NP-surgeons????

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billydoc said:
This is from allnurses.com. But you've got to "love" it. Please don't shoot the messenger...but the messege is here http://allnurses.com/forums/f34/how-long-before-nps-will-able-do-surgery-solo-153219.html

WTF??????? 😱 😕 :scared: 🙄
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Love the quote "I think its time for our PAC and lobbying organizations to get behind this effort. Doing surgery has been part of nursing practice for a long time now, its time for the world to recognize that we NPs are surgeons too and we can do it just as well as the MDs, if not better."

First, since when is doing surgery been a part of nursing practice? Second, since when can an NP perform as well as a surgeon with 4 years of medical school and at least 5 years of residency under their belt.

I know, lets just close all MD schools and switch everything over to NPs!
 
:meanie: I kid ya not...Friendly NP surgical service comming to a neghborhood near you :laugh: :meanie: 🙄
 
holy cow.
i couldn't even finish reading the full thread.
i was embarassed by my peers. 😱

how much additional training will i need to do a Whipple? No...make that a full abdominal sacral resection.

Someone on that board is crazy.
 
lizzied2003 said:
holy cow.
i couldn't even finish reading the full thread.
i was embarassed by my peers. 😱

how much additional training will i need to do a Whipple? No...make that a full abdominal sacral resection.

Someone on that board is crazy.
Click to expand...

Orem and Nightengale are spinning in their graves.
 
In defense of the al nurses thread, the majority of the replies were firmly against nurse surgery. Minor surgical cases, blah, blah, blah, what the heck do you do though when that minor surgical case doesn't go quite as planned, besides say oh ****....
 
Yes, now that i've read it there were some nay sayers. However, there were a few references made that the surgeon really only did 15 minutes of the actual case and that people entertained this as a possibility is ludarcrist. It is almost insulting to the surgeons. I don't want an NP doing my lap chole unless she has gone through a five year surgical residency. Preface that please with medical school where she/he has learned gross anatomy (not just the part that needs fixing) etc.

I think this thread gives those of us who are NP's who hold our license in high regard a bad impression to the medical community. it makes nursing look like the wild west. 👎
 
lizzied2003 said:
Yes, now that i've read it there were some nay sayers. However, there were a few references made that the surgeon really only did 15 minutes of the actual case and that people entertained this as a possibility is ludarcrist. It is almost insulting to the surgeons. I don't want an NP doing my lap chole unless she has gone through a five year surgical residency. Preface that please with medical school where she/he has learned gross anatomy (not just the part that needs fixing) etc.

I think this thread gives those of us who are NP's who hold our license in high regard a bad impression to the medical community. it makes nursing look like the wild west. 👎
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Amen to that, Lizzied! That's exactly why I wanted some fair-minded ppl, including within the NP profession, to see it. It's right out of communist revolutionary play book. Organize, organize, organize. I was debating with myself for the longest time now NP vs MD, after unsuccessful shot at ROSS in the Carib. But I don't want "that" to be the face or even the a$$ of my profession, if I went NP route. Oh well, just a lowely RN here. But that really turned my stomach 😡 🙄
 
billydoc said:
Amen to that, Lizzied! That's exactly why I wanted some fair-minded ppl, including within the NP profession, to see it. It's right out of communist revolutionary play book. Organize, organize, organize. I was debating with myself for the longest time now NP vs MD, after unsuccessful shot at ROSS in the Carib. But I don't want "that" to be the face or even the a$$ of my profession, if I went NP route. Oh well, just a lowely RN here. But that really turned my stomach 😡 🙄
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I've considered MD route as long as I've been in practice so I know what you are going through. It really burns me up when I hear of a post like this as it seems like it is screaming "we are so powerful we've lost the ability to think clearly". Unfortunately, I really don't think one would see a post like this from a PA board because the rules of the game are very clear. With nursing there are many great advocates but there are also those that make us all look crazy.
My needs as an NP are simple..I want to take good care of my patients, do a good job, be respected by my colleagues, sleep a good sleep at the end of a day, and sign the school physical form as a NP not as "MD who completed the exam". But, if they opened a 'surgical NP' route tomorrow I'd defer....and I love procedures.
Good luck to you Billydoc. 😉
 
BillyDoc,
One more thing.
Don't ever consider yourself a 'lowly RN'.
It's one of the toughest jobs out there and usually not recognized...except of course that first week of May when they always pacified our staff with ice cream and free pizza.
 
