Nurse to MD Discussion Thread

[JordanMaria]

I was generalizing a bit in my post and obviously, your mileage may vary and different schools may value tech/nurse credentials more than others. But the unfortunate truth is, most M.D. schools still are not entirely non-trad friendly, choosing instead to fill 80-90% of their entering class with 22 year old biology majors without a day's worth of *paid* medical experience.

Now I fully agree that in a better world, you should be far more desireable a candidate than said 22-year-old, given your years of relevant experience. But, we don't live in that world...

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

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[jl lin]

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

I agree Jordan, but in my experience, most do not really know what a RN must know and do. And of course specific areas of specialization make a huge difference in that as well. But I think for most people, unless they worked in it, they really wouldn't know. I LOL when I hear people focusing on the helping with the basic needs of patients. If only it were that simple and that was the extent of responsibility. LOL It's really a tiny part of it. I don't think a lot of people know that.

 

[mooshika]

I agree Jordan, but in my experience, most do not really know what a RN must know and do. And of course specific areas of specialization make a huge difference in that as well. But I think for most people, unless they worked in it, they really wouldn't know. I LOL when I hear people focusing on the helping with the basic needs of patients. If only it were that simple and that was the extent of responsibility. LOL It's really a tiny part of it. I don't think a lot of people know that.

I love it (not) when on the news they call CNA's and LPN's "nurses" although an LPN is technically a nurse, but then they always seem to get the CNA who has bad personal hygiene and poor communication skills and is wearing a scrub top with cutsey stuff all over it who is referred to as a "nurse" - and then the FNP who took care of Michael Jackson (the one who refused to prescribe him propofol - good for her) who they also referred to as a "nurse" who is light years away from the CNA... most people have no idea...

 

[jl lin]

I love it (not) when on the news they call CNA's and LPN's "nurses" although an LPN is technically a nurse, but then they always seem to get the CNA who has bad personal hygiene and poor communication skills and is wearing a scrub top with cutsey stuff all over it who is referred to as a "nurse" - and then the FNP who took care of Michael Jackson (the one who refused to prescribe him propofol - good for her) who they also referred to as a "nurse" who is light years away from the CNA... most people have no idea...

Nursing has pretty much always had a PR problem.

And shows like Nurse Jackie or the like only make it worse.

The only show that was half-decent to nurses--or least was interesting enough for me to overlook it was China Beach.

ER sometimes was alright, and other times it was off. What are ya goona do?

Way they are usually portrayed--like dumb azzes or sex objects or like they are in House--gophers and butt wipers.

 

[Nasrudin]

Nursing has pretty much always had a PR problem.

And shows like Nurse Jackie or the like only make it worse.

The only show that was half-decent to nurses--or least was interesting enough for me to overlook it was China Beach.

ER sometimes was alright, and other times it was off. What are ya goona do?

Way they are usually portrayed--like dumb azzes or sex objects or like they are in House--gophers and butt wipers.

Um Nurse Jackie is awesome. Anti-heros are infinitely more interesting than their do-gooder counterparts.

And then. um. There's this site called allnurses.com. Yeah. Yall should go there and cry on each other's shoulders.

If you ain't noticed. We's here goin to med school. And a. Don't care all that much. Nurses where I live make 70 G's. Cry me a river about your PR problems.

 

[southerngrl]

Um Nurse Jackie is awesome. Anti-heros are infinitely more interesting than their do-gooder counterparts.

And then. um. There's this site called allnurses.com. Yeah. Yall should go there and cry on each other's shoulders.

If you ain't noticed. We's here goin to med school. And a. Don't care all that much. Nurses where I live make 70 G's. Cry me a river about your PR problems.

Uh ...oh....

 

[illegallysmooth]

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

I think he/she meant "tech" more in the way of radiology technician, who would also be a "licensed healthcare professional."

 

[jl lin]

Um Nurse Jackie is awesome. Anti-heros are infinitely more interesting than their do-gooder counterparts.

And then. um. There's this site called allnurses.com. Yeah. Yall should go there and cry on each other's shoulders.

If you ain't noticed. We's here goin to med school. And a. Don't care all that much. Nurses where I live make 70 G's. Cry me a river about your PR problems.

Woe Nas. Kind of harsh and unnecessary.

Nurse Jackie should be Nurse Jackazz, and any decent nurse I know says it's more unnecessary negative PR.

Apparently you don't have as much respect as you claim.

This is a separate thread re: nurses, so I don't see why it would bother you. It's regarding RN to MD perspectives. Why would you enter a thread you didn't really care about????

$70,000 to 80,000 is by way of a LOT of freaking abuse. Not to mention the fact that it is often very cut-throat internally. People would be shocked at the utter amount of backstabbing. Nowadays it's just way more sneaky or subversive; it's a sad set of dynamics. And in my view, it's part of the reason that there is a lack of better PR. When the profession is unstable from within b/c of all the backbiting and horizontal and vertical abuse, it's no wonder why it can stand strong and thus the PR issue has NOT remarkably improved. People don't want to talk about it; but that's exactly part of the reason it doesn't improve as it should. There is only the illusion of improvement.

You earn every damn cent of that income. Least I know I sure as hell always have.

 

[Nasrudin]

Woe Nas. Kind of harsh and unnecessary.

Nurse Jackie should be Nurse Jackazz, and any decent nurse I know says it's more unnecessary negative PR.

Apparently you don't have as much respect as you claim.

This is a separate thread re: nurses, so I don't see why it would bother you. It's regarding RN to MD perspectives. Why would you enter a thread you didn't really care about????

$70,000 to 80,000 is by way of a LOT of freaking abuse. Not to mention the fact that it is often very cut-throat internally. People would be shocked at the utter amount of backstabbing. Nowadays it's just way more sneaky or subversive; it's a sad set of dynamics. And in my view, it's part of the reason that there is a lack of better PR. When the profession is unstable from within b/c of all the backbiting and horizontal and vertical abuse, it's no wonder why it can stand strong and thus the PR issue has NOT remarkably improved. People don't want to talk about it; but that's exactly part of the reason it doesn't improve as it should. There is only the illusion of improvement.

You earn every damn cent of that income. Least I know I sure as hell always have.

Are you a premed? Serious question. I just don't get that this is a political forum for Nursing issues.

It's not has nothing to do with respect. I've spent years doing nursing scut. But I decided that wouldn't do and did otherwise.

