Nurse Practitioner vs. PA

[Bandit]

there are restrictions on ordering MRI and blood products? new one on me. can anyone site references??

thanx

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[zenman]

I can't believe I would actually agree with you on anything ....

How does it feel to be on your way to enlightment!

Okay, so one for zenman - don't get to happy - I still don't see eye-to-eye on the rest of the 'voodoo" approach to medicine. I will stick with the crappy old western medicine when it comes to managing disease.

When patients do not comply with our recommendations, is it because we have failed somewhere?

Instead of looking at things you do not understand yet as "voodoo," reframe them into your own reality, as Herbert Benson did with meditation and call it the "Relaxation Response" or relabel shamanism as "guided imagery." Both have an excellent empirical track record and are more palable to western minds than the original wording.

 

[lawguil]

How does it feel to be on your way to enlightment!



When patients do not comply with our recommendations, is it because we have failed somewhere?

Do you find it easier to get your patients to comply with meditation and voodoo over "conventional" western medicine. I admit that I wouldn't have the skills to get the majority of my patients to meditate and perform voodoo for an ACL tear. Just how unconventional are you? Tell me, do your patients really like you or are they simply weirded out by you? L.

 

[lawguil]

I do have a story to tell about when my wife was pregnant and she/we went to see a nurse practitioner. I'll never get this mental picture out of my mind when we were listening to the baby’s heartbeat and she looked up and smiled for about 60 seconds. She just tried to be so supportive, but it was phony and uncomfortable. We just weren’t interested in sharing any emotions or feelings we were having with her. It was like one of those baby stories on TV - just awful. We changed who we were seeing. Just for the record, I'm very satisfied with western medicine and how impersonal it is. L.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I do have a story to tell about when my wife was pregnant and she/we went to see a nurse practitioner. I'll never get this mental picture out of my mind when we were listening to the baby’s heartbeat and she looked up and smiled for about 60 seconds. She just tried to be so supportive, but it was phony and uncomfortable. We just weren’t interested in sharing any emotions or feelings we were having with her. It was like one of those baby stories on TV - just awful. We changed who we were seeing. Just for the record, I'm very satisfied with western medicine and how impersonal it is. L.

I like impersonal most of the time. Healthcare involves situations that may be very personal for some people especially when it involves areas considered private or conditions that might be embarrassing - who wants a touchy feely we will get through this together provider. I would rather have honest and somewhat disconnected I am available if you need me provider.

zenman - I have no chance for enlightenment - I banished my inner-child. I have little interest in complementary medicine unless it has an established track record. As a DO student some OMM gives me pause - but I try to keep an open mind. I think if you encourage a healthy diet, exercise and less destructive behaviors (drugs, etoh, etc) then healthcare would be more effective - now if that is considered complimentary then sign me up but I think it falls more in line with preventative medicine that is not emphasized because of severe time constraints during patient visits

I think that encouraging healthy behaviors could be more emphasized during routine health checks with patients that have chronic conditions such as hypertension - since medication efficacy and B/P check only takes a few minutes but I suspect patients are not really interested in changing bx to improve health. No, many wait until they have an MI to get religion and in the end many probably go back to smoking, eating fast food and surfing channels. It sounds jaded but it is probably a fair assumption as to why simple patient teaching has fallen to the wayside - patient are not interested and there is not enough time

well, zenman no enlightenment here - go hug a tree if it helps

 

[zenman]

Do you find it easier to get your patients to comply with meditation and voodoo over "conventional" western medicine. I admit that I wouldn't have the skills to get the majority of my patients to meditate and perform voodoo for an ACL tear. Just how unconventional are you? Tell me, do your patients really like you or are they simply weirded out by you? L.

Is your continued use of the word "voodoo" a defense mechanism? Remember there are a lot of physicians who would wonder why you can't "see." Maybe you need to switch to one of the many med schools now looking at integrative medicine. Now when you do OMM do you have to work at it and do high velocity or can you just touch the area and let it go where it should go? One way is just too much work!

I'm not unconventional at all...just very straight forward and practical about what works and doesn't work. Did you grow up in the country or in the concrete jungle? Most people like me but that's just relationship skills and compassion for their stories...but they are not their stories.

I'm still ruggedly handsome doen't you think! http://www.aikitouch.us/about_randy.htm

 

[deleted6669]

Is your continued use of the word "voodoo" a defense mechanism? Remember there are a lot of physicians who would wonder why you can't "see." Maybe you need to switch to one of the many med schools now looking at integrative medicine. Now when you do OMM do you have to work at it and do high velocity or can you just touch the area and let it go where it should go? One way is just too much work!

