Nuclear/Electrical Engineer thinking of Radiology/Radiation Oncology

[bihari]

I am a junior studying Electrical Engineering at a Top-5 engineering school. I transferred to the school from a community college so it is my first semester, hence the only gpa I can speak of is the one at my community college, which was about 3.2.

I initially was not considering medicine because I thought that medicine was 100% biology, but I learned later that this was not the case. After taking a modern physics course, I've become very interested in nuclear physics/decay/radiation/imaging related things, so I registered for a intro. to nuclear engineering class and my interest remains, and I am contemplating switching from Electrical no Nuclear (better yet, my school has a pre-med concentration within Nuclear).

If I were to pursue medicine, I would like to be either a Radiologist or a Radiation Oncologist; the reason being my interest in Physics (I got B's in the calc based sequence, and did well on the sections related to radioactive decay and nuclear physics).

The only 'pre-med' courses I have taken are:
Gen. Chem. 1
Calculus
Calc based Physics 1 (mechanics)
Calc based Physics 2 (e&m)
My plan is to take the remaining Biology (2 courses), Gen Chem (1 course), and Organic Chemistry (2 courses) courses over the summers/wherever I can fit them in my schedule (my community college offers Organic 1 and 2 in sequence, taking the ENTIRE summer, but saving time nonetheless)

Extra curriculars (so far, I still got 2.5~3 yrs to work on it): Internship at world renowned engineering firm, member of many student organizations/clubs/activities/whatever one calls them. Had an on campus job at my community college doing IT work.

My questions are:

1. So far classes are going ok this semester, with my current grades in my classes I am pulling a 3.2 again, what should my 'goal' be for medical schools? Of course the higher the better, but 4.0 is not exactly attainable anymore. I still have 2.5 years until I graduate, and am planning on fitting in as many 'easy' classes I can to raise the GPA.

2. Is there any issue becoming a Radiologist/Radiation Oncologist if I get a DO?

3. Will my background as a Nuclear and Radiological Engineer be of significance during the application process?

4. Anything else that will help?

Thanks!

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[engineeredout]

My questions are:

1. So far classes are going ok this semester, with my current grades in my classes I am pulling a 3.2 again, what should my 'goal' be for medical schools? Of course the higher the better, but 4.0 is not exactly attainable anymore. I still have 2.5 years until I graduate, and am planning on fitting in as many 'easy' classes I can to raise the GPA.

As high as you can get. 3.2 is on the lower end, but fortionately for you you have time to raise it

2. Is there any issue becoming a Radiologist/Radiation Oncologist if I get a DO?

No, DOs can specialize in the same areas as MDs

3. Will my background as a Nuclear and Radiological Engineer be of significance during the application process?

I'm a chemical engineer myself. I met yesterday with a doctor (a radiologist coincidently) who used to be on the board of admissions at stony brook medical center in order to get some advice before my interviews coming up (first on monday). He told me that my engineering background looks somewhat unique, and unlike a lot of the people that they see, something specific drew me into medicine after entering college instead of just following the "Straight" way of high school, then four year bio degree concentrating on med school only. Plus hell, engineering will certainly teach you how to manage your time.

4. Anything else that will help?
Shadow radiologists/radoncs. Have you considered becoming a radiology tech?


Thanks!

bah

 

[MossPoh]

Radiation Oncology is one of the toughest areas of medicine to match into. It is difficult as an MD and I've never even heard of a DO matching into it. Doesn't mean it is impossible and I'm sure someone will post a person that does, but the programs tend to be based at more of the large academic centers, which isn't really the DO m.o.

I can speak more for Radiology than radiation oncology, but you are largely a physician that uses the modalities to diagnose. You won't use physics on a daily basis by any means. There is a physics portion of the boards, which is often feared but not the largest component of knowledge. One has to enter medicine with the belief they'd be content with one of the easier specialities to match. (I'm not saying they are bad or easy specialities, because they aren't) If you enter in deadset on radiation oncology and don't match, well you're s.o.l. or you can spend a couple years doing research and trying to match. Enter because you love medicine and then pursue your dream within the dream (aka speciality).

Just go shadow a bit and see if it still interests you. Perhaps you'd simply be better off with bioengineering or something.

 

[bihari]

I have heard this from others as well regarding Radiation Oncology. I would be just as content being a Radiologist. I don't really want to be a tech, I like the physics side of things so I am taking some imaging and radiation courses within the EE/NE curriculum. Another possibility I was considering was Medical Physics, but I would like to try, otherwise I'll never know. Is it more common to see a DO in Radiology?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I have heard this from others as well regarding Radiation Oncology. I would be just as content being a Radiologist. I don't really want to be a tech, I like the physics side of things so I am taking some imaging and radiation courses within the EE/NE curriculum. Another possibility I was considering was Medical Physics, but I would like to try, otherwise I'll never know. Is it more common to see a DO in Radiology?

