Not even worth applying, is it?

[mimelim]

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Are you kidding? People would be much more inclined to have a healthy discussion with you if every one of your posts wasn't filled with condescension.
Yes, obviously I know what Step 1 is otherwise I wouldn't bother discussing it. 🙄

What is the point of telling someone not to apply to medical school at all when you know next to nothing about her application? Posting in thread after thread of hers just to comment about how poor her chances are is really unnecessary and not helpful, as other posters have pointed out to you.

This is pretty straight forward. This isn't condescension. You don't know anything about this topic and are arguing things that don't make any sense. Based on your posts in this thread, you don't have the slightest clue about what Step 1 is, its ramifications, or what "success" on it is. This isn't about being a pre-med. This is about you no knowing the fundamentals of what this topic is about. There are plenty of pre-meds that appreciate this and can have a good discussion about it. People come to SDN to get realistic, and somewhat evidence based answers to questions. If they want people to lie to them or ignorantly tell them, "Keep trying to go to medical school no matter what!" They can get that on SDN (from other pre-meds like yourself) or their parents/friends.

As has been pointed out in this thread. There is plenty of evidence to support that admission to medical school will be difficult and even if admitted, they would be at high chance of taking longer to graduate, failing step 1 or doing poorly on step 1. To not strongly consider plan B or at least what that plan B might be is incredibly harmful to a student.

I strongly encourage you to read my posts in this thread. I made a very simple and reasonable decision tree, including when they should consider applying to medical school based on information that I don't have. I laid it out pretty straight forward.

 

[jl lin]

Obviously the lower we are talking the greater the risk. But OP took the MCAT three times and the best she could do was a 24. I'm not sure about your assessment that the average extremely-low stats applicant has great odds for success. There is almost always a story behind a >3.0 GPA and >24 med school matriculant.

A 3.9 GPA says that OP has test-taking deficits, which is at the very least fixable. At the end of the day it is up to the OP to decide whether she will apply this cycle or not.

Yes I have to wonder about this. Sure there are reasons for the high GPA, such as one course at a time or an overall "easy" major--that can vary, so--writing intensive coursework can be quite challenging....
Anyway, all I was saying is really what if this is a serious test anxiety issue than can be effectively treated? That's why I recommend objective evaluation for this. People have been known to move to great heights when they have learned to conquer their test anxiety. It has been doable for many. TBH, I surely don't know if this is a certain issue and if they will be effectively treated for it, if it is so, and really, neither does anyone else. Before we know all the facts, is is fair to just tell an applicant "See you later"?
Geez, it's like treating someone sight unseen--before doing a valid work-up. I mean certainly MS may not be an option for this person, but after the work and time they have put in thus far, doesn't it behoove them to see if this is something that is indeed fixable?

 

[Lawpy]

Like i said elsewhere when someone decided it was of best interest to eviscerate mimelim in the dog thread. Being blunt and honest isn't arrogant and cruel. It stings yes, but it is necessary to avoid giving false hopes to people in dire situation. Taking stern and blunt criticisms to consideration and reflecting patiently are key to address and repair current weaknesses in order to develop and evolve as a more successful person

 

[jl lin]

I think there are two separate questions here at play and we might be confusing them and trying to combine them as one

a) Does the OP have a shot at getting into a DO school with 3 MCAT attempts that never hit above 24?

b) If it is possible for the OP to get in, are they someone who is a greater risk at failing step 1 and having other problems in medical school? Just how great is that risk?

It's fine for someone to talk about b) while addressing part a) even if the OP didn't ask for part b). But the answer to question a is what the OP came on here for. That's not what should be lost here. Now the answer to b) matters and asking the question matters alot as well, but there's a difference between saying "you should switch careers because you have no shot at getting in" and "you should switch careers because while you might be able to get in people with your stats have a greater chance of struggling even if struggling isn't defined as failing step 1". These two aren't necessarily as separate as I'm making them out to be here, but they still are two separate statements with some different considerations.

That is reasonable.

 

[Affiche]

This is pretty straight forward. This isn't condescension. You don't know anything about this topic and are arguing things that don't make any sense. Based on your posts in this thread, you don't have the slightest clue about what Step 1 is, its ramifications, or what "success" on it is. This isn't about being a pre-med. This is about you no knowing the fundamentals of what this topic is about. There are plenty of pre-meds that appreciate this and can have a good discussion about it. People come to SDN to get realistic, and somewhat evidence based answers to questions. If they want people to lie to them or ignorantly tell them, "Keep trying to go to medical school no matter what!" They can get that on SDN (from other pre-meds like yourself) or their parents/friends.

As has been pointed out in this thread. There is plenty of evidence to support that admission to medical school will be difficult and even if admitted, they would be at high chance of taking longer to graduate, failing step 1 or doing poorly on step 1. To not strongly consider plan B or at least what that plan B might be is incredibly harmful to a student.

I strongly encourage you to read my posts in this thread. I made a very simple and reasonable decision tree, including when they should consider applying to medical school based on information that I don't have. I laid it out pretty straight forward.

"Do you even know what Step 1 is?" was meant to be condescending, but okay.

Your comment that I don't have the slightest clue what step 1 is, its ramifications or what "success" is is simply untrue. There is a difference between being at risk of failing step 1 versus not scoring highly on it. The data suggest the OP is not at risk of failing Step 1. If her bio section was high, then the data suggest that OP is in good shape for step 1. We don't know this information though, which was my point.

Measuring "success" on step 1 depends on which field of medicine the student is interested in pursuing.

Who told the OP to keep trying no matter what? I don't think anyone. The OP advocates here are saying we don't feel comfortable advising without more information.

 

[jl lin]

It would be tempting for premeds to attack these posts for being harshly dismissive, but they would be sorely mistaken. As mentioned, i can understand a 24 on the first attempt, since many people do retake and score very high, even breaking 40+. But three attempts with a max score of 24 effectively seals the app out of all MD and most DO schools. Even if OP retakes the MCAT and score very high (>36), the weight of the first three attempts will hold her back.