I'm suggesting you consider doing the same. You'll waste too much psychic energy if you don't.

 

[jl lin]

Are you a premed? Serious question. I just don't get that this is a political forum for Nursing issues.

It's not has nothing to do with respect. I've spent years doing nursing scut. But I decided that wouldn't do and did otherwise.

I'm suggesting you consider doing the same. You'll waste too much psychic energy if you don't.

Nas dude. I already shared as much in the other thread started by a person that is RN-MD or DO, whichever.

I didn't start this thread. I just blew in with my two cents, period. Sorry, but I type and read fast--sometimes my typing really shows this--more speed than accuracy I'm afraid.

A part of me hear's the perspective you are leaning toward. But people of like circumstances tend to want feedback and input from others in similar situations. I mean you get that, right?

But no. I wasn't and don't plan on spending much time on it. I mean at the end of the day I do know that it is what it is, and my goals have changed in recent times, b/c I had to admit that I think differently and my proclivity lies elsewhere. I could whine about why I didn't come to this conclusion and act on it sooner; but where would that get me?

If it helps people to discuss this kind of thing, so be it. At the same time, you have a point.

So moving on.

 

[CATrtb]

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

Where I work there are some nurses who look down their noses at all the "techs". You know, like the Radiologic Technologists, Medical Technologists, and Respiratory Therapists, etc. A great deal of these "techs" do have bachelor's degrees. So no, nurses do not have more skill, stress, or knowledge than these individuals--just different skills, stress, and knowledge. Also, there are a lot of nurses who do not have bachelor's degrees. In some hospitals I've worked in, one could not tell the difference between Licensed Practical Nurses and Registered Nurses.

 

[Savage Henry]

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

A shrill harpy, indeed

On a board filled with surgeons, OB-Gyn residents, neurotic premeds, and Ivy League bluebloods, who'd have believed the most arrogant recent post would have been written by a nurse? No need to apologize - I probably didn't really understand what you wrote anyway, since you are so many light years more advanced than I am.

Yours in inferior skill, knowledge, stress tolerance, education, and humility,

Savage Henry
Radiologic Technician

 

[tncekm]

A shrill harpy, indeed

On a board filled with surgeons, OB-Gyn residents, neurotic premeds, and Ivy League bluebloods, who'd have believed the most arrogant recent post would have been written by a nurse? No need to apologize - I probably didn't really understand what you wrote anyway, since you are so many light years more advanced than I am.

Yours in inferior skill, knowledge, stress tolerance, education, and humility,

Savage Henry
Radiologic Technician

Don't take it too harshly, bud. Nurses have been trying to convince the world that MD's are unnecessary for quite some time now, so I guess I'd like to extend you, and the rest of your "tech" friends, an offer to "join the club".

 

[Savage Henry]

Don't take it too harshly, bud. Nurses have been trying to convince the world that MD's are unnecessary for quite some time now, so I guess I'd like to extend you, and the rest of your "tech" friends, an offer to "join the club".

Tech no understand you. Me tech. Me push button. Make-um purty pik-shure wif bone. Lot of typing make-um me hed hertz.

Me go now.

 

[tncekm]

tech no understand you. Me tech. Me push button. Make-um purty pik-shure wif bone. Lot of typing make-um me hed hertz.

Me go now.

lol.

 

[jl lin]

Where I work there are some nurses who look down their noses at all the "techs". You know, like the Radiologic Technologists, Medical Technologists, and Respiratory Therapists, etc. A great deal of these "techs" do have bachelor's degrees. So no, nurses do not have more skill, stress, or knowledge than these individuals--just different skills, stress, and knowledge. Also, there are a lot of nurses who do not have bachelor's degrees. In some hospitals I've worked in, one could not tell the difference between Licensed Practical Nurses and Registered Nurses.

1. I have particular favor for RTs b/c we work with them so much, since most of our patients are, at least for a time receiving ventilatory support. 2. See Rad Techs a lot b/c we are usually doing a lot of portable X-rays--so I'm cool with them. Med Techs are in the lab, and their role is essentialy, so I have much respect for them. Some people, regardless of their title are just, well, smacked azzes. It's just life. I don't look down on anybody. We are all their for the patient, period.

There is much different in functioning in many places and in professional functioning between LPNs and RNs especially in acute and critical care settings.

All RNs, whether hospital school-based, two-year school based or four years - all take the same state boards. The big difference between the BSN and the ADN is with regard to community health nursing, leadership and administration, and research, and the course reflects this and some extra credits to meet the 120 or 130 credits for the bachelor's. The nursing otherwise is the same. And the sciences should be the same, but apparently some programs have their own hybrids, whereas in a lot of I think ADNs the bios, chem, courses are the same as others in pre-med or allied health.

 

[illegallysmooth]

...

I absolutely love the comments on here about the lowly NAs. I'm one of them. I'm finishing my masters and heading to medical school in the fall. Many of the NAs I work with are in nursing school (2 and 4 yrs) and 2 were pre-med. You do realize only a few days can distinguish an NA from a GN?

I love getting **** from some high-and-mighty nurse only for her to find out I already have 3 times the years of health/medicine-related college education as she does, in addition to my experience in the ER, Med/Surg and pediatrics.

Respect is a two-way street. In general, it's not a good idea to bad-mouth anyone else for their position on the totem pole. You don't know what people are capable of, nor what their plans are.

 

[tncekm]

The nursing otherwise is the same. And the sciences should be the same, but apparently some programs have their own hybrids, whereas in a lot of I think ADNs the bios, chem, courses are the same as others in pre-med or allied health.

No, they're not even close. Nurses take "introductory" courses. They're essentially courses for non-science majors and they're ridiculously easy. And yes, that includes your anatomy and physiology class.

 

[illegallysmooth]

No, they're not even close. Nurses take "introductory" courses. They're essentially courses for non-science majors and they're ridiculously easy. And yes, that includes your anatomy and physiology class.

Yes, the science courses my nursing student friends take are similar to the courses offered at my undergrad college for non-science majors. They result in a basic understanding of bio, chem, etc.

And please, don't get upset about this. We're not talking about ability here. The science courses that science majors or pre-meds take are not neccessary for nurses- there's no reason they would need them. It would actually be stupid to make them take those kinds of courses and increase the overall difficulty and workload of the program, which would take time away from the nursing courses (which are more important).

