Now, a cautionary tale...

[bedevilled ben]

Still if step one is mostly undergrad material, makes you wonder what's on it.

I audibly snorted at this. Step 1 is most definitely not undergrad material.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[W19]

I audibly snorted at this. Step 1 is most definitely not undergrad material.

He probably meant basic science...

 

[Skip Intro]

It's best to pass your boards 1st attempt, but if you don't, it's not like game over as if you were a carib student... Maybe @Skip Intro can chime on that..

I know more than a few people who failed Step 1 on the first try and did fine (depending on how you define "fine") when it came time for the Match. Of course, that was almost 10 years ago now.

I think the point is to absolutely rock the Steps on the first try, especially coming from the Caribbean. This series of tests are probably the single most important benchmarks in your medical education. Not only passing them on the first try but also getting a great score removes a lot of doubt in a lot of people's minds.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

Still if step one is mostly undergrad material, makes you wonder what's on it.

This is patently false. Maybe you meant the MCAT is undergrad material?

Step 1 is heavily medical-based, especially with tons of pathology and many other questions that actually force you to "think" and not just regurgitate information.

-Skip

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I actually attend the school that dude is talking about. I might have even met him. There were two 40 year old white guys at the school and one of them was indeed from the south and was either an EMT or RN--I don't remember.

I really don't have much to say here except that I think the dude committed financial suicide chasing a pipe dream--which is not the best reason to get into medicine. My entire tuition for four years at the school (and food/rent) cost me less than $100,000--which I think is pretty reasonable.

Someone mentioned the school being a "piece of trash". My experiences there were mixed. The basic sciences professors were surprisingly adept, but they inexplicably didn't have professors for the fourth basic science semester. Most of the clinical rotations were superb, but the middlemen the school was affiliated with were sociopaths. Some of that's changed for the better, and last year the school matched 18-20/25 students, which is small, but a decent clip. I've independently verified most of them because I rotated with many of them--but they're mostly located at Harbor Hospital in Baltimore.

I still wouldn't do it again. I've got nine interviews in psychiatry for this year's match, but the stigma attached to being a "****ty IMG" follows me around like herpes. While studying for my steps, I got to know a medical student who went to my state's medical school. He failed three classes, failed step 1, failed CS, applied super late in November for EM and got his first choice. I'd love that coddling treatment because even though I failed nothing and excelled everywhere, I have to go into the crapshoot of the match, which is seldom kind to IMG's. I should have taken a year off and applied to US schools because I still think my poor/okay MCAT of 29 and GPA of 3.7 would have taken me further.

You are right that you could most likely been accepted to US medical school. Your applicant stats are predictive of success in medical school, adequate performance on the Steps, etc. You are an entirely different picture than your classmate.

People like you have a pretty good chance of making it through the Caribbean gauntlet. The question is why, if you have the opportunity to go a less risky route? However, I don't think that your decision was all that crazy.

In your case, if you match in a Psych residency in an area with a low cost of living, you could conceivably pay a very large proportion of your loans off while in residency, if you owe less than $100K total debt. That is, if you are willing to live very frugally. If you did a fellowship, like child/adolescent or forensic, you could conceivably pay it off.

Psych has some of the best work hours in residency, so what you lack in spending money, you will have in free time. It is a wealth of a different kind, no?

Psych is in such great demand, that you will likely be able to command your destiny, post graduation, especially if you are not weighed down with crippling debt.

That, my friend, is winning.

Good luck to you in this match, and think hard about the COL.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

This is patently false. Maybe you meant the MCAT is undergrad material?

Step 1 is heavily medical-based, especially with tons of pathology and many other questions that actually force you to "think" and not just regurgitate information.

-Skip

True, it's not undergrad material.
I meant to say it's on par with your performance there.

Previous research has established that Step 1 scores correlate moderately with pre-admission factors (MCAT, undergraduate GPA) on the individual level. The following data, from 2011/2012 available via USNWR, demonstrate that this correlation holds at the school-wide level at the very top ranked institutions.
https://anastomosed.wordpress.com/2...chools-mcatgpa-as-predictors-of-usmle-scores/

 

[bedevilled ben]

True, it's not undergrad material.
I meant to say it's on par with your performance there.

Previous research has established that Step 1 scores correlate moderately with pre-admission factors (MCAT, undergraduate GPA) on the individual level. The following data, from 2011/2012 available via USNWR, demonstrate that this correlation holds at the school-wide level at the very top ranked institutions.
https://anastomosed.wordpress.com/2...chools-mcatgpa-as-predictors-of-usmle-scores/

All this is saying is that past performance is moderately correlated with future success when it comes to education and test-taking. Good students and good test-takers tend to be good students and good test-takers.

