NP lies

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So my questions is what are the nurses doing that increases satisfaction -
.

the answer is patient volume. Nurses that see patient often see half or even less of what a Primary care Physician sees during one day, therefore more time to spend with each patient. Instead of having 20-25 minutes per pt this nurses have at least 30-45 minutes with each patient. Believe me that makes a huge difference.

When I was a first year resident I had 35 minutes to each patient on my outpatient clinic, now as a second year I only have 20-25 minutes. And I have had to adapt to this and be more in control of the appointment and only address 1-2 issues per visit instead of 3-4 issues in chronic sick patient.

Is not that nurses are better at conducting interviews, do physical and address problems and treat them, because they are not. WE went to school for that. The thing is more time, and even if they were saying the samething over and over again in those 35-40 minutes pt would be happy because at the end the only thing that would stand out was "WOW, they spend 35-40 minutes with me, they really care"

Give nurses the same amount of patients a PCP see's in one day and you are going to see very different results in this studies. I guarantee it!!
 
Even simply putting a hand on the patients shoulder improved the patients feelings of satisfaction.
.
get sued for sexual harassment like that if you put your hands on the shoulders of the wrong patient
 
the answer is patient volume. Nurses that see patient often see half or even less of what a Primary care Physician sees during one day, therefore more time to spend with each patient. Instead of having 20-25 minutes per pt this nurses have at least 30-45 minutes with each patient. Believe me that makes a huge difference.

When I was a first year resident I had 35 minutes to each patient on my outpatient clinic, now as a second year I only have 20-25 minutes. And I have had to adapt to this and be more in control of the appointment and only address 1-2 issues per visit instead of 3-4 issues in chronic sick patient.

Is not that nurses are better at conducting interviews, do physical and address problems and treat them, because they are not. WE went to school for that. The thing is more time, and even if they were saying the samething over and over again in those 35-40 minutes pt would be happy because at the end the only thing that would stand out was "WOW, they spend 35-40 minutes with me, they really care"

Give nurses the same amount of patients a PCP see's in one day and you are going to see very different results in this studies. I guarantee it!!

That may be part of it, but a chiropractor (Dr.Al Reach of Reach Chiropractic) I met in and around 1989 had tremendous customer satisfaction. He had a formula based on some scientology principles - I am not a scientologist at all, but they used certain "control" techniques from Scientology (such as the ARC triangle, checking "indicators" and entering one emotional tone above the patient etc) - I learned a tremendous amount from this guy in 4 or 5 brief conversations about dealing with people. He taught his management/control techniques, really you could say borderline brainwashing techniques to other chiropractors he hired and placed in his 8 offices. They were all trained to do things EXACTLY the same : the control techniques I mentioned above he gleaned from scientology , the way they adjusted patients, down to even the type of ballpoint pen they used. Each doctor saw 200-300 (and sometimes more) patients a day. This was in the late 1980's when insurance companies demanded very little from chiropractors, once insurance companies demanded better documentation in the late-1990's their numbers went down.

But anyway, the time drain of documentation aside - all his robot like doctors saw 200+ patients a day, and the patients loved them. They literally spent 1 to 2 minutes with a patient and in that time established this eerie rapport, embraced the patient figuratively on several levels , brought the patient up one or two emotional tone levels (making them feel better emotionally), and the actual physical treatment was almost an afterthought. I literally heard a patient say something like "You know in the 20 minutes the doctor spends with me..." - and I remember thinking "20 minutes ?!?!?! more like 2 minutes" But it seemed longer since this weird intimacy was established.

If I role played what an adjustment was like you would get a quick idea of what I mean, its hard to convey in writing. But the doctor would enter the room and check the patients emotional tone (by the look of their face especially the eyes, and the tone of their voice - its really a weird "science" of Scientologists - I do believe many of them can nail your emotional state accurately in seconds with practice), adopt an emotional state one level or so above them (you don't want to be too emotionally above them - when someone is in emotional "death" it is terrible for you to be in the tone of "exhuberance", its too much of an emotional dissonance - its like Hey look on the bright side and whistle a happy tune when they are emotionally dead - not good) and then within a few minutes they would raise the patients emotional tone by mirroring and matching bringing the patients emotional tone up, all while establishing "common ground" strengthening the "R" ( reality) and "C" (communication) of the ARC triangle - and anytime you strengthen one side of the ARC triangle you necessarily strengthen the others - in this case the "A" (affinity).

The emotional tone is set up and raised through mostly non-verbal methods such as facial expressions and posture - but also tone of voice (emotionally "dead" people have a very monotone voice compared with "angst" or "exhuberance" or "anger" etc - you may think Tom Cruise etc are nuts and to an extent they are, but there is some whacky control techniques that really do work that is taught outside of the religious beliefs of scientology - and I do think they are spot on with how the voice conveys and influences emotional tone). Rapport was set up largely with common ground conversation - very simple really - if they are Miami Heat sports fans and so are you, this is an area of common ground.

I classify all this under the title of SCHMOOZING. And someone who is really trained in scientology can sell ice to eskimos.