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It would not surprise me at all if the OP of that thread is actually an SDN member looking to stir up a little mayhem. Just about everyone on that thread called it for what it was: crazy.
 
fab4fan said:
It would not surprise me at all if the OP of that thread is actually an SDN member looking to stir up a little mayhem. Just about everyone on that thread called it for what it was: crazy.
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I, for one, don't like judcial activism in general, and militant activism of some select members of my profession. It could be that the OP of that thread is doing it to make some more bad blood between the discipines. But s/he sure sounds sencere. Stupid, but believing in that "cause". If you care at all, just look at some other posts on that forum where s/he cheers other NP members to drop any collaborative association with thhe docs, and just move out to the State(s) where it is not required alltogether. Another words shortcut the shortcut. And nowhere in those posts there is any mention of a patient, or a public on the receiving end. It's "me, my, mine myself" and what have you. But ppl like that are likely to set back the whole NP movement light years back, IMHO.
 
The guy is just stupid...plain and simple.
 
I give NPs a lot of credit. Not only are they providing much-needed care -- especially primary care -- but they are regulated by nursing, not medicine. I'm interested in the DNP programs and whether DNPs will be considered equivalent to primary care physicians.

Good summary: http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/pdf/DNP.pdf
 
PublicHealth said:
I give NPs a lot of credit. Not only are they providing much-needed care -- especially primary care -- but they are regulated by nursing, not medicine. I'm interested in the DNP programs and whether DNPs will be considered equivalent to primary care physicians.

Good summary: http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/pdf/DNP.pdf
Click to expand...
PH-
I assume you are gunning for APN. Why do you not want to go to medical school?
 
I just skimmed the summary Public Health posted. Thank you.

It sums up what has been said in this and other forums re:the DNP. According to the AACN the DNP will be the "equivalent of other entry level degrees like the MD".
The defense of the doctor title is that most master's level nursing programs are now approaching 3 yrs. and the master's title is not adequate to describe the extra workload. The only place to go is the 'clinical doctorate'.

There is no discussion of hard science equivalency in anatomy, pathophys.,histo. etc. much less a description of any form of rotating clerkships.

The degree will be seen as equivalent even if the holder of said degree has less clinical instruction time at graduation than most medical students have at the end of their surgery core.

I've heard the "nursing experience" argument and it just doesn't stretch very far. I breakfasted w/a NP-to-be over the weekend and was a little freaked to hear how she had no clinical experience at all prior to graduate school and now is 1 month away from tremendous autonomy. She is hoping to "get a job as an RN for awhile so I can get some clinical skills". Yipes!!!

She related that greater than half of her class is in this situation since most candidates sre in the "accelerated bridge program".
A BA in interpretative dance + 5 semsters in a nursing program and you get an RN, a master's degree, an autonomous practice in 24 short months, and if you support the right PAC, you can be called doctor lickety split!!!


Equivalent in the number of syllables, vowels and consonants? Sure. Equivalent in terms of completing the highest level of education you can achieve so you are equipped to actually identify and treat ill patients? Not by a long shot.
 
What the heck are our heathcare leaders doing to protect patients? 😕 :scared: 😱 👎 They need to change the law so that doctors can organize in the name of patient safety!

fuegorama said:
I just skimmed the summary Public Health posted. Thank you.

It sums up what has been said in this and other forums re:the DNP. According to the AACN the DNP will be the "equivalent of other entry level degrees like the MD".
The defense of the doctor title is that most master's level nursing programs are now approaching 3 yrs. and the master's title is not adequate to describe the extra workload. The only place to go is the 'clinical doctorate'.

There is no discussion of hard science equivalency in anatomy, pathophys.,histo. etc. much less a description of any form of rotating clerkships.

The degree will be seen as equivalent even if the holder of said degree has less clinical instruction time at graduation than most medical students have at the end of their surgery core.

I've heard the "nursing experience" argument and it just doesn't stretch very far. I breakfasted w/a NP-to-be over the weekend and was a little freaked to hear how she had no clinical experience at all prior to graduate school and now is 1 month away from tremendous autonomy. She is hoping to "get a job as an RN for awhile so I can get some clinical skills". Yipes!!!