As Skip said, the Steps are not about regurgitating a bunch of information you memorized. If you're really curious about the content, you could pick up a copy of First Aid for the USMLE. All of the facts that you need to know to do well on the exam are in that book. But memorizing FA will not ensure a good score on the exam. Again, if you're really curious you can look up some online examples of old Step 1 questions. They're purposefully vague and confusing and asked in unusual ways. The diagnostic buzzword pattern-seeking behavior that you've so carefully honed in years 1 and 2 get thrown right out the window. I know some very smart people that did very well on that exam. Every single person I've asked, both from the Caribbean and US, has said that they walked out of the testing center convinced that they had failed.

 

[user3]

Dude, you totally should have gone DO. You probably could have gotten into MSU, PCOM, or any of the other big-name schools with those stats.

I don't know about them being the majority, but the bolded is why they're dead meat if they show up on our door step wanting to become DOs after either flunking out of a Carib school, or deciding they really didn't like the place. They had their chance.

From what I have been seeing in SDN, a good majority of people who are going to the BIG 4 could have been accepted to DO school. Some of them could have taken a year extra to strengthen their applications just to be in that more secure pathway, but for some reason , they have decided against it.....

I agree with you that people should consider the financial ramification of going to an offshore school (excluding PR and Hawaii)... I am about to complete my 1st semester at a US low tier MD and I am doing ok so far in my classes, but I am still scared to death that if something goes wrong I might end up having a 25ok student debt and have nothing to show for it... I can't imagine how my mindset would be if I was attending on of these carib schools... From what I have been seeing in SDN, a good majority of people who are going to the BIG 4 could have been accepted to DO school. Some of them could have taken a year extra to strengthen their applications just to be in that more secure pathway, but for some reason , they have decided against it.....

this perplexes me. I do not understand why so many DO-competitive premeds resort to caribbean. For whatever reason, it seems that many still do not respect D.O. as a legitimate option for medical school.

For many premeds that miss the cut for MD, it seems like they are typically much more aware of the caribbean route-- while uninformed or downright misinformed about DO schools, which is unfortunate.

 

[Goro]

You hit the nail right on the head here.

For many premeds that miss the cut for MD, it seems like they are typically much more aware of the caribbean route-- while uninformed or downright misinformed about DO schools, which is unfortunate.

 

[user3]

You hit the nail right on the head here.

For many premeds that miss the cut for MD, it seems like they are typically much more aware of the caribbean route-- while uninformed or downright misinformed about DO schools, which is unfortunate.

so why is that? why are premeds far more likely to have heard of (and have some respect for) the big 4 carib, but not DO schools?

Close to 50,000 people apply to MD schools every year, yet less than 18,000 apply to even 1 DO.

 

[deleted480308]

so why is that? why are premeds far more likely to have heard of (and have some respect for) the big 4 carib, but not DO schools?

Close to 50,000 people apply to MD schools every year, yet less than 18,000 apply to even 1 DO.

Because they don't really research the career at all

 

[user3]

Because they don't really research the career at all

Our schools are frustratingly obscure to both the public and premeds. It is upsetting that premeds are much more likely to know about SGU or Ross than CCOM or PCOM. Even though the former two are in 3rd world countries and latter two have existed here on our soil for decades. It almost defies logic.

Yea, I guess most people just don't research DO schools. But honestly, I have to wonder where we have gone wrong...

 

[Goro]

They want the MD. reasons for not choosing DO are lack of knowledge about the profession, or parental pressure, or spurious reasons like "DOs can't practice in other countries" [like these kids are going to rush out to practice in Botswana after graduation] or they think DOs only do Family Practice and can't specialize.

so why is that? why are premeds far more likely to have heard of (and have some respect for) the big 4 carib, but not DO schools?

Close to 50,000 people apply to MD schools every year, yet less than 18,000 apply to even 1 DO.

 

[jakeislove]

Our schools are frustratingly obscure to both the public and premeds. It is upsetting that premeds are much more likely to know about SGU or Ross than CCOM or PCOM. Even though the former two are in 3rd world countries and latter two have existed here on our soil for decades. It almost defies logic.

Yea, I guess most people just don't research DO schools. But honestly, I have to wonder where we have gone wrong...

The stigma is pretty bad in some cultures. Not Chiropractor bad but pretty bad, LOL!