I'm not unconventional at all...just very straight forward and practical about what works and doesn't work. Did you grow up in the country or in the concrete jungle? Most people like me but that's just relationship skills and compassion for their stories...but they are not their stories.

I'm still ruggedly handsome doen't you think! http://www.aikitouch.us/about_randy.htm

who is the tall guy standing next to you?.....
I saw the web address with aiki in it.....do a little aikido myself...very cool-e

 

[oldManDO2009]

Is your continued use of the word "voodoo" a defense mechanism? Remember there are a lot of physicians who would wonder why you can't "see." Maybe you need to switch to one of the many med schools now looking at integrative medicine. Now when you do OMM do you have to work at it and do high velocity or can you just touch the area and let it go where it should go? One way is just too much work!

I'm not unconventional at all...just very straight forward and practical about what works and doesn't work. Did you grow up in the country or in the concrete jungle? Most people like me but that's just relationship skills and compassion for their stories...but they are not their stories.

I'm still ruggedly handsome doen't you think! http://www.aikitouch.us/about_randy.htm

much like the jedi I use the force for HVLA and I sense if the joint has returned to balance and harmony with the rest of the body - also works well for lymphatic pump

are you implying that someone born in the concrete jungle is spiritually depraved - and those fortunate enough to be raised in harmony with bambi are more spiritually in tune? sounds racist to me

why am I posting when finals are next week ! WHY? im spiritually dead - help me

did ya "see" that coming z man

 

[zenman]

are you implying that someone born in the concrete jungle is spiritually depraved - and those fortunate enough to be raised in harmony with bambi are more spiritually in tune? sounds racist to me

why am I posting when finals are next week ! WHY? im spiritually dead - help me

did ya "see" that coming z man

Saw it a long time ago

People who's feet have never been off concrete tend to not be "one with nature" and therefore lacking in "listening" skills. Never even been coon hunting have ya?

 

[zenman]

why am I posting when finals are next week ! WHY? im spiritually dead - help me

I've got finals in 3 days; maybe I should also study soon.

 

[zenman]

who is the tall guy standing next to you?.....
I saw the web address with aiki in it.....do a little aikido myself...very cool-e

We were sitting down. However, I do have a pic of me standing by the perfect woman in Nepal. She came up to my belt!

 

[lawguil]

Is your continued use of the word "voodoo" a defense mechanism? Remember there are a lot of physicians who would wonder why you can't "see." Maybe you need to switch to one of the many med schools now looking at integrative medicine. Now when you do OMM do you have to work at it and do high velocity or can you just touch the area and let it go where it should go? One way is just too much work!

I'm not unconventional at all...just very straight forward and practical about what works and doesn't work. Did you grow up in the country or in the concrete jungle? Most people like me but that's just relationship skills and compassion for their stories...but they are not their stories.

I'm still ruggedly handsome doen't you think! http://www.aikitouch.us/about_randy.htm

Another amazing story,

I've been experiencing this horrible headache for about 2 days now. Today when I checked SDN and saw your picture, my headache immediately disappeared. Thank-you Zenman! Another believer has been made! L.

 

[zenman]

Another amazing story,

I've been experiencing this horrible headache for about 2 days now. Today when I checked SDN and saw your picture, my headache immediately disappeared. Thank-you Zenman! Another believer has been made! L.

Usually when I help someone with a headache, I'm naked. Glad you feel better though.


...just couldn't help myself

 

[oldManDO2009]

Usually when I help someone with a headache, I'm naked. Glad you feel better though.


...just couldn't help myself

is that kind of practice even covered by malpractice insurance?

 

[lawguil]

Wow! Lol

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

A PA is a person who is trained by and with physicians, and who has to sweat it out for 14 months of clinical rotations right there next to the third year medical students. An NP is a person who completes about one fifth the amount of clinical hours in their curriculum as a PA, and has to spend their first year out of school really learning how to practice medicine. The PA profession is based on the medical model which is a watered down rushed curriculum of "medicine", while an NP curriculum is still "nursing" at its core. Where I went to school, PA's had an entire semester of learning to read EKG's for instance, while the NP students came to our class for one week to learn the basics. There is no comparrison between the education of a PA vs. an NP. However, like anything else in life, the NP profession has much better lobbyists, and thus they can practice more autonomously in certain places and with fewer restrictions. The theory behind NP training is that RN's are a natural transition to practitioners of medicine. Sadly, this is not true. Nurses, as in RN's, are highly trained medical providers that often times get the bad end of the stick from physicians, and thus they never really get to do much with their high degree of training. Some of the best PA students in my class were RN's, and when asked why they became PA's instead of NP's, they all said it was because they wanted to be able to practice with confidence and be respected. There are definitely good NP's out there but overall I think you will see that physicians favor PA's because of the very rigorous nature of PA training.

