lailanni

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I am curious if this happens at other schools:

Entering 3rd year there is an applied anatomy class. This class is optional but teaches you cool and relavant things you will use in the real world. They only take 40 people in this class citing lack of space/time/resources/some bad reason. Because of overwhelming interest, a lottery is held for a spot in the class.

If you don't get randomly selected in the lottry, too bad for you -- you don't get to learn any applied anatomy.

I find this unacceptable - if you are paying the same tution as someone else and want to learn you should be able to learn. It is applied anatomy, not something obscure. Everyone should have a chance to learn it.

Anyone else have a similar problem?
 

sumstorm

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hmmm...our selectives are done by a kind of ranking system that is also modified by focus area and seniority. IE someone in zoo med focus area will get a slot in primate med before anyone in other focus areas does, folks in 3rd year will get slots before 2nd and 1st years. That is as close as we come.

Of course, at the moment, there is a battle going on about whether it is fair that students at risk of not passing anatomy are getting extra help from professors. Because students not at risk are upset that they aren't getting the same oppurtunity.
 

Electrophile

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The last block before our clinical rotations start is the only one to take electives. This kinda sucks because you can only take two for credit, but a lot of people end up auditing so they have 3 total. But since I'm up for doing mixed practice when I graduate, it was more difficult to get into certain classes, especially the large animal and small animal surgery electives. They had some manner of how to chose people for those two classes, but I didn't get into the large animal one. Oh well, I had fun in behavior, PBL, and zoo medicine (audit) instead. :)
 

No Imagination

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I find this unacceptable - if you are paying the same tuition as someone else and want to learn you should be able to learn. It is applied anatomy, not something obscure. Everyone should have a chance to learn it.

Anyone else have a similar problem?
I am hearing ya, and I understand (and would also be quite pissed), but it sounds like the alternative would be to just not offer the class. I assume there is a reason they don't have the class more often (restrictions in curriculum, prof. time, ect).

So yeah, it sucks, but at least they are making it available in as fair a method as possible, and certainly better then the alternative then not offering it at all.

Of course, at the moment, there is a battle going on about whether it is fair that students at risk of not passing anatomy are getting extra help from professors. Because students not at risk are upset that they aren't getting the same opportunity.
As long as the 'help' is in the form of extra time spend with the students, I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that. Are the profs just not available at other times?

Maybe its very different then what I am used to, but last semester, I emailed a prof. the weekend before an exam with some questions, and he came into lab and spent an hour with me. They always make themselves available to us...
 

sumstorm

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As long as the 'help' is in the form of extra time spend with the students, I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that. Are the profs just not available at other times?

Maybe its very different then what I am used to, but last semester, I emailed a prof. the weekend before an exam with some questions, and he came into lab and spent an hour with me. They always make themselves available to us...
Yes, the help is time/reviews with a small group of student that, as individuals, asked for help. I HOPE the uproar has more to do with the general stress level at the moment (finals in one week, today is the start of 2014 welcome weekend, lots of projects, etc due.) The profs are available at other times (class, lab, office hours, etc.)
 

alliecat44

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We have very few electives--only three are offered and all in the third year (this is changing starting with the class of 2013).

The elective for hte fall--Bovine Palpation--was limited to a certain number of people. An email was sent out saying, "the first XX people who respond to this email will be enrolled."

I wrote to the administrator's office and stated that, if this had been an area of interest of mine, I would have been furious. The email sign-up meant that only those people who happened to be checking their email at the time it was sent had a chance to be in the class--which I thought was ridiculous! I suggested a sign-up followed by a lottery. As it is, I knew several very food-animal oriented people who were just out and about and not chcking thier email in the twenty minutes or so (if I remember correctly) that it took to fill the class.

They're offering a special advanced surgery elective this year for our fourth year--similar thing to your situation--it's only offered two rotations with 4 people (I think) on each. People submitted their names and it was a random draw.

I agree that it sucks--but as long as it's a lottery system, I think it's fair. The school likely just does not have the money to pay for equipment, cadavers, staff, etc. Might change over the years if there's an increased demand--though it doesn't help you this year.

P.S. I remember the same thing sumstorm described--people upset about those getting "extra" help--which I think is ridiculous. These people asked for help and they're receiving outside of class hours--everyone has the same opportunity if they just ask. Also, usually these are people who are trying to pass--not transform a B into an A. I didn't begrudge them at all!

Skipping class regularly to study for exams is a different story... :rolleyes: But I digress! :)
 
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critterfixer

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We have the opportunity to take electives in second semester of second year and both semesters of third year, and several of them are either open to however many people want to take them or are offered in both years.

That said, there are certain electives that are space limited, especially the surgery ones. I was lucky to get a spot in the spay and neuter elective, because it has really helped me to not be so terrified of surgery. Frankly, that only 18 people get to take it does seem unfair to me. I think it should be a mandatory class before clinics.

