Nurses looking to replace Anesthesiologists in "Collaborative" Model

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DrCommonSense

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I have included an article from the PRESIDENT of AANA concerning their belief for the future "cost effective" model for Anesthesiologist in the future.

Unfortunately, the model for anesthesiologists in the future very may well be "collaborative" compared to "supervising" CRNAs. If that occurs, expect anesthesiologists to be paid marginally more than CRNAs per hour (5% premium).

The VA independence is the first step towards the decline. Once the VA can "prove" independent CRNAS are equal to "MDAs" in the vast majority of cases (will only take a few years), it will be game over. They will clamor for "collaborative" models in the future hardcore after a few years of VA independence. The can easily use "metrics" to prove that for the vast majority of cases CRNAS are just as "safe" as Anesthesiologists (outside of complex peds or hearts)

Future changes will likely include:

1) Collaboration model with a slight premium for Anesthesiologist who will have to take "liability" for a CRNA that gets into a difficult situation. Salaries will decline for almost all specialists to above 30-50% over PCP but particularly for Anesthesiologists this is an acute issue with VA independence.
2) Decreased reimbursement towards the Medicare payment model (33% of private insurance) as Obamacare premiums skyrocket. This will be made possible with no stipend offered for anesthesiologist practices and increased utilization of CRNAS as more "cost effective" in the future
3) AMC take over of the vast majority of practices (NAPA is the biggest example) due to PE money and Mckinsey consultants
4) Continued pushing for "independence" by healthcare "consultants" while the profits go to PE/Consultants with MBAs taking the profit margins that are left over.
5) Increased liability due to lack of tort reform in the future coupled with increased risk with coverage of "collaborative" CRNAs while not getting paid for it.

This is the opinion of big business/Hillary/militant CRNA PACs for the future who are all collaborating together to make this come to fruition after they can use the VA as "proof":

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-quality-anesthesia-care-at-a-lower-cost.html

Notice the article from Becker Spine is supporting strongly by the "Lewin" group that says anesthesiologists are NOT cost effective at all basically in ANY model.


The question occurs for physicians with good net worths (>3-5 million), is it worth it to continue to practice with largely decreasing reimbursement, increased liability, etc?

Would it be better to be a PCP under these systems with a slight decrease in salary but largely less liability? Remember Anesthesiology has HUGE liability risk that is largely uncontrollable in the future due to surgeons/administrators DICTATING providers to do cases or be fired when consolidation occurs, especially with an overabundance of CRNAs.

Any good MBA could tell you about NPV valuations and DCF in the future. According to an NPV analysis, earning after tax income of 300K for 30 years is only equivalent to about 3 million in the bank now at a discount rate of a conservative 6%. This could be marginally better with a 2-3% growth rate in anesthesiologist salaries but the future will likely see a DECLINE rather than increase for the confluence of many factors.

That is why Anesthesiologist have net worth's on average of "2.68" on the medscape survey that is equivalent to between 500-1million and 1-2 million, most in their 60s and 70s. The future will be worse.

Therefore, it might be better to get into the "lower risk" specialities in the future, even if anesthesiologist only makes a slight premium, particularly if you have ASSETS.

Also, don't trust the crap that they won't sue you over "your limits". They will get a forensic account to determine your net worth. If you have millions exposed in stocks, cash, etc, they WILL go after that if they get a big judgement (not that difficult anymore with the huge increases in lawsuits recently).

One of many my friend: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-u-of-c-malpractice-verdict-0701-biz-20160630-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...ctice-settlement-0223-biz-20160222-story.html

Damn that MBA or even lower risk "lower paid" specialties are looking more and more attractive these days for physicians with any money.

Members don't see this ad.
 
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The sky is falling!!!

Nah nothing to worry about that the AANA President is basically saying there is no need for anesthesiologists and is pushing hard to get the legislation changed with the help of Congress/Big Business Consultants/PE groups.

Its not like he represents 49K nurse anesthesia personnel or anything.

its not like the VA is heading this way.