These guys use to see hundreds of patients a day - each doctor would. They were billing $70 a pop to insurance in the late 80's before insurance wised up, and used a "cooperative fee structure" for patients without insurance. They did not physical therapy or exercise prescriptions just "above down/ inside out" chiropractic - and patients loved them

So while you may be right - on the other hand, I have seen the simple power of schmoozing when it comes to establishing patient rapport and obtaining satisfaction - and if someone is a good schmoozer it can be done in seconds, and if you are a bad schmoozer you can't do it in hours.

Althought I think all of the mind control things the high level scientologists (such as Dr.Al Reach) did work - in my own practice the only thing I used from him is establishing common ground. I did that the first visit. Other than that I just tried to demonstrate a higher level of service than my competitors - including alot of touchy feeley crap like calling each and every new patient just to ask how they were doing (not a control techique, just letting them think I care). Pretty much all new patients were feeling about the sameafter the first visit - but the vast majority commented to me that they had NEVER had a doctor call them before to check on them. That one thing alone I think established a strong first impression of me as a caring doctor - appearances are everything and you do not have a second chance to establish a first impression. I never left for home in the evening until I had reached every new patient.

So you might be right - but it is an assumption, I want to go read the entire study and see if there is something to glean from the way the nurses do things that makes a patient more satisfied.

If I am convinced of anything in private practice healthcare its the importance financially of patient satisfaction - including the fact that if patients like you they won't sue you when you do something wrong like break their ribs adjusting them. I know that for a fact (Oh thats ok dear, you didn't mean to do it).

You might be right but this is certainly something worthy of real study and not assumption. Satisfaction is sometimes related to rapport, and rapport is a science one can learn quickly and perform in seconds
 
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get sued for sexual harassment like that if you put your hands on the shoulders of the wrong patient

If they don't like you, but if they don't like you they will get you for something else if its not that
 
I will look for it but a similar study was done (maybe in the peer reviewed JMPT) regarding the treatment of musculoskeletal injuries by MD's and DC's (chiropractors). Patients reported greater satisfaction with the DC's. One of the reasons was determined to be simply being touched. Patients liked to be touched - where as many times an MD came in and performed an H&P and wrote a prescription with minimal or no contact. Even simply putting a hand on the patients shoulder improved the patients feelings of satisfaction.

This is so true. Patients feel like the DC has really done something for them when they leave the office. Call it placebo affect or whatever, but people pay out of pocket for this treatment.
 
get sued for sexual harassment like that if you put your hands on the shoulders of the wrong patient

Hmmm I thought it was because instead of putting "Doowai, Chiropractor" on my business cards I put:

" My name is Doo Wai, come to my office and I will feel you up for a while and then pop a bone".
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

Way to generalize 🙄
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

and you are pre-medical!! I see a nice future for you in medicine. sarcasm off.
 
and you are pre-medical!! I see a nice future for you in medicine. sarcasm off.

Agreed. Waaaay too early in the game for him to be jaded. 👎
 
That may be part of it, but a chiropractor (Dr.Al Reach of Reach Chiropractic) I met in and around 1989 had tremendous customer satisfaction. He had a formula based on some scientology principles - I am not a scientologist at all, but they used certain "control" techniques from Scientology (such as the ARC triangle, checking "indicators" and entering one emotional tone above the patient etc) - I learned a tremendous amount from this guy in 4 or 5 brief conversations about dealing with people. He taught his management/control techniques, really you could say borderline brainwashing techniques to other chiropractors he hired and placed in his 8 offices. They were all trained to do things EXACTLY the same : the control techniques I mentioned above he gleaned from scientology , the way they adjusted patients, down to even the type of ballpoint pen they used. Each doctor saw 200-300 (and sometimes more) patients a day. This was in the late 1980's when insurance companies demanded very little from chiropractors, once insurance companies demanded better documentation in the late-1990's their numbers went down.

But anyway, the time drain of documentation aside - all his robot like doctors saw 200+ patients a day, and the patients loved them. They literally spent 1 to 2 minutes with a patient and in that time established this eerie rapport, embraced the patient figuratively on several levels , brought the patient up one or two emotional tone levels (making them feel better emotionally), and the actual physical treatment was almost an afterthought. I literally heard a patient say something like "You know in the 20 minutes the doctor spends with me..." - and I remember thinking "20 minutes ?!?!?! more like 2 minutes" But it seemed longer since this weird intimacy was established.

If I role played what an adjustment was like you would get a quick idea of what I mean, its hard to convey in writing. But the doctor would enter the room and check the patients emotional tone (by the look of their face especially the eyes, and the tone of their voice - its really a weird "science" of Scientologists - I do believe many of them can nail your emotional state accurately in seconds with practice), adopt an emotional state one level or so above them (you don't want to be too emotionally above them - when someone is in emotional "death" it is terrible for you to be in the tone of "exhuberance", its too much of an emotional dissonance - its like Hey look on the bright side and whistle a happy tune when they are emotionally dead - not good) and then within a few minutes they would raise the patients emotional tone by mirroring and matching bringing the patients emotional tone up, all while establishing "common ground" strengthening the "R" ( reality) and "C" (communication) of the ARC triangle - and anytime you strengthen one side of the ARC triangle you necessarily strengthen the others - in this case the "A" (affinity).