Well again, that depends...I mean if you average 3(24) +36/4 =27. And given, that's if s/he gets a 36 equivalent. If s/he could show that indeed it was test anxiety and that s/he has overcome it, that might put him/her at 27 equivalent, and perhaps gives her/him a shot at DO. Depends on if what is holding him/her back on MCAT is fixable to me.

 

[Mad Jack]

A 497 can give you a shot at a few schools- LECOM-E, ATSU-KCOM, etc. We even had several students accepted with 23s at UNECOM- the median doesn't tell the whole story. If you apply broadly on the DO side of things, you'll probably get some bites.

 

[Lawpy]

Well again, that depends...I mean if you average 3(24) +36/4 =27. And given, that's if s/he gets a 36 equivalent. If s/he could show that indeed it was test anxiety and that s/he has overcome it, that might put him/her at 27 equivalent, and perhaps gives her/him a shot at DO. Depends on if what is holding him/her make on MCAT is fixable to me.

I am pretty confident that OP will have some success in DO schools as long as her retake is significantly higher than a 24. But even if OP received a 36+ equivalebt, adcoms/interviewers will wonder how the 36+ works in the context of previous 3 MCATs on record with the highest of them being a 24. There is significant risk involved at this point which tend to discourage schools from accepting her

 

[jl lin]

Like i said elsewhere when someone decided it was of best interest to eviscerate mimelim in the dog thread. Being blunt and honest isn't arrogant and cruel. It stings yes, but it is necessary to avoid giving false hopes to people in dire situation. Taking stern and blunt criticisms to consideration and reflecting patiently are key to address and repair current weaknesses in order to develop and evolve as a more successful person

Yes and we can speak the truth firmly but kindly--and humbly acknowledge that we don't know if this is fixable--as mimelim has done. He's been firm, but he has also noted that it depends upon whether the issue is fixable. We all know that averaging such a low score three times is not a good thing, but I don't know what reflect's the person's true academic abilities and reading skills given the information. Seriously, test anxiety is a real thing, but many people can get effective help for it and then blossom. There are other factors too. Best and fairest answer to me seems to be, given the information, no one can say w/ absolute dogma re: this individual. If test anxiety, s/he must find out what that is really all about, b/c whatever s/he did for it before doesn't seem to have worked. So was it some superficial approach to the TA? These are things the OP has to figure out.

 

[jl lin]

I am pretty confident that OP will have some success in DO schools as long as her retake is significantly higher than a 24. But even if OP received a 36+ equivalebt, adcoms/interviewers will wonder how the 36+ works in the context of previous 3 MCATs on record with the highest of them being a 24. There is significant risk involved at this point which tend to discourage schools from accepting her

Wouldn't it help for the person to address this then in application?

 

[Affiche]

I am pretty confident that OP will have some success in DO schools as long as her retake is significantly higher than a 24. But even if OP received a 36+ equivalebt, adcoms/interviewers will wonder how the 36+ works in the context of previous 3 MCATs on record with the highest of them being a 24. There is significant risk involved at this point which tend to discourage schools from accepting her

Why retake at all? The chances of improving are slim and plenty of DO schools will look at the highest score or most recent test. With a smart school list, 24 might get some love.

 

[Lawpy]

Yes and we can speak the truth firmly but kindly--and humbly acknowledge that we don't know if this is fixable--as mimelim has done. He's been firm, but he has also noted that it depends upon whether the issue is fixable. We all know that averaging such a low score three times is not a good thing, but I don't know what reflect's the person's true academic abilities and reading skills given the information. Seriously, test anxiety is a real thing, but many people can get effective help for it and then blossom. There are other factors too. Best and fairest answer to me seem to be, given the information, no one can say, and if test anxiety, find out what that is really all about, b/c whatever s/he did for it before doesn't seem to have worked. So was it some superficial approach to the TA? These are things the OP has to figure out.

Many posts here and elsewhere address that test anxiety is readily fixable. So that is an important plus.

Wouldn't it help for the person to address this then in application?

Even then, the adcoms may remain unconvinced and raise the question again in interviews. Based on various, arbitrary cost-benefit analyses, they may decide whether OP would be a good fit to their school, but that is difficult to analyze

Why retake at all? The chances of improving are slim and plenty of DO schools will look at the highest score or most recent test. With a smart school list, 24 might get some love.

With the MCAT score creep happening that even the established DO schools are rivaling or even surpassing many lower tier MD schools, OP's school list with a 24 and 3x MCAT is essentially restricted to among the newer DO schools. A much stronger retake will considerably broaden her school list and maximize her chsnce of acquiring an acceptance

 

[mimelim]

"Do you even know what Step 1 is?" was meant to be condescending, but okay.

Your comment that I don't have the slightest clue what step 1 is, its ramifications or what "success" is is simply untrue. There is a difference between being at risk of failing step 1 versus not scoring highly on it. The data suggest the OP is not at risk of failing Step 1. If her bio section was high, then the data suggest that OP is in good shape for step 1. We don't know this information though, which was my point.

Measuring "success" on step 1 depends on which field of medicine the student is interested in pursuing.

Who told the OP to keep trying no matter what? I don't think anyone. The OP advocates here are saying we don't feel comfortable advising without more information.

This is basic logic and critical analysis.

The average pass rate for someone with a 24-26 is 90%.
OP took the MCAT 3 times and maxed out at 24. (They are at the bottom of this range after 3 attempts).

Ergo, regardless of what their bio score was (given how atrocious their other scores would be), it is reasonable to assume that they have a 10%+ chance of not passing step 1. Again, I don't think anyone can really dispute that. The issue is with interpretation.

A 10% chance of Step 1 failure is unacceptable to the vast majority of people, including virtually every admissions committee. This is not compatible with "good chance of success" or "good shape". The vast majority of administrators (if not every single one of them) will be worried that this person will not pass Step 1, never mind do well enough on it for them to be competitive for whatever they want to go into.