 

[jl lin]

No, they're not even close. Nurses take "introductory" courses. They're essentially courses for non-science majors and they're ridiculously easy. And yes, that includes your anatomy and physiology class.

That's NOT true. It depends on your school. In my school you HAD to take same Gen Bio and Gen Chem or you COULD NOT get into the Microbiology, A & P I and II or the pathophys.

I will tell you what I told someone else--and I will tell the people that think they may no more than some nurses simple b/c they took more general sciences. Such courses build the underlament, but they do not impart you necessarily with a greater medical science base. But anyway, here it is. Take the CCRN exam from AACN--and for overall medical knowledge--take the adult CCRN. Then get back to me. Thing is, you have to have so many clinical hours in intensive care areas as a RN or you can't sit to take it.

But if you think you'll waltz in there and do great on it, think again. There's a fair amount of medicine on that--of of that specialized medical knowledge R/T critical care medicine---there are nursing application questions, but the medical science is there nontheless.

I could go on, but I have been down this road before, and I don't really care that much, since ultimately my goals are different now. Plus I'm non-traditional, and pizzing contests are not as great or important as they are for people when they are new 20's or for those that haven't moved past that point yet. Ya get over it, and ya realize that no one knows it all and none of us will EVER know it all--no matter how much schooling and clinical experience we get.

You find out not everything is worth fighting over. Truly it isn't. Believe whatever you want.

 

[The right Path]

A shrill harpy, indeed

On a board filled with surgeons, OB-Gyn residents, neurotic premeds, and Ivy League bluebloods, who'd have believed the most arrogant recent post would have been written by a nurse? No need to apologize - I probably didn't really understand what you wrote anyway, since you are so many light years more advanced than I am.

Yours in inferior skill, knowledge, stress tolerance, education, and humility,

Savage Henry
Radiologic Technician

Holy inferiorty complex, Batman. The OP was simply saying that a nurse (board licensed) is not the same as a tech (in the OP's context, a volunteer or nurse's aide). I wouldn't go along with the statement that a nurse has more stress tolerance than a tech, however, the statement about skill and education (as it pertains to nursing) is absolutely true. Try to lump a physician's skill and education in with that of a PA or NP and see how well that goes over.

Tech no understand you. Me tech. Me push button. Make-um purty pik-shure wif bone. Lot of typing make-um me hed hertz.

Me go now.

Really? Wow, you must be that guy I always have to keep a super sharp eye on so you don't extubate my patients or pull their central lines.

...

I absolutely love the comments on here about the lowly NAs. I'm one of them. I'm finishing my masters and heading to medical school in the fall. Many of the NAs I work with are in nursing school (2 and 4 yrs) and 2 were pre-med. You do realize only a few days can distinguish an NA from a GN?

I love getting **** from some high-and-mighty nurse only for her to find out I already have 3 times the years of health/medicine-related college education as she does, in addition to my experience in the ER, Med/Surg and pediatrics.

Respect is a two-way street. In general, it's not a good idea to bad-mouth anyone else for their position on the totem pole. You don't know what people are capable of, nor what their plans are.

I didn't see any badmouthing or any implication that CNA's are lowly in this thread. The point is that CNA/LVN/LPN/RN are not interchangable positions- even though John Q. Public may not be able to recognize/articulate the difference.

Of course respect is a two-way street. That should be the standard for anyone in any line of work. And while a newgrad RN has quite the learning curve ahead, s/he is still held to the same legal standards as the old, salty veteran RN. It can be uncomfortable for that newgrad RN to exert authority over the older, experienced, pre-med CNA with a PhD that s/he previously worked alongside, but ultimately the CNA is subordinate to the RN, and it is the RN's license that is on the line. Obviously, when an RN is not delegating appropriately or respectfully, if the problem cannot be resolved between the two, well, that is what supervisors, managers, and directors are for.

 

[Nasrudin]

Of course respect is a two-way street. That should be the standard for anyone in any line of work. And while a newgrad RN has quite the learning curve ahead, s/he is still held to the same legal standards as the old, salty veteran RN. It can be uncomfortable for that newgrad RN to exert authority over the older, experienced, pre-med CNA with a PhD that s/he previously worked alongside, but ultimately the CNA is subordinate to the RN, and it is the RN's license that is on the line. Obviously, when an RN is not delegating appropriately or respectfully, if the problem cannot be resolved between the two, well, that is what supervisors, managers, and directors are for.

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to indicate about the clinical/medical/legal hierarchy. In trying to distinguish the responsibilities of physicians and nurses. It mirrors exactly the nursing support to nurse relationship. Part of it is necessary. Part of it is obligatory legal nonsense. And part of it misapplies to the sustenance of large and unwieldy egos.

As a nurse's helper. Nurse's can be just a pompous as your average entitled physician.

Could you please translate to Jl Lin for me. We seem to speak different languages. Despite being able to both type in English.

 

[The right Path]

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to indicate about the clinical/medical/legal hierarchy. In trying to distinguish the responsibilities of physicians and nurses. It mirrors exactly the nursing support to nurse relationship. Part of it is necessary. Part of it is obligatory legal nonsense. And part of it misapplies to the sustenance of large and unwieldy egos.

As a nurse's helper. Nurse's can be just a pompous as your average entitled physician.

Could you please translate to Jl Lin for me. We seem to speak different languages. Despite being able to both type in English.

Oh I agree, having met a pompous RN or two . I'll let Jl Lin speak for herself, but I'm pretty sure she'll heartily agree.

My Jl Lin<---->Nasrudin has never been formally evaluated.

Through my own (admittedly nurse-tinted) lenses, I "get" that she takes on issues relating to nurses switching careers to medicine. Hell, I can't stay away from it myself. It does raise the question whether time and energy spent addressing misconceptions of nursing is worthwhile in a physician/pre-physician forum. Who knows? I do appreciate the support/advice of other RNs that have been or are going down this road. I suppose it doesn't hurt prospective physicians to get an accurate understanding of the other professionals they collaborate with, either.

 

[Nasrudin]

Oh I agree, having met a pompous RN or two . I'll let Jl Lin speak for herself, but I'm pretty sure she'll heartily agree.

My Jl Lin<---->Nasrudin has never been formally evaluated.