There's nothing to worry about, everything is perfect man.

Anyone who says something different is a crazy alarmist that just doesn't keep up with politics or anything.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
Becker review? Really, written by CRNA extolling the virtues of nurse anesthesia. Cervical epidurals done by specialist in Bozemon, Montana. Wonderful.
Of course, the Hospital administrator is going to cite this peer reviewed paper to negotiate down anesthesia subsidy. But dont think they are going to take all this savings and pay the nurses. Wishful thinking
Nurses are being hired from phillipines on a 1-2 yr contingency contract and experienced ones are being told to work for less or furloughed.
 
Nah nothing to worry about that the AANA President is basically saying there is no need for anesthesiologists and is pushing hard to get the legislation changed with the help of Congress/Big Business Consultants/PE groups.

Its not like he represents 49K nurse anesthesia personnel or anything.

its not like the VA is heading this way.

There's nothing to worry about, everything is perfect man.

Anyone who says something different is a crazy alarmist that just doesn't keep up with politics or anything.
That's what they are being told by their residency programs and the ASA: "don't worry we will transform you into surgical home specialists and all will be good!"
 
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Becker review? Really, written by CRNA extolling the virtues of nurse anesthesia. Cervical epidurals done by specialist in Bozemon, Montana. Wonderful.
Of course, the Hospital administrator is going to cite this peer reviewed paper to negotiate down anesthesia subsidy. But dont think they are going to take all this savings and pay the nurses. Wishful thinking
Nurses are being hired from phillipines on a 1-2 yr contingency contract and experienced ones are being told to work for less or furloughed.

Not just any CRNA but the PRESIDENT of the whole organization that is strongly lobbying for this change.

That's what they are being told by their residency programs and the ASA: "don't worry we will transform you into surgical home specialists and all will be good!"

ASA are pathetic spineless fools. Why are anesthesiologists even training CRNAs in doing epidurals/spinals/IJ lines at this point? Don't get it.
 
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Not just any CRNA but the PRESIDENT of the whole organization that is strongly lobbying for this change.



ASA are pathetic spineless fools. Why are anesthesiologists even training CRNAs in doing epidurals/spinals/IJ lines at this point? Don't get it.

How do we as ASA member, bring about change? May be ASA needs competition. ASA, CSA are just their to collect dues and have some free vacation on the members dime. Do they provide a single free CME to the members?
Very disappointed with
 
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At lease we don't have a CRNA-loving president-elect. Maybe that will make a difference.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
I have included an article from the PRESIDENT of AANA concerning their belief for the future "cost effective" model for Anesthesiologist in the future.

Unfortunately, the model for anesthesiologists in the future very may well be "collaborative" compared to "supervising" CRNAs. If that occurs, expect anesthesiologists to be paid marginally more than CRNAs per hour (5% premium).

The VA independence is the first step towards the decline. Once the VA can "prove" independent CRNAS are equal to "MDAs" in the vast majority of cases (will only take a few years), it will be game over. They will clamor for "collaborative" models in the future hardcore after a few years of VA independence. The can easily use "metrics" to prove that for the vast majority of cases CRNAS are just as "safe" as Anesthesiologists (outside of complex peds or hearts)

Future changes will likely include:

1) Collaboration model with a slight premium for Anesthesiologist who will have to take "liability" for a CRNA that gets into a difficult situation. Salaries will decline for almost all specialists to above 30-50% over PCP but particularly for Anesthesiologists this is an acute issue with VA independence.
2) Decreased reimbursement towards the Medicare payment model (33% of private insurance) as Obamacare premiums skyrocket. This will be made possible with no stipend offered for anesthesiologist practices and increased utilization of CRNAS as more "cost effective" in the future
3) AMC take over of the vast majority of practices (NAPA is the biggest example) due to PE money and Mckinsey consultants
4) Continued pushing for "independence" by healthcare "consultants" while the profits go to PE/Consultants with MBAs taking the profit margins that are left over.
5) Increased liability due to lack of tort reform in the future coupled with increased risk with coverage of "collaborative" CRNAs while not getting paid for it.