YOU may not have enough information to understand this situation in order to advise. That doesn't mean those of us with different and/or more experience than you don't. Are we the end all be all? No. Is everything way say completely true? No. But, that is what admissions committees have to work with. When we see <24 3 times, alarm bells are going off. A pre-med with a basic understanding of the evidence out there should hear the exact same warnings.

 

[wasteofspace323]

The average pass rate for someone with a 24-26 is 90%.

Oh my god, only 90%?

 

[Lawpy]

Oh my god, only 90%?

in before someone misinterprets that statistic despite being thoroughly explained a few times

 

[ZedsDed]

Oh my god, only 90%?

Why are ya'll getting so defensive? This isn't exactly an emotionally charged issue.

 

[wasteofspace323]

Why are ya'll getting so defensive? This isn't exactly an emotionally charged issue.

I was mocking him. I suspect he might have tunnel vision. I think if god came down and told a random person about to matriculate into medical school: "I'm going to roll a pair of dice. You have a 10% chance of not passing. Its 100% out of your control." most people would not suddenly decide against medical school. I understand ADCOMs are in a position to be as picky as possible, which is fine. But as far as "long-lasting life choices" go, for most human beings, 90% is more than acceptable.

 

[jl lin]

TBH, yes. I would be in tears with such a score. After the first time, I would realize that it is so serious that it needs strong, immediate attention. OP, you said you had some help with test anxiety (TA), but you have to re-evaluate that help or perhaps looks at deficits in other skill sets needed to excel at these kinds of standardized tests. Knowledge-base is part of it, as are also critical analysis and inferential thinking. Even if you improve in these areas, if test anxiety remains an unconquered issue, well, you will continue to be in trouble.

So now the only thing anyone can tell you is to get the right support and try and figure this out--figure out if you can fix whatever it is holding you back from getting a substantially better score on the MCAT. It's about problem-solving. After you have gone through all the possible issues and worked hard to remediate them, then have someone set up testing scenarios/questions for you for MCAT and see how you feel and how well you do. Don't set the scenarios up for yourself--maybe early on in practicing, but not later in the prep. Have someone that will make it as real as possible in order to test where you stand with improvement.

Believe it or not, sometimes things don't improve b/c subconsciously, we don't want something as much as we think we do. I am not saying that is true with you. I am saying you have to figure this out and prove to yourself this is something you really can do and something you really want.

If not, it's all good. The world is full of plenty of things to see and do. There are plenty of ways to help and work with people in need.

Best Wishes OP.

 

[Lawpy]

I was mocking him. I suspect he might have tunnel vision. I think if god came down and told a random person about to matriculate into medical school: "I'm going to roll a pair of dice. You have a 10% chance of not passing. Its 100% out of your control." most people would not suddenly decide against medical school. I understand ADCOMs are in a position to be as picky as possible, which is fine. But as far as "long-lasting life choices" go, for most human beings, 90% is more than acceptable.

Not when compared to the 94% pass rate that adcoms want to maintain/surpass. Statistics have meaning/importance when compared relative to a specific target/goal, and not viewed as an absolute

 

[mimelim]

Oh my god, only 90%?

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. In case you aren't... 90% is very low and it is very distressing for both the student and the school. It is bad enough that if a US-MD school was that low, LCME and others would be knocking on their door and/or threatening to shut them down.

If you don't pass step 1, most (if not all) medical schools will stop you from starting your 3rd year. You will need to spend the time to re-study and retake the exam. This means that you will lose clinical time, which as most medical students and med schools have identified is precious. (hence curriculum expanding their clinical time and limiting pre-clinical) Your core clerkships get pushed back and sometimes infringe on your MS4 year, which means less aways time, less time to figure out what specialties you might be interested in, etc. It also puts you at risk for needing an additional year to catch up (which means a 5th year of tuition). What also shouldn't be lost in this is that those who are at risk of failing step 1 also are at risk of not doing well in their pre-clinical classes. Every single student that I know who failed step 1 had either failed pre-clinical classes or did very poorly. This means more catch up time, which increases the need for a 5th year.

This doesn't even begin to touch on how this will limit the specialties and programs that would consider you if you do pass.

I would caution you against mocking people about a statistic that you have no understanding of. How many students do you know in 200k debt who failed Step 1 and never ended up in residency? I know several. How many students do you know who ended up in specialties that they didn't want because they barely passed Step 1? We sink a tremendous amount of resources into each medical student. Medical students sink a tremendous amount of time, energy and money into this. It is absolutely reasonable for schools to protect students from themselves and the school from having a bunch of students that can't pass boards or get into residency.

At my medical school, we reviewed every single person's file who had "academic issues", ie failed more than 1 pre-clinical class, failed step 1, etc. This isn't exactly novel, I'm sure most schools at every level do it. It is incredibly important for the school to figure out if there were warning signs and to help avoid ending up with further attrition or MDs that either aren't going to be able to practice what they want or practice medicine at all. As someone who has sat on those committees that had to tell students that they really should drop out because things aren't working, it is heartbreaking. Never mind the inevitable, "What the **** am I supposed to do now?" that is going through their head, but there is the 100k+ of debt that they have already racked up.

 

[wasteofspace323]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. In case you aren't... 90% is very low and it is very distressing for both the student and the school. It is bad enough that if a US-MD school was that low, LCME and others would be knocking on their door and/or threatening to shut them down.

If you don't pass step 1, most (if not all) medical schools will stop you from starting your 3rd year. You will need to spend the time to re-study and retake the exam. This means that you will lose clinical time, which as most medical students and med schools have identified is precious. (hence curriculum expanding their clinical time and limiting pre-clinical) Your core clerkships get pushed back and sometimes infringe on your MS4 year, which means less aways time, less time to figure out what specialties you might be interested in, etc. It also puts you at risk for needing an additional year to catch up (which means a 5th year of tuition). What also shouldn't be lost in this is that those who are at risk of failing step 1 also are at risk of not doing well in their pre-clinical classes. Every single student that I know who failed step 1 had either failed pre-clinical classes or did very poorly. This means more catch up time, which increases the need for a 5th year.