NP's fill a niche where advanced knowledge is necessary, and where most PA's aren't "touchy feely" enough to provide good care. Often times this means in OB/GYN and Peds.

I normally don't get involved in petty discussions like this, but I'm not about to let this one slip by. First off, I graduated from a NP program and I was trained in the nursing AND medical models. Also, I always hear docs/PA's complaining that NP's are trained by nurses and PA's are trained by doctors (as if the latter is better). Guess what...I was trained by PHYSICIANS! I did ALL of my clinical rotations with internists. Several of my classes were taught by the SAME PHYSICIANS WHO TAUGHT AT THE MEDICAL SCHOOL. So, don't assume that your education is better than mine, because I'll put mine up against yours any time. As far as physicians favoring PA's over NP's, I'll agree with that. In my opinion, it's because doctors view NP's as COMPETITION! PA's will NEVER practice independently because the Medical Boards will NEVER ALLOW IT! Docs will always have their thumb on PA's and that's EXACTLY why I would recommend a NP program over a PA program any day!

There's power in numbers and Advanced Practice Nurses far outnumber PA's and the trend continues. Also, a PA is an "ASSISTANT" and a NP is a "PRACTITIONER"!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

According to your reasoning, doing a BSN and then PA school versus BSN then NP school would make one better prepared as a midlevel provider than, right? If so, I would have to agree with you on that.

For the record once again, RN training or experience does not negate the necessity of rigorous medical (you call it nursing) training. That is where this arguement is false. I did it, so I should know. RN training is helpful yes, a substitute no. "Soft" NP clinical training seems to rely on this rather "unsturdy" crutch to justify it's existence.

Frankly, there would be no arguement at all (PA vs. NP) if NP schools greatly expanded their clinical training. Obviously as a PA, I am quite glad that they have no intention of doing so I take that back, they are expanding it some, but then calling it a DNP. It's funny, it still does not equal the hours PA students put in. Better, but not their yet. I won't even go into the joke of calling themselves doctors.

Pat, PA-C, BSN, MPAS

I don't quite understand where people get the idea that NP's are only trained in the "nursing model". That sure as heck wasn't the case at Vanderbilt. We were trained in the medical AND nursing models, plus the majority of my classes were taught by the physicians from the medical school. Also, I did all my clinical rotations with internists (1:1), not with NP's. My experience as a RN definitely prepared me for the job I hold now (I work in internal medicine). As far as the number of clinical hours...I completed 780 clinical hours at NP school. I spent 5 semesters (3 days per week) in clinical rotations in my BSN program. On top of that I spent 10 years practicing as an RN. I'll put my education up against yours any day. Another thing, over 100 studies have compared the outcomes of patients treated by MD's versus NP's and guess what...the patients treated by the NP's fared the same or BETTER than the patients treated by the doctors. Also, you are an ASSISTANT and I'm a PRACTITIONER!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

No nurses aren't the only ones taking care of their patients...although the time spent with the patient in an inpatient settings accounts for nearly 80% for RNs/LPNs, and the rest is for all other services. But that was not my point.
The attempt to "compare" programs PA vs NP is not correct to begin with. There is no question that PAs are training in the medical model, therefore your courses closely resemble med school, except for the length of training. It's only natural. Your programs were created by a medicine for a medicine.NP/CRNA/CNM are not entering a new profession. They advance in the one they've been licensed before.That's why you have to include "the rest of the story" meaning pre and nursing curriculum with all basic science which you think is lacking from the NP programs. NP programs focus on the advanced role of a nurse. I think most ppl have a problem accepting a fact that nursing can diagnose, and prescribe. But I've never seen stats study which would suggest that more ppl are killed every year by more NPs than PAs or wise versa. I guess my main point was that despite differences in medical vs nursing model training, and different governing bodies for NPs and PAs most individual professionals are up for their jobs,rgardless of degree (NP/PA) they hold.Another part of this never-ending feud is that NPs are not regulated by the boards of medicine. There is nothing much that AMA could do other than introducing new bills and ammendments to the State legislatures trying to limit NPs. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It's nothing more than a turf war. Things are drying up in the medical field, and those who have spent the most time and money for their training (MD/DO) are feeling the most of the acute impact of this crisis.
Anyway, only one man's opinion. What's yours?

It's interesting that so many people are commenting on PA's versus NP's, but no one has mentioned the DO controversy. I personally know several MD's who cringe at the thought of DO's practicing medicine. Oh, did you know that psychologists can now prescribe medicine in New Mexico? The "turf wars" continue!

 

[gtleeee]

It's interesting that so many people are commenting on PA's versus NP's, but no one has mentioned the DO controversy. I personally know several MD's who cringe at the thought of DO's practicing medicine. Oh, did you know that psychologists can now prescribe medicine in New Mexico? The "turf wars" continue!