 

[GypsyHummus]

Our schools are frustratingly obscure to both the public and premeds. It is upsetting that premeds are much more likely to know about SGU or Ross than CCOM or PCOM. Even though the former two are in 3rd world countries and latter two have existed here on our soil for decades. It almost defies logic.

Yea, I guess most people just don't research DO schools. But honestly, I have to wonder where we have gone wrong...

its all good, more spots for me!

 

[user3]

its all good, more spots for me!

sigh...

 

[bedevilled ben]

They want the MD. reasons for not choosing DO are lack of knowledge about the profession, or parental pressure, or spurious reasons like "DOs can't practice in other countries" [like these kids are going to rush out to practice in Botswana after graduation] or they think DOs only do Family Practice and can't specialize.

This hasn't been my experience at SGU at all and I think you're ignoring one of the Caribbean's biggest strengths: the diversity of its student body. Most US students consider DO, but it's not as trivially easy to switch gears application-wise from MD programs to DO programs as you're making it sound. DO schools do not want students that look at their programs as "USMD backups". They want students that at least pay cursory lip-service to the DO ethos. Furthermore, most DO programs are not super-friendly to international students or non-US students, and at least at SGU approximately 1/3 of the student body are non-US citizens. Finally, I think you're selling Caribbean students short when it comes to global medicine. It's a big selling point for many students, myself included. If you look at the student body at SGU, I would be willing to bet more than half have ties to other countries and are interested in practicing globally. It's a much more heterogenous student body than you will find at probably any US school, whether MD or DO.

 

[Goro]

*sigh*
I was responding to user3's post, which clearly inquired why US citizens who could make it into a DO program instead went to the Caribbean.

Y'know, good reading comprehension is required for doing well on the MCAT, which is why I suspect you're at SGU.

It's an open secret that our students first tried the MD route. The wisest ones applied to DO schools and MD schools at the same time. We do have students who turned down MD schools to come here. And even if they would prefer an MD degree the day they arrived on campus, we quickly bring them over to "this side of the Lord" (as the gospel tune went) and they become fiercely protective and proud of their school and their profession.

This hasn't been my experience at SGU at all and I think you're ignoring one of the Caribbean's biggest strengths: the diversity of its student body. Most US students consider DO, but it's not as trivially easy to switch gears application-wise from MD programs to DO programs as you're making it sound. DO schools do not want students that look at their programs as "USMD backups". They want students that at least pay cursory lip-service to the DO ethos. Furthermore, most DO programs are not super-friendly to international students or non-US students, and at least at SGU approximately 1/3 of the student body are non-US citizens. Finally, I think you're selling Caribbean students short when it comes to global medicine. It's a big selling point for many students, myself included. If you look at the student body at SGU, I would be willing to bet more than half have ties to other countries and are interested in practicing globally. It's a much more heterogenous student body than you will find at probably any US school, whether MD or DO.

 

[jakeislove]

This hasn't been my experience at SGU at all and I think you're ignoring one of the Caribbean's biggest strengths: the diversity of its student body. Most US students consider DO, but it's not as trivially easy to switch gears application-wise from MD programs to DO programs as you're making it sound. DO schools do not want students that look at their programs as "USMD backups". They want students that at least pay cursory lip-service to the DO ethos. Furthermore, most DO programs are not super-friendly to international students or non-US students, and at least at SGU approximately 1/3 of the student body are non-US citizens. Finally, I think you're selling Caribbean students short when it comes to global medicine. It's a big selling point for many students, myself included. If you look at the student body at SGU, I would be willing to bet more than half have ties to other countries and are interested in practicing globally. It's a much more heterogenous student body than you will find at probably any US school, whether MD or DO.

It's been my experience that patients enjoy diversity and meeting someone who lived on their home island or looks like them.

 

[bedevilled ben]

*sigh*
I was responding to user3's post, which clearly inquired why US citizens who could make it into a DO program instead went to the Caribbean.

Y'know, good reading comprehension is required for doing well on the MCAT, which is why I suspect you're at SGU.

It's an open secret that our students first tried the MD route. The wisest ones applied to DO schools and MD schools at the same time. We do have students who turned down MD schools to come here. And even if they would prefer an MD degree the day they arrived on campus, we quickly bring them over to "this side of the Lord" (as the gospel tune went) and they become fiercely protective and proud of their school and their profession.

