Nurses are not doctors

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I can see the argument for such a prolonged and comprehensive educational process if one was going into something that necessitates a deep understanding of the entire human body and all its biochemical processes. However, that obviously isn't the case when so much of medicine is super-specialized nowadays. A ophthalmologist knows absolutely jacks*** about anything that doesn't deal with the eyes. I wouldn't trust an Ob/gyn to care for even your basic pneumonia, and your orthopedic surgeon probably couldn't pick out an obvious STEMI unless the machine reads it for him/her. What's the point of learning something only to forget it the moment you enter residency?
This is all wrong, to be blunt. 🙂

The depth and breadth of medical education is essential even to people who narrowly subspecialize. We don't remember every detail from biochem or histology, but the landscape and context is still there, and it makes us better doctors.

You could open up surgery residencies to new nurse grads and be able to train them to cut people and maybe even follow protocols to decide which patients need surgery. It'd probably work out, most of the time.

But much of safe medical practice is being able to connect the dots and see when something on the edge of the chief complaint (or your specialty) is amiss.

It's hard to recognize edge conditions when you've never even seen the edges.

Edges are where important things get missed.


Trivial example: Back in the day, pre anesthesia residency, I was the doc for a Marine infantry battalion in Afghanistan and saw a 22 year old complaining of fatigue and URI symptoms. A midlevel saw him with me, had seen him previously and given abx for presumed strep throat. The patient had palpable supraclav nodes, so I took him over to the surgical team & lab and got a CBC. Elevated white count, 95% lymphocytes. The midlevel thought the elevated white count was evidence of a bacterial infection, consistent with strep. We medevac'd the patient and he started chemo about a week later.
 
Medicine is not that compartmentalized.
In my experience in anesthesia, it is the broad exposure that gives you a better understanding of your patients and their potential pitfalls. It is the little nagging voice in your head when you read a complex pre op eval. If we were just tube jockeys, it wouldn't matter.

The goal is to turn us into tube jockeys for the lion's share of care. The article is more than a decade old.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1998/03/30/1998_03_30_074_TNY_LIBRY_000015236

This is the free excerpt:

MEDICAL DISPATCH about whether the medical community should rely on computers to perform certain medical diagnoses. Two years ago, Dr. Hans Ohlin, the 50-year-old chief of coronary care at the University of Lund Hospital, in Sweden, participated in an electrocardiogram (EKG) study led by Lars Edenbrandt, Ohlin's colleague and an expert in artificial intelligence. The EKG, which is used to detect signs of a heart attack, is one of the most common diagnostic tests, performed more than 50 million times a year in the U.S. alone. The purpose of the Swedish study was to deduce whether a computer could outperform an experienced human specialist in successfully diagnosing heart attacks among patients using their EKG results. Edenbrandt fed his computer over 10,000 EKGs until the machine grew expert at reading them. Then he approached Dr. Ohlin, one of the top cardiologists in Sweden, and asked him to make diagnoses on 2,240 EKGs from the hospital files. When the results were published this past fall, they showed that machine had beaten man by 20%. In Western medicine, machine-like precision among physicians is prized above all; the keys to perfection, it seems, are routinization and repetition. Consider hernia repair. In most hospitals, hernia operations take about 90 minutes and cost more than $4,000; in 10-15% of the cases, the operation fails and the hernia returns. At the Shouldice Hospital, a small medical center outside Toronto, however, hernia operations take 30-45 minutes, the recurrence rate is 1%, and the cost is around $2,000. The secret of the clinic's success is that the 12 surgeons at Shouldice perform hernia operations and nothing else; each surgeon repairs between 600-800 hernias a year--more than most general surgeons do in a lifetime. All the repetition apparently changes the way they think: the surgeons become accustomed to dealing with nonstandard situations in an automatic mode. If the Swedish EKG study argues that there are situations in which machines should replace physicians, the Shouldice example suggests that physicians should be trained to act more like machines. The writer describes observing Dr. Richard Sang, of the Shouldice Hospital, as he performed a hernia operation. Sang performed each step in the operation without pause, and the entire procedure took just half and hour. The doctors at Shouldice seem to deliver hernia repairs the way Intel makes chips. Although the medical establishment has begun to recognize that some form of automation can produce the best results in medical treatment, it has been reluctant to apply the same insight to the area of medical diagnosis. The radical implication of the Swedish study is that the individualized, intuitive approach that lies at the center of modern medicine is flawed, and it may cause more mistakes than it prevents. There's ample support for this theory in studies done outside medicine. Cognitive psychologists--like Paul Meehl, in his classic 1954 treatise, "Clinical Versus Statistical Prediction"--have shown repeatedly that a blind algorithmic approach usually trumps human judgement in making predictions and diagnoses. The superiority of computer algorithms may attributed to the fact that humans are inconsistent: we are easily influenced by recent experience, distractions, and outside suggestions; and we are also less skilled at considering multiple factors. It is probably inevitable that in the next few years physicians will begin letting computers take over diagnostic decisions. One network, PAPNET, is already gaining mainstream use in the screening of digitized Pap smears for cancer. Other hospitals are also taking a lesson from the success of Shouldice and creating superspecialized treatment centers. Mechanized medicine may seem horrifying to many people, but a medical community where computers perform many of the diagnoses may free doctors up to do what only they can do--talk to and care for their patients--thus, ironically, creating a more compassionate medical environment.
 