And just what "controversy" is that? UNlike NPs or PAs, D.O.s have been practicing medicine and surgury for over 110 years. I am afraid there is nothing terribly controversial about that after all this time. The concept of NPS and PAs, on the other hand, is relatively new. It is unfortunate that the "right" , as well as the competence, of NPs to practice with any sort of autonomy, makes a host of physicians (MD and DO), "cringe". I am not one of them however. I think too many physicians fear enchroachment on their long cherished "turf". Hence their antagonism at the NP model. The majority of NPs I have encountered (starting in the U.S. Atmy), have been excellent practitioners. With DOs having unlimited licensure for the practice of medicine in all 50 states of the union, and for quite some time, I am afraid not much controversy about their "right" to practice still around.

 

[lawguil]

I don't quite understand where people get the idea that NP's are only trained in the "nursing model". That sure as heck wasn't the case at Vanderbilt. We were trained in the medical AND nursing models, plus the majority of my classes were taught by the physicians from the medical school. Also, I did all my clinical rotations with internists (1:1), not with NP's. My experience as a RN definitely prepared me for the job I hold now (I work in internal medicine). As far as the number of clinical hours...I completed 780 clinical hours at NP school. I spent 5 semesters (3 days per week) in clinical rotations in my BSN program. On top of that I spent 10 years practicing as an RN. I'll put my education up against yours any day. Another thing, over 100 studies have compared the outcomes of patients treated by MD's versus NP's and guess what...the patients treated by the NP's fared the same or BETTER than the patients treated by the doctors. Also, you are an ASSISTANT and I'm a PRACTITIONER!

First - your organization would disagree with you! They have been very explicit about NP’s is being trained in the nursing model! Basically, you are a NURSE! NOTHING ELSE! In my own opinion, they attempt to practice medicine, but without the proper training that PA/DO/MD receives. Further, if what you are saying is true about your educational experience, NP training should set off an alarm and presents a number of concerns about the consistency and uniformity within the education of a nurse "PRACTITIONER" in a global sense.
Your willingness to 'put your education against somebody else’s" only exposes your ignorance. I would encourage you to advance your education and go to PA or medical school once you complete the required undergraduate pre-requisites for admission.

 

[PTOSIS]

dude, i am a third year, i recently had a nurse practitioner ask me what "stenosis" meant. this was a woman who did pre-op clearance for a major hospital.

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

First - your organization would disagree with you! They have been very explicit about NP’s is being trained in the nursing model! Basically, you are a NURSE! NOTHING ELSE! In my own opinion, they attempt to practice medicine, but without the proper training that PA/DO/MD receives. Further, if what you are saying is true about your educational experience, NP training should set off an alarm and presents a number of concerns about the consistency and uniformity within the education of a nurse "PRACTITIONER" in a global sense.
Your willingness to 'put your education against somebody else’s" only exposes your ignorance. I would encourage you to advance your education and go to PA or medical school once you complete the required undergraduate pre-requisites for admission.

First off, I never implied that I would put my education up against a doctors, only a PA's. If I wanted to further my education, I would become a doctor. It's ludicrous to think that a NP would want to further his/her education by going to PA school - that would be a step BACKWARDS! Everything I told you is true about my education, it's not like I forgot the details, since I graduated 4 months ago! It's interesting that you point out the inconsistencies in our education, since ALL states require NP's to be trained at the Master's level. However, not every state requires a PA to be trained at the Master's level. In fact, I know a couple of PA's who have ASSOCIATE DEGREES. Another thing, more than 100 studies have compared MD/NP patient outcomes and the patients treated by the NP's had outcomes equal to or BETTER than those treated by doctors. You can find this information all over the web. So, if you look at it from that standpoint, NP's are far better trained than PA's! I'm not saying that we can treat everything, because we can't...we KNOW when to refer a patient to a doctor. Also, you mentioned that I am a nurse and NOTHING ELSE, as if being a nurse is a lowly position. We are HIGHLY respected by the public, FAR more than PA's! Also, the work I do as a NP is very different from nursing in general. I "give" orders, not "take" them. I make "medical" diagnosis, not "nursing" diagnosis, etc, etc. Obviously, you are a PA and it burns you up that you don't have the autonomy that the NP profession enjoys. You will never have that autonomy because your profession is controlled by Medical Boards. So, maybe you should go to NP school and further YOUR education!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

dude, i am a third year, i recently had a nurse practitioner ask me what "stenosis" meant. this was a woman who did pre-op clearance for a major hospital.

