Nurses eat their young?

[katnapper]

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Does anyone understand why having a med student work with residents and doctors is a normal experience where teaching is inevitable, and with nursing students it is not? What I mean is, at least half of the nurses that I've worked with on the floor either:
1. Tell me to do my thing and when I need help are totally MIA
2. Tell me I am not their responsibility.
3. Ask me why I don't know something when I ask a simple question.
4. Are completely rude and don't include me and explain what they are doing.
5. Huff and Puff when they find out I am a student and working with their patient.


If they were SMART, they would look at me as an asset. Someone who will help out for the day and also would realize that I am the future of their profession and when they are sick, I might be taking care of them. Heh.

Whose idea was it to carry on the "nurses eat their young..." tradition?

 

[fab4fan]

If I were in charge, one of the first things I would do is eliminate nursing dx.

The second thing I would do is eradicate the expression "nurses eat their young."

Every job has it's share of hazing. If you think this doesn't happen to med students, I'm afraid you're a little naive. There are probably dozens who post on this board who would be happy to disabuse you from that idea.

There are rude and indifferent people everywhere. Instead of generalizing, why not consider it as an individual behaving badly?

There are a lot of reasons why a student or new nurse might be on the receiving end of this lack of enthusiasm by staff nurses:

1. Pt care ratios are becoming impossible to manage. Going to the lounge for a toilet break is a major event. To find out that you're going to be assigned a student automatically means you're going to be slowed down.

2. There is a bit of truth to the "not my responsibility" comment. Students are supposed to have instructors to use for questions, observation with procedures, etc. The problem is, there aren't enough instructors to go around, so that job goes by default to the staff. As a staff nurse, you don't get more $$ to precept (a few places do pay for precepting, but the majority do not), your level of responsibility now is not just your pts; you must include the student's patients, and the student herself. And you, the staff nurse, will not have your assignment lightened so you can give the student the attention she needs, because the unit is understaffed already.

3. The next time someone asks you that, it may be that she is trying to clarify what you don't understand. Are there parts you understand, or do you just flat out not "get it."

4. Some people do not like to talk while doing procedures, so you may need to be the one to ask questions. ("Why did you do that that way?") I've seen students who refused to do a scut procedure, then came running when there was an interesting procedure. They didn't get to participate, mostly because of her attitude.

5. It is so hard to do your work these days and leave knowing you've done it safely. To add a second pt load and a student to the mix...well, it can get hairy, so an aggravated sigh does happen.

Most nurses who precept don't even get to take a class on how to be an effective preceptor. That's a crime, and it certainly doesn't help things.

In defense of older nurses (like myself) some students almost deserve a bit of it. I've seen students come to clinicals dressed like they were going on a picnic. They were woefully unprepared; did not know the most basic info. I'm not sure how they thought they were going to work, but...

I've seen new grads heave heavy sighs of boredom when an older nurse is trying to teach her a new procedure. I've seen them mock the older nurses. And I have seen them ridicule where the nurse went to school ("You went to a diploma school?"). I've seen them refuse to clean up an incontinent pt, then when we had a more interesting case admitted, the student wanted to be assigned to him.

Just some advice in general for new grads: Please cut your older co-workers a break. See how you feel in 5-10y...20y. You don't have the experience that they do, whereas they have been in your shoes already. Offer to do things that no one wants to do. A handwritten kind note at the end of your internship will go far.

 

[medtechv79]

Sounds like my lab intersnship at the hospital. I was a MT student. I got the same attitudes from the lab workers there...not all but most! Morale was pretty low and most of the workers there were very old and hard to relate to.

