with these threads? What is with the incessant need for non osteopaths to point out what they think is wrong with our profession?
johnnymat said:Great thought. I am currently very interested in applying to osteopathic schoosl, and this one issue is my only reservation to going the D.O route. Can anyone reubut or comment further? Why is the distinction necessary if the curriculum is largely the same
Teufelhunden said:I agree with everything me454555 said above. I've been ranting about this for years. Actually, the AOA finally changed (very recently, I think) their motto - they nixed the "treating people, not just symptoms" b.s. and adopted "Treating Our Family And Yours" which isn't much better, but at least it doesn't promote a contentious attitude towards MDs. Again, I could rant...but the above post pretty much sums up how I feel.
Darth Asclepius said:Please don't think I am criticizing DO's... I think that it is a problem that some DO's will in one breath say "we're the same as MD's" and in the next breath say (and I have literally heard this several times from DO students I invited to speak to my old pre-med organization) "we're better than MD's because all they want to do is write prescriptions and treat symptoms, not patients". I don't think you can be "the same" and "better". I think attitudes/statements like that reinforce an unneccesary divide between DO's and MD's. I think the divide itself is mostly propagated by MD's, but that when DO's make statements like that (which I equate to mean you're a bad doctor since any good doctor does not treat their patients like a paycheck), it only makes matters worse. I think OMM might be a useful tool, but that DO's are essentially the same as MD's with an extra tool to help their patients and that although it might be part of the DO philosophy to treat patients and not symptoms, any good MD does the same thing (so woohoo for the AOA getting rid of that slogan). I've been told (from DO students) that MD's never touch their patients (not true) and just want to write a prescription and kick them out the door (true of bad MD's, but I suspect there are bad DO's out there that do the same thing).
MD's do stupid crap too "We're better than DO's because you need a higher MCAT score to get in allopathic schools" (yeah, and I really care about your SAT score too, buddy). I think attitudes like that are a way for a below average MD student or phsycian to justifying why they are better than someone else, when if they really wanted to be better than someone else (DO or MD), they would focus on being a better doctor. Past accomplishments (your undergrad GPA or MCAT score) don't mean much. What matters is if you're a good doctor today. (Note: I know not all DO's had lower MCAT scores, I'm just illustrating the stupid MD mentality on the issue).
I guess the point is, MD's don't want to hear that they are inferior because MD's care more about symptoms than patients and DO's don't want to hear they are inferior because it's "easier" to get get into a DO school. Both are not necessarily true and both draw an unneccesary line between DO and MD that I don't think should exist. I'm not saying you should eliminate the DO for MD because I do think there are small differences, but that it's more like getting a cupcake with chocolate icing and another one with vanilla icing. They are both yummy, accomplish the same thing, but have subtle diffences (but most people would be happy to be given either cupcake). Perhaps I'm just hungry and should go have a cupcake?
Darth Asclepius said:Please don't think I am criticizing DO's... I think that it is a problem that some DO's will in one breath say "we're the same as MD's" and in the next breath say (and I have literally heard this several times from DO students I invited to speak to my old pre-med organization) "we're better than MD's because all they want to do is write prescriptions and treat symptoms, not patients". I don't think you can be "the same" and "better". I think attitudes/statements like that reinforce an unneccesary divide between DO's and MD's. I think the divide itself is mostly propagated by MD's, but that when DO's make statements like that (which I equate to mean you're a bad doctor since any good doctor does not treat their patients like a paycheck), it only makes matters worse. I think OMM might be a useful tool, but that DO's are essentially the same as MD's with an extra tool to help their patients and that although it might be part of the DO philosophy to treat patients and not symptoms, any good MD does the same thing (so woohoo for the AOA getting rid of that slogan). I've been told (from DO students) that MD's never touch their patients (not true) and just want to write a prescription and kick them out the door (true of bad MD's, but I suspect there are bad DO's out there that do the same thing).
MD's do stupid crap too "We're better than DO's because you need a higher MCAT score to get in allopathic schools" (yeah, and I really care about your SAT score too, buddy). I think attitudes like that are a way for a below average MD student or phsycian to justifying why they are better than someone else, when if they really wanted to be better than someone else (DO or MD), they would focus on being a better doctor. Past accomplishments (your undergrad GPA or MCAT score) don't mean much. What matters is if you're a good doctor today. (Note: I know not all DO's had lower MCAT scores, I'm just illustrating the stupid MD mentality on the issue).
I guess the point is, MD's don't want to hear that they are inferior because MD's care more about symptoms than patients and DO's don't want to hear they are inferior because it's "easier" to get get into a DO school. Both are not necessarily true and both draw an unneccesary line between DO and MD that I don't think should exist. I'm not saying you should eliminate the DO for MD because I do think there are small differences, but that it's more like getting a cupcake with chocolate icing and another one with vanilla icing. They are both yummy, accomplish the same thing, but have subtle diffences (but most people would be happy to be given either cupcake). Perhaps I'm just hungry and should go have a cupcake?