I certainly know the meaning of "stenosis". I prescribed Flagyl to a patient and informed her to stay away from ETOH while she was taking it. My preceptor (an internist) asked me why I told her that. He also wanted to know why I wanted to do a HemA1C on a patient who presented with acanthosis nigrican. So, it's not like we have the market cornered on "stupid".

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

And just what "controversy" is that? UNlike NPs or PAs, D.O.s have been practicing medicine and surgury for over 110 years. I am afraid there is nothing terribly controversial about that after all this time. The concept of NPS and PAs, on the other hand, is relatively new. It is unfortunate that the "right" , as well as the competence, of NPs to practice with any sort of autonomy, makes a host of physicians (MD and DO), "cringe". I am not one of them however. I think too many physicians fear enchroachment on their long cherished "turf". Hence their antagonism at the NP model. The majority of NPs I have encountered (starting in the U.S. Atmy), have been excellent practitioners. With DOs having unlimited licensure for the practice of medicine in all 50 states of the union, and for quite some time, I am afraid not much controversy about their "right" to practice still around.

Maybe it's just the part of the country I live in, but I work with several MD's who don't respect the education/training of DO's. I was going to refer a patient to an excellent urologist (DO) I know, but my boss told me that he didn't want to send his patients to a "second-rate" specialist. I asked another internist why that doctor made that comment and he said that DO's didn't have the same type of training as a MD. He added that it was well known that if you couldn't get into medical school, then you applied to DO school. I absolutely don't agree with them. I PREFER DO's over MD's because of their holistic view of medicine...very similar to the way NP's are trained. I appreciate the comments you made about NP's . I'm so tired of people, especially PA's, who are so intent on dragging our profession down.

A lot of people don't realize that CRNA's were giving anesthesia to patients before anesthesiologists were invented. Also, NP's have been around since the beginning of time...in the form of nurse midwives!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

First - your organization would disagree with you! They have been very explicit about NP’s is being trained in the nursing model! Basically, you are a NURSE! NOTHING ELSE! In my own opinion, they attempt to practice medicine, but without the proper training that PA/DO/MD receives. Further, if what you are saying is true about your educational experience, NP training should set off an alarm and presents a number of concerns about the consistency and uniformity within the education of a nurse "PRACTITIONER" in a global sense.
Your willingness to 'put your education against somebody else’s" only exposes your ignorance. I would encourage you to advance your education and go to PA or medical school once you complete the required undergraduate pre-requisites for admission.

Obviously you aren't aware of all the inconsistencies involved in the educational preparation of PA's in this country (US). Here's a link (below) to the American Board of PA's. As you can see, several schools offer bachelors and associate degrees and a few of them even offer CERTIFICATE PROGRAMS laugh: ! So, let me get this straight...you're concerned that NP's don't have enough education/training? NOW I know why people are always getting physician's assistants confused with medical assistants. So, maybe I'll give up my fancy MS degree and go back to get my Associates degree so I'll be "qualified" to do my job ha ha ha ha ha!

http://www.aapa.org/glance.html

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Duke's FNP curriculum
Duke's PA curriculum

Quinnipiac's FNP curriculum
Quinnipiac's PA curriculum

Western University's FNP curriculum
Western University's PA curriculum

Yale's FNP curriculum
Yale's PA curriculum

Baylor's FNP curriculum
Baylor's PA didactic curriculum
Baylor's PA clinical curriculum

I don't think it is biased or hateful to say that PAs get MUCH more education than NPs. Compare the programs for yourself, I think it is more fact than opinion.

How about listing some PA programs that grant Bachelors/Associate degrees or certificates! Find me one NP program that doesn't grant a Master's degree. An NP MUST have a Master's degree in order to practice in EVERY STATE! Would you want a healthcare provider who only had a high school education? Oh yeah, if you think I'm mistaken, look at the American Academy of Physician's Assistants website (link below) and you can get a good look at the PA programs out there. This is EXACTLY why people are always confusing physician's assistants with medical assistants. Actually, a medical assistant spends approximately the same amount of time at a Vo-tech as a lot of PA's spend in ABC Community College !

http://www.aapa.org/glance.html

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Every PA program I listed also requires a 4-year degree. Four of the five also require prior pt experience. Not that RN experience isn't valuable... but nurses aren't the only people who take care of patients and have valuable skills. My paramedic program was a 2-year degree, and that was after a 4-year BS in a health care related field.

This isn't a pi$$ing match, as you put it. I agree 100% with your last sentence.

WAIT A MINUTE! I just checked out those links and was surprised to see that I completed several of those courses in my BSN program! PLUS, I spent a LOT more time in clinicals during my BSN program than any of these schools require! On top of that I spent 780 clinical hours in my MSN program (I won't even go into my 10 yrs of clinical experience). WHERE do you get off saying that PA's are better educated? THIS IS WHY NP'S HAVE MORE AUTONOMY THAN PA's - WE HAVE FAR MORE EDUCATION & CLINICAL EXPERIENCE! Deal with it or go back to school and become a MD/DO/NP!