Through my own (admittedly nurse-tinted) lenses, I "get" that she takes on issues relating to nurses switching careers to medicine. Hell, I can't stay away from it myself. It does raise the question whether time and energy spent addressing misconceptions of nursing is worthwhile in a physician/pre-physician forum. Who knows? I do appreciate the support/advice of other RNs that have been or are going down this road. I suppose it doesn't hurt prospective physicians to get an accurate understanding of the other professionals they collaborate with, either.

To each their own lens then. But I hear you. And her. To the extent mi comprendo.

The RN to physician bias/discrimination is out there. Nothing that can't be overcome though. And nothing that doesn't occur along other lines to similar extents--race, gender, whathaveyou.

 

[Savage Henry]

Holy inferiorty complex, Batman.

Nah. I'm pretty secure in who and what I am, and where I'm going. I also really, really like my job.

The OP was simply saying that a nurse (board licensed) is not the same as a tech (in the OP's context, a volunteer or nurse's aide).

I agree with the way you've stated this. It doesn't seem that the OP understands that this applies in fields other than nursing, though.

Really? Wow, you must be that guy I always have to keep a super sharp eye on so you don't extubate my patients or pull their central lines.

Sure thing.

It can be uncomfortable for that newgrad RN to exert authority over the older, experienced, pre-med CNA with a PhD that s/he previously worked alongside, but ultimately the CNA is subordinate to the RN, and it is the RN's license that is on the line. Obviously, when an RN is not delegating appropriately or respectfully, if the problem cannot be resolved between the two, well, that is what supervisors, managers, and directors are for.

That's very well said. This phenomenon exists in many other fields, as well. There is the stereotypical butter bar Lieutenant arguing with the salty old Platoon Sergeant, the hotshot young MBA butting heads with the factory foreman with thirty years on the line, etc. Everybody has different strategies for dealing with this, and I think doing it effectively is an important skill to master. It's worth thinking things through before you (indefinite you) open your mouth. In my experience, if you have no other moves than "Because I outrank you, that's why!" you will not be in for a good experience accomplishing whatever mission you're tasked with.

 

[The right Path]

Nah. I'm pretty secure in who and what I am, and where I'm going. I also really, really like my job.



I agree with the way you've stated this. It doesn't seem that the OP understands that this applies in fields other than nursing, though.




Sure thing.



That's very well said. This phenomenon exists in many other fields, as well. There is the stereotypical butter bar Lieutenant arguing with the salty old Platoon Sergeant, the hotshot young MBA butting heads with the factory foreman with thirty years on the line, etc. Everybody has different strategies for dealing with this, and I think doing it effectively is an important skill to master. It's worth thinking things through before you (indefinite you) open your mouth. In my experience, if you have no other moves than "Because I outrank you, that's why!" you will not be in for a good experience accomplishing whatever mission you're tasked with.

Cheers, I like your response!

 

[riverjib]

Not to be nitpickey, but I wish you would not say "tech/nurse." A nurse is a licensed healthcare professional, not a "tech". Where I work most of the nurses have bachelor's degrees in nursing, what we do requires light years more skill, knowledge, and stress tolerance than volunteering as a patient care tech or nurses assistant, or whatever you mean by "tech".

Ok that's all back to discussion.

The "tech" title makes little sense...why should EMTs who take short courses be lumped in with "techs" with bachelor's degrees? And why should a radiology tech be in any way compared with a RN with a bachelor's degree? They're completely different fields with different skill sets.

 

[riverjib]

Um Nurse Jackie is awesome. Anti-heros are infinitely more interesting than their do-gooder counterparts.

And then. um. There's this site called allnurses.com. Yeah. Yall should go there and cry on each other's shoulders.

If you ain't noticed. We's here goin to med school. And a. Don't care all that much. Nurses where I live make 70 G's. Cry me a river about your PR problems.

I posted my response, then started reading back. Nas, you should know that I'm your #1 fan. You always speak the truth, and you always make perfect g***amn sense!

 

[riverjib]

No, they're not even close. Nurses take "introductory" courses. They're essentially courses for non-science majors and they're ridiculously easy. And yes, that includes your anatomy and physiology class.

I'm not even a nurse, and your presumption annoys me. So what if nursing science courses are easier? That's only a fraction of what nurses learn...you're not factoring in their practical classes that spend more time on holistic care than you're likely to learn in med school. If you're a halfway decent medical student, it will only be if you learn from nurses. I've learned more biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, cell bio, and microbio than I will in med school if I get into my current school for medicine, but I would NEVER compare my education to that of a fourth year med student's education...you don't know any curriculum that you haven't completed yourself.

Don't take it too harshly, bud. Nurses have been trying to convince the world that MD's are unnecessary for quite some time now, so I guess I'd like to extend you, and the rest of your "tech" friends, an offer to "join the club".

You're pretty bitter for an MS-1. Why do you spend so much time on pre-allo boards? You joined SDN four years ago and you're a medical student...maybe it's time that you move on?

 

[tncekm]

I'm not even a nurse, and your presumption annoys me.

That's good. You're obviously one of those big hearted "I sympathize for everyone" people... that's nice. But, it's not presumption. So, you should have rephrased. You should have said, "Your statement of fact annoys me because you could have just pretended that the person's statement about their prerequisite nursing courses being comparable to physicians didn't exist. That way nobody gets their feelings hurt."

So what if nursing science courses are easier? That's only a fraction of what nurses learn...you're not factoring in their practical classes that spend more time on holistic care than you're likely to learn in med school.

By practical and holistic, do you mean "nursing" classes? If that's the case, then of course I'm not taking nursing courses. And seriously, can you even describe to me what type of 'holistic education' a nurse may have that would differ from a doctors?

If you're a halfway decent medical student, it will only be if you learn from nurses.

A decent person will learn from everyone. And, just because I know that nursing prerequistes are easy, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to learn from them in the hospital. I just wouldn't learn life sciences from them.

I've learned more biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, cell bio, and microbio than I will in med school if I get into my current school for medicine, but I would NEVER compare my education to that of a fourth year med student's education...you don't know any curriculum that you haven't completed yourself.