She related that greater than half of her class is in this situation since most candidates sre in the "accelerated bridge program".
A BA in interpretative dance + 5 semsters in a nursing program and you get an RN, a master's degree, an autonomous practice in 24 short months, and if you support the right PAC, you can be called doctor lickety split!!!


Equivalent in the number of syllables, vowels and consonants? Sure. Equivalent in terms of completing the highest level of education you can achieve so you are equipped to actually identify and treat ill patients? Not by a long shot.
Click to expand...
 
fuegorama said:
I've heard the "nursing experience" argument and it just doesn't stretch very far. I breakfasted w/a NP-to-be over the weekend and was a little freaked to hear how she had no clinical experience at all prior to graduate school and now is 1 month away from tremendous autonomy. She is hoping to "get a job as an RN for awhile so I can get some clinical skills". Yipes!!!

She related that greater than half of her class is in this situation since most candidates sre in the "accelerated bridge program".
A BA in interpretative dance + 5 semsters in a nursing program and you get an RN, a master's degree, an autonomous practice in 24 short months, and if you support the right PAC, you can be called doctor lickety split!!!


QUOTE]

What a PAC?? Beyond my question IMO...
This is what's wrong with the nursing gig even pre-Dr.NP.
Fast track everything. Get people excited that they too can go from classroom to clinic without ever working as a nurse.
I think that the 'nursing experience' does have some weight...if in fact you have the nursing experience. And by that I mean years at bedside and hopefully a critical care/ER arena where you have honed some critical thinking skills. This is especially beneficial in a teaching/university setting where the patients may be sicker.

The woman you breakfasted with doesn't sound like she has any experience so I struggle with how she will be as a provider.
However, I'm sure there is someone grading her papers right now as she prepares to become 'autonomous'.

Please...I hope they don't develop a 'fast track' DNP.'
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lizzied2003 said:
Please...I hope they don't develop a 'fast track' DNP.'
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Why wouldn't they? Wasn't it you who pointed out (on a different thread) that one of the reasons you went NP versus MD was that the NP programs were more understanding of your family life? Given this traditional "friendly" focus by nursing, why wouldn't they come up with a "fast-track" option. It would have the additional advantage of turning out providers rapidly, establishing a foothold that becomes politically difficult to remove.
 
Taurus said:
What the heck are our heathcare leaders doing to protect patients? 😕 :scared: 😱 👎 They need to change the law so that doctors can organize in the name of patient safety!
Click to expand...

It is not a matter for "doctors". NPs fall under the state nursing boards, led by the same people who are pushing this agenda. Medical boards (and doctors) have NO say in it at all.
 
Squad51 said:
It is not a matter for "doctors". NPs fall under the state nursing boards, led by the same people who are pushing this agenda. Medical boards (and doctors) have NO say in it at all.
Click to expand...

Do you think that if they are successful at 'main-streaming' a DNP program and begin taking on even more autonomous primary care responsibilities that law-makers may finally see that they are practicing MEDICINE and not nursing?
 
Squad51 said:
Why wouldn't they? Wasn't it you who pointed out (on a different thread) that one of the reasons you went NP versus MD was that the NP programs were more understanding of your family life? Given this traditional "friendly" focus by nursing, why wouldn't they come up with a "fast-track" option. It would have the additional advantage of turning out providers rapidly, establishing a foothold that becomes politically difficult to remove.
Click to expand...

My comment was tongue in cheek....
There's absolutely no reason to think they wouldn't.

And on the parellel of docs who resent the midlevels I'm sure it's the same that I resent the nurse who falls into this fast track, makes a similiar salary, and uses protocols to determine how to deliver care instead of clinical examination. To me it's unthinkable that nursing leaders would allow it but as we've seen...they are fast tracking the masters so why the hell not.

I'm not sure that was me on another thread who said my personal reasons for going the NP route...

I did say that the nursing/NP route does provide flexibility and often I would say that the nurse is usually working so this flexibility was a must.

I do not believe I have ever disclosed my choice of NP career on this board. And it's unlikely I've discussed my family life to any degree.
 
lizzied2003 said:
My comment was tongue in cheek....
There's absolutely no reason to think they wouldn't.

