Not waiving my right to see rec letters

[Biochemist3412]

Hi all,

What are the cons of not waiving my right to see my letters from only one school of the many I am applying to? I'm pretty sure I won't get in, this school is a reach...

Thought this might be an opportunity to see what my letter writers wrote without any high stakes, I am interested if anyone has any experience with this, thanks!

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[LeeSin]

Is this UCSD?

Are you sure the waiver means what you think it does? I'm pretty sure they're just asking you to confirm you haven't seen your letters before and your recommenders have done it independently. It wouldn't be like you deny the waiver and then they let you access your own letters...

We'd need someone else to confirm it

 

[Mr.Smile12]

FERPA states that you must waive your rights for any representative of your university to discuss your academic record. Not waiving your right prevents them from sending a letter discussing your performance in any academic setting., including any positive comments about your preparation for graduate school. Thus they can only confirm you were enrolled at the school to be compliant if you don't waive.

 

[LizzyM]

FERPA states that you must waive your rights for any representative of your university to discuss your academic record. Not waiving your right prevents them from sending a letter discussing your performance in any academic setting., including any positive comments about your preparation for graduate school. Thus they can only confirm you were enrolled at the school to be compliant if you don't waive.

I do think that you are combining two different things. One is whether a school or a school official can release information from your record beyond some basic information that is permitted by federal law (FERPA). You give permission to release your transcripts, for example. That doesn't mean you've waived your right to see your transcript.

The law permits you to see anything in your school records (and a letter of recommendation would be a school record) and you can waive your RIGHT to see some things in your record.

@Biochemist3412 If you've waived your right to see a letter, you have waived your right. There are no "take backs".

Generally, it is assumed that when a student does not waive the right to read the letter that the writer of that letter may be less than candid with their opinion of the student and the value of the letter will be greatly discounted by the recipients (adcoms).

 

[Deltasidearm]

Choose writers that you are confident that will write you a good letter, specifically ask them if they can write you a good letter when you ask, and check your vanity at the door. You have nothing to gain from reading those letters other than to stoke your ego.

 

[Goro]

Hi all,

What are the cons of not waiving my right to see my letters from only one school of the many I am applying to? I'm pretty sure I won't get in, this school is a reach...

Thought this might be an opportunity to see what my letter writers wrote without any high stakes, I am interested if anyone has any experience with this, thanks!

Your LORs will be considered to have been compromised and not honest assessments/evaluations of you.

 

[mike-sheree]

It is somewhat surprising that “liability” has not altered the ” recommendation“ process as it has in the business world. Due to fears of litigation, many, many H.R. departments will only confirm dates of employment and job position. Makes me wonder when the frustrated premed lawsuits will begin.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It is somewhat surprising that “liability” has not altered the ” recommendation“ process as it has in the business world. Due to fears of litigation, many, many H.R. departments will only confirm dates of employment and job position. Makes me wonder when the frustrated premed lawsuits will begin.

This is definitely a hot topic now. Would Situational Judgment tests provide a complimentary or more reliable assessments of a candidate's competencies and potential than letters of recommendation?

 

[eigen]

It is somewhat surprising that “liability” has not altered the ” recommendation“ process as it has in the business world. Due to fears of litigation, many, many H.R. departments will only confirm dates of employment and job position. Makes me wonder when the frustrated premed lawsuits will begin.

This is one of the reasons that letters where a student hasn't waived their right to view aren't taken as seriously. There are absolutely cases (rare) of students suing faculty for poor letters of evaluation.

I know if I got a letter request and the student didn't waive their right, I would decline for two reasons: 1) my recommendation wouldn't be taken seriously, and it's no longer worth my time to write it, and 2) I'd worry about liability for giving a candid evaulation of the student, even if it was overall favorable.

Some interesting reading on legal rulings and letters: Recommendation Letters and the Law | Writing Recommendation Letters Online

It's definitely gotten to be increasingly more paperwork to write letters: I have to get students to sign a FERPA release with all of the things I'm allowed to disclose from their educational records, where I'm allowed to send letters, and for what time I'm allowed to send letters. For committee letters, I have to get students to sign a FERPA release for every person at the institution contributing to the letter as well as the entire committee. These have to be kept on file in our university registrar's office, and I've also been advised to keep them in my personal records.

 

[mike-sheree]

In my opinion, the subjectivity of LOR’s and human nature make letters of recommenation moot. Anything meaningful a LOR may illuminate should be objectively demonstrable.

 

[eigen]

In my opinion, the subjectivity of LOR’s and human nature make letters of recommenation moot. Anything meaningful a LOR may illuminate should be objectively demonstrable.

I'd argue that a lot of the core competencies medical schools are looking for are not "objectively demonstratable". They should absolutely be supported by fact-based observations, but how exactly would you objectively measure someones "service orientation"? What about "cultural competence"?

