jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Okay, fair enough, tcnekm. No need for childish and misogynistic remarks. I would have agreed with you if you had simply explained that this nurse was bashing a radiology tech. If you had read my response, you wouldn't have gotten so pissy, either:

"The "tech" title makes little sense...why should EMTs who take short courses be lumped in with "techs" with bachelor's degrees? And why should a radiology tech be in any way compared with a RN with a bachelor's degree? They're completely different fields with different skill sets."

If I had known this nurse was somehow putting herself/himself above technicians with bachelor's degrees, I would have responded differently. Clearly, that's an unfair remark, and if that's the case, the OP has invited such criticism. But if you read through this thread, that fact is not well-established, and I was under the impression that people were making qualitative comparisons between nurses and pretty much anyone who holds any certification in health care. I was once a surgical tech (associates-level degree) and I never would have compared my knowledge with that of an RN.

However, I have worked with plenty of self-aggrandizing "noctors" as you put it, and I know exactly what you're talking about--some nurses believe they know more than physicians. They're wrong. Good nurses aren't like this. I was only defending them. I was misinformed about the OP's intentions here, but I hope you can see why that was the case.


I don't think I know more or am more well-educated than physicians.

I will say that if I have worked with certain conditions overtime said resident or even fellow or attending may not see how on target another nurse or I am, simply b/c they may not have worked and seen the presentation enough--or they are NOT looking at the patients individually.

Having said that, I have gotten thank yous from the humble physicians that give a rat's butt about the patients. The ones that are insecure and care more about their egos--not so much--but they were sure as hell glad someone help bring whatever to the light of days, such that it helped protect them and their licenses.

You know what. Decent, humble people throughout these fields will have the main function of putting the patient first.

Those that lean more toward douchebaggery, as you may call it, don't--or they say they might, but their overall attitude and behavior will eventually show they are full of it.

I have witnessed more than once ego as a factor that has lead to patient suffering or demise. You can take that sad truth to the bank.

You know that old saying, "Pride comes before a fall?" Well, I have seen a number of fallen, and they happened to have been patients. Usually others if they are favored get protected to some point--eh, but not always.

I have zero tolerance for ego ****e when it comes to patients and their needs, conditions, and outcomes.

No one talks about these tragedies, b/c somehow they are covered up often enough.

Instead they count all the medically related mistakes in hospitals. I can deal with a reasonable and honest mistake, especially if we can learn from it. No one is beyond the potential for error.

I can't tolerate foolish, lazy, or idiotic mistakes that have preventable systems in place--and I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TOLERATE MISTAKES THAT COME FROM PRIDE AND EGO!!!! These kinds of errors are the worst. When you see them and know they were preventable--if only someone hasn't the dug in their heels--prideful, stubborn errors, that is the kind of thing you lose sleep over. I know that I can sleep at night as far as I am concerned; but I lose sleep over pts suffering and dying needlessly b/c of such things. And this is why though I believe in some tort reform, I also think people should have the right to sue when there is gross negligence and such.
 

Nasrudin

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All the natural science courses I took for my nursing program are the same required for pre-med or other majors of the natural sciences. The Gen bios and chems are the exact same deal and are transferable as such. The were specific to Biology department or Chemistry department. Microbiology and A&P courses fell under the department of biology and were not specific to nursing, period. The were the same 4 credit each w/ lab courses that the others took. This was the way my program rolled. Good thing too.

If I had it my way, all such programs would require the same natural science courses regardless of degree major--same thing for mathematics.

Just b/c you know of a few nursing programs that may run the way you describe does NOT mean they all roll that way. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is still ignorance.


And who is saying nurses are physicians. No one said that. I didn't see one nurse say or imply any such thing. You have read into things I think b/c you don't understand the perspectives.

Whatever.
I think there's no way around it. Some things are harder than others. Electrical Engineering is workable for a only a few people out of a bunch. And so on.

A pre-med weed out situation is generally more academically difficult. Than it's nursing equivalent. Generally. You can like or dislike that general trend. But your sentiments don't alter its frequency.