The emotional tone is set up and raised through mostly non-verbal methods such as facial expressions and posture - but also tone of voice (emotionally "dead" people have a very monotone voice compared with "angst" or "exhuberance" or "anger" etc - you may think Tom Cruise etc are nuts and to an extent they are, but there is some whacky control techniques that really do work that is taught outside of the religious beliefs of scientology - and I do think they are spot on with how the voice conveys and influences emotional tone). Rapport was set up largely with common ground conversation - very simple really - if they are Miami Heat sports fans and so are you, this is an area of common ground.

I classify all this under the title of SCHMOOZING. And someone who is really trained in scientology can sell ice to eskimos.

These guys use to see hundreds of patients a day - each doctor would. They were billing $70 a pop to insurance in the late 80's before insurance wised up, and used a "cooperative fee structure" for patients without insurance. They did not physical therapy or exercise prescriptions just "above down/ inside out" chiropractic - and patients loved them

So while you may be right - on the other hand, I have seen the simple power of schmoozing when it comes to establishing patient rapport and obtaining satisfaction - and if someone is a good schmoozer it can be done in seconds, and if you are a bad schmoozer you can't do it in hours.

Althought I think all of the mind control things the high level scientologists (such as Dr.Al Reach) did work - in my own practice the only thing I used from him is establishing common ground. I did that the first visit. Other than that I just tried to demonstrate a higher level of service than my competitors - including alot of touchy feeley crap like calling each and every new patient just to ask how they were doing (not a control techique, just letting them think I care). Pretty much all new patients were feeling about the sameafter the first visit - but the vast majority commented to me that they had NEVER had a doctor call them before to check on them. That one thing alone I think established a strong first impression of me as a caring doctor - appearances are everything and you do not have a second chance to establish a first impression. I never left for home in the evening until I had reached every new patient.

So you might be right - but it is an assumption, I want to go read the entire study and see if there is something to glean from the way the nurses do things that makes a patient more satisfied.

If I am convinced of anything in private practice healthcare its the importance financially of patient satisfaction - including the fact that if patients like you they won't sue you when you do something wrong like break their ribs adjusting them. I know that for a fact (Oh thats ok dear, you didn't mean to do it).

You might be right but this is certainly something worthy of real study and not assumption. Satisfaction is sometimes related to rapport, and rapport is a science one can learn quickly and perform in seconds


fascinating stuff.. truly..
 
Actually, in Canada you need a 4 year degree, just like the US and it is still a bachelor's of medicine.

Also, in European countries, it is not straight from high school but rather 6 years after high school for a medical degree.

India, I have no idea.

Nice try, though.😀

India follows the same British System. 6 years of medical school after high school (not neccesarily though because not everyone can get through right after high school). Many go to med school after a bachelor's in a science field or taking a year off to prepare for the competitive entrance test.
 
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Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients.

:laugh: I guess you would rather have someone who speaks nicely to you versus someone who actually knows what they're doing. I agree that some MD's need better bedside manners or English speakers, but you can find the same issues with NP's and PA's. If you went to a hospital that wasn't in the ghetto, you would find physicians who both had excellent bedside manners and could speak English fluently.
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

Yeah, me too.

So what if they perf me during a colonoscopy? So long as they're nice about it.

🙄
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

So when a pt is intubated and sedated or a code is been run do you think pt really care how good of an english does the doctor speaks????

you cannot be serious.
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

You can't be serious. Yeah, that NP couldn't diagnose my colon cancer and now I only have 3 months to live, but damn! she made me feel all warm and fuzzy!!
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

Actually, it's not that much about who speaks the language better, it more about that Nps will just give out whatever pts want/demand especially benzo, narcs, sick leave letters..etc.That's why pts ( esp the malingering /drug seeking type)prefers Nps since they don't know much .
 
Actually, it's not that much about who speaks the language better, it more about that Nps will just give out whatever pts want/demand especially benzo, narcs, sick leave letters..etc.That's why pts ( esp the malingering /drug seeking type)prefers Nps since they don't know much .

on point
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

selection criteria = "Most patients I know"

this may be a true statement but is statistically irrelevant because your sample size is too small to decrease the error.

Sorry
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.


How important is small talk anyway? I realize no one wants a jerk but should "small talk" really be a measure in the quality of your care?

I've seen nurses on power trips that were just as rude. I think you'll find people like this in any profession.
 
Most patients I know prefer NPs to MDs. FMG-MDs are horrible at conversing with patients. At least under-trained NPs speak English and can make small talk.

So what? Patients are idiots, and so are you for thinking that a patient knows what kind of medical care is best for them. That is why we have doctors... because not everyone can go to medical school.

Thank God the np is there to small-talk the patient as there condition worsens because they know nothing about medicine. They are EXCELLENT at caring and comforting, but not curing. Personally, 10 times out of 10 i'd prefer a doctor who cursed and threw things at me as he accurately diagnosed and treated me to the NP who was charming and polite as she helplessly watched me die.

Your "random sampling" of patients will soon be extinct as Darwin reemerges...
 