This doesn't even begin to touch on how this will limit the specialties and programs that would consider you if you do pass.

I would caution you against mocking people about a statistic that you have no understanding of. How many students do you know in 200k debt who failed Step 1 and never ended up in residency? I know several. How many students do you know who ended up in specialties that they didn't want because they barely passed Step 1? We sink a tremendous amount of resources into each medical student. Medical students sink a tremendous amount of time, energy and money into this. It is absolutely reasonable for schools to protect students from themselves and the school from having a bunch of students that can't pass boards or get into residency.

At my medical school, we reviewed every single person's file who had "academic issues", ie failed more than 1 pre-clinical class, failed step 1, etc. This isn't exactly novel, I'm sure most schools at every level do it. It is incredibly important for the school to figure out if there were warning signs and to help avoid ending up with further attrition or MDs that either aren't going to be able to practice what they want or practice medicine at all. As someone who has sat on those committees that had to tell students that they really should drop out because things aren't working, it is heartbreaking. Never mind the inevitable, "What the **** am I supposed to do now?" that is going through their head, but there is the 100k+ of debt that they have already racked up.

Let me make something clear: If they had a 1/10 chance to die, I still think most would take it.

 

[Lawpy]

Let me make something clear: If they had a 1/10 chance to die, I still think most would take it.

 

[wasteofspace323]

Not when compared to the 94% pass rate that adcoms want to maintain/surpass. Statistics have meaning/importance when compared relative to a specific target/goal, and not viewed as an absolute

The target goal is relevant to ADCOMs. Not the applicant. The discrepancy is important for gauging competitiveness. Most people do not care about the opinions of ADCOMs outside of how it will influence the acceptance/rejection decision. Mimelime is trying to get OP to rethink his personal life decision because of the 1/10 chance of failure. He is not talking about competitiveness or the opinion's of ADCOMs, but suggesting that the likelyhood of failure is high enough that its absolute meaning should cause OP to rethink his decision. I don't think most people would consider a 1/10 chance of failure something to give up medicine over, and I think he has become a bit confused about the average applicant's decision making process by being involved in the other end of the process.

 

[ZedsDed]

At my medical school, we reviewed every single person's file who had "academic issues", ie failed more than 1 pre-clinical class, failed step 1, etc. This isn't exactly novel, I'm sure most schools at every level do it. It is incredibly important for the school to figure out if there were warning signs and to help avoid ending up with further attrition or MDs that either aren't going to be able to practice what they want or practice medicine at all. As someone who has sat on those committees that had to tell students that they really should drop out because things aren't working, it is heartbreaking. Never mind the inevitable, "What the **** am I supposed to do now?" that is going through their head, but there is the 100k+ of debt that they have already racked up.

Don't you work at a top school? I would think that the screening of applicants for high stats would prevent such a disaster.

 

[jl lin]

As someone who has sat on those committees that had to tell students that they really should drop out because things aren't working, it is heartbreaking. Never mind the inevitable, "What the **** am I supposed to do now?" that is going through their head, but there is the 100k+ of debt that they have already racked up.

That is beyond disheartening, and this is why we premeds need to hear this kind of thing--not to discourage us, but to help us be honest, realistic, and serious. Although pre-meds do tend to often be way too serious, which is a drag. 😉


I can't count how many times I've heard that the hardest part of MS is getting accepted. Whether it's more true for some than for others, I think it is an unfair statement.

 

[Apollo1]

Why are ya'll getting so defensive? This isn't exactly an emotionally charged issue.

It seems they're mistakenly identifying the 90% pass rate with the letter grade system where a 90% would be an A.

 

[jl lin]

The target goal is relevant to ADCOMs. Not the applicant. The discrepancy is important for gauging competitiveness. Most people do not care about the opinions of ADCOMs outside of how it will influence the acceptance/rejection decision. Mimelime is trying to get OP to rethink his personal life decision because of the 1/10 chance of failure. He is not talking about competitiveness or the opinion's of ADCOMs, but suggesting that the likelyhood of failure is high enough that its absolute meaning should cause OP to rethink his decision. I don't think most people would consider a 1/10 chance of failure something to give up medicine over, and I think he has become a bit confused about the average applicant's decision making process by being involved in the other end of the process.

You're missing it.

 

[mimelim]

The target goal is relevant to ADCOMs. Not the applicant. The discrepancy is important for gauging competitiveness. Most people do not care about the opinions of ADCOMs outside of how it will influence the acceptance/rejection decision. Mimelime is trying to get OP to rethink his personal life decision because of the 1/10 chance of failure. He is not talking about competitiveness or the opinion's of ADCOMs, but suggesting that the likelyhood of failure is high enough that its absolute meaning should cause OP to rethink his decision. I don't think most people would consider a 1/10 chance of failure something to give up medicine over, and I think he has become a bit confused about the average applicant's decision making process by being involved in the other end of the process.

Just because pre-meds don't think about it, doesn't mean that they shouldn't. Is there high likelyhood that the OP won't take it seriously, will blow it off, or may not even come back to this thread? Yes. That doesn't make it any less relevant. If someone is willing to take a 9/10 chance of survival, simply to get into medical school, they are naively approaching this and don't appreciate what medicine is. I love what I do. I want others to love it and do it. I don't want people to say, "All I have ever wanted is to be a doctor, I'd rather take a 10% chance of dieing or being in massive debt without an MD than not go." While there are certainly people like that, those of us that have been through this process appreciate how bad it can be.

We are of course only talking about a small fraction of students every year. And it most certainly isn't all doom and gloom, I'd say of the residents/fellows/attendings on here, I'm on the more optimistic side. But, a healthy dose of reality is definitely required when talking about the level of investment we require of our students.