Now for me. Schedule-wise a nursing program would've been difficult to manage given it's intensive clinical component. In conflict with my work schedule. So maybe difficulty is a variable concept.

Fact. The sheer academic nuts and bolts of science are more difficult to master with your mind against sharper competition for the gpa cuts of medical school.

I'm not picking arguments with you. But your contentions are erroneous in this case.
 

RogueUnicorn

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this whole discussion is ridiculous. the concept of difficult is entirely subjective.
 

riverjib

5+ Year Member
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I don't think I know more or am more well-educated than physicians.

Those that lean more toward douchebaggery, as you may call it, don't--or they say they might, but their overall attitude and behavior will eventually show they are full of it.

I have witnessed more than once ego as a factor that has lead to patient suffering or demise. You can take that sad truth to the bank.

You know that old saying, "Pride comes before a fall?" Well, I have seen a number of fallen, and they happened to have been patients. Usually others if they are favored get protected to some point--eh, but not always.

I have zero tolerance for ego ****e when it comes to patients and their needs, conditions, and outcomes.

No one talks about these tragedies, b/c somehow they are covered up often enough.

Instead they count all the medically related mistakes in hospitals. I can deal with a reasonable and honest mistake, especially if we can learn from it. No one is beyond the potential for error.

I can't tolerate foolish, lazy, or idiotic mistakes that have preventable systems in place--and I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TOLERATE MISTAKES THAT COME FROM PRIDE AND EGO!!!! These kinds of errors are the worst. When you see them and know they were preventable--if only someone hasn't the dug in their heels--prideful, stubborn errors, that is the kind of thing you lose sleep over. I know that I can sleep at night as far as I am concerned; but I lose sleep over pts suffering and dying needlessly b/c of such things. And this is why though I believe in some tort reform, I also think people should have the right to sue when there is gross negligence and such.
I'm not sure if your remarks are directed at me, but I'm assuming that's the case because you quoted something I said. The only reason I responded in the first place was to defend nurses, because I thought the OP was annoyed that pre-medical students were basically saying the nurses knew no more than a technician or PCA who had taken a short course. My last response to somebody on this forum was one in which I admitted I hadn't read the whole thread, or whatever thread preceded this one. I'm really not sure anymore who has been hurling insults at whom, but I think the whole thing got completely out of hand.

I did (in the end) agree that there are some nurses who are prideful and dangerous, and others who are amazing and keep prideful physicians from harming patients.

In response to your statements, there is incompetence and negligence at EVERY level of health care, and it usually stems from either laziness or unwillingness of some HCP to admit what they don't know, and mistakes ensue. That's why medical schools, nursing schools, and PA schools are looking for candidates with character and integrity in addition to academic ability.

As for the most recent statements, Nasrudin pointed out correctly that some programs are more difficult than others. And bleargh was right that difficulty is completely subjective. My brother-in-law played video games and didn't work very hard to graduate with a 3.94 in chemical engineering. He has an unusual aptitude for mathematics and physical sciences. But he would have struggled with biochemistry, and he'd have a harder time in med school (by his own assessment) than he is having in an Ivy League PhD program in engineering because he hasn't developed the study skills necessary to assimilate large quantities of information...though he has no problem with the conceptual work in his program, and is graduating early while raising two baby girls. He also would have had a hard time achieving similar grades in an English or sociology major. I, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be able to handle an 18 credit course load in engineering and achieve better than a 3.0, but I can manage 18+ credits in biological sciences while working, doing research, and volunteering. We all have different innate skills, and it only matters that we find our niche.

There's a reason med schools don't care what you choose for a major, as long as you do well in pre-reqs, the MCAT, and whatever major you choose. Medicine is an incredibly diverse field, and it really does take all kinds to achieve a broad spectrum of talented physicians.
 

blaithnaid

lady clairol
Jan 7, 2010
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so essential, as are RN's with doctoral level qualifications. It is about level of education rather than which job is more necessary. Both are, all are necessary.
FALSE!

jesus what the fck is going on here
Pissing contest. Nurses spray, get your mask on.
 

