Not sure about disclosing expunged record for residency?

[PatchAdams25]

I am starting residency this summer and going through all the wonderful paper work that goes along with it. One of the questions states "Have you ever plead guilty to, been found guilty of a violation of any law, or been granted intervention or treatment in lieu of conviction"?

I was arrested for underage possession of alcohol as I got caught carrying a case of beer down the street as a freshman in college. This was later expunged off of my record. I talked to my lawyer and per the wording of an expungement in my state, "the event never occurred." So he says that legally I can say that this event never happened and therefore say no. However, I know this is a stupid charge and will not effect my ability to get licensure - the last thing I want to do is make a problem (not disclosing this when I should) where one does not exist.

Should I just disclose this information and move on?

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[zorcandpals]

The risks of disclosing as you have stated are pretty close to null and the risks of not disclosing are pretty high so probably just disclose and move on.

 

[Frogger27]

Disclose

 

[Dunadan]

I am not a legal professional. Further, I'm unfamiliar with ERAS.

Personally, I would side with my lawyer and refuse to disclose that information as it isn't their business.

Specifically, I would 1) not disclose 2) begin residency 3) consider telling the program director at some point down the line

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

Arrested only means changed, did this actually lead to a conviction?

 

[YCAGA]

I can’t think of a more insignificant thing to get arrested for. They wouldn’t even hold this against you in Utah. I like to think about these things as if a news headline was made about this situation.

“State Board Approved Medical License For Doctor Who Drank Beer at 19”

I don’t think anyone is worried about that getting spun as the medical licensing board being incompetent. Compare that to drug charges, violence, etc.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Answer truthfully... BUT no one cares about that...

The prior PD of our fellowship program had to go to rehab at 17 and later became sober... just to put things in perspective.

 

[Lawpy]

Expungement is useless if OP is forced to disclose

 

[PatchAdams25]

Arrested only means changed, did this actually lead to a conviction?

The question was not about "charges."

As another poster above mentioned, you need to clarify whether you pled guilty, were found guilty, it was dismissed, not guilty, etc.

Yes, I plead guilty and then this was expunged a year or so later.

 

[PatchAdams25]

is this for a licensing application or other hospital paperwork?

Residency onboarding - sounds like the Credentialing office at my hospital

 

[Detailsmatter]

go with what your lawyer says. based on what you posted and me not being a lawyer obviously, it seems like you don't have to disclose. make sure to send him/her the exact wording and they'll advise you properly. you would only have to actually disclose for licensing purposes as I understand it

 

[YCAGA]

The question was not about "charges."

As another poster above mentioned, you need to clarify whether you pled guilty, were found guilty, it was dismissed, not guilty, etc.

What? It was definitely about charges. Being arrested = being charged. Also, even if it wasn’t, damn you’re pedantic. I was just making a comparison to something that would actually hurt you like drug charges/convictions. Even charges matter unless you can prove you were framed or something (or were declared not guilty at trial).

 

[hamstergang]

Specifically, I would 1) not disclose 2) begin residency 3) consider telling the program director at some point down the line

Why would you ever tell your PD if you don't do so now?

 

[YCAGA]

I am not a legal professional. Further, I'm unfamiliar with ERAS.

Personally, I would side with my lawyer and refuse to disclose that information as it isn't their business.

Specifically, I would 1) not disclose 2) begin residency 3) consider telling the program director at some point down the line

wut

 

[Detailsmatter]

What? It was definitely about charges. Being arrested = being charged. Also, even if it wasn’t, damn you’re pedantic. I was just making a comparison to something that would actually hurt you like drug charges/convictions. Even charges matter unless you can prove you were framed or something (or were declared not guilty at trial).