But several others took soft tissue surgery (unfortunately terminal) and orthopedic surgery (on cadavers), so most everyone got to take some kind of surgery elective. Ours are all handled by lottery. You sign up for the ones you want, and if there are excess students, it is decided by random lottery number, so it is fair.

I can't imagine having electives in only one semester. I've had the opportunity over the last 2 years to take Wildlife Diseases, Small Animal Medical Problems (basically learning to come up with appropriate differentials, tests, and treatment protocols), Pain Management (and got to learn how to place catheters and saw acupuncture and chiropractic demonstrated, as well as PT and rehab), Equine Case Discussions, Spay and Neuter clinic, Feline Medicine, and Advanced Nutrition and critical care feeding.
 

sumstorm

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P.S. I remember the same thing sumstorm described--people upset about those getting "extra" help--which I think is ridiculous. These people asked for help and they're receiving outside of class hours--everyone has the same opportunity if they just ask. Also, usually these are people who are trying to pass--not transform a B into an A. I didn't begrudge them at all!

Skipping class regularly to study for exams is a different story... :rolleyes: But I digress! :)
Yep, you nailed it on the head. people wanting to improve a B vs people failing. It really makes those needing help feel even worse. hard to know folks getting decent grades begrudge students getting help to pass. It also suprised me to hear the gripes from students that are generally not gunners.
 

alliecat44

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I've had the opportunity over the last 2 years to take Wildlife Diseases, Small Animal Medical Problems (basically learning to come up with appropriate differentials, tests, and treatment protocols), Pain Management (and got to learn how to place catheters and saw acupuncture and chiropractic demonstrated, as well as PT and rehab), Equine Case Discussions, Spay and Neuter clinic, Feline Medicine, and Advanced Nutrition and critical care feeding.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: That's freaking awesome. Yet another reason why UTK rocks. :) :) :)
 

sumstorm

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yeah, I can't imagine only having a few electives. ours start first semester first year (zoo med) and more are available each semester. some are spread out over the entire year.
 

1CellNtheSea

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I am curious if this happens at other schools:

Entering 3rd year there is an applied anatomy class. This class is optional but teaches you cool and relavant things you will use in the real world. They only take 40 people in this class citing lack of space/time/resources/some bad reason. Because of overwhelming interest, a lottery is held for a spot in the class.

If you don't get randomly selected in the lottry, too bad for you -- you don't get to learn any applied anatomy.

I find this unacceptable - if you are paying the same tution as someone else and want to learn you should be able to learn. It is applied anatomy, not something obscure. Everyone should have a chance to learn it.

Anyone else have a similar problem?

Yep. We have a "Food Animal Techniques" elective that basically teaches you how to put a catheter in/draw blood, castrate, dehorn, nerve blocks etc. Things that would be useful to know how to do...

There are only ~40 spots (out of a class of 86) so some people are going to be disappointed. Many people in our class who are die-hard, to-the-bone, grew-up-around-it food animal people didn't get in. It was supposedly based on what you put on your application to vet school. Which is kind of stupid because interests change and also some of those die-hard FA people would surely have put that on their app. Somehow it ended up with all members of certain groups/cliques making it. (many of them who have no interest in eventually doing FA). I understand about lack of resources, etc but they could split it into groups - half the class each semester or something. But anyway, this turned into a vent, haha. Sorry! :oops:
 

sumstorm

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Yep. We have a "Food Animal Techniques" elective that basically teaches you how to put a catheter in/draw blood, castrate, dehorn, nerve blocks etc. Things that would be useful to know how to do...
Wow...those skills are part of our required core competencies...we can't graduate without them! We have drawn blood on goats, hogs, & heifers. we had to do goat castratios this year,we must do nerve blocks & dehorns next year (goats & heifers). Then there are plenty of oppurtunities to practice; 3 weeks ago I did 40+ blood draws, IM's,TB tests, & hoof trims at a goat dairy. We could have used more help! My understanding here is the only problematic class is equine dentistry selective.
 

1CellNtheSea

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Wow...those skills are part of our required core competencies...we can't graduate without them! We have drawn blood on goats, hogs, & heifers. we had to do goat castratios this year,we must do nerve blocks & dehorns next year (goats & heifers). Then there are plenty of oppurtunities to practice; 3 weeks ago I did 40+ blood draws, IM's,TB tests, & hoof trims at a goat dairy. We could have used more help! My understanding here is the only problematic class is equine dentistry selective.
We do get to that later - I'm only in my 2nd year. This fall we start doing surgeries (SA) and we do tons of blood draws, catheters, intubations, etc. We did goat castrations 2nd week of 1st year (to rope us in and think vet school is awesome! haha). I know our surgery class in 3rd year will teach us much more but it is mostly all small animal (to my understanding) and it would be nice to feel like I'm at the same plane as others heading into large animal things, at whatever point we do. I and many others in my class have done plenty of small animal things like blood draws, neuters, etc in our years working at a vet clinic but I would like to have some more large animal experience, that's where I think we're lacking. Everyone should be able to get the same hands-on experience. Sorry, should have clarified!
 