CATrtb

5+ Year Member
Sep 1, 2009
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Really? Wow, you must be that guy I always have to keep a super sharp eye on so you don't extubate my patients or pull their central lines.

And you must be the nurse that is sitting there, with your super sharp eye staring at me while I lift your 400lb, contracted, full-contact-precaution, combative patient for an acute abd series with the spaghettified, 30 way-to-short lines and ET tube that are secured by 4 day old crusty paper tape.
 

The right Path

Goodbye Cherry Ames
Dec 10, 2009
540
2
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And you must be the nurse that is sitting there, with your super sharp eye staring at me while I lift your 400lb, contracted, full-contact-precaution, combative patient for an acute abd series with the spaghettified, 30 way-to-short lines and ET tube that are secured by 4 day old crusty paper tape.
Yeah, that would never happen. If I caught you even trying to accomplish that ridiculously unsafe task without me, I'd have you 86'd from my unit.

I don't let clowns injure my patients. They are my absolute priority, not just gettin' er done and moving on to the next one.
 

mooshika

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Jan 13, 2010
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You sound like a brat, but really it's just ignorance. Are you aware of the kind of research that is done by RN's with PhD's? I'm not talking about direct patient care doctoral level DNP stuff...

Well, I'm not really interested in doing that myself, that's why I'm not involved. And I will also say that it is true that there are more nurses than not who are content with non-specialized or advanced certification and simply happy to perform bedside patient care and medication administration as the limit of their careers. These are people who will willingly tell you they have no interest in being a doctor, a NP or anything else that requires either more school, more science, research, or more responsibility. We need people like this.

I do a lot of tutoring right now in my in-between stage and my PRN RN/therapist job at the psych ED. I tutor o-chem, gen-chem and physics, and often I go to my PRN job right after tutoring and my RN co-worker will ask what I did that day and I tell them about the tutoring and they say "Ugh that's awful! How can you stand that stuff?" It's kind of funny... but that's just personality, interest, talent, all that stuff...

My initial statement was that RN's know a lot more about what the MD's job is than the MDs know about the nursing job. I don't mean that they can DO IT BETTER. It is a matter of practicality. And my point was that if MD's learned more about nursing it would help make their jobs easier, and the patients would benefit greatly.

Also - I love you Jl Lin! Her fierce advocacy for the patient is another element that is stressed, stressed and stressed again in RN school, and not as much as in MD school. Bottom line is, RN is patient advocate, and that gives us the right to question anything a doc does if we believe it will put the patient in harms way. Her attitude of patient advocacy will make her a fantastic doctor, and I hope her future employers will see that in her. If I were to write a letter of recommendation, and saw this sort of background - an RN with advanced certification in critical care nursing with an MD who wears patient advocacy on her sleeve, she would be my first choice for any specialty.

I also feel the same way and hope my ADCOMs will see the same in me.

FALSE!


Pissing contest. Nurses spray, get your mask on.
 

jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,098
1,261
I think there's no way around it. Some things are harder than others. Electrical Engineering is workable for a only a few people out of a bunch. And so on.

A pre-med weed out situation is generally more academically difficult. Than it's nursing equivalent. Generally. You can like or dislike that general trend. But your sentiments don't alter its frequency.

Now for me. Schedule-wise a nursing program would've been difficult to manage given it's intensive clinical component. In conflict with my work schedule. So maybe difficulty is a variable concept.

Fact. The sheer academic nuts and bolts of science are more difficult to master with your mind against sharper competition for the gpa cuts of medical school.

I'm not picking arguments with you. But your contentions are erroneous in this case.


OKaaaaaaaaaaaay? I know what I am referring to, but I'm not clear at all on what you are talking about.

Who is saying anything about sharper competition for gpa and what does this have to do with the original topic OR any of its tangents???
 