Where I live (Las Vegas), I would say yes its common to see DOs in radiology and I'm pretty sure its the same everywhere else I'm just not a 100% sure. In fact I'm shadowing a DO radiologist on next Friday.

 

[bihari]

Where I live (Las Vegas), I would say yes its common to see DOs in radiology and I'm pretty sure its the same everywhere else I'm just not a 100% sure. In fact I'm shadowing a DO radiologist on next Friday.

I should probably be doing the same...

 

[Gold 5]

Pick an easier major. They will not give you extra credit for picking a difficult major.

I am a junior studying Electrical Engineering at a Top-5 engineering school. I transferred to the school from a community college so it is my first semester, hence the only gpa I can speak of is the one at my community college, which was about 3.2.

I initially was not considering medicine because I thought that medicine was 100% biology, but I learned later that this was not the case. After taking a modern physics course, I've become very interested in nuclear physics/decay/radiation/imaging related things, so I registered for a intro. to nuclear engineering class and my interest remains, and I am contemplating switching from Electrical no Nuclear (better yet, my school has a pre-med concentration within Nuclear).

If I were to pursue medicine, I would like to be either a Radiologist or a Radiation Oncologist; the reason being my interest in Physics (I got B's in the calc based sequence, and did well on the sections related to radioactive decay and nuclear physics).

The only 'pre-med' courses I have taken are:
Gen. Chem. 1
Calculus
Calc based Physics 1 (mechanics)
Calc based Physics 2 (e&m)
My plan is to take the remaining Biology (2 courses), Gen Chem (1 course), and Organic Chemistry (2 courses) courses over the summers/wherever I can fit them in my schedule (my community college offers Organic 1 and 2 in sequence, taking the ENTIRE summer, but saving time nonetheless)

Extra curriculars (so far, I still got 2.5~3 yrs to work on it): Internship at world renowned engineering firm, member of many student organizations/clubs/activities/whatever one calls them. Had an on campus job at my community college doing IT work.

My questions are:

1. So far classes are going ok this semester, with my current grades in my classes I am pulling a 3.2 again, what should my 'goal' be for medical schools? Of course the higher the better, but 4.0 is not exactly attainable anymore. I still have 2.5 years until I graduate, and am planning on fitting in as many 'easy' classes I can to raise the GPA.

2. Is there any issue becoming a Radiologist/Radiation Oncologist if I get a DO?

3. Will my background as a Nuclear and Radiological Engineer be of significance during the application process?

4. Anything else that will help?

Thanks!

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I should probably be doing the same...

Here's where you can get started on that: http://www.osteopathic.org/YOM/Mentor_exchange.htm

It will list all of the available DO's in your area that are more than willing to take pre-med students in for shadowing. A little tip that I found out was to only fill in the city and state and it should bring up all of the DO's available and then you can just pick ones you to shadow. Good Luck🙂

 

[DrMidlife]

3. Will my background as a Nuclear and Radiological Engineer be of significance during the application process?

Getting a degree in engineering does NOT make you an engineer. If you want to work as an engineer for a while before going to med school, then you're an engineer. Otherwise you simply hold an undergrad degree in a hard major.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I am a junior studying Electrical Engineering at a Top-5 engineering school. I transferred to the school from a community college so it is my first semester, hence the only gpa I can speak of is the one at my community college, which was about 3.2.

I initially was not considering medicine because I thought that medicine was 100% biology, but I learned later that this was not the case. After taking a modern physics course, I've become very interested in nuclear physics/decay/radiation/imaging related things, so I registered for a intro. to nuclear engineering class and my interest remains, and I am contemplating switching from Electrical no Nuclear (better yet, my school has a pre-med concentration within Nuclear).

If I were to pursue medicine, I would like to be either a Radiologist or a Radiation Oncologist; the reason being my interest in Physics (I got B's in the calc based sequence, and did well on the sections related to radioactive decay and nuclear physics).

The only 'pre-med' courses I have taken are:
Gen. Chem. 1
Calculus
Calc based Physics 1 (mechanics)
Calc based Physics 2 (e&m)
My plan is to take the remaining Biology (2 courses), Gen Chem (1 course), and Organic Chemistry (2 courses) courses over the summers/wherever I can fit them in my schedule (my community college offers Organic 1 and 2 in sequence, taking the ENTIRE summer, but saving time nonetheless)

Extra curriculars (so far, I still got 2.5~3 yrs to work on it): Internship at world renowned engineering firm, member of many student organizations/clubs/activities/whatever one calls them. Had an on campus job at my community college doing IT work.