I don't think its fair Fab4fan that u pin down all this on a student....its not their fault. I was eager to learn and help and u know sometimes I didn't always know the rules of the lab and for my review got "needs to show more initiative" when I thought I was.
But these lab workers were not even the most bit encouraging! They ignore u for most of the year and only congratulate u when u graduate. I mean I know they have a full load to work...and stuff but they know they have students to take on and should try at least to be a little nicer about it.
My other classmates complained as well too.
Maybe a young student is there to give u a fresh perspective instead of the routine work u have been doing for 20 or so yrs. Maybe its b/c of that u have an attitude that I'm too busy or yer not my responsibility. Don't forget students are the future of this world and gonna take care of u when u are ailing an ill! (esp. if yer a baby boomer). If yer a preceptor then try to be enthusiastic maybe that's why ppl decide nursings not for them and change jobs and theres such a shortage! Yer attitude goes a long way...nice first impression!
It may not be in yer job description but I think that's what the health world is like....to teach others even if its not in yer description. ANd what better way to learn than in a clinical setting??? Its not college and textbooks anymore its the real world setting....
SOme students may not be perfect but give them a break...they don't know all the tricks of the trade or rules to abide by give em' time....

I'm done venting!

 

[NewEastCoastRN]

I have to agree to a certain extent with Fab4Fan. I really like working with students, but my job is so stressful and I have had to put up with so much crap that my patience is just not what it used to be. We have so much responsibility on our shoulders that it is difficult to always be the type of teacher most students would like. It is just sometimes not possible to have a happy face and be that "perfect teacher."

 

[fab4fan]

medtech: Please go back and reread what I said.

What I said was that rude and unkind people exist in all age groups, so try to see what is happening from that perspective, instead of generalizing that it's older nurses who eat their young.

I've seen, and been on the receiving end of some really rude behavior from new grads. That doesn't make me think that "new grads have no respect for experienced nurses." And I'm sorry, but I have seen some nurses, new and old, set themselves up for hostility from others because of the attitudes they brought to work.

If your review said you needed to show more initiative, you should have asked for clarification if you felt it was an unwarranted criticism. You're a student...there's going to be some criticism of your work. This person was trying to tell you a way to improve your practice. Take that statement and see how you can use it to better yourself.

If you didn't know all the rules to the lab, then it was incumbent upon you to take the initiative to learn them. Even if your co-workers were not encouraging, you still have a professional responsibility to insure that you have the necessary information. That means doing some learning on your own.

I tried to give you some reasons why seasoned staff may not always be so thrilled to have students, and instead of hearing that, you turned it into a semi attack on how I precept others. Since you have never worked with me, you really have no idea how I treat students, so I'll tell you: I try to remember what it was like to be new and feel scared and overwhelmed. I try to remember how a kind word or encouragement from a preceptor made me feel.

In turn, I ask that a student treat me with respect. I don't see students as being my personal scut-puppies, but by the same token, if a student wants to be treated as part of the team, then I don't expect sighs and eyeball rolling if I ask for help to clean up a pt. If we are extremely busy and I ask the student if she can help by doing a procedure, I really don't appreciate hearing, "I've already been signed off on that" and then have the student walk away.

Until you've been in the position of having a heavy caseload and then finding out you have a student, too, I don't think you should discount how stressful this can be. Nowhere in my post did I say it's OK for experienced nurses to tread students badly. I simply asked for some understanding, just as you have asked from me.

SOme students may not be perfect but give them a break

No problem. And not all experienced staff nurses are perfect, so give them a break, too. Someday, the situation will be reversed, and you'll appreciate how difficult it can be. A thoughtful thank you note from a student at the end of a rotation can make those of us who precept feel so much better.
You may be surprised to know this, but I always give students I precept a card with some encouraging thoughts about the experience.

 

[katnapper]

medtech:

What I said was that rude and unkind people exist in all age groups, so try to see what is happening from that perspective, instead of generalizing that it's older nurses who eat their young.

Sorry if you feel I generalized and lumped all of you together. I thought I mentioned that I have had some great nurses that were willing to give me space to learn and wanted me to have a good experience.

I've seen, and been on the receiving end of some really rude behavior from new grads. That doesn't make me think that "new grads have no respect for experienced nurses." And I'm sorry, but I have seen some nurses, new and old, set themselves up for hostility from others because of the attitudes they brought to work.