Oh, good for you... too bad you just completely contradicted yourself. E.g. "I took more than I'll ever need to know" (i.e. never took the classes I'm comparing to) and then "you don't know any cirriculum that you haven't completed yourself". That, my friend, is a major contradiction. However, luckily for you, I disagree. There is a CLEAR distinction between courses for major and non-majors. I've taken both, as have many people. Courses for non-majors are exceptionally dumbed down. I don't have to take "every" single course they take to know that given the fact a course for non-majors is, by definition, meant for people who are not serious students of that subject. In addition, I did actually take the 1st semester of nursing anatomy / physiology back in the beginning of my college career. It was EEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! And, I onlly made my "easy" that short because anything longer would have required too much holding my fingers in one place--I'm an impatient guy. To top if off, despite what you may think, I have very friendly relationships with nurses, and close family members who are nurses. I know a lot about their education. Their pre-requisite programs are a cake-walk compared to the average simple bio degree, they leave them vastly under-educated in the sciences, and that's okay given their job. However, I do also acknowledge that their 2 yr cirriculum for the RN (or the nursing portion of the BSN) is a relatively intense program. They keep nursing students very busy. But, that isn't to say that they actually have a strong fundamental understanding of the foundational sciences of medicine.

You're pretty bitter for an MS-1. Why do you spend so much time on pre-allo boards? You joined SDN four years ago and you're a medical student...maybe it's time that you move on?

Not bitter at all, actually. Just, after 4 years, I really don't feel like appeasing everyone. Plus, I never know what forum I'm actually in, I just look for new threads/posts that have a topic that interests me. And, when it comes to "Noctors" (nurses who think they're doctors), I get involved because they bother me. Paralegals aren't lawyers, hygienist aren't dentists, and nurses aren't doctors. Of those three, only the latter group is confused and doesn't realize the deficit in their education when compared to a physicians.

 

[mooshika]

Wow. Nursing pre-req's are not easy - where did you get that idea? I was in microbiology, statistics, A&P all with pre-med students as well, plus the others too, chemistry. Plus at a school with a strict "75 is average" policy.

I will admit that many of the basic nursing courses in nursing school were less than challenging - but mostly that was because I had planned on going straight to NP (and did not consider the fact that I would really, actually have to sit through the basic nursing stuff and should have headed straight to medical school in the first place.) I did not enjoy most of my classes at nursing school, although the NP level stuff - several were the exact same classes and text that they used at the medical school including advanced pathophysiology, some of the pharm, and physical assessment and diagnostic reasoning. We used Bates, and my skills and knowledge in those areas at this time rivals any first and second year medical student.

The other reason I don't want to continue NP is that there is far too much time placed on the public health and health population topics - squishy science where people sit around and voice their opinions and argue during class and I find it a waste of time, especially since I have significant on the job experience in those areas and can probably teach some of the courses at this point.

m.

 

[mooshika]

Wow. Nursing pre-req's are not easy - where did you get that idea? I was in microbiology, statistics, A&P all with pre-med students as well, plus the others too, chemistry. Plus at a school with a strict "75 is average" policy.

I will admit that many of the basic nursing courses in nursing school were less than challenging - but mostly that was because I had planned on going straight to NP (and did not consider the fact that I would really, actually have to sit through the basic nursing stuff and should have headed straight to medical school in the first place.) I did not enjoy most of my classes at nursing school, although the NP level stuff - several were the exact same classes and text that they used at the medical school including advanced pathophysiology, some of the pharm, and physical assessment and diagnostic reasoning. We used Bates, and my skills and knowledge in those areas at this time rivals any first and second year medical student.

The other reason I don't want to continue NP is that there is far too much time placed on the public health and health population topics - squishy science where people sit around and voice their opinions and argue during class and I find it a waste of time, especially since I have significant on the job experience in those areas and can probably teach some of the courses at this point.

m.

Which also mean that I have no trouble having a healthy dialogue with any physician if I see something in their orders or practice that I find questionable. I have a very good relationship with the docs I work with, and if I think something was missed or overlooked, you can be sure I will bring it up - but I am professional and it's never a competition that would be just stupid. ALL of us have more to learn from each other, and I try to maintain a "teachable" attitude in all my communications with all staff, and that makes me non-threatening and approachable, and a lot more fun to work with - we try to keep a good attitude.

That might make me a "noctor" but I am the person you want around instead of some squishy nurse who is afraid to make a clinical decision without calling four other people.

And MD's are so essential, as are RN's with doctoral level qualifications. It is about level of education rather than which job is more necessary. Both are, all are necessary.

I will say that overall, nurses are far more familiar with what a doctor's job is that are doctors with what a nurse's job is. And that is something I would change were I in a position to do so. If docs were better informed about what RN's do, even as much as RN's are about the job of the MD, it would improve patient care greatly, and there would be more of the essential teamwork I such a proponent of, and which you see very little of on many hospital floors.

I also think that this disparity is the real reason why you find this kind of weird attitude against what was described sort of obnoxiously as a "noctor". Nursers are very very aware of what the docs are supposed to be doing, or they should be, and it is not always so in the other direction and that needs to change.

 

[tncekm]

Wow. Nursing pre-req's are not easy - where did you get that idea? I was in microbiology, statistics, A&P all with pre-med students as well, plus the others too, chemistry. Plus at a school with a strict "75 is average" policy.

Pre-med's will often take introductory courses, but those aren't their prerequisite courses. There is a big difference between a introduction to chemistry course and a general chemistry course, or introductory organic chemistry course and an actual organic chemistry course--e.g. one of my "premed" organic chem classmates had previously graduated top of her RN program, and she couldn't manage to pass the first semester of ochem. She was super nice, and I feel bad for her, but she didn't ever manage to make it past the "premed" status--the unfortunate fact is that a very small number of the kids who call themselves "premed" at the beginning of their college career are going to make it into medical school.

Quite simply, the nursing pre-reqs are publicly available. It's not a secret. And, myself and many others know that they're easy courses. You simply don't know otherwise because you haven't experienced the other courses. The only course you took that rivals an upper division course for majors is anatomy and physiology, and I personally think the A&P course given at most schools as a pre-nursing/hygiene/etc class is a cake-walk. And yes, I did take a 1 semester of such a course in the very beginning of my college career. There weren't many majors level courses that I took what were easier.

I will admit that many of the basic nursing courses in nursing school were less than challenging - but mostly that was because I had planned on going straight to NP (and did not consider the fact that I would really, actually have to sit through the basic nursing stuff and should have headed straight to medical school in the first place.) I did not enjoy most of my classes at nursing school, although the NP level stuff - several were the exact same classes and text that they used at the medical school including advanced pathophysiology, some of the pharm, and physical assessment and diagnostic reasoning.

Using the same textbook is not the same as having the same course. LOL.