 

[jl lin]

*scratching head* Why wouldn't attrition rates matter to schools?

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6920-13-13.pdf

Why wouldn't they care about licensing exam scores?
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/765122

 

[mimelim]

Don't you work at a top school? I would think that the screening of applicants for high stats would prevent such a disaster.

Every school has students that don't make it through. Sometimes it is baseline poor academics (they were amazing on everything else, but really couldn't hack it), or it is a life event, trauma, breakups, etc. that cause a downward spiral. Certainly many, 'top' schools are insulated from the former for the most part, but disasters happen and now on the residency side of things, you continue to see them happen and hear about them at other medical schools that you weren't at.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

"Do you even know what Step 1 is?" was meant to be condescending, but okay.

Your comment that I don't have the slightest clue what step 1 is, its ramifications or what "success" is is simply untrue. There is a difference between being at risk of failing step 1 versus not scoring highly on it. The data suggest the OP is not at risk of failing Step 1. If her bio section was high, then the data suggest that OP is in good shape for step 1. We don't know this information though, which was my point.

Measuring "success" on step 1 depends on which field of medicine the student is interested in pursuing.

Who told the OP to keep trying no matter what? I don't think anyone. The OP advocates here are saying we don't feel comfortable advising without more information.

Quite frankly you sound like a daisy and roses person. Real life is harsh, cruel, and will eat you up if you aren't prepared. Not being prepared for reality can cause life to spin out of control. Coming and asking advice with the MCAT track record the OP has shown will result in very realistic advice. With those scores yes OP has a chance to succeed in medical school which is why she should at least throw some DO apps out there but she is a high risk applicant. She should at least know that a plan B is needed because her chances of having to go that route are extremely high. Sorry but medical schools don't owe OP anything and can choose whatever reason they want to not accept them. Trying to argue with adcom members and people who have already gone through this whole process and know what they are talking about is extremely pompous and childish.

 

[wasteofspace323]

don't want people to say, "All I have ever wanted is to be a doctor, I'd rather take a 10% chance of dieing or being in massive debt without an MD than not go." While there are certainly people like that, those of us that have been through this process appreciate how bad it can be.

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance. While most do not have to, if they did, I suspect far more than you would be content with would be willing to do so; I believe this holds true even if they're succinctly aware of the crippling debt. If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.

*scratching head* Why wouldn't attrition rates matter to schools?

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6920-13-13.pdf

Why wouldn't they care about licensing exam scores?
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/765122

I think you're the one missing the point of this discussion. This is not about the school. This is about OP and his realistic chances to pass the STEP 1.

 

[jl lin]

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance. While most do not have to, if they did, I suspect far more than you would be content with would be willing to do so; I believe this holds true even if they're succinctly aware of the crippling debt. If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.



I think you're the one missing the point of this discussion. This is not about the school. This is about OP and his realistic chances to pass the STEP 1.

Actually no. It was about OP realistically getting into MS w/ a re-take of the MCAT--and that really depends, as some of us have said--although things certainly don't look totally copacetic for the OP.

It is true that reputable school's care about the % of loss and decreasing that potential. They have to maintain certain standards. This is similar somewhat to nursing school programs, and I have seen a number of them close over the year--sometimes to re-open, sometimes not--d/t such losses and/or going below a certain % on passing board scores for their graduates. It's part of schools' programs and set standards. Education is a serious business, and let's be real. It is a business, but it can be a very complicated one.

Of course, there is the whole set of statistics on enrollment factors and supply and demand. And this is why the OP might have a shot at some newer DO schools. But at the end of the day, schools have a vested interest in picking folks that they can reasonably calculate will have a good chance at making it all the way through and succeed at good board scores, etc.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance. While most do not have to, if they did, I suspect far more than you would be content with would be willing to do so; I believe this holds true even if they're succinctly aware of the crippling debt. If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.

I think you're the one missing the point of this discussion. This is not about the school. This is about OP and his realistic chances to pass the STEP 1.

I hope it's also clear to you that "failing step 1" is FAR from the only thing that can constitute a medical student having significant problems in medical school. And the better statistic to use for the OP is chances of passing step 1 with a 21-23 MCAT: with that 17% of people like the OP will fail on their first attempt. Now you are talking about 1/6 people. That is alot of step 1 failure. And that says nothing about clinical rotations along with the shelf's you have to study for on the side, Step 2 etc. You'll find many people tell you 3rd year of medical school was the most stressful of their time; not the first two years leading up to Step 1. Bottom line, there are many many other ways of struggling in medical school that go well beyond just "passing" Step 1.

It's very easy to before medical school have the perspective I'm about to describe below. Very easy, BEFORE medical school and your medical education.

"I'd be rather content at the very bottom of my class. I'd be rather content continuously seeing people do far better than me, having to worry every second whether or not I'm in serious danger of failing, getting roasted in clinical rotations, having to dedicate all my free time every day just to study a field I know I am doing far far worse than the rest of my classmates, and one where I will be left with residency options that nobody else wanted".

It's extremely easy to tell yourself now at this stage "Oh as well as I get that MD and the salary that comes with it I'll be content with whatever bottom tier residency in a field I might have no interest in I get thrown in a rural area I don't want to live in. I have no problem being an MD, even though I will often be struggling to keep up, putting in enormous hours full of stress that will make it harder to keep a family and happy, complete life while having to be in a field I took that simply fell to me rather than one I had interest in in an area that was nowhere near my top choice. "

But when you actually have to start to deal with these situations, realize how unhappy you are and how much of a struggle it is for you to graduate medical school and be a competent resident and all that it is doing to your life, then will you really be content? Will you really be content squeaking by on Step 1, only having to remediate 1 or 2 classes and settling for that residency you might have no interest in while constantly seeing everybody around you do far better than you and having a rough go of it in clinical rotations when it's obvious to attendings and others you are literally just scraping by? You will be in for one rude awakening if you think this is all well and good, just as long as you get the MD at the end of the day and the 200k+ salary a year.