You pretty clearly made some sweeping generalizations about Caribbean students that could have gone to DO schools and yet went the Caribbean MD route instead. I fall into that category of students and have direct experience with hundreds of others that do, and I'm telling you that your generalizations are wrong. How about instead of attacking my presumed intelligence without knowing a thing about me, you address the points I raise?

 

[Goro]

Good luck in landing a residency.

You pretty clearly made some sweeping generalizations about Caribbean students that could have gone to DO schools and yet went the Caribbean MD route instead. I fall into that category of students and have direct experience with hundreds of others that do, and I'm telling you that your generalizations are wrong. How about instead of attacking my presumed intelligence without knowing a thing about me, you address the points I raise?

 

[bedevilled ben]

Good luck in landing a residency.

I appreciate your obvious heart-felt empathy. Why such petulant animosity? Does my success or lack of it somehow diminish your own? Still waiting for that thoughtful response to my points.

 

[user3]

This hasn't been my experience at SGU at all and I think you're ignoring one of the Caribbean's biggest strengths: the diversity of its student body. Most US students consider DO, but it's not as trivially easy to switch gears application-wise from MD programs to DO programs as you're making it sound. DO schools do not want students that look at their programs as "USMD backups". They want students that at least pay cursory lip-service to the DO ethos. Furthermore, most DO programs are not super-friendly to international students or non-US students, and at least at SGU approximately 1/3 of the student body are non-US citizens. Finally, I think you're selling Caribbean students short when it comes to global medicine. It's a big selling point for many students, myself included. If you look at the student body at SGU, I would be willing to bet more than half have ties to other countries and are interested in practicing globally. It's a much more heterogenous student body than you will find at probably any US school, whether MD or DO.

disagree. the only major difference, typically, is you need to show some understanding of what "osteopathic medicine" is for secondaries and interviews. and have a DO letter at certain schools.

either way, much easier to do this than to enroll, pass classes, pass boards, graduate, and match from SGU.

 

[jakeislove]

disagree. the only major difference, typically, is you need to show some understanding of what "osteopathic medicine" is for secondaries and interviews. and have a DO letter at certain schools.

either way, much easier to do this than to enroll, pass classes, pass boards, graduate, and match from SGU.

What is the Step 1 pass rate of SGU students compared than the DO average? Can't recall.

One good thing about going DO is people get to hear a little about health and the body's natural healing ability.

For someone interested in beginning med school today, DO is safer. That opinion is based on the combining match will take away opportunities from Caribbean grads.

 

[bedevilled ben]

disagree. the only major difference, typically, is you need to show some understanding of what "osteopathic medicine" is for secondaries and interviews. and have a DO letter at certain schools.

either way, much easier to do this than to enroll, pass classes, pass boards, graduate, and match from SGU.

I agree with the latter half of your post, I'm not arguing that DO is the preferred route. If you look at some of my past posts, I make that same point over and over. But going to the Caribbean is not the career death-sentence that so many USMD/DO students make it out to be.

 

[bedevilled ben]

What is the Step 1 pass rate of SGU students compared than the DO average? Can't recall.

One good thing about going DO is people get to hear a little about health and the body's natural healing ability.

For someone interested in beginning med school today, DO is safer. That opinion is based on the combining match will take away opportunities from Caribbean grads.

SGU's first-attempt pass rate for Step 1 was 99% this past year. I'm not sure about the stats for US DO schools.

 

[jakeislove]

SGU's first-attempt pass rate for Step 1 was 99% this past year. I'm not sure about the stats for US DO schools.

That's great but a 200% pass rate wouldn't affect the bias enjoyed by FMG's. If it's a Caribbean school people say "They taught for the test", LOL!

Another one I love is "The CS exam is useless for US grads".

 

[jl lin]

I know a doc that went the SGU route. Mentioned him in the crazy thread about how adcoms feel about URM/AA...

His uncle was a DO. I don't know if his uncle advised him against DO. If so, I can't understand why he would do that. And it's not even like this original doc is in academic medicine or doing big time research--although that is still possible, I believe, with DO, according to people with whom I have spoken. He and his family decided MD looked better. And he ended up eating up a boatload of his parents' money. I mean they were OK with it; but it put some hardship, particularly on the mother and her choices for her career growth.

I have no idea what it's like to live in Grenada, but as beautiful as it is, living there and going to MS would not be like a dual vacation. He graduated quite some time ago--when there was still a fair enough amount of love for getting SGU clerkships after the first 2 years or so, and then getting them residencies. I don't know if he had any aspirations for anything else, but he ended up in FP.