No Imagination

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Skipping class regularly to study for exams is a different story... :rolleyes: But I digress! :)
We have that going on now... The same people dont show up to class at all. I mean, I don't think i would recognize them as a student if they did show up. They miss exams on regularly, study all day while the rest of the class is in class (most classes are a waste of time IMO, could learn more in a quite room studying hard for that hour)

What kills me however, is the fact that classes are mandatory for all. Admin made it clear that if you miss class excessively without excuse, you could be removed from program.

Well, these people called the admins bluff, and they are being rewarded for it.

Not mad at the people who do it, but the admin who will A) Not change the policy or B) enforce the rules there own rules.

Maybe next year with more surgeries to do, things will get straightened out a bit
 
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dyachei

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We have that going on now... The same people dont show up to class at all. I mean, I don't think i would recognize them as a student if they did show up. Miss exams on a regularly, study all day while the rest of the class is in class (most classes are a waste of time IMO, could learn more in a quite room studying hard for that hour)

What kills me however, is the fact that classes are mandatory for all. Admin made it clear that if you miss class excessively without excuse, you could be removed from program.

Well, these people called the admins bluff, and they are being rewarded for it.

Not bad at the people who do it, but the admin who will A) Not change the policy or B) enforce the rules there own rules.

Maybe next year with more surgeries to do, things will get straightened out a bit
Our class also called the admin on their bluff. Most of this semester, half or more of the class has skipped all but mandatory labs and electives. There are only a handful that show up every day (including the people that walk in late). Whats ridiculous to me though is that the same people that skip are the ones that never know whats on the test. its one thing to need clarification from time to time, quite another to have to ask classmates constantly to have them tell you whats on the test.
 

sumstorm

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Our class also called the admin on their bluff. Most of this semester, half or more of the class has skipped all but mandatory labs and electives. There are only a handful that show up every day (including the people that walk in late). Whats ridiculous to me though is that the same people that skip are the ones that never know whats on the test. its one thing to need clarification from time to time, quite another to have to ask classmates constantly to have them tell you whats on the test.
I think we are the opposit. most of the class are devoted attendees. A few fall off on days with intense exams or first class, or late friday....I need to skip (ADD makes 80 people in a room impossible for me) but I am too conscious of 'I am PAYING for this.'
 

1CellNtheSea

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Our class also called the admin on their bluff. Most of this semester, half or more of the class has skipped all but mandatory labs and electives. There are only a handful that show up every day (including the people that walk in late). Whats ridiculous to me though is that the same people that skip are the ones that never know whats on the test. its one thing to need clarification from time to time, quite another to have to ask classmates constantly to have them tell you whats on the test.
We have the same problem of people skipping classes on exam days but our teachers nearly always give extra credit to the people there (pass around a sign-up sheet) or have a quiz like "what's your favorite color?". It's nice to know they appreciate us being there and are willing to reward us for it. In some classes where attendance is mandatory a sign-up sheet is passed around every day and perfect attendance (+/- 1-2 days) is counted in with your final grade.
 

jjohnston

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yeah, I can't imagine only having a few electives. ours start first semester first year (zoo med) and more are available each semester. some are spread out over the entire year.
Same here, I'm surprised that some schools don't even offer any electives until 2nd or 3rd year. I'm a first year, and fall quarter I took Small Animal Radiology case discussions, spring quarter I took Behavior and Biology of Mice and Comparative Anatomy and Physiology (where we covered everything from fish to elephants - amazing class!), and this quarter I'm taking Husbandry, Feeding and Management of Captive Animals and Large Animal Radiology case discussions. There are quite a few electives available to first year students, I have some friends taking the Shelter Medicine or Veterinary Practice Management electives this quarter.
 

sumstorm

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We have the same problem of people skipping classes on exam days but our teachers nearly always give extra credit to the people there (pass around a sign-up sheet) or have a quiz like "what's your favorite color?". It's nice to know they appreciate us being there and are willing to reward us for it. In some classes where attendance is mandatory a sign-up sheet is passed around every day and perfect attendance (+/- 1-2 days) is counted in with your final grade.
Half our class would be mistakenly counted as absent...we have a distinct inability to circulate sign ups in our classes. drives me insane. I wish we received EC for being in class. we can lose points in some classes, but the only extra points given were two 5 students that shaved their heads to raise money for cancer (1pt in a 700pt class.)
 

dyachei

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We have the same problem of people skipping classes on exam days but our teachers nearly always give extra credit to the people there (pass around a sign-up sheet) or have a quiz like "what's your favorite color?". It's nice to know they appreciate us being there and are willing to reward us for it. In some classes where attendance is mandatory a sign-up sheet is passed around every day and perfect attendance (+/- 1-2 days) is counted in with your final grade.
We get that occasionally. This semester was the worst however and that only happened in one class. And the extra credit was a question on the test she told us the answer to. It's just a little frustrating especially since not all teachers follow the syllabus There are so many that just don't bother finding out whats on the test until a few days before.