There's a reason you'll find a number of physicians not fully content with their life. And this includes fully competent physicians who did just fine on step 1 and their training; not the ones who have to do all they can just to inch by and constantly see themselves do far worse than their peers.

All of this by the way is coming from someone who was arguing earlier that it's too flippant to simply tell the OP "Time for Plan B" and that the OP has a chance at getting into a DO school potentially. I am someone who thinks that it could still be worth considering medicine even with the 3 really low MCAT scores. I'm far more optimistic than alot of people on this site here. But to not realize the reality of the situation here, just how hard you can make life for yourself in emdical school and for as long as you live after that by saying "Oh as long as I have a 90% of inching by in medical school I'll be fine" shows a lack of perspective.

 

[jl lin]

If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.

Um, wow.

 

[Affiche]

Quite frankly you sound like a daisy and roses person. Real life is harsh, cruel, and will eat you up if you aren't prepared. Not being prepared for reality can cause life to spin out of control. Coming and asking advice with the MCAT track record the OP has shown will result in very realistic advice. With those scores yes OP has a chance to succeed in medical school which is why she should at least throw some DO apps out there but she is a high risk applicant. She should at least know that a plan B is needed because her chances of having to go that route are extremely high. Sorry but medical schools don't owe OP anything and can choose whatever reason they want to not accept them. Trying to argue with adcom members and people who have already gone through this whole process and know what they are talking about is extremely pompous and childish.

Oh, please. I'm a total realist and have often been labeled a cynic. I took issue with Goro telling her it's time to pursue plan B with only a limited amount of information. Goro and I have respectfully disagreed plenty of times.

I'm guilty though of not responding well to condescension. Adcom members can offer whatever advice they want, but they can do so respectfully. Calling out the OP's multiple MCAT scores in her thread about getting a dog wasn't very respectful. Telling people ''you don't know what you're talking about'' (his favorite) instead of explaining your stance isn't very respectful either, nor is it conducive to maintaining an open discussion. It is what is though and I'm not going to argue about it.

Even adcoms have limitations when offering career advice over the Internet. It's helpful when those limitations are acknowledged.

And #realtalk you don't need to tell me that real life is harsh and cruel. Quit dishing out advice to people after reading a few of their posts.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance.

Even if you consider it a purely financial investment, it is a horrible choice to make, however, I admit you may be correct about their willingness to take the chance (especially the group under discussion), which lends even greater importance to ADCOMs making the proper decision to stop applicants from making such an expensive mistake.

 

[mimelim]

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance. While most do not have to, if they did, I suspect far more than you would be content with would be willing to do so; I believe this holds true even if they're succinctly aware of the crippling debt. If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.

I don't think I've commented about how willing most applicants are to take chances. I know how desperate people are about getting into medical school. What I am saying is that even if they think that way, half of my job as a physician is to stop people from doing stupid things that harm them in the long run. This is a natural extension of that. Sure, people CAN go to the Caribbean to get an MD. Doesn't make it a smart choice. We live in a free country, they can do what they want. We can only advise.

Well, that isn't entirely true. We do get to decide who gets in and who doesn't. And, yes, we absolutely stop people we think are at elevated academic risk from getting in.

 

[Affiche]

OP should be in the pre-osteo thread and talking with DO schools that do not average MCATs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Goro's school averages MCAT scores and mimelim is at an MD school. Might be worth getting some feedback from the schools you'd realistically apply to.

 

[wasteofspace323]

I hope it's also clear to you that "failing step 1" is FAR from the only thing that can constitute a medical student having significant problems in medical school. And the better statistic to use for the OP is chances of passing step 1 with a 21-23 MCAT: with that 17% of people like the OP will fail on their first attempt. Now you are talking about 1/6 people. That is alot of step 1 failure. And that says nothing about clinical rotations along with the shelf's you have to study for on the side, Step 2 etc. You'll find many people tell you 3rd year of medical school was the most stressful of their time; not the first two years leading up to Step 1. Bottom line, there are many many other ways of struggling in medical school that go well beyond just "passing" Step 1.

It's very easy to before medical school have the perspective I'm about to describe below. Very easy, BEFORE medical school and your medical education.

"I'd be rather content at the very bottom of my class. I'd be rather content continuously seeing people do far better than me, having to worry every second whether or not I'm in serious danger of failing, getting roasted in clinical rotations, having to dedicate all my free time every day just to study a field I know I am doing far far worse than the rest of my classmates, and one where I will be left with residency options that nobody else wanted".

It's extremely easy "Oh as well as I get that MD and the salary that comes with it I'll be content with whatever bottom tier residency in a field I might have no interest in I get thrown in a rural area I don't want to live in. I have no problem being an MD, even though I will always be struggling to keep up, putting in enormous hours full of stress that will make it harder to keep a family and happy, complete life while having to be in a field I took that simply fell to me rather than one I had interest in in an area that was nowhere near my top choice. "

But when you actually have to start to deal with these situations, realize how unhappy you are and how much of a struggle it is for you to graduate medical school and be a competent resident and all that it is doing to your life, then will you really be content? Will you really be content squeaking by on Step 1, only having to remediate 1 or 2 classes and settling for that residency you might have no interest in while constantly seeing everybody around you do far better than you and having a rough go of it in clinical rotations when it's obvious to attendings and others you are literally just scraping by? You will be in for one rude awakening if you think this is all well and good, just as long as you get the MD at the end of the day and the 200k+ salary a year.

There's a reason you'll find a number of physicians not fully content with their life. And this includes fully competent physicians who did just fine on step 1 and their training; not the ones who have to do all they can just to inch by and constantly see themselves do far worse than their peers.

All of this by the way is coming from someone who was arguing earlier that it's too flippant to simply tell the OP "Time for Plan B" and that the OP has a chance at getting into a DO school potentially. I am someone who thinks that it could still be worth considering medicine even with the 3 really low MCAT scores. I'm far more optimistic than alot of people on this site here. But to not realize the reality of the situation here, just how hard you can make life for yourself in emdical school and for as long as you live after that by saying "Oh as long as I have a 90% of inching by in medical school I'll be fine" shows a lack of perspective.