Another big reason why NPs can look good is that they have more time to spend with the patient, especially if they are serving as phyisican extenders.

Due to the realities of Medicare, primary care docs are forced to make their patient visits as short as possible.

On the other hand, if NPs really did become fully independent and billed Medicare directly, they would get to enjoy this delightful reality themselves and be forced to pack 'em in too... and there goes their customer service scores. (although they will still probably get a bonus on their press-ganey for passing out narcs and abx to anyone who asks)
 
Another big reason why NPs can look good is that they have more time to spend with the patient, especially if they are serving as phyisican extenders.

The other day on a local radio show, the talk show host was whining about how the evil doctor didn't spend enough time with her when she went to the hospital to give birth but the nursing staff were great because they did. Of course, the fact that she got her healthy baby delivered without complications just wasn't good enough.
 
The other day on a local radio show, the talk show host was whining about how the evil doctor didn't spend enough time with her when she went to the hospital to give birth but the nursing staff were great because they did. Of course, the fact that she got her healthy baby delivered without complications just wasn't good enough.

There is a practical way to test if Np can practice medicine independently or work like a physician is when those Nps are sick , severly sick on the verge of dying, they should seek hel/treatment only from NPs instead of doctors.That way, they can prove they can substitute all docs. And those lawmakers who pass/support the legislations for Nps or PAs to practice medicine independently, should only allow to seek treatment from Nps/PAs when they get sick or needs surgeries .Just forget about all these BS quasi usmle tests, they are all nonsense. I believe this will save lots of hassle for everybody.
 
So what? Patients are idiots, and so are you for thinking that a patient knows what kind of medical care is best for them. That is why we have doctors... because not everyone can go to medical school.

Thank God the np is there to small-talk the patient as there condition worsens because they know nothing about medicine. They are EXCELLENT at caring and comforting, but not curing. Personally, 10 times out of 10 i'd prefer a doctor who cursed and threw things at me as he accurately diagnosed and treated me to the NP who was charming and polite as she helplessly watched me die.

Your "random sampling" of patients will soon be extinct as Darwin reemerges...

This is something you should think about. You might cure but can you heal?
 
There is a practical way to test if Np can practice medicine independently or work like a physician is when those Nps are sick , severly sick on the verge of dying, they should seek hel/treatment only from NPs instead of doctors.That way, they can prove they can substitute all docs. And those lawmakers who pass/support the legislations for Nps or PAs to practice medicine independently, should only allow to seek treatment from Nps/PAs when they get sick or needs surgeries .Just forget about all these BS quasi usmle tests, they are all nonsense. I believe this will save lots of hassle for everybody.

A few weeks ago an attending sent out his NP to take care of the patient in the ICU, so I guess it was the attending's choice not to come in.
 
A few weeks ago an attending sent out his NP to take care of the patient in the ICU, so I guess it was the attending's choice not to come in.

There is difference when Np is under the supervision of a MD, if the attending is sending out the NP to care for a patient , then he/she should know the NP will be able to handle the task which may not need any extensive medical knowledge or the NP may need to report to the attending the condition of the pt. In this case, the Np is not practicing medicine independently.
 
There is difference when Np is under the supervision of a MD, if the attending is sending out the NP to care for a patient , then he/she should know the NP will be able to handle the task which may not need any extensive medical knowledge or the NP may need to report to the attending the condition of the pt. In this case, the Np is not practicing medicine independently.

I'm getting differing opinions all around I guess...

So D/NP's are fine to work as long as they don't work independently correct? If they're employed by the hospital... then it would make the hospital liable if there's any problem.

The real crux of the problem is when they try to work independently... if it's in real rural area then that would be fine too?
 
I'm getting differing opinions all around I guess...

So D/NP's are fine to work as long as they don't work independently correct? If they're employed by the hospital... then it would make the hospital liable if there's any problem.

The real crux of the problem is when they try to work independently... if it's in real rural area then that would be fine too?

well, it'll never be fine if Np or DNP work independently even in rural areas.It's because they're not equipped/trained to work independently. They should not use the excuse (the shortage of MDs) to endanger the public health. They ( DNP)should take care of their own nurses shortage before they expand their so called responsibility.They're just like quacks killing ppl everyday.
 
As for PAs, how come they are not a threat?

Because we are NOT striving to be independent practitioners. The PA role is designed to compliment physician practice, not compete against it. Every PA practicing medicine must have a physician supervisor. Since we fall under the BOM we will always have that leash on us. We can practice medicine autonomously but never independently. That is why Taurus advocates hiring PAs instead of NPs.

Hey, we're your friends... 👍
 
Now, I'm no great defender of NP's, but:

The fact that you all say you would rather have an arrogant a-hole with no social skills for a doctor so long as s/he "knows her/his stuff", and assume that the general populace feels like you do, tells me that none of you have asked your layperson friends/family members/patients what they want in a doctor.

Patients don't know whether a doctor is good or not; they only know whether a doctor made them feel respected, cared-for, and valued. If NP's do this better than many MD's, good for them; they may not be treating their patients more successfully, but they are going to be more liked by their patients and have more therapeutic relationships.