My questions are:

1. So far classes are going ok this semester, with my current grades in my classes I am pulling a 3.2 again, what should my 'goal' be for medical schools? Of course the higher the better, but 4.0 is not exactly attainable anymore. I still have 2.5 years until I graduate, and am planning on fitting in as many 'easy' classes I can to raise the GPA.

2. Is there any issue becoming a Radiologist/Radiation Oncologist if I get a DO?

3. Will my background as a Nuclear and Radiological Engineer be of significance during the application process?

4. Anything else that will help?

Thanks!

1) Do as well as you can. I would recommend taking as many classes that are NOT sciences as you can, b/c after college you probably wont have a chance to take them.

2) As said previously, Rad-onc is very competitive to match into. This is one of the few fields where you must have publications and often the candidates are MD/PhDs. You will be at a significant disadvantage as a DO.

Radiology, again is very competitive but the circumstances are not the same as Rad-Onc. While MDs do have higher match rates and more matches into radiology per class, a radiology residency, even an allopathic one is attainable with good grades, scores and away rotations.

3) not when the guy you are competing with has 5 pertinent publications and a PhD in the field.

 

[MossPoh]

I have heard this from others as well regarding Radiation Oncology. I would be just as content being a Radiologist. I don't really want to be a tech, I like the physics side of things so I am taking some imaging and radiation courses within the EE/NE curriculum. Another possibility I was considering was Medical Physics, but I would like to try, otherwise I'll never know. Is it more common to see a DO in Radiology?

It is fairly common, depending on area. My dad is a radiologist and my mom was an xray tech, so I've been surrounded by radiology my entire life and will probably end up in it...but am considering other areas first. While my dad practiced in south florida, he never encountered a D.O. radiologist...ever. When we moved to the midwest, 3 of the 4 other partners were D.Os. It is possible for sure. There is very little crossover between techs and radiologists now. Before the introduction of CT, it was fairly common for the radiologist to be the all knowing overseer of all things radiology. The digital explosion changed all of that, and while they needed to focus on learning the intricacies of pathology and what not in different modalities, the techs began to specialize in the actual usage of the modalities. So, you began to see a divergence in knowledge beginning in the early to mid 80s.

I suggest you just crank away and get the premed courses out of the way, shadow, volunteer, have fun, take MCAT and apply to a variety of schools. When your verified gpa comes out and you have an MCAT score you can gauge how many DO or MD schools to throw in within your reach and state residency.

 

[bihari]

1) Do as well as you can. I would recommend taking as many classes that are NOT sciences as you can, b/c after college you probably wont have a chance to take them.

Planning to do so, trying to fit such classes in schedule next semester

2) As said previously, Rad-onc is very competitive to match into. This is one of the few fields where you must have publications and often the candidates are MD/PhDs. You will be at a significant disadvantage as a DO.

Would a DO/PhD (nuclear engineering/medical physics/health physics/physics) be more competitive?

Radiology, again is very competitive but the circumstances are not the same as Rad-Onc. While MDs do have higher match rates and more matches into radiology per class, a radiology residency, even an allopathic one is attainable with good grades, scores and away rotations.

Sounds more promising

 

[MossPoh]

Most of the phd stuff you'll see won't be in the engineering/physics area. The medical stuff, likely. Many phds view the MD/PHD or very rare DO/PHD as an "easier" way to get the phd. The main point is to offer research credentials and really doesn't do much more than that. Many phds find it difficult to believe that you can have a sufficient study/research experience in the slightly extra time that is required with the MD. If you have an interest in research then it is a nice option, but if you just want to practice then it is a waste of time in my opinion. Some residency programs will be impressed and others won't give a damn. Just depends on the program.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I can speak more for Radiology than radiation oncology, but you are largely a physician that uses the modalities to diagnose. You won't use physics on a daily basis by any means. There is a physics portion of the boards, which is often feared but not the largest component of knowledge. One has to enter medicine with the belief they'd be content with one of the easier specialities to match. (I'm not saying they are bad or easy specialities, because they aren't) If you enter in deadset on radiation oncology and don't match, well you're s.o.l. or you can spend a couple years doing research and trying to match. Enter because you love medicine and then pursue your dream within the dream (aka speciality).