Well saidDarth Asclepius said:Please don't think I am criticizing DO's... I think that it is a problem that some DO's will in one breath say "we're the same as MD's" and in the next breath say (and I have literally heard this several times from DO students I invited to speak to my old pre-med organization) "we're better than MD's because all they want to do is write prescriptions and treat symptoms, not patients". I don't think you can be "the same" and "better". I think attitudes/statements like that reinforce an unneccesary divide between DO's and MD's. I think the divide itself is mostly propagated by MD's, but that when DO's make statements like that (which I equate to mean you're a bad doctor since any good doctor does not treat their patients like a paycheck), it only makes matters worse. I think OMM might be a useful tool, but that DO's are essentially the same as MD's with an extra tool to help their patients and that although it might be part of the DO philosophy to treat patients and not symptoms, any good MD does the same thing (so woohoo for the AOA getting rid of that slogan). I've been told (from DO students) that MD's never touch their patients (not true) and just want to write a prescription and kick them out the door (true of bad MD's, but I suspect there are bad DO's out there that do the same thing).
MD's do stupid crap too "We're better than DO's because you need a higher MCAT score to get in allopathic schools" (yeah, and I really care about your SAT score too, buddy). I think attitudes like that are a way for a below average MD student or phsycian to justifying why they are better than someone else, when if they really wanted to be better than someone else (DO or MD), they would focus on being a better doctor. Past accomplishments (your undergrad GPA or MCAT score) don't mean much. What matters is if you're a good doctor today. (Note: I know not all DO's had lower MCAT scores, I'm just illustrating the stupid MD mentality on the issue).
I guess the point is, MD's don't want to hear that they are inferior because MD's care more about symptoms than patients and DO's don't want to hear they are inferior because it's "easier" to get get into a DO school. Both are not necessarily true and both draw an unneccesary line between DO and MD that I don't think should exist. I'm not saying you should eliminate the DO for MD because I do think there are small differences, but that it's more like getting a cupcake with chocolate icing and another one with vanilla icing. They are both yummy, accomplish the same thing, but have subtle diffences (but most people would be happy to be given either cupcake). Perhaps I'm just hungry and should go have a cupcake?
Darth Asclepius said:Please don't think I am criticizing DO's... I think that it is a problem that some DO's will in one breath say "we're the same as MD's" and in the next breath say (and I have literally heard this several times from DO students I invited to speak to my old pre-med organization) "we're better than MD's because all they want to do is write prescriptions and treat symptoms, not patients". I don't think you can be "the same" and "better". I think attitudes/statements like that reinforce an unneccesary divide between DO's and MD's. I think the divide itself is mostly propagated by MD's, but that when DO's make statements like that (which I equate to mean you're a bad doctor since any good doctor does not treat their patients like a paycheck), it only makes matters worse. I think OMM might be a useful tool, but that DO's are essentially the same as MD's with an extra tool to help their patients and that although it might be part of the DO philosophy to treat patients and not symptoms, any good MD does the same thing (so woohoo for the AOA getting rid of that slogan). I've been told (from DO students) that MD's never touch their patients (not true) and just want to write a prescription and kick them out the door (true of bad MD's, but I suspect there are bad DO's out there that do the same thing).
MD's do stupid crap too "We're better than DO's because you need a higher MCAT score to get in allopathic schools" (yeah, and I really care about your SAT score too, buddy). I think attitudes like that are a way for a below average MD student or phsycian to justifying why they are better than someone else, when if they really wanted to be better than someone else (DO or MD), they would focus on being a better doctor. Past accomplishments (your undergrad GPA or MCAT score) don't mean much. What matters is if you're a good doctor today. (Note: I know not all DO's had lower MCAT scores, I'm just illustrating the stupid MD mentality on the issue).
I guess the point is, MD's don't want to hear that they are inferior because MD's care more about symptoms than patients and DO's don't want to hear they are inferior because it's "easier" to get get into a DO school. Both are not necessarily true and both draw an unneccesary line between DO and MD that I don't think should exist. I'm not saying you should eliminate the DO for MD because I do think there are small differences, but that it's more like getting a cupcake with chocolate icing and another one with vanilla icing. They are both yummy, accomplish the same thing, but have subtle diffences (but most people would be happy to be given either cupcake). Perhaps I'm just hungry and should go have a cupcake?
Darth Asclepius said:Thanks USArmyDoc and jbone. I'm glad my point made sense
OSUdoc and OnMyWayThere, I'm stuck at school alone this Thanksgiving and I can't cook to save my life, so I guess I had food on my mind all day