The advantage MD's have over NP's is that they could offer both the therapeutic relationship as well as the scientific/knowledge/skills advantage of more training. The sad thing is, doctors used to value the therapeutic relationship; nowadays, most have been seduced by technology and EBM into believing that only empirical rigor is worthwhile and that interpersonal relationships have nothing to do with healthcare, and so the attitude on display in this thread becomes the norm. Patients miss the therapeutic aspect of the doctor-patient relationship, and since doctors don't care anymore, patients seek it in NP's and others who still value it. So many of you on this thread completely disparage the therapeutic relationship in favor of impersonal technical "skills" or "knowledge", e.g.:

You can't be serious. Yeah, that NP couldn't diagnose my colon cancer and now I only have 3 months to live, but damn! she made me feel all warm and fuzzy!!
So what if they perf me during a colonoscopy? So long as they're nice about it.
How important is small talk anyway? I realize no one wants a jerk but should "small talk" really be a measure in the quality of your care?
Personally, 10 times out of 10 i'd prefer a doctor who cursed and threw things at me as he accurately diagnosed and treated me to the NP who was charming and polite as she helplessly watched me die.

Your "random sampling" of patients will soon be extinct as Darwin reemerges...
The other day on a local radio show, the talk show host was whining about how the evil doctor didn't spend enough time with her when she went to the hospital to give birth but the nursing staff were great because they did. Of course, the fact that she got her healthy baby delivered without complications just wasn't good enough.

This is a perfect demonstration of why NP's are having such an easy time siphoning patients away from MD's who don't respect them. The insensitivity to what patients want from their doctor is exactly why patients would rather see an NP.

Zenman nailed it:
This is something you should think about. You might cure but can you heal?

If you say "I can cure, healing is for nurses", you are what's wrong with the medical profession today.
 
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Now, I'm no great defender of NP's, but:

The fact that you all say you would rather have an arrogant a-hole with no social skills for a doctor so long as s/he "knows her/his stuff", and assume that the general populace feels like you do, tells me that none of you have asked your layperson friends/family members/patients what they want in a doctor.

Patients don't know whether a doctor is good or not; they only know whether a doctor made them feel respected, cared-for, and valued. If NP's do this better than many MD's, good for them; they may not be treating their patients more successfully, but they are going to be more liked by their patients and have more therapeutic relationships.

The advantage MD's have over NP's is that they could offer both the therapeutic relationship as well as the scientific/knowledge/skills advantage of more training. The sad thing is, doctors used to value the therapeutic relationship; nowadays, most have been seduced by technology and EBM into believing that only empirical rigor is worthwhile and that interpersonal relationships have nothing to do with healthcare, and so the attitude on display in this thread becomes the norm. Patients miss the therapeutic aspect of the doctor-patient relationship, and since doctors don't care anymore, patients seek it in NP's and others who still value it. So many of you on this thread completely disparage the therapeutic relationship in favor of impersonal technical "skills" or "knowledge", e.g.:







This is a perfect demonstration of why NP's are having such an easy time siphoning patients away from MD's who don't respect them. The insensitivity to what patients want from their doctor is exactly why patients would rather see an NP.

Zenman nailed it:


If you say "I can cure, healing is for nurses", you are what's wrong with the medical profession today.


i think you are right. Doctors should start listening to their patients, non verbal communication is key. Nodding your head once in a while . thast all patients need. BUt the problem is. WHen yo are seeing a whole bunch of patients in a day you dont have time for that.
 
i think you are right. Doctors should start listening to their patients, non verbal communication is key. Nodding your head once in a while . thast all patients need. BUt the problem is. WHen yo are seeing a whole bunch of patients in a day you dont have time for that.

I agree with that. But just accepting that seeing 40-60+ patients a day (depending on the specialty) is the way things has to be is part of the problem. Compensation systems will have to change, and MD's may have to be willing to accept lower incomes. Of course, you can choose not to, but in the end that's the attitude (i.e., income-obsessed, specialist-driven, procedure-focused) that is allowing NP's to usurp doctors' traditional roles.

I think the short version of the answer to this problem is: specialists get paid less, PCP's get paid more. Fewer people will go into over-served specialties in over-served areas (e.g., do we need another dermatologist in L.A./NYC/Dallas/etc.?) and instead there will be less financial disincentive to be a hometown PCP or general surgeon in a mid-sized city (to cite but two examples of highly-needed roles going unfilled because students with $250k+ debt don't want to make $150k per year when they could make literally 6x that much as a back surgeon). With a more rational supply of doctors in fields with acute shortages, MD's could actually spend a thoughtful amount of time with each patient (let's say, 30 minutes instead of the 10 minutes most PCP's I've worked with spend with their patients) and still make a reasonable income. When MD's start taking those jobs because they actually like them and not just because higher-paying specialties rejected them, NP's will have a much weaker argument for their agenda. But the first step is bringing the pay of specialists and generalists more in line with each other.
 
Now, I'm no great defender of NP's, but:

The fact that you all say you would rather have an arrogant a-hole with no social skills for a doctor so long as s/he "knows her/his stuff", and assume that the general populace feels like you do, tells me that none of you have asked your layperson friends/family members/patients what they want in a doctor.