 

[fab4fan]

Getting respect for NPs is not going to happen with insulting other professionals. If nurses are going to be treated with the respect the want (and deserve) the "matching insult for insult" needs to stop.

There are well prepared PAs and there are poorly prepared PAs. There are well prepared NPs and there are poorly prepared NPs.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm an RN, have been for 20y, and am really turned off by petty turf wars. Who's minding the pts. while youse guys are duking it out over who's better?

If you're confident in your practice and abilities, you don't need to denigrate someone else.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Only 10 post and you have already insulted so many - why stop there cyndeeeeee you could start bad mouthing MDs that don't meet your superior training - come on there has to be some second rate doctors out there if you look hard enough.

It is amazing you do not even realize the difference between what an RN does and what a PA in training does and that they are not equal. So all of you 10 years of clinical experience might help you with inserting a foley and starting an IV but it is not gonna get you far in the diagnosis arena. But hold on to those delusions because I am only a second rate medical student and well you know more about everything than anybody else.

I could go on about how there is a huge difference in the sciences required in the two programs but you still would not get it - the huge chips on your shoulders blocks your peripheral vision.

While completing your preceptorship did the PA students not let you play with the other in the reindeer games? All this hostility towards us second rate providers is unhealthy

 

[douflag]

Absolutely astonishing that this is coming out of an NP's mouth...

Can someone call the Troll Patrol, and get her outta here?

Like oldmanDO said, you've definitely insulted many in your few days of trolling. It's definitely people like you who have become so close-minded that cause the controversy between PAs/NPs. Don't you ever forget for a second that both categories are classified as Mid-Level Providers. And I don't care if you have a Masters degree. So you wrote a paper...who cares!? How does that help your clinical training?

And the way you just bashed your own colleague. Some professionalism there. I am really hoping that you do not exhibit this kind of behavior when you're working. BTW, 780 clinical hrs in MSN training isn't that much. A PA gets over 2000 hrs training. Not to mention what other people have stated, but most PAs have prior clinical experience. And if you think community colleges put out poorly trained PAs, then you've got another thing coming. Most will tell you that they put out some of the best PAs. Why, because most require at least 2 yrs of clin experience before they even let you interview.

Yea, PA/DO, and while you're at MDs are second rate. It doesn't matter what training/program/etc you went thru, b/c as long as you treat a patient effectively, and efficiently, that's the only thing that matters.

 

[jwk]

Cyndee, where the hell does all this venomous crap come from? Multiple forums, multiple threads, and not a single positive post to anyone about anything. Maybe you need to see a psych NP to deal with all this pent-up anger and emotion.

 

[guetzow]

Nuff said......

 

[imnodr]

[ I asked another internist why that doctor made that comment and he said that DO's didn't have the same type of training as a MD. He added that it was well known that if you couldn't get into medical school, then you applied to DO school.

And if you couldn't get in there you become CYNDEE MSN NP.

THE TROLL

 

[surgpa]

First off, I never implied that I would put my education up against a doctors, only a PA's. If I wanted to further my education, I would become a doctor. It's ludicrous to think that a NP would want to further his/her education by going to PA school - that would be a step BACKWARDS! Everything I told you is true about my education, it's not like I forgot the details, since I graduated 4 months ago! It's interesting that you point out the inconsistencies in our education, since ALL states require NP's to be trained at the Master's level. However, not every state requires a PA to be trained at the Master's level. In fact, I know a couple of PA's who have ASSOCIATE DEGREES. Another thing, more than 100 studies have compared MD/NP patient outcomes and the patients treated by the NP's had outcomes equal to or BETTER than those treated by doctors. You can find this information all over the web. So, if you look at it from that standpoint, NP's are far better trained than PA's! I'm not saying that we can treat everything, because we can't...we KNOW when to refer a patient to a doctor. Also, you mentioned that I am a nurse and NOTHING ELSE, as if being a nurse is a lowly position. We are HIGHLY respected by the public, FAR more than PA's! Also, the work I do as a NP is very different from nursing in general. I "give" orders, not "take" them. I make "medical" diagnosis, not "nursing" diagnosis, etc, etc. Obviously, you are a PA and it burns you up that you don't have the autonomy that the NP profession enjoys. You will never have that autonomy because your profession is controlled by Medical Boards. So, maybe you should go to NP school and further YOUR education!

You need to start drinking decaf there, Cyndee. I think you should volunteer to become the poster gal for the NP profession. Obviously you have no idea of what you are speaking of.