You were saying this on another thread I believe and that’s just not true. No one cares if the charges were dropped. Maybe exception would be if it was some horrible crime you were accused of

 

[YCAGA]

You were saying this on another thread I believe and that’s just not true. No one cares if the charges were dropped. Maybe exception would be if it was some horrible crime you were accused of

Your username is amazingly ironic if you think that getting charged with serious, even if the charges are dropped, isn’t an issue for medical licensure. Charges get dropped or reduced in plea deals all the time, doesn’t mean you aren’t a criminal. You can’t tell a licensure board “oh yeah I was charged with felony distribution of heroin but I turned on my supplier so the charges were dropped and reduced to misdemeanor possession. I assume this isn’t an issue because I’m not technically a felon.” Or “yeah I was charged with domestic violence but my significant other refused to testify so they dropped the charges.”
Unless you were charged and then cleared of all wrong doing (common/required in some jurisdictions for self defense cases), charges still matter.

Why do you think you are required to disclose charges if they don’t matter?

 

[Lawpy]

ITT there are way too many people on here pretending to be lawyers

OP, play it safe and disclose. Seriously. Expungement is useless and exoneration destroys all records. Disclose and move on.

 

[Detailsmatter]

Your username is amazingly ironic if you think that getting charged with serious, even if the charges are dropped, isn’t an issue for medical licensure. Charges get dropped or reduced in plea deals all the time, doesn’t mean you aren’t a criminal. You can’t tell a licensure board “oh yeah I was charged with felony distribution of heroin but I turned on my supplier so the charges were dropped and reduced to misdemeanor possession. I assume this isn’t an issue because I’m not technically a felon.” Or “yeah I was charged with domestic violence but my significant other refused to testify so they dropped the charges.”
Unless you were charged and then cleared of all wrong doing (common/required in some jurisdictions for self defense cases), charges still matter.

Why do you think you are required to disclose charges if they don’t matter?

first of all, I specifically mentioned that exceptions could be serious crimes (of which felony heroin distribution is) and your example makes no sense there was still a conviction for a misdemeanor. second, charges are rarely if at all asked about on licensing applications. even if they're expunged, they'll show up on the background checks done for licensure but it still wont matter for most charges (especially misdemeanors). remember that anyone can be charged for anything.

 

[Detailsmatter]

ITT there are way too many people on here pretending to be lawyers

OP, play it safe and disclose. Seriously. Expungement is useless and exoneration destroys all records. Disclose and move on.

and you're one of them. telling OP to do anything other than consult their lawyer for what to do is the wrong answer

 

[Lawpy]

and you're one of them. telling OP to do anything other than consult their lawyer for what to do is the wrong answer

This isn't legal advice (although if you actually look it up, you'll see from lawyers stating that there's a difference between expunging and exonerating, including from a lawyer-turned-attending long time SDNer).

The attendings and senior faculty who actually review these things would always say to disclose anything expunged. This is true from AMCAS to ERAS to license etc.

This is an example from AMCAS side: Medical - How do I handle a current misdemeanor during application cycle?

This thread already has senior attendings suggesting to disclose. The theme is clear and OP must disclose.

 

[Lawpy]

Its important to realize expunging means records are sealed. If OP gets into trouble, the expunged records will be likely unsealed and failing to disclose that at that time of residency will get them in serious danger. OP can verify this with their lawyer but not disclosing sealed records is playing with fire. Which would be a shame because the charges are trivial when disclosed.

 

[YCAGA]

@YCAGA This was the question posted by OP:

"Have you ever plead guilty to, been found guilty of a violation of any law, or been granted intervention or treatment in lieu of conviction"

There may be a separate question whether you were charged, arrested, etc (I believe there was on my state's license application).

I don't think it is pedantic when these distinctions will change how you should respond to the question. Anyway, OP clarified that they plead guilty, so it's no longer an issue. I guess my comment offended you, but I didn't mean it as an attack, so sorry.

If you read critically, I only used the phrase “drug charges” in my original comment when comparing it to something mild like alcohol possession. Because there isn’t a single word for that crimes like robbery, assault, theft, so you have to say something like drug charges, drug crimes, drug arrests, drug conviction, etc. I wasn’t even talking about charges versus arrest to begin with. That’s why you were being pedantic. You chose one word, out of content, to try and make a snarky reply.

 

[Dunadan]

Why would you ever tell your PD if you don't do so now?