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time and we, as grad nurses have come off disrespectful and rude. I think there is always such a discrepency as far as how a procedure is taught in school, versus how it is performed nurse to nurse. New grads may have been taught that "this is the one and only way to do this. Period." I know I've had some really strict and inflexible instructors, when really there are several ways you can go about a procedure. Perhaps they are too naive or green to realize that.

Until you've been in the position of having a heavy caseload and then finding out you have a student, too, I don't think you should discount how stressful this can be. Nowhere in my post did I say it's OK for experienced nurses to tread students badly. I simply asked for some understanding, just as you have asked from me.

That's really what I was hoping to hear. It doesn't have to be a loving, walk me through everything experience, but a good working relationship can benefit both the SN and the nurse.

No problem. And not all experienced staff nurses are perfect, so give them a break, too. Someday, the situation will be reversed, and you'll appreciate how difficult it can be. A thoughtful thank you note from a student at the end of a rotation can make those of us who precept feel so much better.
You may be surprised to know this, but I always give students I precept a card with some encouraging thoughts about the experience.

Fab4fan, that is great. I've never heard of a nurse doing that for students, although we always throw a party for the unit and write umpteen thank you notes. I hope you don't think that my original question was rude and ungrateful, I just wanted to let it be known what most of my experience has been like thus far. I can't wait until I am done with school so I am not in the awkward position of: "What do I do as a student nurse that does not cross over with someone else's duties and where I can have a positive effect on those I've worked with today?" Being a nursing student is AWKWARD.

Oh, and about med school hazing.
There may be hazing everywhere, but they are expected to be involved in cases. As nursing students, it is as if we are allowed to be refused by nurses and patients moreso than students in other disciplines.

Just my observation thus far.

Okay. I have to study more OB stuff.

 

[medtechv79]

Fab4Fan

Hey,

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to come off as personally attacking you. I guess from my OWN experience I just felt a need to vent. And yes I did get clarification about showing intiative. Its very different to work in a healthcare setting and much faster paced and stressful I know. So, I can understand how ppl are extremely stressed and to take on more workload is another burden. But alot was just my personal experience. So many ppl have been in this business for 10-20 years....its also hard when everyone around u is much much older and yer a young, awkward grad with not much life experience and no one to relate to. So that's just me....my lab experience might be different from experiences on the floor with nurses and med students...so don't take my post to heart.

 

[fab4fan]

No problem. My initial reply was going to be "The reason older nurses eat their young is the young are easier to chew", but I didn't think that would be very helpful. 😉

Don't worry...seems like yesterday I heard a nurse say she'd been an RN for 6y and I thought "God, six years!"

For the record, there was a nurse who terrified me when I was a student, and that was 20y ago. I still remember her first and last name. And wouldn't you know it, years after I graduated, guess who I had to take care of? Her husband. Felt like a student all over again.

 

[katnapper]

For the record, there was a nurse who terrified me when I was a student, and that was 20y ago. I still remember her first and last name. And wouldn't you know it, years after I graduated, guess who I had to take care of? Her husband. Felt like a student all over again.

That is so something that would happen to me.
Ironically, one of my instructors was working on a floor where I was doing some chart audits for nursing administration, and when I told her what I was doing, she laughed uncomfortably and said that she would just chart once I left.
Tables kind of turned there. Unexpected reaction.

 

[NurseyK]

I thought the funniest thing was when I applied to medschool and needed LORs. (Un)fortunately, I needed a letter from an instructor at my nursing school. When I went to the Dept to see what teachers were still left after 7+ years...there was only ONE. And, of course, that ONE was the ONE teacher who would line us up in front of the busiest nurses' station every am as we hit the floor to humiliate and degrade us all. The biggest question before starting work was "ok, who's gonna cry today?" It was aweful. Since I am not the type of gal to cry at work, I had an immediate target on me (I was also an LPN before RN school, so that was another reason for the target). This nsg instructor went nose to nose with me in front of everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) at that busy nurses' station and told me it was going to be her mission to fail me and make sure I was never going to work as an RN. I respectfully said nothing at the time, but went to her office hours later on in the day and quietly leaned over her and whispered in her ear that I would not only graduate, but graduate top of my class and make it painful for her to write an "A" for all the classes I had with her. Then I walked away. Needless to say, the rest of my ADN program was hell with this woman (and no, she wasn't doing it in a way to stimulate teaching and learning, she freely admitted that she loved to make us all get flustered/cry). SOOOOOO, years later (and many years after doing what I said I'd do) I see her there in the office and immediately think "oh ****" and "well, what do I have to lose". So I ask her if she remembered me (she did) and if she could write a LOR for medschool. She did -- and from what I heard during my interviews at the time, the letter was very nice and complimentary. I went by to her office again to tell her I was accepted to medschool and she said, "Why of course you were accepted. I told them that if you could survive me and my punishment in nursing school, medschool will be a breeze for you."