Mike

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Only 10 post and you have already insulted so many - why stop there cyndeeeeee you could start bad mouthing MDs that don't meet your superior training - come on there has to be some second rate doctors out there if you look hard enough.

It is amazing you do not even realize the difference between what an RN does and what a PA in training does and that they are not equal. So all of you 10 years of clinical experience might help you with inserting a foley and starting an IV but it is not gonna get you far in the diagnosis arena. But hold on to those delusions because I am only a second rate medical student and well you know more about everything than anybody else.

I could go on about how there is a huge difference in the sciences required in the two programs but you still would not get it - the huge chips on your shoulders blocks your peripheral vision.

While completing your preceptorship did the PA students not let you play with the other in the reindeer games? All this hostility towards us second rate providers is unhealthy

HMMMM, how interesting that everyone jumps all over me b/c I've insulted another profession, yet I've seen numerous insults posted against NPs/CRNAs, but no one gives a damn. I would never have posted anything if I hadn't come across this forum the other day and saw all
the s--- thrown at the nursing profession. How DARE a lowly nurse try to take up for his/her profession...that JUST doesn't fit the mold!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Cyndee, where the hell does all this venomous crap come from? Multiple forums, multiple threads, and not a single positive post to anyone about anything. Maybe you need to see a psych NP to deal with all this pent-up anger and emotion.

And you can visit your local psych PA!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Only 10 post and you have already insulted so many - why stop there cyndeeeeee you could start bad mouthing MDs that don't meet your superior training - come on there has to be some second rate doctors out there if you look hard enough.

It is amazing you do not even realize the difference between what an RN does and what a PA in training does and that they are not equal. So all of you 10 years of clinical experience might help you with inserting a foley and starting an IV but it is not gonna get you far in the diagnosis arena. But hold on to those delusions because I am only a second rate medical student and well you know more about everything than anybody else.

I could go on about how there is a huge difference in the sciences required in the two programs but you still would not get it - the huge chips on your shoulders blocks your peripheral vision.

While completing your preceptorship did the PA students not let you play with the other in the reindeer games? All this hostility towards us second rate providers is unhealthy

Oh, but it's OKAY for PA's to bash NP's...RIGHT? Lowly nurse doesn't know her position in society...HOW DARE HER OBJECT TO ANYTHING!

I'm going back to work and I advise YOU to do the same!

 

[ear-ache]

I prescribed Flagyl to a patient and informed her to stay away from ETOH while she was taking it. My preceptor (an internist) asked me why I told her that. He also wanted to know why I wanted to do a HemA1C on a patient who presented with acanthosis nigrican. So, it's not like we have the market cornered on "stupid".

Cyndee,
1. Your attending was probably pimping you because;

2. The American Diabetes Association does not currently recommended HgbA1c as a screening test for DM2 due to the "significant problems in the standardization of A1C assays". They continue to recommend using fasting BG measurement.

3. Humility, courteousness, and respect are fine traits and they would suit you.

4. Please stop, you are making a mockery of our nursing profession.

 

[PTOSIS]

i was going to say the same thing, fasting glucose is the best screening when u suspect diabetes. HbA1C is a used to determine glycemic control in someone who is under treatment. good thing u are " as good or better" at your job than the doc is.

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Only 10 post and you have already insulted so many - why stop there cyndeeeeee you could start bad mouthing MDs that don't meet your superior training - come on there has to be some second rate doctors out there if you look hard enough.

It is amazing you do not even realize the difference between what an RN does and what a PA in training does and that they are not equal. So all of you 10 years of clinical experience might help you with inserting a foley and starting an IV but it is not gonna get you far in the diagnosis arena. But hold on to those delusions because I am only a second rate medical student and well you know more about everything than anybody else.

I could go on about how there is a huge difference in the sciences required in the two programs but you still would not get it - the huge chips on your shoulders blocks your peripheral vision.

While completing your preceptorship did the PA students not let you play with the other in the reindeer games? All this hostility towards us second rate providers is unhealthy

Oh, but it's OKAY for PA's to bash NP's...RIGHT? Lowly nurse doesn't know her position in society...HOW DARE HER OBJECT TO ANYTHING!

I'm going back to work and I advise YOU to do the same!

 

[jwk]

Oh, but it's OKAY for PA's to bash NP's...RIGHT? Lowly nurse doesn't know her position in society...HOW DARE HER OBJECT TO ANYTHING!

I'm going back to work and I advise YOU to do the same!

We're not bashing NP's - just you!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Cyndee,
1. Your attending was probably pimping you because;

2. The American Diabetes Association does not currently recommended HgbA1c as a screening test for DM2 due to the "significant problems in the standardization of A1C assays". They continue to recommend using fasting BG measurement.