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Nurses may not be doctors. But if my experiences can be extrapolated as those of the author of that piece's were, doctors from certain schools in the Caribbean are not doctors, either.
 
Nurses may not be doctors. But if my experiences can be extrapolated as those of the author of that piece's were, doctors from certain schools in the Caribbean are not doctors, either.

This contributes nothing to the conversation. I agree, "No."
 
I can see the argument for such a prolonged and comprehensive educational process if one was going into something that necessitates a deep understanding of the entire human body and all its biochemical processes. However, that obviously isn't the case when so much of medicine is super-specialized nowadays. A ophthalmologist knows absolutely jacks*** about anything that doesn't deal with the eyes. I wouldn't trust an Ob/gyn to care for even your basic pneumonia, and your orthopedic surgeon probably couldn't pick out an obvious STEMI unless the machine reads it for him/her. What's the point of learning something only to forget it the moment you enter residency?

I disagree. Ophthalmologists know about anything that can deal with the eyes, which is a whole lot of things. Many of these things are systemic conditions that have a lot of overlap with neurology, endocrinology, cardiovascular medicine, rheumatology, etc.

The learning we forget is the practical learning that we don't use. The theoretical learning forms the basis for adding knowledge and learning new things down the road, which we as physicians all do. Midlevel education does not have this foundation. Theirs is based on nursing theory, which is heavy on the social aspect, and their primary mode of thinking is very protocol-driven. Though they have excellent skills at what they do, it is a stretch to say they can expand it further without a sound theoretical basis. Furthermore, and I risk sounding elitist, but even if nursing school did try to push more basic sciences in there, it might not matter since the standards of entry are quite low for nursing and many people might not get it.
 
One other thing. Physicians are scientists. From the beginning, starting with day 1 of the undergraduate degree, most of us get an education that is aimed at making scientists first and doctors later (or more often, not at all).

Broad and deep hard science education that gets out into the weedy details. Rigorous (albeit only a year's worth or so) prerequisites in statistics, calculus, and physics. Med school adcoms place great value and emphasis on research experience and publications. This is more than just being able to collect some data and get a p value out of an Excel template. It shapes the way we think, how we analyze data, and how we make decisions. Even the non-traditional humanity major undergrads have a dense core of hard science classes, including labs, as minimum prerequisites.

Nursing education is focused differently from the beginning. Scientific inquiry and adding to the world's body of knowledge are really not part of advanced practice nurse curriculums. It's only later that some of them add on research, and it seems to be mostly an afterthought. Few have published even a case report, abstract, or poster. A bare handful obtain doctorate level degrees that involve some kind of original research (and some of those online degrees are rather suspect, at that).
 
(Bold mine.) Sounds like flying-car and cold-fusion talk, there.

The Sci-Fi Myth Of Robot Competence

I don't disagree. But I do envision more rigid adherence to treatment algorithms, less ability to use clinical judgement to deviate from "optimal" treatment pathways. E.g., Recently we had a fall out in our abx for SCIP. The abx had been given about one hour 5 minutes pre incision. "Optimal" therapy dictated that the patient receive another dose of ABX. The anesthesiologist elected not to. Felt that the risk/benefit ratio favored not giving another dose. There was much administrative dyspepsia over this.

The types of "mistakes" that are willing to be tolerated are changing. A surgeon who typically has below average outcomes, higher complication rates can chug merrily along for a long time. A surgeon who has above average outcomes but has a single wrong sided surgery may see his career ended.

With all the scrutiny of central line infections, we are placing ALOT less of them. No Line...No CLABSI... No ding. A few patients have gotten in trouble post op have had trouble being treated appropriately due to poor vascular access. That particular "metric" does not show up on administrative radar.

An above average anesthesiologist, the type of doc who gets the lion's share of requests will be seriously damaged by a wrong med administration error as opposed to average to below average doc whose patients more often need to be rescued who doesn't commit that particular transgression.

Quality is being redefined in ways that many of us feel are just plain foolish.
 
With all the scrutiny of central line infections, we are placing ALOT less of them. No Line...No CLABSI... No ding. A few patients have gotten in trouble post op have had trouble being treated appropriately due to poor vascular access. That particular "metric" does not show up on administrative radar.

This is a double-edged sword. With the denominator going down the numerator effect is enhanced. I've seen this in my current hospital which has relatively low volumes for certain procedure so a bad outcome stands out like a sore thumb. And our local paper loves to read through the reports we have to generate and submit to the appropriate authorities and then write titillating and salacious articles about how bad the care patients get out our hospital is simply because of some exaggerated percentage point.

The insane are running the asylum.
 
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