Go figure.


Kat

 

[klgsatx]

😎

 

[NoAngel]

Fab4Fan for NLN President, then come run my hospital. We desperately need common sense, everyday smarts to run the place.

Nurses eat their young because they are burned out, tired, cranky, have taken a ration of abuse never meant for them, have handled the sick and dying and now must go home to their own families -- who don't realize that they need taking care of also. They have given their day over to helping a daughter cope with her mother's lousy dx, then get screamed at by some weirdo attending in front of his minions because of a small mistake, which won't make a darned bit of difference in the long run.

I want to extend my one-year-old RN apology to all new nurses out there who are going thru this terrible right of passage: they are testing you, testing you, testing you. It sux, it's at times truly hurtful, but it will pass. If Fab4Fan will agree to run for president, or at least the state senator from IL (you apparently don't really need to live in IL, or even be interested in the campaign 😛 ) then maybe between the grassroots movement we will all be kinder to our new nurses. i'm still sore from the bruising I took when I started too, an year ago. Ouch.

Hang in there.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Their are two types of nurses, those that like their jobs and those that don't. The ones that enjoy their jobs are generally eager to teach others about it. They are the ones that will be willing to take a student and share their experiences. THe ones that don't like their jobs are the ones that don't want to be bothered with students because the students may ask them a question that will make them think or work harder. I don't think that this is only true in nursing however. When I was looking for a dentist that would be willing to let me follow them around I found the exact same things, and I am sure that it is the same in most professions.

 

[dog lovingnurs]

I was a waitress for 20 years before I became a nurse. I believe that professions whom are dominated by women, "eat their young." Even in mother daughter relationships it is the daughters rather than the sons that are eaten.

 

[chameleonknight]

What an interesting post...

When I was a wee pup of a pre-med student, doing volunteering in an ER, I wasn't criticized by the docs, I was 100% ignored. Only the nurses showed any interest in me at all, calling me in to see interesting cases, telling me the ins and outs of the hospital. I was volunteering on the night shift, where they were understaffed...plus they all said things would eerily slow down whenever I walked in. As such, I was pretty well received. And for that matter, so were the nursing students.

Interestingly enough, the nurses who helped me the most were also the ones with the most responsibility, the charge nurses. No difference between the male and female nurses. Who knows, maybe it was just a good work environment?

Just try to ignore the baby eaters.

 

[gizmoduck]

I've never met a sane nurse. They're all either obsessive, bitter work-horses or complete whackaloons.

 

[phleebie]

I've never met a sane nurse. They're all either obsessive, bitter work-horses or complete whackaloons.

i completely agree

 

[NoAngel]

i completely agree

I've never met a sane nurse. They're all either obsessive, bitter work-horses or complete whackaloons.

Your post is completely uncalled for. You think nurses are 'complete whackaloons'? I hope and pray that one day when you need a nurse to save your incompetent, insecure, wet-behind-the-ears butt that they leave you high and dry. Since this is a SDN, I'm assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you are some sort of so-called medical professional.

The day will come, as it does for everyone, that you make a mistake because you are too arrogant, insecure or just plain stupid to realize you need help. God help your patients. I hope I never seen the likes of you in my ER.

You owe nurses a huge apology, both of you. Without nurses, healthcare in this country would grind to a halt faster than your stupid arrorant, rude, obnoxious comments will.