This is the opinion of big business/Hillary/militant CRNA PACs for the future who are all collaborating together to make this come to fruition after they can use the VA as "proof":

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-quality-anesthesia-care-at-a-lower-cost.html

Notice the article from Becker Spine is supporting strongly by the "Lewin" group that says anesthesiologists are NOT cost effective at all basically in ANY model.


The question occurs for physicians with good net worths (>3-5 million), is it worth it to continue to practice with largely decreasing reimbursement, increased liability, etc?

Would it be better to be a PCP under these systems with a slight decrease in salary but largely less liability? Remember Anesthesiology has HUGE liability risk that is largely uncontrollable in the future due to surgeons/administrators DICTATING providers to do cases or be fired when consolidation occurs, especially with an overabundance of CRNAs.

Any good MBA could tell you about NPV valuations and DCF in the future. According to an NPV analysis, earning after tax income of 300K for 30 years is only equivalent to about 3 million in the bank now at a discount rate of a conservative 6%. This could be marginally better with a 2-3% growth rate in anesthesiologist salaries but the future will likely see a DECLINE rather than increase for the confluence of many factors.

That is why Anesthesiologist have net worth's on average of "2.68" on the medscape survey that is equivalent to between 500-1million and 1-2 million, most in their 60s and 70s. The future will be worse.

Therefore, it might be better to get into the "lower risk" specialities in the future, even if anesthesiologist only makes a slight premium, particularly if you have ASSETS.

Also, don't trust the crap that they won't sue you over "your limits". They will get a forensic account to determine your net worth. If you have millions exposed in stocks, cash, etc, they WILL go after that if they get a big judgement (not that difficult anymore with the huge increases in lawsuits recently).

One of many my friend: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-u-of-c-malpractice-verdict-0701-biz-20160630-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...ctice-settlement-0223-biz-20160222-story.html

Damn that MBA or even lower risk "lower paid" specialties are looking more and more attractive these days for physicians with any money.
I think you really need to chill out lol. Your scenario is unrealistic, but I'm not going to waste my breath explaining why.
 
http://www.gaswork.com/mobile/post/view/205372/

I was snooping around gaswork to see what jobs in Texas might look like. There weren't that many so I decided to look at what CRNAs are offered. This ad says CRNA only group. I thought CRNAs had to have supervision in Texas... :eek:

That ad is a bullsh_it bait and switch type scenario. There is just no way CRNAs will make $210k with an average 10-15 hour work week as advertised. Don't believe the hype.
 
That ad is a bullsh_it bait and switch type scenario. There is just no way CRNAs will make $210k with an average 10-15 hour work week as advertised. Don't believe the hype.

Yes I assumed that was the case or maybe a typo? Maybe they meant 10-15 hour days. :p

The point I was getting at though is I saw a few ads that mentioned CRNA only practice. Is this possible in TX?
 
Yes I assumed that was the case or maybe a typo? Maybe they meant 10-15 hour days. :p

The point I was getting at though is I saw a few ads that mentioned CRNA only practice. Is this possible in TX?
I guess so.
 
Yes I assumed that was the case or maybe a typo? Maybe they meant 10-15 hour days. :p

The point I was getting at though is I saw a few ads that mentioned CRNA only practice. Is this possible in TX?

Yep, if it's like my previous state any physician can supervise them. Which gets really hairy when there's an anesthesia related issue that the CRNA isn't equipped to handle.
 
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Yep, if it's like my previous state any physician can supervise them. Which gets really hairy when there's an anesthesia related issue that the CRNA isn't equipped to handle.


Well...that sucks. Thought TX was a state that needed supervision
 
Well...that sucks. Thought TX was a state that needed supervision

They do, just not from us. Huge mistake on the ASA's part to condone this. Probably the crucial turning point I'd say?
CRNAs will tell surgeons even if they mess up it has no effect on them. There is, however, "captain of the ship" case law on the books, so they are not at all immune legally from a CRNA mistake.
 