Biases absolutely exist in recommendations, but most of the things they are aiming to capture are absolutely subjective qualities. What defines someones "service orientation" isn't an objective number of hours, or how many different things they've done. It also encompasses their attitude, their reason for doing it, and how they behave while working in a service role.

Honestly, take a look through this list (Core Competencies for Entering Medical Students). Which do you think can be truly objectively measured? The thinking and science competencies come closest, but even they have subjective measures in them.

 

[mike-sheree]

I'd argue that a lot of the core competencies medical schools are looking for are not "objectively demonstratable". They should absolutely be supported by fact-based observations, but how exactly would you objectively measure someones "service orientation"? What about "cultural competence"?

Biases absolutely exist in recommendations, but most of the things they are aiming to capture are absolutely subjective qualities. What defines someones "service orientation" isn't an objective number of hours, or how many different things they've done. It also encompasses their attitude, their reason for doing it, and how they behave while working in a service role.

Honestly, take a look through this list (Core Competencies for Entering Medical Students). Which do you think can be truly objectively measured? The thinking and science competencies come closest, but even they have subjective measures in them.

I will be the first to admit that when I applied to med school, evaluation of these “ soft” social skills was non- existent. And, I believe, most of us “ self selected “ based on our possession or lack thereof of these important traits. For example, I, and many if not most practioners in my specialty dislike patient contact. But, I excelled in my field because i adhered to the first Delphic maxim” first know yourself” and self selected pathology.
I think there is a field within medicine for everyone and universal possession of certain admirable social skills by prospective physicians is neither necessary or desirable.

It is a tough problem though. The process should involve more than basically GPA and MCAT solely as in my day. That’s where our instrument throwing surgeons came from.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I'd argue that a lot of the core competencies medical schools are looking for are not "objectively demonstratable". They should absolutely be supported by fact-based observations, but how exactly would you objectively measure someones "service orientation"? What about "cultural competence"?

Biases absolutely exist in recommendations, but most of the things they are aiming to capture are absolutely subjective qualities. What defines someones "service orientation" isn't an objective number of hours, or how many different things they've done. It also encompasses their attitude, their reason for doing it, and how they behave while working in a service role.

Honestly, take a look through this list (Core Competencies for Entering Medical Students). Which do you think can be truly objectively measured? The thinking and science competencies come closest, but even they have subjective measures in them.

The horse has already left the barn. on this. Competencies are everywhere in medical education, including and in spite of flaws. I doubt any truly objective evaluations of clerkships exist, but there are competencies that guide them in assigning a grade. Even MMI's, OSCE's, and clinical judgment high-stakes exams specifically design questions to test for these competencies.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In my opinion, the subjectivity of LOR’s and human nature make letters of recommenation moot. Anything meaningful a LOR may illuminate should be objectively demonstrable.

You aren't wrong on this. "Reliability" of LOR's is low in any application process. That's why the MMI, Altus, and PREview exams were developed.

 

[LizzyM]

I'd love to see the LOR requirements eliminated. This more than anything, I think, favors the well-connected and those at small (expensive) LACs over big, (inexpensive) state universities and community colleges.

 

[Rapsidy]

I'd love to see the LOR requirements eliminated. This more than anything, I think, favors the well-connected and those at small (expensive) LACs over big, (inexpensive) state universities and community colleges.

I think that is an interesting perspective, however I wonder what you would put instead of LORs? Just take them away without replacing them with something else?

Also it might not be a popular opinion but I feel that taking away LORs would directly hurt nontraditonal students. Many of us rely on the more subjective measures outside of MCAT and GPA because we had to do grade repair or go back to school later in life, so the LORs can be a huge boost to our application. I used one from a science teacher, my boss, and the physician I shadowed, never even considering a committee letter as I didn’t have access to that.

 

[LizzyM]

I think that you, and every non-trad, can tell your own story. You listed your employment in the Work/Activities section. You listed your shadowing there. We saw the grades you earned from your science teacher. What makes you think that the letters from those people did anything at all to make your case?

 

[Goro]

When multiple LOR writers say great things about a candidate, that says something about the candidate.

And most candidates get OK letters, not multiple great ones.

Hence, it's a bar to cross. Bad LORs are rare, but sink a medical career. OL LORs are like passing a P/F course; they show competency in the candidate to impress others.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

This is why it's good to confirm that the writer of the LOR can provide a strong letter. I have read several that had comments in the body that were not complementary.

Choose writers that you are confident that will write you a good letter, specifically ask them if they can write you a good letter when you ask, and check your vanity at the door. You have nothing to gain from reading those letters other than to stoke your ego.

I have had several students ask me this very question for residency LORs.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Outside of this field, standardizing letters has been an ongoing topic.