But it's just too risky to try this today--unless SGU's has some nice little connection with more than just a few residency programs. And I'm not adverse to taking risks, so long as they are reasonably well-calculated risks.

This fellow probably could have gone without a lot of unnecessary time, stress, and money--much of which was not his to play with in the first place. But that's his life. I currently hear that he is c/o about his brother, who is running a nice, chain of businesses, and who will be retiring well before he (doc) will. Of course, I don't know how much his brother loves what he does--business. I'm thinking if he is planning on retiring at 50, not necessarily so much--I mean from a heart-felt position.

Who cares DO or MD? Seriously. This is one of THE most ridiculous ongoing things I have ever heard. (Yes, it's unrelated to the OP post.) But a physician is a physician is a physician. Leave the specialty stuff aside.

So, regardless, it seems both bizarre and tragic that this person, who began as an RN no less, didn't consider DO school? Does it say anywhere that he applied to any of them? I didn't read the whole saga. I skimmed--and then felt sickened by his situation at certain points, so . . .

 

[hallowmann]

It's totally possible to match after not paying Step 1 and retaking it. Something like 2% of MD students don't pass each year, and roughly 10% of DO students fail to pass COMLEX 1 on their first attempt, but the vast majority of these students end up matching eventually.

The highest US MD pass rate for step 1 ever was last year at 97% for first time test takers. Usually its around 95%, so many US MDs fail to pass and still do just fine in the match (assuming they eventually pass of course). COMLEX Level 1 first time pass rates, I believe, is closer to the 91-92% range.

They want the MD. reasons for not choosing DO are lack of knowledge about the profession, or parental pressure, or spurious reasons like "DOs can't practice in other countries" [like these kids are going to rush out to practice in Botswana after graduation] or they think DOs only do Family Practice and can't specialize.

To be fair, I seriously considered this before med school. I really actually do see myself practicing in at least one other country. Now, I'm leaning more to the idea of doing it with an aid organization, which makes DO and MD equivalent in terms of that option, so the reason wouldn't have even mattered now.

The other thing that I realized though, that many people don't seem to get, was that a Carib MD is not recognized the way a US MD is recognized. It may be the "same" degree, but licensing organizations in different countries don't necessarily view them the same way. I compared the places I knew DOs could practice in and the places I knew SGU grads could practice in, and I found the lists to be very similar. At that point, it came down to whether the chance of practicing in one of the few countries that recognized the SGU MD degree but not the DO degree was worth the other risks/costs, like double the tuition, being far from my family, the greater attrition, and the lower match rate. Obviously, you all know my choice.

I came to this realization by actually researching each path and really deciding what I wanted and which was the better choice. I took advice from people I knew that took both paths and generally from physicians. This was a $200-$300k commitment I was making, and I was going to know everything about each path before actually stepping foot in med school. That's the way it should be. Too many people rush into this decision, and it costs them.

Also, I'd just like to say, I'm plenty thankful for the sound advice I was given from many docs, med students, people on SDN, and especially the Carib grads at valuemd that pushed me to really look into the DO degree before I even applied to any med schools (at the time I didn't realize how much grade replacement would help my GPAs).

I appreciate your obvious heart-felt empathy. Why such petulant animosity? Does my success or lack of it somehow diminish your own? Still waiting for that thoughtful response to my points.

I think you're exaggerating the "diversity" of the class at SGU a bit. I know plenty of people there and honestly, it seems about the same as most stateside med schools, except for maybe a greater number of south asians (but really its practically the same as my DO school). I mean there's nothing wrong with it being about the same, because after all its targeting US students to graduate and become US physicians, so their backgrounds would overlap significantly and do, which is again why I'm saying I think you're exaggerating the difference.

Anyways, this thread is going a little off track, so I'll stop it here: Regardless of what could have been said in the past, the Caribbean is not as safe of a choice as it was, and you really have to decide whether you want to take the risk given another option (e.g. DO). On top of that, if you do decide to take the risk, you really should be truthful with yourself about your own ability and the track record of the school you choose for having successful graduates.

 

[Mad Jack]

The highest US MD pass rate for step 1 ever was last year at 97% for first time test takers. Usually its around 95%, so many US MDs fail to pass and still do just fine in the match (assuming they eventually pass of course). COMLEX Level 1 first time pass rates, I believe, is closer to the 91-92% range.



To be fair, I seriously considered this before med school. I really actually do see myself practicing in at least one other country. Now, I'm leaning more to the idea of doing it with an aid organization, which makes DO and MD equivalent in terms of that option, so the reason wouldn't have even mattered now.