We used Bates, and my skills and knowledge in those areas at this time rivals any first and second year medical student.

Bates knowledge doesn't mean anything without the fundamental knowledge in the sciences. Anybody can read through bates, memorize examination techniques, and then regurgitate findings. Anyway, I'm don't doubt that your knowledge in the contents in Bates will rival any 1st or 2nd years. MS1/2's don't have enough time to put their hearts into Bates. They don't take any fluff classes, except for their clinical course where bates is the primary text. That's the only fluff course, and it gets put on the back-burner as a result. So, the fact that you "rival" their knowledge isn't that impressive because I doubt most medical students in M1/2 give more than an hour a week to Bates. Nobody studies for it.

The other reason I don't want to continue NP is that there is far too much time placed on the public health and health population topics - squishy science where people sit around and voice their opinions and argue during class and I find it a waste of time, especially since I have significant on the job experience in those areas and can probably teach some of the courses at this point.

m.

Well, I appreciate you recognizing this. These sorts of courses should be "continuing education" type courses, not meat and potatoes of any healthcare professional program. Trust me, there are NO courses like that in medical school. And, again, I want to re-emphasize that I don't have a problem with "nurses". They play a very important role in healthcare. We NEED nurses, and nurses benefit patients in many ways. I just have a problem with nurses think they're doctors, and that (especially) INCLUDES DNP/NP's.

 

[tncekm]

Which also mean that I have no trouble having a healthy dialogue with any physician if I see something in their orders or practice that I find questionable. I have a very good relationship with the docs I work with, and if I think something was missed or overlooked, you can be sure I will bring it up - but I am professional and it's never a competition that would be just stupid.

There is nothing wrong with that. Just because you're not a physician, doesn't mean that you won't have meaningful input.

ALL of us have more to learn from each other, and I try to maintain a "teachable" attitude in all my communications with all staff, and that makes me non-threatening and approachable, and a lot more fun to work with - we try to keep a good attitude.

That's great, I'm sure I'd be happy to learn from you in that case.

That might make me a "noctor" but I am the person you want around instead of some squishy nurse who is afraid to make a clinical decision without calling four other people.

Noctors think Doctors are obsolete. In short, if you know your role and understand your limitations in medicine, then you're not a Noctor. But, if a person is to run around telling people (and convincing yourself) that you took equivalent courses to doctors, that you're as well trained as a doctor, etc, etc, that person is both annoying and dangerous.

And MD's are so essential, as are RN's with doctoral level qualifications. It i1s about level of education rather than which job is more necessary. Both are, all are necessary.

DNP's are NOT essential. They're there due to the political might of the nursing unions, and giving them a PhD for what they do is a slap in the face to all real PhD's.

I will say that overall, nurses are far more familiar with what a doctor's job is that are doctors with what a nurse's job is.

How did you come to this conclusion?

And that is something I would change were I in a position to do so. If docs were better informed about what RN's do, even as much as RN's are about the job of the MD, it would improve patient care greatly, and there would be more of the essential teamwork I such a proponent of, and which you see very little of on many hospital floors.

I agree with this. And, there needs to be more interdisciplinary respect for one another.

I also think that this disparity is the real reason why you find this kind of weird attitude against what was described sort of obnoxiously as a "noctor". Nursers are very very aware of what the docs are supposed to be doing, or they should be, and it is not always so in the other direction and that needs to change.

Again, you need to substantiate this. You're either being ignorant, or taking the doctors for stupid if you think that nurses do a better job of picking up on what doctors do than doctors picking up on what nurses do.

 

[riverjib]

Wow, tncekm. Why don't you put that giant chip on your shoulder to better use than nitpicking in pre-med forums? I doubt that anyone here is even willing to read through your mindless rants. But if you really believe that going off on everyone who posts an opinion here is the best use of your time, who am I to judge?

 

[tncekm]

Wow, tncekm. Why don't you put that giant chip on your shoulder to better use than nitpicking in pre-med forums? I doubt that anyone here is even willing to read through your mindless rants. But if you really believe that going off on everyone who posts an opinion here is the best use of your time, who am I to judge?

No, I'm not going to get rid of the chip and my shoulder, and I'm not going to shut up. That's precisely the problem with so many people, and precisely the problem with western society today. People simply just let problems linger because they're afraid to disturb their lives in the slightest. Avoiding problems is why our so-called political representatives have hijacked our democratic-republic and turned it into an oligarchy. Avoiding problems is why political correctness has paralyzed our education system, interracial relations, and rewarded laziness and under-achievement.

Feel free to continue being part of the problem. But, don't expect me to "fall in line" with the rest of you. I've got a problem with the nursing unions overstepping their bounds, so I'm going to be involved with that area. Part of the nursing union propaganda intended to convince everybody that physicians are replaceable (by nurses, of course) by the nurses is to first convince the nurses themselves. This is done, in a typical big-union way, by diminishing the perceived difference in their education from that of a physicians and effectively convince the nurses themselves that they are unfortunate victims of an unfair system which doesn't appreciate their contribution. And, on, and on, and on ad infinitum. We see the result of it here in these silly threads. And, as a result, I'm here posting.

Oh, and I'm glad to see that you've resorted to calling my posts "mindless". It's very telling.

 

[riverjib]

No, I'm not going to get rid of the chip and my shoulder, and I'm not going to shut up. That's precisely the problem with so many people, and precisely the problem with western society today. People simply just let problems linger because they're afraid to disturb their lives in the slightest. Avoiding problems is why our so-called political representatives have hijacked our democratic-republic and turned it into an oligarchy. Avoiding problems is why political correctness has paralyzed our education system, interracial relations, and rewarded laziness and under-achievement.

Feel free to continue being part of the problem. But, don't expect me to "fall in line" with the rest of you. I've got a problem with the nursing unions overstepping their bounds, so I'm going to be involved with that area. Part of the nursing union propaganda intended to convince everybody that physicians are replaceable (by nurses, of course) by the nurses is to first convince the nurses themselves. This is done, in a typical big-union way, by diminishing the perceived difference in their education from that of a physicians and the nurses themselves are unfortunate victims of an unfair system which doesn't appreciate their contribution. And, on, and on, and on ad infinitum. We see the result of it here in these silly threads. And, as a result, I'm here.

Oh, and I'm glad to see that you've resorted to calling my posts "mindless". It's very telling.