Patients don't know whether a doctor is good or not; they only know whether a doctor made them feel respected, cared-for, and valued. If NP's do this better than many MD's, good for them; they may not be treating their patients more successfully, but they are going to be more liked by their patients and have more therapeutic relationships.

The advantage MD's have over NP's is that they could offer both the therapeutic relationship as well as the scientific/knowledge/skills advantage of more training. The sad thing is, doctors used to value the therapeutic relationship; nowadays, most have been seduced by technology and EBM into believing that only empirical rigor is worthwhile and that interpersonal relationships have nothing to do with healthcare, and so the attitude on display in this thread becomes the norm. Patients miss the therapeutic aspect of the doctor-patient relationship, and since doctors don't care anymore, patients seek it in NP's and others who still value it. So many of you on this thread completely disparage the therapeutic relationship in favor of impersonal technical "skills" or "knowledge", e.g.:







This is a perfect demonstration of why NP's are having such an easy time siphoning patients away from MD's who don't respect them. The insensitivity to what patients want from their doctor is exactly why patients would rather see an NP.

Zenman nailed it:


If you say "I can cure, healing is for nurses", you are what's wrong with the medical profession today.

I completely agree with this, and coming from a med student, frankly, I'm impressed. I am a big advocate of PAs, and NPs. But I do feel they should work under an MD because they do not do residency.

What I don't understand is why will DNPs possibly be allowed to practice independently when states such as CA, NM, and KS don't even honor MDs from certain Carib schools 😱 And those of you with harsh thoughts against Carib students, I don't want to hear it. Tell me how is it logical to allow DNPs to practice independently even in primary care, when some Carib schools will never get licensed in CA and such (even as PCP). How is that so when our students have completed an ACGME residency, possibly ACGME fellowship, and be board certified in their specialty. I just don't get it.
 
What I don't understand is why will DNPs possibly be allowed to practice independently when states such as CA, NM, and KS don't even honor MDs from certain Carib schools 😱 And those of you with harsh thoughts against Carib students, I don't want to hear it. Tell me how is it logical to allow DNPs to practice independently even in primary care, when some Carib schools will never get licensed in CA and such (even as PCP). How is that so when our students have completed an ACGME residency, possibly ACGME fellowship, and be board certified in their specialty. I just don't get it.

It's because the nurses are a formidable lobbying force. What they can't achieve through education they get it by lobbying.
 
So I was checking out http://www.wilderness-medicine.com/ for fun. And I also checked the faculty page... I saw someone being FNP/PA...

A little more digging shows that this combined FNP/PA program combined degree is done by UC Davis.

Just thought that was interesting.
There used to be two. The Davis program and the Stanford program. They were both established as primary care PA programs. The Stanford program discontinued due to not being able to offer an MSN degree which is needed to get reimbursement. The Davis NPs get their MSN through UC Sacramento if I recall.

Back in the early 70's the FNP programs were very similar to the UC Davis PA program requirements. The programs have evolved differently over time. In addition FNPs were allowed to take the PA certification exam for the first few years since there was no FNP certification exam (an no NP practice act in several states).

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
One of our NPs is HATED by the patients, and he is just an ******* - he even admits it. However, since he is midlevel, he doesn't get Press Ganey surveys, and the only patients he sees that I have to see are those with Medicare. As such, the trickle down is like this: he sees them --> my name goes on the chart just on the computer --> they ****in' hate him --> I get the ****ty PG. And PG says that that is cast in stone, and can't be changed.
 
One of our NPs is HATED by the patients, and he is just an ******* - he even admits it. However, since he is midlevel, he doesn't get Press Ganey surveys, and the only patients he sees that I have to see are those with Medicare. As such, the trickle down is like this: he sees them --> my name goes on the chart just on the computer --> they ****in' hate him --> I get the ****ty PG. And PG says that that is cast in stone, and can't be changed.

Why does he still have a job? Is he employed by your group, or is he a hospital employee?
 
There is a practical way to test if Np can practice medicine independently or work like a physician is when those Nps are sick , severly sick on the verge of dying, they should seek hel/treatment only from NPs instead of doctors.That way, they can prove they can substitute all docs. And those lawmakers who pass/support the legislations for Nps or PAs to practice medicine independently, should only allow to seek treatment from Nps/PAs when they get sick or needs surgeries .Just forget about all these BS quasi usmle tests, they are all nonsense. I believe this will save lots of hassle for everybody.

I think this would take care of it. It is easy to talk about how a physician's training is unnecessary until one is in need of it.
 
This is ridiculous. I can't tell you a time I have ever been mean to a patient... You all are taking this way out of context.

The thing is, it is VERY EASY to be friendly and liked by a patient. Especially as their physician. Patients give us a much easier ticket to punch than any other in the field. They know we are busy. And 99% of physicians are NOT mean or nasty to their patients. What kinda sick hospitals do you guys work at?

The curing is the separator. People come to hospitals to be fixed. Or at least put back together again best they can. A part of this is the "healing" thing you allude to. But this is only a small part, and it is not even the problem.