The other thing that I realized though, that many people don't seem to get, was that a Carib MD is not recognized the way a US MD is recognized. It may be the "same" degree, but licensing organizations in different countries don't necessarily view them the same way. I compared the places I knew DOs could practice in and the places I knew SGU grads could practice in, and I found the lists to be very similar. At that point, it came down to whether the chance of practicing in one of the few countries that recognized the SGU MD degree but not the DO degree was worth the other risks/costs, like double the tuition, being far from my family, the greater attrition, and the lower match rate. Obviously, you all know my choice.

I came to this realization by actually researching each path and really deciding what I wanted and which was the better choice. I took advice from people I knew that took both paths, and plenty of advice from physicians. This was a $200-$300k commitment I was making, and you better believe I was going to know everything about each path before actually stepping foot in med school. That's the way it should be. People should know exactly what they can expect from their decision. Too many people rush into this decision, and it costs them.

Also, I'd just like to say, I'm plenty thankful for the sound advice I was given from many docs, med students, people on SDN, and especially the Carib grads at valuemd that pushed me to really look into the DO degree before I even applied to any med schools (at the time I also thought my chances at DO were bad because I didn't realize how much grad replacement would help my GPAs).



I think you're exaggerating the "diversity" of the class at SGU a bit. I know plenty of people there and honestly, it seems about the same as most stateside med schools, except for maybe a greater number of south asians (but really its practically the same as my DO school). I mean there's nothing wrong with it being about the same, because after all its targeting US students to graduate and become US physicians, so their backgrounds would overlap significantly and do, which is again why I'm saying I think you're exaggerating the difference.

Anyways, this thread is going a little off track, so I'll stop it here: Regardless of what could have been said in the past, the Caribbean is not as safe of a choice as it was, and you really have to decide whether you want to take the risk given another option (e.g. DO). On top of that, if you do decide to take the risk, you really should be truthful with yourself about your own ability and the track record of the school you choose for having successful graduates.

National pass rate on the COMLEX Level 1 last year was 92%, which is an all-time high I'm pretty sure. Historically it's fluctuated between the high 80s and very low 90s. That pass rates are up despite a much greater number of applicants says a lot about the quality of students that are entering DO schools as of late. The same goes for the MD side- 97% is crazy high, and likely a side effect of the increasingly competitive applicants the schools are attracting across the board.

 

[hallowmann]

National pass rate on the COMLEX Level 1 last year was 92%, which is an all-time high I'm pretty sure. Historically it's fluctuated between the high 80s and very low 90s. That pass rates are up despite a much greater number of applicants says a lot about the quality of students that are entering DO schools as of late. The same goes for the MD side- 97% is crazy high, and likely a side effect of the increasingly competitive applicants the schools are attracting across the board.

Yeah, I'm not sure about COMLEX, because the only sources I have are what COMs put on their websites. I can't seem to find any official "first time pass rate" from the NBOME. That said in the past 6 years, its been 90%-92% with one exception of 88% in the 2010-2011 year based on at least 2 COM websites. Its hard to be sure about anything though, because different schools have different numbers and I don't know if they are calculating total pass rates or first time pass rates, or if they just don't have the right numbers.

 

[Goro]

The avg last year was about 93%. There are ~4-5 schools whose rates are closer to 98%, and ~5 whose rates are in the mid 80s (!).

The vast majority of our students who fail COMLEX are people at the very bottom of their class. This is true for ALL medical schools from Harvard to Howard to Albany and ACOM to Western and Yale.

Next year the COMs will be mandated to post their board scores, but I don't know about pass rates.

Yeah, I'm not sure about COMLEX, because the only sources I have are what COMs put on their websites. I can't seem to find any official "first time pass rate" from the NBOME. That said in the past 6 years, its been 90%-92% with one exception of 88% in the 2010-2011 year based on at least 2 COM websites. Its hard to be sure about anything though, because different schools have different numbers and I don't know if they are calculating total pass rates or first time pass rates, or if they just don't have the right numbers.

 

[Skip Intro]

If it's a Caribbean school people say "They taught for the test", LOL!

Yeah, no one cares what "people" say about "them".

Ultimately, the "they" who counts (i.e., program directors interviewing you) only care what your score is and that you passed it on the first try, and only as an indication and reassurance that you will be able to pass your in-service training exams and your board-certification exams. The rest of "whomever-says-what" is just noise and competitive insecurity.

Who cares DO or MD? Seriously. This is one of THE most ridiculous ongoing things I have ever heard. (Yes, it's unrelated to the OP post.) But a physician is a physician is a physician. Leave the specialty stuff aside.