You're going to be a FANTASTIC physician! Get some perspective. Or get a life. Or keep posting in pre-med forums, if that's what you feel compelled to do on a Friday night when you could be studying or getting to know your classmates. While I can't understand what drives you to be so angry, you are definitely entertaining

 

[tncekm]

You're going to be a FANTASTIC physician! Get some perspective. Or get a life. Or keep posting in pre-med forums, if that's what you feel compelled to do on a Friday night when you could be studying or getting to know your classmates. While I can't understand what drives you to be so angry, you are definitely entertaining

Ha, ha... you know nothing about me. I will be a good physician, and I get along wonderfully with good nurses. In fact, I tend to be one of those people all the patients just love because I'm always so nice and have a smile on my face all the time. And, guess what? I'm not faking it!

Now, this may be the biggest surprise of all to you: despite your straw man, my conversation on this thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with how good of a physician I'll be or with how my personal and interpersonal relationships play out. I can be a nice, respectful, humble person and a good physician and still manage to be passionately pissed off about topics that impact my life.

But, if it makes you feel good about yourself to think that I suck, go right ahead.

 

[riverjib]

LOL! I don't need your life story, but it's cute that you are so defensive. What great topic was debated here that made you so upset that you felt the need to fall upon the sword to valiantly defend your position? I thought this was a fairly innocent post about how nurses deserved to be treated differently from technicians who took a short course in taking vitals. Correct me if I'm wrong. Though I'm sure you'll figure out a way to teach me a lesson, regardless of the issue at hand

 

[Savage Henry]

. Or keep posting in pre-med forums, if that's what you feel compelled to do on a Friday night when you could be studying

Hello Kettle, My name is Nurse Pot. I see that you are awfully dark - not quite black. Perhaps I should refer to you as sable or ebony - or even raven!

Riverjib, you appear to be somewhat brainwashed. None of what tncekm posted was offensive. He/she seems to have a pretty good idea about what he/she speaks. You merely came back with a bunch of insults.

Poor form, my dear.

 

[tncekm]

LOL! I don't need your life story, but it's cute that you are so defensive. What great topic was debated here that made you so upset that you felt the need to fall upon the sword to valiantly defend your position? I thought this was a fairly innocent post about how nurses deserved to be treated differently from technicians who took a short course in taking vitals. Correct me if I'm wrong. Though I'm sure you'll figure out a way to teach me a lesson, regardless of the issue at hand

Self-aggrandized nurse trashed Savage Henry because he was a "tech". --> I made a joke about nurses thinking MD's were useless, too --> someone claims nursing pre-req's are the same as med --> I say "no" --> you whined about what I said and started contradicting yourself and then talking about how nurses get a better 'holistic' education that physicians--> yadda yadda yadda --> here, now

Really, I simply stepped in to correct someone who claimed a nursing union inspired claim about nursing education and it's relative equivalence to medical student education. Then you got all pissy, and I responded. Unfortunately, the current state of human technology is such that we're limited to transferring only digital data. otherwise, I would have emailed you a tampon and midol and just gotten it over with a while back. So, you can thank the primitiveness of our technology for this discussion being dragged out longer than necessary.

 

[riverjib]

Hello Kettle, My name is Nurse Pot. I see that you are awfully dark - not quite black. Perhaps I should refer to you as sable or ebony - or even raven!

Riverjib, you appear to be somewhat brainwashed. None of what tncekm posted was offensive. He/she seems to have a pretty good idea about what he/she speaks. You merely came back with a bunch of insults.

Poor form, my dear.

LOL! Not really. I'm a pre-med responding in a pre-med forum. I don't plan to revisit this forum as a medical student.

There is a huge difference between an EMT with a certificate from a 2-3 month course and a nurse. However, there is little distinction between an RN with a bachelor's degree and a technician with a bachelor's degree.

I didn't see whatever post the OP made that bashed technicians as a group. That clearly would have changed my response to the OP, but nobody mentioned it until now. If he/she meant that RNs are somehow superior to radiology techs, that's purely ridiculous. But that wasn't what was insinuated. I only read this board once in a while, and if this was a continuation of some silly p***ing match between people holding equivalent degrees, I missed that since nobody brought it up. All I said was that RNs with bachelor's degrees and experience know more than the average tech who takes a short course in a very limited field.

 

[riverjib]

Self-aggrandized nurse trashed Savage Henry because he was a "tech". --> I made a joke about nurses thinking MD's were useless, too --> someone claims nursing pre-req's are the same as med --> I say "no" --> you whined about what I said and started contradicting yourself and then talking about how nurses get a better 'holistic' education that physicians--> yadda yadda yadda --> here, now

Really, I simply stepped in to correct someone who claimed a nursing union inspired claim about nursing education and it's relative equivalence to medical student education. Then you got all pissy, and I responded. Unfortunately, the current state of human technology is such that we're limited to transferring only digital data. otherwise, I would have emailed you a tampon and midol and just gotten it over with a while back. So, you can thank the primitiveness of our technology for this discussion being dragged out longer than necessary.

Okay, fair enough, tcnekm. No need for childish and misogynistic remarks. I would have agreed with you if you had simply explained that this nurse was bashing a radiology tech. If you had read my response, you wouldn't have gotten so pissy, either:

"The "tech" title makes little sense...why should EMTs who take short courses be lumped in with "techs" with bachelor's degrees? And why should a radiology tech be in any way compared with a RN with a bachelor's degree? They're completely different fields with different skill sets."

If I had known this nurse was somehow putting herself/himself above technicians with bachelor's degrees, I would have responded differently. Clearly, that's an unfair remark, and if that's the case, the OP has invited such criticism. But if you read through this thread, that fact is not well-established, and I was under the impression that people were making qualitative comparisons between nurses and pretty much anyone who holds any certification in health care. I was once a surgical tech (associates-level degree) and I never would have compared my knowledge with that of an RN.

However, I have worked with plenty of self-aggrandizing "noctors" as you put it, and I know exactly what you're talking about--some nurses believe they know more than physicians. They're wrong. Good nurses aren't like this. I was only defending them. I was misinformed about the OP's intentions here, but I hope you can see why that was the case.

 

[Savage Henry]

So, you can thank the primitiveness of our technology for this discussion being dragged out longer than necessary.

Dude, if this medical school thing doesn't work out for me, I'm going to invent a device that allows me to taser people in the genitalia over the internet.

 

[tncekm]

Okay, fair enough, tcnekm. No need for childish and misogynistic remarks.