Don't say this is why the DNP autonomy thing came about. It is just not that simple.

And yes, I do agree there is more to being a great provider than just pushing pills and encouraging diet and exercise. But in REALITY (which SDN doesn't seem to participate in) the world is much more complicated. With the explosion of new drugs, techniques, equipment (this well never runs dry), only a physician scientist has the background to make an educated decision. And even then, our track record sucks. But if you ask a group of DNPs to evaluate a new drug and the studies that are on it, they don't know the system, the uncertainties, the methods, the effects, the clinical uses... they are going to blindly believe the sales rep and push the pill. (see thalidomide, vioxx, celebrex, loratadine for how that works out.)

Medicine is an education FIRST. Stop downgrading that. Holding hands and chatting with a patient is a good thing too. But don't compare apples to oranges.
 
If you went to a hospital that wasn't in the ghetto, you would find physicians who both had excellent bedside manners and could speak English fluently.

Ehh maybe I am reading this wrong but are you saying that hospitals located in the ghetto doesn't have physicians with excellent bedside manner and that they are also unable to speak english fluently??

I just want to point out to you that Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland, is located in the Baltimore ghetto and it is one of the most renowned hospitals in the US.

As I said before, maybe I was just reading your statement wrong and if I did then I apologize, but that comment just comes off as ignorant and I really hope that you aren't as ignorant or prejudiced as your comment makes you out to be.

We should accept and respect all people, no matter who they are or where they live and work.

Just my two cents.
 
This is ridiculous. I can't tell you a time I have ever been mean to a patient... You all are taking this way out of context.

The thing is, it is VERY EASY to be friendly and liked by a patient. Especially as their physician. Patients give us a much easier ticket to punch than any other in the field. They know we are busy. And 99% of physicians are NOT mean or nasty to their patients. What kinda sick hospitals do you guys work at?

The curing is the separator. People come to hospitals to be fixed. Or at least put back together again best they can. A part of this is the "healing" thing you allude to. But this is only a small part, and it is not even the problem.

Don't say this is why the DNP autonomy thing came about. It is just not that simple.

And yes, I do agree there is more to being a great provider than just pushing pills and encouraging diet and exercise. But in REALITY (which SDN doesn't seem to participate in) the world is much more complicated. With the explosion of new drugs, techniques, equipment (this well never runs dry), only a physician scientist has the background to make an educated decision. And even then, our track record sucks. But if you ask a group of DNPs to evaluate a new drug and the studies that are on it, they don't know the system, the uncertainties, the methods, the effects, the clinical uses... they are going to blindly believe the sales rep and push the pill. (see thalidomide, vioxx, celebrex, loratadine for how that works out.)

Medicine is an education FIRST. Stop downgrading that. Holding hands and chatting with a patient is a good thing too. But don't compare apples to oranges.

The last paragraph is the most important. I am training in a rural area of the country where basically independent NPs are already "filling the gap". Thank goodness the ones out here know their limits and when to call for help and will honestly admit they don't have the basic science background to attempt managing the more complex cases. I even rotated for a few weeks with one who was managing a clinic across the street from her supervising physician. Concrete example, we had a 20 year old male having episodes of palpitations, diaphoresis and near-syncope. Exam, EKG and basic labs were all normal and he returned for a follow-up still having the "episodes" about 1-2 a week and wanting a diagnosis. I asked if he had considered a pheo and I got a look like "What?". I realize programs differ across the country but when I explained to her about what a pheochromocytoma was and how to test for it he said he had never heard of it/covered it in school. I was amazed and it gave me some perspective. I realized why I am going through what I thought was all of this basic science nonsense about adrenergic receptors and biochem and everything, its so I can understand all the details and the big picture. 24 hour urine he knew, when it cames to VMA and metanephrines, clueless.

I was a paramedic, and you can teach cookbook medicine to anyone. I could still run a code or a trauma as good/better than most docs who don't do it on a regular basis. A+B=C and if that doesn't work, try D. Given enough time, nurses can do most of the non-surgical procedures we do and some of them they can/could do better. However, at the end of the day, we went through all this BS (basic science or bull#@$, whichever you prefer) so we can understand all the details of patient care and the science behind the body and its' derangements. Nothing can substitute this. If they want to be called doctor, let them apply to medical school. I had a great time working in the street, but I went to medical school because at the end of the day, I wanted to be the guy in charge who understood everything. I thought that codes were easy to run and they are, but to understand that basic physiology and reasoning behind the WHY we are giving drugs can help me save that patient/make that diagnosis that the cookbook paramedic, RN, DNP, PA or whatever will miss.

Just one guys humble opinion.
 
Instead of making "nurses more like doctors" ... let's make "doctors more like nurses." (After all, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em).

Step 1.

All physicians in Canada and the US will take a weekend course so that we can learn "the lore of nursing" and tack it onto our knowledge base. We could call the new credential, "NDP" ... Nursing of Doctor Practice (or something like that). People who don't want to do a weekend course, can do a 60 minute on-line module, complete with a rigorous 10 question multiple choice exam (60 % required to pass).

Step 2.