And on the parellel of docs who resent the midlevels I'm sure it's the same that I resent the nurse who falls into this fast track, makes a similiar salary, and uses protocols to determine how to deliver care instead of clinical examination. To me it's unthinkable that nursing leaders would allow it but as we've seen...they are fast tracking the masters so why the hell not.

I'm not sure that was me on another thread who said my personal reasons for going the NP route...

I did say that the nursing/NP route does provide flexibility and often I would say that the nurse is usually working so this flexibility was a must.

I do not believe I have ever disclosed my choice of NP career on this board. And it's unlikely I've discussed my family life to any degree.
Click to expand...

If I mis-quoted you you have my most sincere apologies. I'm sorry.
 
nebrfan said:
Do you think that if they are successful at 'main-streaming' a DNP program and begin taking on even more autonomous primary care responsibilities that law-makers may finally see that they are practicing MEDICINE and not nursing?
Click to expand...

Nope. Nursing as a political body is far more organized than physicians. Without extremely serious, absolutely airtight, babies dying in the streets, kinds of studies, there will be no change. The moves in statehouses across the country is for more and more encroachment on traditionally "MD/DO" turf by any number of other providers. Chiropractors have widening scopes and authority to market as PCPs in many states, PTs have direct access, NPs can practice unsupervised, and PA supervision is legally minimal. This isn't going to change because MD/DOs simply don't have the political cohesion and drive that these providers do.

And as for DNPs? There is no way to address them. Nursing is a political firestorm that no poltician will take on. And the nursing boards in just about every state operate unmolested. As long as those boards claim authority over the DNP who is going to challenge them? Woe be to the physician who lets their name be used on the first lawsuit... Do you realize how much power and control over physician QI/QA is performed by nurses? You would need every physician who testified against the DNP in every state to be willing to give up their practice because shortly after testifying, they will be forced out.
 
Squad, don't worry about it....sometimes we read fast and process later.

As an NP I think it should be enough for me to have a PCP practice and be happy with it. If i want to go further I should pursue medical school or my PhD in some esoteric nursing subject.

I suspect that there may be a power component involved there somewhere (the DNP gig) but i won't venture into that for fear of being flamed by my fellow nurses. Having ones DR NP will not automatically give admitting priviledges at hospitals. No matter how much they say that the program will give you these things are still determined by the medical staff. Our medical staff is composed of Physicians, mostly male and a few very bitter females . I have been at my hospital for nearly 6 years and despite my credibility I still think my having admitting priviledges would be shot down. We just haven't come that far yet. I guess I could stamp my feet and yell about all the money I bring in to the hospital but why the hell bother? I'll wait it out a few years and see what happens. Getting my DNP does not automatically give me that right of admission. Power struggles between groups are always so ugly and self defeating anyway.
 
lizzied2003 said:
Squad, don't worry about it....sometimes we read fast and process later.

As an NP I think it should be enough for me to have a PCP practice and be happy with it. If i want to go further I should pursue medical school or my PhD in some esoteric nursing subject.

I suspect that there may be a power component involved there somewhere (the DNP gig) but i won't venture into that for fear of being flamed by my fellow nurses. Having ones DR NP will not automatically give admitting priviledges at hospitals. No matter how much they say that the program will give you these things are still determined by the medical staff. Our medical staff is composed of Physicians, mostly male and a few very bitter females . I have been at my hospital for nearly 6 years and despite my credibility I still think my having admitting priviledges would be shot down. We just haven't come that far yet. I guess I could stamp my feet and yell about all the money I bring in to the hospital but why the hell bother? I'll wait it out a few years and see what happens. Getting my DNP does not automatically give me that right of admission. Power struggles between groups are always so ugly and self defeating anyway.
Click to expand...

Why on earth would you think other nurses would flame you for being anti-DNP? I think it's positively ridiculous. Getting a PhD because you want to teach nursing/do research...fine. But a doctoral degree to be a provider. Seriously.
 
fab4fan said:
Why on earth would you think other nurses would flame you for being anti-DNP? I think it's positively ridiculous. Getting a PhD because you want to teach nursing/do research...fine. But a doctoral degree to be a provider. Seriously.
Click to expand...