The Common Letter of Recommendation (LOR)

www.gmac.com

The Standardized Letter of Recommendation: Implications for Selection SLR

A multidimensional Rasch investigation suggests that the seven scales of the SLR displayed satisfactory psychometric properties in terms of reliability, model fit, item fit statistics, and discrimination. The two cognitive scales, knowledge and analytical skills, were found to be the best...

www.ets.org

How to Write a Letter of Recommendation (Template + Tips)

Learn how to write a letter of recommendation, including tips on what to include and when to say no.

www.coursera.org

 

[eigen]

I'd love to see the LOR requirements eliminated. This more than anything, I think, favors the well-connected and those at small (expensive) LACs over big, (inexpensive) state universities and community colleges.

Not sure I agree with the latter part entirely, but I could get on board with the sentiment as a whole. It would free up hundreds of hours in my year to help students focus on their development and their materials.

I'm not sure it wouldn't still benefit primarily students who can afford application coaches and who go to "elite" programs who have staff to focus on helping students develop their materials. In my experience, letters serve as a leveling effect across students with differing levels of means, but that may just be a factor of the small subset of thoughtfully written letters I mostly work with.

I would worry if LORs were replaced with the newer testing suites that are being developed: I'm seeing a lot of worrying trends among students taking them from cultures less traditionally represented in the academy and medicine.

 

[mike-sheree]

In my ideal world (i am a 1977 U of Ill Chicago alum) the interview would take supremacy after the GPA/MCAT and written ( i used to say paper) contents of the application IF those allowed the applicant to progress to that level.
They don’t do this in med school but when i had very high financial/job-stakes-on-the-line interviews with potential physician hirees I would spend some TIme. Probably dinner with another doc in the group. If she/he drinks- how do they do. Do they laugh appropriately. Before I was hired, my wife and I joined everyone(~25 folks) at an annual weekend retreat.
You get the idea.

Much better than any MMI or whatever for a shark with an i.q.of 150.

 

[troy&abedintheAM]

Your LORs will be considered to have been compromised and not honest assessments/evaluations of you.

if OP waives his right to see the his LORs, will the LORs be considered to have been compromised/not honest assessments at ALL the schools OP applies to or only at the school where he waives his right? i'm clearly confused about this.

 

[i-doctor]

As a slightly paranoid person,…when I applied to ophtho residency many years ago, I had something like 4-5 LOR’s, but most programs required only three or four. I sent my 2 Ophtho LOR’s to all programs, and only one or two other LOR’s to each program. However, since I was not completely sure about the quality of the other 3 LOR’s, I randomly rotated them…so that each LOR was only sent to 2/3 of the programs. That is, if one of those LOR’s were bad, 1/3 of the programs would NOT see it. (All LOR’s were sent directly to the individual programs at that time).
Good thing I did. I found out later on that one letter was indeed bad. And I wound up getting matched at a program that did not receive that letter.

 

[aurevoir0711]

As a slightly paranoid person,…when I applied to ophtho residency many years ago, I had something like 4-5 LOR’s, but most programs required only three or four. I sent my 2 Ophtho LOR’s to all programs, and only one or two other LOR’s to each program. However, since I was not completely sure about the quality of the other 3 LOR’s, I randomly rotated them…so that each LOR was only sent to 2/3 of the programs. That is, if one of those LOR’s were bad, 1/3 of the programs would NOT see it. (All LOR’s were sent directly to the individual programs at that time).
Good thing I did. I found out later on that one letter was indeed bad. And I wound up getting matched at a program that did not receive that letter.

How did you end up prioritizing letters though? Did you just randomly assign each letter to random programs after making sure that the proportion is the same for each letter? Did you have a suspicion about a specific letter, so you can assign them for less desirable programs?

 

[i-doctor]

How did you end up prioritizing letters though? Did you just randomly assign each letter to random programs after making sure that the proportion is the same for each letter? Did you have a suspicion about a specific letter, so you can assign them for less desirable programs?

I did it randomly. I did have a suspicion, but since I applied broadly to 70 programs—and knew little about most of them—I didn’t assign them specifically. Random.
My Ophtho letters were great. I did get an interview at one program which got the bad letter. (A resident doc on the committee actually said in the interview “what’s the deal with that one LOR?”)

 

[LizzyM]

if OP waives his right to see the his LORs, will the LORs be considered to have been compromised/not honest assessments at ALL the schools OP applies to or only at the school where he waives his right? i'm clearly confused about this.

The right to see the letter is based on your your rights as a student at the school that has an academic file on you, not the school you are applying to. Federal law (FERPA) gives you the right to examine your academic record including items such as letters written on your behalf by a staff or faculty member, or items sent to the school for inclusion in your file (e.g. an employer sends a letter to be included in a letter packet issued by the school).

You waive your right or you don't and this is almost always mentioned by the letter writer (it is a best practice for letter writers).