I generally agree with this. But, I can tell you that, even more importantly, once you're out in private practice, the only person who cares if you went to a Caribbean school is that paranoid, nervous patient who Googled you before they came to see you. And, trust me, you probably don't want them as a patient in the first place.

-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

Yeah, no one cares what "people" say about "them".

Ultimately, the "they" who counts (i.e., program directors interviewing you) only care what your score is and that you passed it on the first try, and only as an indication and reassurance that you will be able to pass your in-service training exams and your board-certification exams. The rest of "whomever-says-what" is just noise and competitive insecurity.



I generally agree with this. But, I can tell you that, even more importantly, once you're out in private practice, the only person who cares if you went to a Caribbean school is that paranoid, nervous patient who Googled you before they came to see you. And, trust me, you probably don't want them as a patient in the first place.

-Skip

That being said; I appreciate being exposed to some of the perspectives shared here.

 

[LiveLoveLaughLearn]

I'm gonna direct attention back to original topic as opposed to the same US MD/DO/IMG discussion that comes up in almost every thread.

Although I thank the OP for bringing this person's struggle to light, I'd like to point out that there are many others who were in similar situations and faced similar struggles as the person in the blog but succeed. Here is a blog that I have been following of a non-traditional (previously a PA) medical student who attended a lower tier Caribbean medical school and obtained residency:

http://nontradmd.blogspot.com

I have learned so much from reading his blog and I posted it here in hopes that others will be inspired by him, the way I have. It's not all doom and gloom..there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Skip Intro]

Although I thank the OP for bringing this person's struggle to light, I'd like to point out that there are many others who were in similar situations and faced similar struggles as the person in the blog but succeed.

Clearly.

But, the point of this post was to demonstrate that it is not a decision to be undertaken lightly. That it has cost and time ramifications and you are not guaranteed to succeed.

I read some of the blog you linked. It's not clear that this is really a medical student blog but more of a "life" blog of someone in medical school, which is cool and okay. I couldn't immediately tell where he went to medical school, although it appears that it was St. Eustatius. Also, it's not clear if he is actually done and out practicing medicine independently or what field he's in. (Again, I didn't read his entire blog in detail, and this information might be in there.)

Those are the important points. Namely, you're not really "done" until you've secured an independent license to practice medicine in a state and, I would argue, are board-certified in a specialty. More and more, hospitals, insurers, and employers are requiring board-certification in order to continue, effectively, to practice in a specialty. This requires completion of an ABMS-accredited residency.

A little dose of optimism is nice. But that should always be counterbalanced with pragmatism. As I said in the very first post in this thread, I'm sure every school in the Caribbean, even the ones that are now closed and/or should never have been attended by anyone, can parade their poster children. This doesn't mean it's a representative sample.

Be smart. Choose wisely.

-Skip

 

[tartesos]

I agree with the latter half of your post, I'm not arguing that DO is the preferred route. If you look at some of my past posts, I make that same point over and over. But going to the Caribbean is not the career death-sentence that so many USMD/DO students make it out to be.

It has not been in the past, but I will be for those enrolled recently....
Good luck living on the islands....
You could practice in Trinidad, Nice beaches!!!

 

[Skip Intro]

It has not been in the past, but I will be for those enrolled recently....
Good luck living on the islands....
You could practice in Trinidad, Nice beaches!!!

I hope both of you will keep us informed about where you land in residency. It would be nice to compare. Based on bedevilled ben's posts, I imagine that he's going to do quite well no matter where he ends up. And, I'm willing to wager a large sum of money that it won't be in Trinidad.



-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

I recently spoke with someone returning to Trinidad for training in their British-styled system.

One thing I find odd about the residency discussion is no one ever complains about Canadians returning home after receiving. I do wonder how the combined match will affect them and if Canada will be forced to increase residency positions.

 

[tartesos]

I hope both of you will keep us informed about where you land in residency. It would be nice to compare. Based on bedevilled ben's posts, I imagine that he's going to do quite well no matter where he ends up. And, I'm willing to wager a large sum of money that it won't be in Trinidad.


You guys have no sense of humor.

I am an IMG that has been lucky to have done res/fel already, and for that I'm grateful.

Today, I would not risk doing medicine abroad. Even if it meant waiting another year.

If anyone applying to medical school gets anything from this discussions it should be that in the near future It will be difficult/close to impossible to obtain a residency out of Caribbean medical schools and one should make every effort possible to get into md/do school in USA before even considering going abroad if you want to practice medicine in USA.