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jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,098
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I'm not sure if your remarks are directed at me, but I'm assuming that's the case because you quoted something I said. The only reason I responded in the first place was to defend nurses, because I thought the OP was annoyed that pre-medical students were basically saying the nurses knew no more than a technician or PCA who had taken a short course. My last response to somebody on this forum was one in which I admitted I hadn't read the whole thread, or whatever thread preceded this one. I'm really not sure anymore who has been hurling insults at whom, but I think the whole thing got completely out of hand.

I did (in the end) agree that there are some nurses who are prideful and dangerous, and others who are amazing and keep prideful physicians from harming patients.

In response to your statements, there is incompetence and negligence at EVERY level of health care, and it usually stems from either laziness or unwillingness of some HCP to admit what they don't know, and mistakes ensue. That's why medical schools, nursing schools, and PA schools are looking for candidates with character and integrity in addition to academic ability.

As for the most recent statements, Nasrudin pointed out correctly that some programs are more difficult than others. And bleargh was right that difficulty is completely subjective. My brother-in-law played video games and didn't work very hard to graduate with a 3.94 in chemical engineering. He has an unusual aptitude for mathematics and physical sciences. But he would have struggled with biochemistry, and he'd have a harder time in med school (by his own assessment) than he is having in an Ivy League PhD program in engineering because he hasn't developed the study skills necessary to assimilate large quantities of information...though he has no problem with the conceptual work in his program, and is graduating early while raising two baby girls. He also would have had a hard time achieving similar grades in an English or sociology major. I, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be able to handle an 18 credit course load in engineering and achieve better than a 3.0, but I can manage 18+ credits in biological sciences while working, doing research, and volunteering. We all have different innate skills, and it only matters that we find our niche.

There's a reason med schools don't care what you choose for a major, as long as you do well in pre-reqs, the MCAT, and whatever major you choose. Medicine is an incredibly diverse field, and it really does take all kinds to achieve a broad spectrum of talented physicians.

What I said was directed toward a tangent in this discussion and not to a particular person. Mostly I don't know anyone here, so that seems illogical and ridiculous to me.

It doesn't matter in terms of my points what your GPA is and what you think you know. My contention is that it's all about the patient, period. To me, that's where the rubber meets the road, regardless of role or title. Wise people in this field work together for the sake of the pt, regardless of their title. If that means you are in position of elevated hierarchy, great whatever. But don't let that get in the way of focusing on what's most important. Therefore, be openminded and put ego issues and such somewhere else. They don't belong as control factors when dealing with people's lives and quality of lives or respect for them as patients or their families as well.

And this goes for EVERYONE--nurses, docs, lab techs, rad tech, RTs, pharmacists, hazmat people, dietary, house keeping. . .it doesn't matter. The issue is who then what, where "who" is the patient and "what" directly relates to the patient and family. If we forget the focus, our purpose there is nothing. Working in these roles is about much more than 'having a name and a number' so to speak. I don't want to ever forget that it's about them first and foremost. Once you lose that, you just taking up space, oxygen, making some noise, and drawing a paycheck. Yes you have to maintain professional boundaries, but to me I don't ever want to forget what it's like to be a patient--or a mom with a critically ill child, or a daughter with a terminal parent or spouse or S.O. I think it is amazing how people can remove themselves so much from something b/c of a role. They seem to forget that they are made of the same stuff everyone else is; and that their illnesses and deaths or even going through these things with a loved one is inevitable. Life is this fragile thread for all of us. And the process of living and suffering or dying is hard. The person in need is at the core of all of what we do. Without that, it's just best to stay in a research lab IMHO.

I have seen a lot of ego stuff from all areas, as riverjib has stated. As I said, reasonable mistakes are one thing. Mistakes and suffering brought on from ego-based nonsense, well, it's a special kind of intolerable offense. It means a core narcissism got in the way of doing the right thing or what would have been the best thing for the patient. To this day I cannot fully describe the chronic, ongoing nausea and jaded sense of things that this kind of egomania produces. It's something one does not ever really get over--at least I hope not.