That's simple...because one of my very close friends (also an NP) has already approached me about this great idea of DNP. She is a tremendous asset to the NP world as she is politically active in a logical way. However, I have also seen that defensive side come through when I've said 'what's the point of this degree and how is it really going to change my practice'.
I suspect that there are several NP's who would think my logic of 'just go to medical school' is someone not very alligent to nursing overall. When in fact it is not about sides. It is about how even though this program has started out with best intentions, it does have a lot of room to go wrong if they don't set high standards and if they do any bridge programs. I'm not 'against' DNP I just don't understand why I would spend a lot of money to get initials after my name that would not change my status or situation. So my patients could call me doctor???? I'd feel like an ass if that happened as I would know inside what my picture of 'doctor' really means. I'm fine being my patients NP and though sometimes it is hard when patients say 'when will you be done with school' or 'why aren't you a doctor' it's those times I will tell them why.
Timing in life is everything.

I will need to check out I suppose the nursing website (allnurses) to find out the take on this. My viewpoint is likely confined to this board.
 
fuegorama said:
PH-
I assume you are gunning for APN. Why do you not want to go to medical school?
Click to expand...

I'm an MSII. 😉
 
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Squad51 said:
Nope. Nursing as a political body is far more organized than physicians. Without extremely serious, absolutely airtight, babies dying in the streets, kinds of studies, there will be no change. The moves in statehouses across the country is for more and more encroachment on traditionally "MD/DO" turf by any number of other providers. Chiropractors have widening scopes and authority to market as PCPs in many states, PTs have direct access, NPs can practice unsupervised, and PA supervision is legally minimal. This isn't going to change because MD/DOs simply don't have the political cohesion and drive that these providers do.

And as for DNPs? There is no way to address them. Nursing is a political firestorm that no poltician will take on. And the nursing boards in just about every state operate unmolested. As long as those boards claim authority over the DNP who is going to challenge them? Woe be to the physician who lets their name be used on the first lawsuit... Do you realize how much power and control over physician QI/QA is performed by nurses? You would need every physician who testified against the DNP in every state to be willing to give up their practice because shortly after testifying, they will be forced out.
Click to expand...

Throw in the towel! 🙄
 
Taurus said:
What the heck are our heathcare leaders doing to protect patients? 😕 :scared: 😱 👎 They need to change the law so that doctors can organize in the name of patient safety!
Click to expand...

Just to stay with real world, you do know that many patients are harmed by our current system.
 
lizzied2003 said:
but i won't venture into that for fear of being flamed by my fellow nurses.
Click to expand...

Come on lizzied, let me be a role model for you. I'll provide an "educational moment" for anyone! :laugh:
 
Squad51 said:
It is not a matter for "doctors". NPs fall under the state nursing boards, led by the same people who are pushing this agenda. Medical boards (and doctors) have NO say in it at all.
Click to expand...
Practicing medicine without a license applies to nurses who think they know everything as well.
 
If an NP is functioning within the scope of his/her practice, then that NP is practicing nursing, not medicine. Just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

And as I said in a previous thread, if you have proof that someone is practicing outside his/her scope, then you are obligated professionally to report it. Having a bad attitude, however, doesn't qualify.

And it's not like there aren't plenty of doctors out there who think they know everything. 🙄

I have to laugh at the perception that nursing is so powerful politically. We can't even agree aong ourselves on entry-level education! The AMA is far more powerful than the ANA. I think some doctors are just frustrated because nursing is a separate discipline and not controlled by physicians. (Note that I said "some doctors.")
 
stephend7799 said:
i l ike the one later on in the thread where the poster says let them do the minor procedures such as lap choles and hernias...

thats a ****ing laugh.. since when did a lap chole become minor surgery.. geezzz
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No kidding. The general surgery attending I had for a preceptor in PA school would have a field day with the topic in that silly thread. Not to mention the upper level gen surgery residents I worked with...hard as nails. I'm a PA and thankfully know better than to ever think I could replace a general surgeon in the operative field. First and second assist with cases? No problem. Push the surgeon aside? Well..at least it would be a quick death! 😛 Not in a million years.
 
Monika said:
First and second assist with cases? No problem. Push the surgeon aside? Well..at least it would be a quick death! 😛
Click to expand...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, the surgeon will know where to cut ya so you won't feel any pain.
 
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