 

[Skip Intro]

If anyone applying to medical school gets anything from this discussions it should be that in the near future It will be difficult/close to impossible to obtain a residency out of Caribbean medical schools and one should make every effort possible to get into md/do school in USA before even considering going abroad if you want to practice medicine in USA.

I've discussed this in the past. (One can do a search.) The demographic shift just doesn't argue to this level of concern, and the assumption that there it will be "close to impossible" to obtain a residency via a non-traditional pathway just isn't meted out by current trends in GME.

Furthermore, as I've stated at least a dozen times on this forum, the current increase in the number of U.S. spots is actually good for applicants who otherwise would've been "near misses" to getting into a U.S. medical school - be it M.D. or D.O. This simply was not the case when I applied and went in 2001. This equals good for applicants, bad for Caribbean med programs.

But, the fact of the matter is that almost 25% of the current physician workforce in the U.S. is foreign-trained. Do not expect this number to deviate significantly over the next 20-25 years, because the supply of physicians simply won't be able to keep up with the demand. Unless, that is, mid-level practitioners continue to get expanded practice rights and the overall demand for physician-level care shrinks significantly.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

I am an IMG that has been lucky to have done res/fel already, and for that I'm grateful.

Care to share with us where you went, when you graduated, and what specialty/sub-specialty you trained in? I have freely done this.

-Skip
Ross University, 2005
Board-Certified Anesthesiology

 

[tartesos]

I've discussed this in the past. (One can do a search.) The demographic shift just doesn't argue to this level of concern, and the assumption that there it will be "close to impossible" to obtain a residency via a non-traditional pathway just isn't meted out by current trends in GME.

Furthermore, as I've stated at least a dozen times on this forum, the current increase in the number of U.S. spots is actually good for applicants who otherwise would've been "near misses" to getting into a U.S. medical school - be it M.D. or D.O. This simply was not the case when I applied and went in 2001. This equals good for applicants, bad for Caribbean med programs.

But, the fact of the matter is that almost 25% of the current physician workforce in the U.S. is foreign-trained. Do not expect this number to deviate significantly over the next 20-25 years, because the supply of physicians simply won't be able to keep up with the demand. Unless, that is, mid-level practitioners continue to get expanded practice rights and the overall demand for physician-level care shrinks significantly.

So what will happen when the number of residency spots closely approaches the number of us graduates? and of course Caribbean schools will also keep growing, that will mean a lot of people will be left unmatched.

It's not a nice picture.

 

[tartesos]

Care to share with us where you went, when you graduated, and what specialty/sub-specialty you trained in? I have freely done this.

 

[Skip Intro]

No problem!
Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo( Uasd) , Dominican Republic( I was born there) 2004.
Board certified Infectious Diseases.
2nd year Pulm/Ccm fellow( long story)

Nice! Best of luck to you finishing your Pulm/CCM fellowship. If you want a job when you're done, just let me know. We are desperate to hire a good Pulm/CCM trained person. The ID part is icing on the cake.

-Skip

 

[tartesos]

Nice! Best of luck to you finishing your Pulm/CCM fellowship. If you want a job when you're done, just let me know. We are desperate to hire a good Pulm/CCM trained person. The ID part is icing on the cake.

-Skip

Thanks!

 

[Skip Intro]

So what will happen when the number of residency spots closely approaches the number of us graduates? and of course Caribbean schools will also keep growing, that will mean a lot of people will be left unmatched.

It's not a nice picture.

I don't think the number of Caribbean spots will keep growing. Quite the opposite.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

Here's a link to Caribbean Med Student's blog that lists a TON of blogs of students from different schools. This is excellent. Read-up.

http://www.caribbeanmedstudent.com/other-blogs/

His blog itself is also excellent, by the way, full of very thorough and up-to-date information.

-Skip

 

[W19]

That's great but a 200% pass rate wouldn't affect the bias enjoyed by FMG's. If it's a Caribbean school people say "They taught for the test", LOL!

Another one I love is "The CS exam is useless for US grads".

Why is it useless for US grad? Some US grad are ESL if that was what you were alluding to...

 

[jakeislove]

Why is it useless for US grad? Some US grad are ESL if that was what you were alluding to...

No one has adequately explained the opinion, LOL! It's just something I occasionally see posted. Some IMGs are American born.

My best guess? Some feel its (CS) sole purpose is to eliminate people with poor Engrish and is a waste of time/money for those with standardized educations.