It is not about some abstract, nebulous ideal. And yes I realize hospitals and such need to make money as well. I'm not against reasonable use of free enterprise-especially when healthy competition improves services to patients. You can love the science--and also the applied science, which, like it or not, is a HUGE part of medicine and nursing for that matter. (EBP has it's place, but it will and never can be the whole deal, for a number of important reasons.)

Thing is, clnical medicine and nursing and healthcare that is worth anything has to see the pt as primary in importance over things like pride and money--but especially pride. Pride is one of those perverse, inane, wasted, emotionally driven conditions that only hurts people, which includes the individual that has nailed his soul and whole being to it.



A number of other things mixed in and confused into this discussion (and the spin-offs), well, I think they are way off track. Again I don't see any RN here saying they think they have more overall education that most physicians. Please. But we are all there to observe, learn, use critical thinking and so forth--FOR THE SAKE OF THE PATIENT. A "Dr. House" view of nursing is completely idiotic and many wise physicians know it--and so do many patients--especially those that have been down the hard road of surgeries and illnesses before--or have been there with their kids or family members. Get really sick, and you will see the value of excellent and smart nursing will not escape you if you are an honest and fair-minded person. But it's still important to see that nursing has it's art and science and medicine has it's art and science, and sometimes things overlap. In the end, we are all there, at least in theory and principle, to help the patients/clients to the best of our roles and abilities.

I can assure you that whether as a nurse, charge nurse, or supervisor, I have never looked down on anyone, and I employ each person as my teacher; and I respect what each person does and who they are individually as a person.

I mean dissing and dismissing nurses like this is like saying all physicians look down on all others in the healthcare setting as well. They don't if they are wise. If they gained a good amount of wisdom, they are humble, decent human beings, regardless of their roles.


Nas, no disrespect at all, but often enough I only get maybe 50% of what I think you are trying to communicate--and I'm pretty right-brained. *shrug*
 
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jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,098
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Yeah, that would never happen. If I caught you even trying to accomplish that ridiculously unsafe task without me, I'd have you 86'd from my unit.

I don't let clowns injure my patients. They are my absolute priority, not just gettin' er done and moving on to the next one.

Hooyah TRP! I love ya. Once again, right on it!:highfive:
 

jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,098
1,261
You sound like a brat, but really it's just ignorance. Are you aware of the kind of research that is done by RN's with PhD's? I'm not talking about direct patient care doctoral level DNP stuff...

Well, I'm not really interested in doing that myself, that's why I'm not involved. And I will also say that it is true that there are more nurses than not who are content with non-specialized or advanced certification and simply happy to perform bedside patient care and medication administration as the limit of their careers. These are people who will willingly tell you they have no interest in being a doctor, a NP or anything else that requires either more school, more science, research, or more responsibility. We need people like this.

I do a lot of tutoring right now in my in-between stage and my PRN RN/therapist job at the psych ED. I tutor o-chem, gen-chem and physics, and often I go to my PRN job right after tutoring and my RN co-worker will ask what I did that day and I tell them about the tutoring and they say "Ugh that's awful! How can you stand that stuff?" It's kind of funny... but that's just personality, interest, talent, all that stuff...

My initial statement was that RN's know a lot more about what the MD's job is than the MDs know about the nursing job. I don't mean that they can DO IT BETTER. It is a matter of practicality. And my point was that if MD's learned more about nursing it would help make their jobs easier, and the patients would benefit greatly.

Also - I love you Jl Lin! Her fierce advocacy for the patient is another element that is stressed, stressed and stressed again in RN school, and not as much as in MD school. Bottom line is, RN is patient advocate, and that gives us the right to question anything a doc does if we believe it will put the patient in harms way. Her attitude of patient advocacy will make her a fantastic doctor, and I hope her future employers will see that in her. If I were to write a letter of recommendation, and saw this sort of background - an RN with advanced certification in critical care nursing with an MD who wears patient advocacy on her sleeve, she would be my first choice for any specialty.

I also feel the same way and hope my ADCOMs will see the same in me.
Kudos to you too there mooshika! And they say nurses don't stick together--well sometimes this is true; but apparently not so here.