Very true. But, there is no need for candy either. It's just tasty to eat. ^_^

I would have agreed with you if you had simply explained that this nurse was bashing a radiology tech. If you had read my response, you wouldn't have gotten so pissy, either:

"The "tech" title makes little sense...why should EMTs who take short courses be lumped in with "techs" with bachelor's degrees? And why should a radiology tech be in any way compared with a RN with a bachelor's degree? They're completely different fields with different skill sets."

I didn't even read what you said prior to responding to my post, and I wasn't concerned with it because your post was responding to statements I made. I don't have any disagreement with what you said.

However, I have worked with plenty of self-aggrandizing "noctors" as you put it, and I know exactly what you're talking about--some nurses believe they know more than physicians. They're wrong. Good nurses aren't like this. I was only defending them. I was misinformed about the OP's intentions here, but I hope you can see why that was the case.

Honestly, I don't even know if it was the OP I was responding to. It was just some nurse on the thread. All I did was select "New Posts", read a thread and something pushed a button of mine and I responded. I wasn't hanging out in the "pre-med forum" for any specific reason other than a thread title in the "New Posts" category caught my attention.

I'm sure you'e a good guy and all. Honestly, I'm sure I'd like you. So, no harm no foul. I apologize if I was a douche-bag

 

[AbbyNormal]

Dude, if this medical school thing doesn't work out for me, I'm going to invent a device that allows me to taser people in the genitalia over the internet.

I would like to buy two please.

 

[tncekm]

Dude, if this medical school thing doesn't work out for me, I'm going to invent a device that allows me to taser people in the genitalia over the internet.

Ha, ha. I'd pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for that as long as it allowed me to hack their webcams so I could see the expressions on their faces when they randomly get shocked in the testicles. ROFL. That idea makes pee myself as I giggle like a little school girl.

 

[riverjib]

Very true. But, there is no need for candy either. It's just tasty to eat. ^_^

I didn't even read what you said prior to responding to my post, and I wasn't concerned with it because your post was responding to statements I made. I don't have any disagreement with what you said.


Honestly, I don't even know if it was the OP I was responding to. It was just some nurse on the thread. All I did was select "New Posts", read a thread and something pushed a button of mine and I responded. I wasn't hanging out in the "pre-med forum" for any specific reason other than a thread title in the "New Posts" category caught my attention.

I'm sure you'e a good guy and all. Honestly, I'm sure I'd like you. So, no harm no foul. I apologize if I was a douche-bag

Me too. Now that I bothered to read more carefully, I realize you were right and I was ill-informed in my reactionary posts. You and I would probably get along really well in reality. I apologize for my own "douche-baggery." Now that it's in context, I totally agree with your position about nurses who think they're doctors.

Great nurses have taught me things I might not even learn in med school or early residency, and how to spot really awesome doctors. But there are some obnoxious ones who are either bitter or downright dangerous (I had one put heparin instead of lidocaine on my surgical field then get indignant when I asked her to show me what she put there, which is standard protocol). There are jerks at every level in every field. I'm not even sure the OP was a jerk, since I don't know what happened prior to this.

Whatever. I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry that I behaved badly. Friends?

 

[tncekm]

Whatever. I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry that I behaved badly. Friends?

Ha, ha... yeah.

 

[jl lin]

That's good. You're obviously one of those big hearted "I sympathize for everyone" people... that's nice. But, it's not presumption. So, you should have rephrased. You should have said, "Your statement of fact annoys me because you could have just pretended that the person's statement about their prerequisite nursing courses being comparable to physicians didn't exist. That way nobody gets their feelings hurt."


By practical and holistic, do you mean "nursing" classes? If that's the case, then of course I'm not taking nursing courses. And seriously, can you even describe to me what type of 'holistic education' a nurse may have that would differ from a doctors?

A decent person will learn from everyone. And, just because I know that nursing prerequistes are easy, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to learn from them in the hospital. I just wouldn't learn life sciences from them.


Oh, good for you... too bad you just completely contradicted yourself. E.g. "I took more than I'll ever need to know" (i.e. never took the classes I'm comparing to) and then "you don't know any cirriculum that you haven't completed yourself". That, my friend, is a major contradiction. However, luckily for you, I disagree. There is a CLEAR distinction between courses for major and non-majors. I've taken both, as have many people. Courses for non-majors are exceptionally dumbed down. I don't have to take "every" single course they take to know that given the fact a course for non-majors is, by definition, meant for people who are not serious students of that subject. In addition, I did actually take the 1st semester of nursing anatomy / physiology back in the beginning of my college career. It was EEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! And, I onlly made my "easy" that short because anything longer would have required too much holding my fingers in one place--I'm an impatient guy. To top if off, despite what you may think, I have very friendly relationships with nurses, and close family members who are nurses. I know a lot about their education. Their pre-requisite programs are a cake-walk compared to the average simple bio degree, they leave them vastly under-educated in the sciences, and that's okay given their job. However, I do also acknowledge that their 2 yr cirriculum for the RN (or the nursing portion of the BSN) is a relatively intense program. They keep nursing students very busy. But, that isn't to say that they actually have a strong fundamental understanding of the foundational sciences of medicine.


Not bitter at all, actually. Just, after 4 years, I really don't feel like appeasing everyone. Plus, I never know what forum I'm actually in, I just look for new threads/posts that have a topic that interests me. And, when it comes to "Noctors" (nurses who think they're doctors), I get involved because they bother me. Paralegals aren't lawyers, hygienist aren't dentists, and nurses aren't doctors. Of those three, only the latter group is confused and doesn't realize the deficit in their education when compared to a physicians.

All the natural science courses I took for my nursing program are the same required for pre-med or other majors of the natural sciences. The Gen bios and chems are the exact same deal and are transferable as such. The were specific to Biology department or Chemistry department. Microbiology and A&P courses fell under the department of biology and were not specific to nursing, period. The were the same 4 credit each w/ lab courses that the others took. This was the way my program rolled. Good thing too.

If I had it my way, all such programs would require the same natural science courses regardless of degree major--same thing for mathematics.

Just b/c you know of a few nursing programs that may run the way you describe does NOT mean they all roll that way. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is still ignorance.


And who is saying nurses are physicians. No one said that. I didn't see one nurse say or imply any such thing. You have read into things I think b/c you don't understand the perspectives.

Whatever.