3. Humility, curiousness, and respect are fine traits and they would suit you.

4. Please stop, you are making a mockery of our nursing profession.

WRONG! The doctor didn't know the DEFINITION of it! I looked it up for him - HA HA! Interesting, you say that I should learn humility and RESPECT...TELL IT TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM BABY DOC! Oh yeah, we did fasting BS AND HemA1C!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

We're not bashing NP's - just you!

Yeah, right! I would never have even posted on this forum if I hadn't happened upon it 2 days ago and saw all the NP/CRNA bashing going on. I'm just fighting back, but wait a minute...that's SO unbecoming of a woman AND a nurse! I should KNOW that's not accepted in the healthcare profession

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

[ I asked another internist why that doctor made that comment and he said that DO's didn't have the same type of training as a MD. He added that it was well known that if you couldn't get into medical school, then you applied to DO school.

And if you couldn't get in there you become CYNDEE MSN NP.

THE TROLL

NO, YOU BECOME PA-AH (I think you know what the "AH" stands for!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Absolutely astonishing that this is coming out of an NP's mouth...

Can someone call the Troll Patrol, and get her outta here?

Like oldmanDO said, you've definitely insulted many in your few days of trolling. It's definitely people like you who have become so close-minded that cause the controversy between PAs/NPs. Don't you ever forget for a second that both categories are classified as Mid-Level Providers. And I don't care if you have a Masters degree. So you wrote a paper...who cares!? How does that help your clinical training?

And the way you just bashed your own colleague. Some professionalism there. I am really hoping that you do not exhibit this kind of behavior when you're working. BTW, 780 clinical hrs in MSN training isn't that much. A PA gets over 2000 hrs training. Not to mention what other people have stated, but most PAs have prior clinical experience. And if you think community colleges put out poorly trained PAs, then you've got another thing coming. Most will tell you that they put out some of the best PAs. Why, because most require at least 2 yrs of clin experience before they even let you interview.

Yea, PA/DO, and while you're at MDs are second rate. It doesn't matter what training/program/etc you went thru, b/c as long as you treat a patient effectively, and efficiently, that's the only thing that matters.

Let me get this straight. The ABC Community College puts out excellent PA's because they require at least TWO YEARS OF PRIOR CLINICAL EXPERIENCE...IN WHAT? So, THAT clinical experience is SO important, but my 10 YEARS of clinical experience as a RN DOESN'T COUNT!

 

[guetzow]

........................................

 

[lloydchristmas]

Yeah, right! I would never have even posted on this forum if I hadn't happened upon it 2 days ago and saw all the NP/CRNA bashing going on. I'm just fighting back, but wait a minute...that's SO unbecoming of a woman AND a nurse! I should KNOW that's not accepted in the healthcare profession

Yeah, how dare you! Aren't you supposed to be pregnant and barefoot?!?! LOL Go get um, babe!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

Yeah, how dare you! Aren't you supposed to be pregnant and barefoot?!?! LOL Go get um, babe!

Read the title

 

[fab4fan]

HMMMM, how interesting that everyone jumps all over me b/c I've insulted another profession, yet I've seen numerous insults posted against NPs/CRNAs, but no one gives a damn. I would never have posted anything if I hadn't come across this forum the other day and saw all
the s--- thrown at the nursing profession. How DARE a lowly nurse try to take up for his/her profession...that JUST doesn't fit the mold!

Cyndee, this it the "Student Doctor" BB; even I, a lowly diploma nurse, could have told you that you would be in for rough seas here as an NP. Do you honestly think people should respect you purely because of your education? Why should they trust you, when you start off here in an overly aggressive manner?

Your posts just give NP opponents more reasons to mistrust/dislike NPs. There are ways of making a point without trash-talking someone else. While I hate to see a fellow nurse get bashed, quite honestly, you asked for it in spades. What's worse, people like you make it bad for nurses like me, who would rather look for common ground than firing pot-shots at other providers.

While nurses do need outspoken advocates, they don't need people who can't argue their case without resorting to shrill, ad hominem attacks. Please, dial it down.

 

[fab4fan]

Yeah, right! I would never have even posted on this forum if I hadn't happened upon it 2 days ago and saw all the NP/CRNA bashing going on. I'm just fighting back, but wait a minute...that's SO unbecoming of a woman AND a nurse! I should KNOW that's not accepted in the healthcare profession

Gender has nothing to do with it; it's unbecoming, period.

Whatever happened to taking the high ground, leading by example, or even plain vanilla "two wrongs don't make a right"? If you saw posts that bashed NPs (and I'm sure you did), you could have responded calmly, presented well-reasoned counter arguments, or even just logged off this board if you were so distressed by what you read. Responding in kind? Well, how's that working for you?