I think most nurses do truly care first and foremost for their patients. And I can say that most of the physicians I've been privileged to work with are the same. And it's major great when we all work together.

People seem to forget that regardless of roles, the bottom line is that we are all humans, people, working to help other people, period! :)
 

Nasrudin

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Kudos to you too there mooshika! And they say nurses don't stick together--well sometimes this is true; but apparently not so here.

I think most nurses do truly care first and foremost for their patients. And I can say that most of the physicians I've been privileged to work with are the same. And it's major great when we all work together.

People seem to forget that regardless of roles, the bottom line is that we are all humans, people, working to help other people, period! :)
Yeah. I can dig it. Makin love not war baby. Makin sweet nasty.....hh.......t....blip......static.......distortion.....


That's what it's like with us hominids. We may be one nation under a groove. But not everybody's listenin to the same station. What can you do.
 

blaithnaid

lady clairol
Jan 7, 2010
182
0
Status
You sound like a brat, but really it's just ignorance. Are you aware of the kind of research that is done by RN's with PhD's? I'm not talking about direct patient care doctoral level DNP stuff...
pls cite something that isn't omgnurziesrtehbesztesevar. tyia.

lol haven't been called a brat since sunday school x many years ago
 

blaithnaid

lady clairol
Jan 7, 2010
182
0
Status
You mean like something from the Taco Bell menu? :idea: :D



Hmmm. . .:rolleyes:
Mmm, don't tempt me.

Word of warning to the wise, though. A combo KFC and Taco Bell is a bad, bad place. :(
 

jl lin

7+ Year Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,098
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Yeah. I can dig it. Makin love not war baby. Makin sweet nasty.....hh.......t....blip......static.......distortion.....


That's what it's like with us hominids. We may be one nation under a groove. But not everybody's listenin to the same station. What can you do.

See now that I get? It's like sometimes your message comes in, and other times it's like you are saying, "Can ya hear me now?" . . . Fizzzz, crackle, frizzzz. . . . And I'm like, "Where'd he go?" :)
 

The right Path

Goodbye Cherry Ames
Dec 10, 2009
540
2
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Hooyah TRP! I love ya. Once again, right on it!:highfive:
Seriously, I'm not hearing a load of sass after pulling up, rolling over, holding c-spine, and wrestling deadweight people q 2h and prn for 12 hours.

It's extra irritating after wrestling with the m'f'ing Rotorest bed. I actually prefer the Rotoprone, and at least that is a mandatory 1:1.
 

NTF

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Jul 1, 2008
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Allow me to sum up:

There are good nurses. There are bad nurses.
There are good docs. There are bad docs.
There are good (fill in healthcare position here). There are bad (fill in healthcare position here).

Good nurses protect patients from bad docs.
Good nurses protect patients from bad nurses
Good nurses protect patients from bad (fill in ANYTHING here) if they can help it.

Good docs protect patients from bad nurses.
Good docs protect patients from bad docs.
Good docs protect patients from bad (fill in ANYTHING here) if they can help it.

Good and Bad are states of "doing" not "being", meaning you're only as good as the care you give today. You're also only human meaning that if you do this long enough a snapshot will one day catch you being a bad (fill in the blank).

Being good also means you seek to bring out the best in your co-workers because they'll be taking care of patients when you're not there (if that fails being good means getting that person off patient care).
Viewing other healthcare positions as against you instead of part of YOUR TEAM doesn't make you a good advocate for your patient.

Can we move on?
 

QofQuimica

Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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NTF has basically said it all. :thumbup:

The only thing I want to point out here is that this forum is *not* only for premeds. Notwithstanding the location of the forum on the forum list, the Nontrad forum is for *all* nontrads, at *all* stages of training (and not only for nontrads in medicine). It's unfortunate that we lose so many contributors to our community once they move on to the next phase of their education--I would like to strongly encourage all of you nontrad regulars who are now med/other health students and residents to continue posting in this forum when you can.