 

[Goro]

if OP waives his right to see the his LORs, will the LORs be considered to have been compromised/not honest assessments at ALL the schools OP applies to or only at the school where he waives his right? i'm clearly confused about this.

I'm not aware that one can do this for a specific school. Clearly, if a reader sees "I have waived my rights to...", then all is good.

 

[SooConfused]

if OP waives his right to see the his LORs, will the LORs be considered to have been compromised/not honest assessments at ALL the schools OP applies to or only at the school where he waives his right? i'm clearly confused about this.

I'm reasonably sure OP asked the wrong question, and that the waiver attaches to the letter, not the school receiving it. If this were not the case, the waivers would be meaningless, since, as OP is asking, everyone would be able to send letters to one throwaway school for the purpose of reading them.

The writer needs to know whether or not a waiver was granted BEFORE the letter is written, so they can know how candid they should be. Once it is granted, it follows the letter, and does not vary depending on who receives it.

 

[eigen]

Waiving the right to see letters is specific to the school you’re applying to, or AMCAS system as a whole. When I receive a letter request, it tells me whether he student I’m writing for has waived their right to see the letter or not.

Once I submit a letter, it becomes part of your educational records at the school you applied to (an application file) and you could request access to the contents of that file via FERPA.

Waiving that right means you won’t get rejected, request copies of letters, and sue your recommenders. That makes people feel more comfortable about being honest in their assessment of you.

 

[SooConfused]

Waiving the right to see letters is specific to the school you’re applying to, or AMCAS system as a whole. When I receive a letter request, it tells me whether he student I’m writing for has waived their right to see the letter or not.

Once I submit a letter, it becomes part of your educational records at the school you applied to (an application file) and you could request access to the contents of that file via FERPA.

Waiving that right means you won’t get rejected, request copies of letters, and sue your recommenders. That makes people feel more comfortable about being honest in their assessment of you.

Now I'm confused. Are you saying that if I waive my right to see the letter, and you write a candid letter based on that waiver, that I could still request access to the letter via a FERPA request to any school that receives it?

If true, the waiver would then be meaningless. I'm pretty sure the school would withhold the letter based on the waiver that is attached to the letter you submitted on my behalf.

 

[LizzyM]

Waiving the right to see letters is specific to the school you’re applying to, or AMCAS system as a whole. When I receive a letter request, it tells me whether he student I’m writing for has waived their right to see the letter or not.

Once I submit a letter, it becomes part of your educational records at the school you applied to (an application file) and you could request access to the contents of that file via FERPA.

Waiving that right means you won’t get rejected, request copies of letters, and sue your recommenders. That makes people feel more comfortable about being honest in their assessment of you.

For exactly the reason you've outlined, most schools will not make the LORs a part of your school file if you are admitted and matriculate. You aren't covered by FERPA at a given school until you matriculate so if the letter never becomes part of your file, you won't be able to ask to see it under FERPA.

And given that the letter (or a signed check box on a cover sheet) says that you've waived your right to see the letter, if the receiving school did put it in your file, if would be shielded from you because you waived your right under FERPA.

 

[eigen]

Yeah, I think a lot of grad and law schools are moving in that direction as well. When I was in graduate school the department office had paper copies of every students file (including letters).

 

[eigen]

Now I'm confused. Are you saying that if I waive my right to see the letter, and you write a candid letter based on that waiver, that I could still request access to the letter via a FERPA request to any school that receives it?

I have not seen anyone do a FERPA waiver with a submitted letter. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but for those of us writing them it is not common practice.

With committee letters, we have students waive the right to access the letters our committee receives and stores: those are part of the educational records at our school.

Similarly, faculty need a signed FERPA release to write a letter- this is the student authorizing permission for a faculty member to share information from their educational record outside of the school (to employers, graduate programs, etc.)

For letters going through centralized processes (such as AMCAS), the waiver is part of the AMCAS or ACOMAS system. For instance, when I get a letter request through Liason (for dental school or DO programs or such), it tells me as a letter writer whether the person requesting it has waived their right to view the letter or not before I submit. That waiver then goes to schools along with the letter.

For things like post-bac and graduate programs where letters often go straight to a school, the school receiving the letter asks the student to waive (or not waive) their right, and communicates that to the student.

Essentially, the waiver is tied to the recipient of the letter, not the writer, as it's part of the educational records at the school the student is applying to.

It's an (increasingly complex) process for letter writers and institutions to keep track of- as LizzyM says, some schools response is to ensure they don't keep letters as part of educational records, which means they cannot be requested. And yes, it's certainly the case that when I'm sending letters (e.g., for grad school) to 10 or 12 individual schools, a student could try to game the system by not waiving their rights at one school to try to see it, and the writer needs to review the submission portal for each time they submit the letter.