Some state medical license applications include background checks which report expunged records.

If one matches within such a state, then PD should be advised of the expunged record before the record complicates one's medical licensure.

 

[hamstergang]

Some state medical license applications include background checks which report expunged records.

If one matches within such a state, then PD should be advised of the expunged record before the record complicates one's medical licensure.

Then the PD should be told immediately, not at some later date. There's really nothing to be gained by waiting if you're going to disclose eventually. Trying to hide these things is what gets people in trouble. The residency may be applying for a training license already, and there may be background checks involved in setting up the resident at various hospitals (maybe there's a VA involved even), so if you think this might come up you should say it now.

Your post history says you're an MS-1 -- what do you even know about this?

 

[Dunadan]

Then the PD should be told immediately, not at some later date. There's really nothing to be gained by waiting if you're going to disclose eventually. Trying to hide these things is what gets people in trouble. The residency may be applying for a training license already, and there may be background checks involved in setting up the resident at various hospitals (maybe there's a VA involved even), so if you think this might come up you should say it now.

Your post history says you're an MS-1 -- what do you even know about this?

1)I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight; this isn't worth arguing about. I stated explicitly that I am not an expert.
2) Please knock off the authoritarian BS because it isn't oriented to the purpose of this anonymous forum. Further, this isn't even a specifically medical topic.
3) You haven't disagreed with anything I've said, so why are you attacking my credibility? Your ad hominem has no purpose.

 

[Frogger27]

Some state medical license applications include background checks which report expunged records.

If one matches within such a state, then PD should be advised of the expunged record before the record complicates one's medical licensure.

Why does the PD need to know about the expunged record lmao? OP is the one applying for the medical license and will have to disclose it if his state explicitly asks for expunged records, not the PD. As already stated, this charge won’t affect OP licensure at all, so what is the point of emailing PD “hey btw I got arrested when I was 19”

 

[hamstergang]

1)I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight; this isn't worth arguing about. I stated explicitly that I am not an expert.
2) Please knock off the authoritarian BS because it isn't oriented to the purpose of this anonymous forum. Further, this isn't even a specifically medical topic.
3) You haven't disagreed with anything I've said, so why are you attacking my credibility? Your ad hominem has no purpose.

Why give advice if you don't know what you're talking about?

I did disagree with you. You said to tell the PD not now, but later. I replied that if you're going to ever tell the PD, it should be done now.

 

[Dunadan]

Why give advice if you don't know what you're talking about?

I did disagree with you. You said to tell the PD not now, but later. I replied that if you're going to ever tell the PD, it should be done now.

Please re-read my original comment where I do not "give advice" and instead state what I would “personally” do.

You have to allow people to at least articulate their approaches to problems.

Again, this isn't a specifically medical question: neither of us are authorities on this matter.

We haven't defined "now" and "later," but frankly I don't see a point in continuing this discussion. You don't seem to respect the fact that people have lives outside of medicine, and you are blind to the multidisciplinary nature of this question.

 

[Santiago the shepherd]

I am starting residency this summer and going through all the wonderful paper work that goes along with it. One of the questions states "Have you ever plead guilty to, been found guilty of a violation of any law, or been granted intervention or treatment in lieu of conviction"?

I was arrested for underage possession of alcohol as I got caught carrying a case of beer down the street as a freshman in college. This was later expunged off of my record. I talked to my lawyer and per the wording of an expungement in my state, "the event never occurred." So he says that legally I can say that this event never happened and therefore say no. However, I know this is a stupid charge and will not effect my ability to get licensure - the last thing I want to do is make a problem (not disclosing this when I should) where one does not exist.

Should I just disclose this information and move on?

Following up on this. What did OP do? I am in an almost identical situation...

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Disclose it. Your having been arrested as an 18-year-old college freshmen for some bush league youthful idiocy isn't a big deal. Your being seen as potentially dishonest, however, might be. Nobody really cares about the fact that you got busted ten years ago for carrying a case of beer down the street like a dumb college freshman whose judgment might've been impaired by that case of beer...