Moving the bracket down is legitimate, and a significant cause for concern. However, even at 1/6, I still think many applicants would be willing to take that chance; there are hundreds every year who a take a 1/2 or worse chance. Moreover, thus far, I had been operating under the assumption that the failure to pass rate we were discussing was the final rate. In other words, I assumed 10% of people who took the STEP 1 with a 24-26 MCAT did not pass it even upon subsequent attempts and ended up facing the worst possible option. If thats not the case, I think statistics on that issue would be more relevant and significantly beneficial to my argument. MCAT scores have been shown to correlate with Step 1 scores. I do not know how well they correlate with the subsequent steps.

I think anyone with a 24MCAT would at least be aware of what they're getting themselves into with regard to academic rigor that might be over their heads. I would also think that they would consider that they're likely not going to be a neurosurgeon in New York. The upcoming difficulties are certainly worth significant consideration. However, I also feel that people end up miserable for a lot of reasons. Maybe OP will spend the rest of his life bitter and regretful if he doesn't get into medical school; there are people, right now, living that life and will till they die. In which case, is OP really so much better off? Slitting the throat of someone's dreams because "well, there was a 1/10 chance they wouldn't pass STEP 1" may be necessary, but I wouldn't do the job feeling good about myself. Also, you are somewhat exaggerating the income of PCP physicians, even in rural areas. Its not as if they'll be inching by, financially speaking.

I don't think I've commented about how willing most applicants are to take chances.

What I am trying to express is that you should be not be surprised that a "1/10 chance to not pass the STEP 1" is not a compelling argument to the average applicant. Going into a thread and informing someone of that fact and using it as your main argument for seriously reconsidering their lifeplan is...questionable. I don't know what response you were expecting if you didn't think this would be a chance few people are willing to take. Maybe I falsely assumed that this information was supposed to convince OP that maybe medicine is not for them, based on the assumption that its a higher risk than most people would be okay with; if thats the case I apologize.

 

[Ad2b]

Real life is harsh, cruel, and will eat you up if you aren't prepared.

Be careful assuming anything about anyone on this forum. You, and most others, have no clue what some have been through (nor do I). It weakens everything else in your post.

 

[jl lin]

Be careful assuming anything about anyone on this forum. You, and most others, have no clue what some have been through (nor do I). It weakens everything else in your post.

Well I certainly would be in agreement with that. I learned as a nurse a long time ago to be careful about making snap judgments about people. Still, people do it ALL the time. Some people even laugh at the notion I proposed, and that is that human beings are complicated. I have learned that this definitely true, and that's why they require much tolerance and patience. I hope that the OP finds that indeed the problem is test anxiety and is wholly able to address it and conquer it. I almost always go for the underdog, b/c any of us could be an underdog for one reason or another--b/c life and people are complicated.

 

[jl lin]

I'm not kissing up. This is genuine, but I love analytical surgeons--especially the ones that can get right down to the heart of the matter. I've been privileged to be a nurse working among many of this sort. 👍

Why? They are doing neither patients nor their families any goodness in BSing them. People have to see what the reality is. They need people that are willing to help them to see it; b/c the stakes get REALLY high.

 

[Cotterpin]

I think you are fundamentally wrong about how willing most applicants would be to take that chance. While most do not have to, if they did, I suspect far more than you would be content with would be willing to do so; I believe this holds true even if they're succinctly aware of the crippling debt. If you want to convince someone that medicine is not for them, you're going to need to present them with something a bit worse than a 90%+ success rate. Every year, there are hundreds of applicants willing to go to schools with match rates of under 50%. You can say all you want about terrible decision making, but I suspect if for some reason forced to, a significant portion of your school's students would have done it too.

I don't think you're understanding what is happening here. The OP asked if it's worth bothering to apply to medical school and two adcoms said "no." Then Mimelin went on to explain the reasoning why OP will most likely not be accepted into any med schools with her MCAT record. It's not about whether or not a student is willing to apply to med school if they only have a 90% chance at passing Step 1 (because of course the students would take that chance.) It's about whether the med schools will let them take that chance in the first place. And Mimelin is trying very patiently to explain the reasoning behind that and it makes no sense to argue with him on that unless you are also an adcom. There's little chance that if OP applies that she will get in anywhere. So, to apply this directly to the original post, maybe she can say "eff it" and apply very broadly to DO schools (and have very low odds), or maybe she can just save herself the time and money and start coming up with a plan B.

 

[jl lin]

I don't think you're understanding what is happening here. The OP asked if it's worth bothering to apply to medical school and two adcoms said "no." Then Mimelin went on to explain the reasoning why OP will most likely not be accepted into any med schools with her MCAT record. It's not about whether or not a student is willing to apply to med school if they only have a 90% chance at passing Step 1 (because of course the students would take that chance.) It's about whether the med schools will let them take that chance in the first place. And Mimelin is trying very patiently to explain the reasoning behind that and it makes no sense to argue with him on that unless you are also an adcom. There's little chance that if OP applies that she will get in anywhere. So, to apply this directly to the original post, maybe she can say "eff it" and apply very broadly to DO schools (and have very low odds), or maybe she can just save herself the time and money and start coming up with a plan B.

Or maybe OP can hone in on why so low MCAT (i.e.. test anxiety, issues with data analyses, inferential reasoning, whatever).


OP, when you figure it out, do come back and let us know.

Honestly, I love learning various things from such threads. If learning isn't at least one of the purposes for SDN, well, then, it's just play time for when we are bored or just a place to sublimate by squashing the hopes or egos of people or for squashing the ubiquitous trolls. LOL Ah, fun times. Note: Be careful when drinking wine and posting/reading on SDN. 🙂

 

[Cotterpin]

Or maybe OP can hone in on why so low MCAT (i.e.. test anxiety, issues with data analyses, inferential reasoning, whatever).