Rad/Onc is very technical, main focus is pathophysiology of oncology coupled with the physics of ionized radiation. Research and new developments of treatment are booming. The OP has the backgroud to not only pursue it, but to succeed in it. On the contrary, you are correct that diagnostic radiology is less "mathematical" in actual clinical practice compared to rad/onc.
However, no one, by any means, has to or should enter medicine with the belief they'd be content with one of the easier specialties. Never in a million years did I embark on my path to become a physician to settle for something I did not truly want to do. I can guarantee that none of my fellow friends or classmates ever entered med school thinking they were going to settle. They all went and are pursuing what they want, whether it be IM or Neurosurg. I understand this may be your way of telling the OP that Rad/Onc is super competitive, and I agree that it is. It really is. It has some of the most brilliant minds in the field.

Pick an easier major. They will not give you extra credit for picking a difficult major.

OP, keep your major. You are obviously passionate about engineering and it will only benefit you if you truly want to have a career in Rad/Onc. It will definitely be noticed during med school applications that you didn't go the "Biology" route. A 3.2 in engineering is pretty damn good. Keep it up, the higher the better (obviously). If you like nuclear engineering better, than switch.

Also, any degree combined with a PhD will be looked highly upon (MD/PhD, DO/PhD) You don't have to enter the medical field primarily loving medicine, there are plenty of research opportunities that could satisfy your first love of engineering, and keep your "interest" in the medical part. However, be prepared that you will have to go through a lot of rotations and study material that you will not enjoy to get there. You will have to do FP, surgery, OB/Gyn just like everyone else. It's a long road, but worth it in the end if you do what you love. I would definitely shadow a Rad/Onc to get some exposure to see if you really like it, and may open up some opportunities to assist in a research project (absolutely do this). Hope this helps

 

[bihari]

Thanks for all the info everyone!

btw what does 'OP' mean (I just joined this forum a few days ago lol)

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

Thanks for all the info everyone!

btw what does 'OP' mean (I just joined this forum a few days ago lol)

OP = original poster

 

[bihari]

OP = original poster

lol thanks!

do you agree with the others regarding the difficulty of a DO getting into Radiation Oncology?

also, would it be better for me to get a M.S. degree (1 yr) first and then apply to medical schools? (I figure I can also brush up my MCAT during that time [if needed], as well as work on a thesis which can be counted as a publication, if I am not mistaken)

PhD (3 yrs minimum) is also possible, but I think that would be too hard since I would have to retake the MCAT and whatnot, unless I get into a DO/PhD or MD/PhD program...

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I completely understand what people are saying that Radiation Onc is very competitive, but what I don't understand is how people figure that its impossible for a DO to attain such a position. How many DO's actually apply for that residency spot?? There is 3x more MD graduates than there are DO graduates and there are at least 162 spots available for Rad Onc (not sure about AOA residency programs). It seems to me that its impossible for ANYONE to get in regardless of initials, but then again I don't really know too much about rad onc cause I don't have any interest in it. And of course I'm pre-med so I really don't know.

 

[Instatewaiter]

In the charts that the ERAs people provide there have been 0 DOs who have gotten PGY1 Rad Onc positions in all of the years listed: 2004-2008

 

[MossPoh]

gobuckeyes, I was referring mainly to radiology and not radiation oncology. While radiology is a technical field, you won't be doing physics problems in it as much as have a base knowledge of why things work the way they do. If you doubt me, give a radiologist that has been practicing for 20+ years a physics/calculus test and see how they do...it won't be pretty.

 

[MossPoh]

I completely understand what people are saying that Radiation Onc is very competitive, but what I don't understand is how people figure that its impossible for a DO to attain such a position. How many DO's actually apply for that residency spot?? There is 3x more MD graduates than there are DO graduates and there are at least 162 spots available for Rad Onc (not sure about AOA residency programs). It seems to me that its impossible for ANYONE to get in regardless of initials, but then again I don't really know too much about rad onc cause I don't have any interest in it. And of course I'm pre-med so I really don't know.