Increase residency spots by 100 % (fill them all with IMG's, if necessary).

(this step is important to help with the implementation of step 3, below)

Step 3.

Fire all nurses, everywhere. Just tell them "Sorry, but your services are no longer needed."

Step 4.

Hire a bunch of PSW's / porters, etc. If there aren't enough of these, any warm body will do, as long as they don't have a criminal record, etc. These new staff will occupy the positions that the nurses formerly did. The best part is they will be compensated at less than half as much, and will be non-unionized ... no expensives benefits, no lobby power, etc.

Step 5.

Let's be honest - a personal support worker / porter / random citizen is not as good as a nurse, and there are bound to be problems and growing pains with this new system. Luckily, we already planned for that, and we now have twice as many junior residents (all of whom have the newly minted NDP credential of course). The "extra" residents will spend their general internship year as "charge nurse doctors" supervising the new underlings, teaching them the basics of taking temperatures, changing bed pans, etc.

Step 6.

Realistically, it will probably take upwards of 5 years for this new system to reach an equilibrium. But in the end, we will have achieved:

a) better patient care
b) dramatically reduced healthcare costs
c) restoration of a traditional medical-model / hierarchy

I could go on, but you get the idea...

Comments?
 
The problem with NP's is a fault of the ACGME. For several generations, the ACGME has ignored primary care needs in this country.

It and anyone pulling its strings have restricted access to the practice of medicine to many willing and capable Americans by restricting the total number of medical school graduates. With about 23000k residency spots and only 18000 americans graduates, we have had to import about 5000 IMG/year yet still cannot meet the primary care needs of this country.

For years, ACGME should have espoused recruitment programs that bind medical graduates to primary care. That is they should have recruited candidates specifically for this practice, like the military binds its enrollees for a set period of service. Generally, those that would be chosen in this program type, rather than the traditional route, would not have had the academic credentials to gain admission without a boost, but still have the capacity to finish medical school and residency training in primary care if given the proper support. They may be older than the straight out of college graduate and have had several years to demonstrate a genuine interest in social service. I believe many with masters in nursing would meet this criteria.

The current model selects for "interest" in primary care. Many times as you all are aware, candidates misrepresent their "interest" to be looked at favorably for admission and then pursue higher paying fields when given the chance.

The problem of NP encroachment represents a failure in leadership by the ACGME. It should have actuaries predict the need of physicians per capita and allocate enough graduates to meet those needs. If there is an increase need in the allotment of medical school or residency spots, the government would be more than willing to increase funding if leadership from physicians were more forthcoming.

However, I believe that there is a very conservative strain in medicine that is more concerned with protecting the extraordinary high income of physicians in general by restricting the total number of practitioners.

This protectionist interest has left the door wide open for encroachment of medicine by less trained NPs as Americans die every day due to profit and greed. Of course, this protectionist strain couches its arguments in promoting the highest possible standards of care that can only be met by a select few. In doing so, it promotes the stability of the profession and saves lives. However, the ones that are dying due to a lack of care now are the cost of that standard.

I am not espousing letting the doors wide open like the ABA has done with law schools driving down that profession's earnings, but the bar right now is very restrictive and costing American lives. Meanwhile, a significant challenge to medicine's exclusivity is mounting.
 
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Some of the blame must be passed on to local state boards of medicine. They have been under the radar. Two major reasons:

1) More and more years of residency requirements are added to licenses of graduating medical doctors. This trend is obvious to the oldies.. back in the days they used to give the license to anyone who had 1 year of residency... now half the states wont even look at you before 3 years are done. In the past, residents had the option of quiting residency after 1 or 2 years and simply practicing general medicine / primary care.... This is not an option as it used to be (Despite the fact that in many states independant NPs with less training are allowed to practice medicine (which they are calling nursing to avoid being covered by BOM)).

2) The second reason is indeed the weakness of the BOM to show the world that NP should be monitored by BoM not BoN. Don't expect the BoN to take down nurses who practice bad medicine. That would go against their agenda of spreading the NP movement, regardless of impact on patients.
 
the reason why there are less and less primary care doctors is one reasone.. they pay SUCKS>> if they made a lot of money you wouldnt be able to keep them away.. point blank.
 
I can't believe I'm stepping into this one, but the discussion of what the degree is becomes a message of semantics. Regardless of whether one has an MD in the US/Canada or an MBBS/MBBCh/MBBchBAO from the UK and associated countries, or the equivalent, it is the entry level for medicine - the baccalaureate. Even if a program in the US issues an MD, all of the descriptors are "undergraduate medical education". That is why residency is described as "graduate medical education".

And I'm not just making this up. Don't believe me? Enter "undergraduate medical education" into Google, and see all of the US medical schools that pop up as links.

Actually, a Doctorate of Medicine is considered to be a First Professional Degree, graduate entry degree or second entry degree. It's pretty much the same as a Bachelor's of Medicine, but in the 1800s, American Medical Schools switched to the tradition of the Ancient Universities of Scotland and adopted the M.D. instead. It may not be a Ph.D., but the fact that having a M.D. allows you to do your own benchwork, establish new areas of research, and publish pretty much makes it equivalent.
 
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