OP, when you figure it out, do come back and let us know. Honestly, I love learning various things from such threads. If learning isn't an purpose for SDN, well, then, it's just play time for when we are bored or just a place to sublimate by squashing the hopes of people or the ubiquitous trolls. LOL Ah, fun times. Note: Be careful when drinking wine and posting/reading on SDN. 🙂

OP already explained that she believes the text anxiety is the big problem and that she already tried getting professional help about it. Which is why I'm thinking that she should definitely not apply right now.

But this has me thinking, @j306c954, maybe you just need more time to work on your test anxiety. I know nobody wants to take some time off from Med School Quest, but maybe you could just take a few years working in a related field, beefing up your app even more, and getting some therapy for your anxiety. Then you can apply again when you're a bit older and more stable. Plus by then there will probably be tons more useful info and practice exams for the new test out there for you to use, which can only be a good thing.

 

[wasteofspace323]

I don't think you're understanding what is happening here. The OP asked if it's worth bothering to apply to medical school and two adcoms said "no." Then Mimelin went on to explain the reasoning why OP will most likely not be accepted into any med schools with her MCAT record. It's not about whether or not a student is willing to apply to med school if they only have a 90% chance at passing Step 1 (because of course the students would take that chance.) It's about whether the med schools will let them take that chance in the first place. And Mimelin is trying very patiently to explain the reasoning behind that and it makes no sense to argue with him on that unless you are also an adcom. There's little chance that if OP applies that she will get in anywhere. So, to apply this directly to the original post, maybe she can say "eff it" and apply very broadly to DO schools (and have very low odds), or maybe she can just save herself the time and money and start coming up with a plan B.

You are probably right. What threw me off was:

A 10% chance of Step 1 failure is unacceptable to the vast majority of people

Which I find completely untrue.

 

[Cotterpin]

You are probably right. What threw me off was:



Which I find completely untrue.

Yeah, I think he was thinking mostly of 10% chance of failure being unacceptable to med school administrations. But also, once you're in MS2 and preparing for Step 1, I'm pretty sure a 10% chance of failure will become unacceptable to you as well. I know I wouldn't have taken the MCAT if I thought I had a 1 in 10 chance of bombing it. I would have waited until I was ready. (In fact, I did reschedule my test and waited an extra month because I wasn't willing to take the risk, even if it meant I'd be applying later than I'd like.)

 

[jl lin]

OP already explained that she believes the text anxiety is the big problem and that she already tried getting professional help about it. Which is why I'm thinking that she should definitely not apply right now.

But this has me thinking, @j306c954, maybe you just need more time to work on your test anxiety. I know nobody wants to take some time off from Med School Quest, but maybe you could just take a few years working in a related field, beefing up your app even more, and getting some therapy for your anxiety. Then you can apply again when you're a bit older and more stable. Plus by then there will probably be tons more useful info and practice exams for the new test out there for you to use, which can only be a good thing.

Yes, and it's why I suggested she re-think the "help" she received for it. Superficial helps sometimes can be helpful, but not when when the issue is as intense as this person's is. And it's true. Some people can get simple pointers and be fine, others, however cannot. They need more than simple suggestions and pointers. She's got to go deeper in figuring this thing out. After she had done her due diligence with this on all aspects, which includes things like inferential reading and such (I've taught students with this problem on the college level. When they get the right teaching and practice, it's like an "Ah ha Moment" for them.), after she's done all she can possibly do to evaluate, dx, tx, and re-evaluate, if she still does poorly, yes. After that point, she of course needs to then consider other areas of interest or professional work. Problem-solving is a HUGE part of medicine. But she also needs reputable, objective sources than can directly help her in this effort.

Testing anxiety is a HUGE problem for some people. There are, as I said, other factors as well, and she should obtain sound help in figuring which things are bringing her down.

And sometimes, seriously, people think they want something, when the reality of it is that they somehow sense it is that they are going in direction that they know they don't want. It's working more on the subconscious level. It may be that these folks are the most fortunate, if they heed the subconscious warnings that tell them, this is really not for them. I can't say if this is the case here, which is why I suggest she do some intensive problem-solving with the right support.

I'd venture to say by way of so many residents and fellows which I have worked that more than a smattering have determined that medicine is not what they would choose if they had it to do all over again.

Some people have a stronger subconscious indicator device, and once they get that it is their friend, it's a good thing. This is why I am a HUGE believer in getting as much clinical experience before hand as you can. You may be able to get through the first 2 years of intensive didactic, even though it may not be all that thrilling. It's how you feel about residency beyond the normal feelings of living your life only for it--and then you have to live with doing this thing for the rest of your life.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Ultimately, SDN is just a bunch of people talking over the Internet. If you apply, it will cost you only time and money, and the bruises to your ego that stem from rejection. You're not going to damage yourself by applying to LUCOM and the other DO schools that tend to be more forgiving on the MCAT.

From an adcom's perspective, a person with a 24 shouldn't be admitted, because them failing Step 1 would damage the school's reputation. (can't DO students take COMLEX instead of USMLE? What are the pass rates for that for someone with a 24?) Adcoms are risk-averse and have the privilege of selecting from the best applicants. From a student's perspective, a 10% chance of them failing Step 1 probably doesn't have a big deterrent effect.

There are three outcomes here: either the student gets rejected and finds a new career, or the student gets accepted and passes Step 1 and lives happily ever after, or the Catastrophic Bad Outcome of the student getting accepted and failing Step 1 and being saddled with massive debt and no marketable skills. The Catastrophic Bad Outcome is exceedingly unlikely, occurring probably only about 2% of the time, with the most likely outcome being simple rejection. I suggest the student applies next cycle (getting a bit late for this one) one last time just to get any regrets that may arise down the road out of the way. It's better to try and fail than to give up and live the rest of your life regretting not even trying.