I don't think it is "impossible" but I do feel that it is one of those areas that is very unfavorable as a DO. Once you get past the equality thing you notice that it is still slightly trickier/riskier to match allopathic in certain specialities. That was my point about the spots as well. There are so few spots it is tough as hell for most MDs to get in. Many of them have a home program and research out the arse to sucker up to for experience. I can't remember the average board scores off the top of my head, but it is right up there with Derm and Integrated Plastics.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

In the charts that the ERAs people provide there have been 0 DOs who have gotten PGY1 Rad Onc positions in all of the years listed: 2004-2008

But how many applied?? You can't say its impossible for DOs to get in if none have actually ever applied to these programs. If 10 applied and none got in then I can say ok I see your point but if 0 got in and 0 applied there's no point to that statistic.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I don't think it is "impossible" but I do feel that it is one of those areas that is very unfavorable as a DO. Once you get past the equality thing you notice that it is still slightly trickier/riskier to match allopathic in certain specialities. That was my point about the spots as well. There are so few spots it is tough as hell for most MDs to get in. Many of them have a home program and research out the arse to sucker up to for experience. I can't remember the average board scores off the top of my head, but it is right up there with Derm and Integrated Plastics.

OP, if this is what you want then work your BOOTy off to get it, and don't give up until your satisfied with what you have in hand. I guess being an AA woman, I'm always hearing about what's impossible for me so in turn I will never tell someone they can't ever do something in their life its just al about their will and determination to accomplish that.

 

[scpod]

In the charts that the ERAs people provide there have been 0 DOs who have gotten PGY1 Rad Onc positions in all of the years listed: 2004-2008

Yes, but in those same years the total number of spots for EVERYONE in the world who was applying ranged from only 9 to a whopping high of 17. The last two years there have been 15 spots available...total. It's pretty darned hard to get one of those spots at all, regardless of your degree.

 

[Instatewaiter]

But how many applied?? You can't say its impossible for DOs to get in if none have actually ever applied to these programs. If 10 applied and none got in then I can say ok I see your point but if 0 got in and 0 applied there's no point to that statistic.

Don't know how many applied and frankly i dont care. I never said it is impossible, just difficult.

Self selection plays a big part in residency applications. This is why you see some competitive specialties with >90% match rates.

Some added data: Of those who matched: Median USMLE 236, ~22% have PhDs, average of 6 publications/abstracts etc.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Don't know how many applied and frankly i dont care. I never said it is impossible, just difficult.

Self selection plays a big part in residency applications. This is why you see some competitive specialties with >90% match rates.

Some added data: Of those who matched: Median USMLE 236, ~22% have PhDs, average of 6 publications/abstracts etc.

Interesting. 🙄

 

[Instatewaiter]

Yes, but in those same years the total number of spots for EVERYONE in the world who was applying ranged from only 9 to a whopping high of 17. The last two years there have been 15 spots available...total. It's pretty darned hard to get one of those spots at all, regardless of your degree.

Rad onc has traditionally been a PGY 2 program. Yeah couldnt find the data on PGY2 positions earlier but did some more research and found it.

15 radonc PGY1
121 PGY2- including 2 IMGs, 1 osteopathic. 128 MD

So again, not impossible. just difficult

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

gobuckeyes, I was referring mainly to radiology and not radiation oncology. While radiology is a technical field, you won't be doing physics problems in it as much as have a base knowledge of why things work the way they do. If you doubt me, give a radiologist that has been practicing for 20+ years a physics/calculus test and see how they do...it won't be pretty.

I didn't disagree with you about diagnostic rads whatsoever in my post, maybe you should read it again.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

lol thanks!

do you agree with the others regarding the difficulty of a DO getting into Radiation Oncology?

also, would it be better for me to get a M.S. degree (1 yr) first and then apply to medical schools? (I figure I can also brush up my MCAT during that time [if needed], as well as work on a thesis which can be counted as a publication, if I am not mistaken)

PhD (3 yrs minimum) is also possible, but I think that would be too hard since I would have to retake the MCAT and whatnot, unless I get into a DO/PhD or MD/PhD program...

I agree that it's difficult for anyone to get into a PGY1 RadOnc spot. You can do DO/PhD or MD/PhD which prob would be easier than doing it separately. You don't have to do a masters degree first, especially if you do a combined program in med school. You will have plenty of research opportunity.

Rad onc has traditionally been a PGY 2 program. Yeah couldnt find the data on PGY2 positions earlier but did some more research and found it.

15 radonc PGY1
121 PGY2- including 2 IMGs, 1 osteopathic. 128 MD

So again, not impossible. just difficult

Totally agree about the PGY2 thing. I still think it's a myth that anyone actually gets a PGY1 spot (obviously I'm joking, because they do. I just don't know or hear of anyone getting them). . . but that just tells you how difficult it is to match into PGY1 year .

 

[McDirty]

I was just wondering when these so-called publications, abstracts, research, etc is supposed to be performed while in medical school if you are considering one of these specialties. I don't really understand the whole jist of this research thing.

 

[bihari]

I assume these works are done by PhD/MD or PhD/DO (dual admission) students