Well...that sucks. Thought TX was a state that needed supervision
it is but it could be any physician. WHich makes absolutely zero sense.

BUt it is what it is..

The surgeons must realize they are facilitating this with NO additional revenue.

We are being screwed at every turn.
 
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it is but it could be any physician. WHich makes absolutely zero sense.

BUt it is what it is..

The surgeons must realize they are facilitating this with NO additional revenue.

We are being screwed at every turn.

Yes but hospital administration can "sweeten the pie" for surgeons if necessary to take the extra risk after cost savings on salaries/ending of anesthesiology subsidies.

Wasn't someone on this forum saying that surgeons at their most recent conference were claiming anesthesiologists were overpaid?
 
In TX, CRNAs must be supervised by a physician (can be anybody with an MD). It is very common for GI docs to "supervise" their CRNAs at outpatient centers and take half the billing for themselves. This is prevalent even in large metro areas (Dallas and Houston).
 
In TX, CRNAs must be supervised by a physician (can be anybody with an MD). It is very common for GI docs to "supervise" their CRNAs at outpatient centers and take half the billing for themselves. This is prevalent even in large metro areas (Dallas and Houston).

Going to get worse and worse as Colonoscopies get cut significantly over the next few years, GI docs will attempt to make extra money in other ways such as this.
 
What's a "cardiac crna"? :eek:
Experienced Cardiac CRNAs - Full time -Westchester Medical Center

Westchester Medical Center is seeking two experienced CRNAs for its cardiac surgery program at our Valhalla campus. Eight, 10, or 12 hour shifts negotiable. Occasional non- cardiac anesthesia days in thoracic, vascular, other.

http://www.gaswork.com/post/205778
 
What's a "cardiac crna"? :eek:
Experienced Cardiac CRNAs - Full time -Westchester Medical Center

Westchester Medical Center is seeking two experienced CRNAs for its cardiac surgery program at our Valhalla campus. Eight, 10, or 12 hour shifts negotiable. Occasional non- cardiac anesthesia days in thoracic, vascular, other.

http://www.gaswork.com/post/205778

I dunno but 150-180k with a 10k signing bonus for crna hours sounds pretty sweet to me
 
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Well...that sucks. Thought TX was a state that needed supervision

I wish people would educate themselves on the differences in supervision, medical direction, opt-out, etc. This is anesthesia politics 101.
 
Because Bill Clinton's mother was a CRNA and both Clintons are nurse lovers/physician haters.

That's funny because there is a CRNA I work with who said the opposite. She believes all sorts of weird conspiracy theories, but one day she went on a rant about how Hillary hates nurses and her first goal when she's in the White House will be to put nurses out of work.
 
That's funny because there is a CRNA I work with who said the opposite. She believes all sorts of weird conspiracy theories, but one day she went on a rant about how Hillary hates nurses and her first goal when she's in the White House will be to put nurses out of work.

I think she's trying to spread misinformation, or she's dumb as a rock. Maybe both.


--
Il Destriero
 
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I vote for stopping any and all comments that deal with income, CRNA-physician controversy, political fights, etc as they provide ammo for lurkers/nurses/bean-counters. Assume any and all information posted here can and will be used against us at some point.
 
I have included an article from the PRESIDENT of AANA concerning their belief for the future "cost effective" model for Anesthesiologist in the future.

Unfortunately, the model for anesthesiologists in the future very may well be "collaborative" compared to "supervising" CRNAs. If that occurs, expect anesthesiologists to be paid marginally more than CRNAs per hour (5% premium).

The VA independence is the first step towards the decline. Once the VA can "prove" independent CRNAS are equal to "MDAs" in the vast majority of cases (will only take a few years), it will be game over. They will clamor for "collaborative" models in the future hardcore after a few years of VA independence. The can easily use "metrics" to prove that for the vast majority of cases CRNAS are just as "safe" as Anesthesiologists (outside of complex peds or hearts)

Future changes will likely include:

1) Collaboration model with a slight premium for Anesthesiologist who will have to take "liability" for a CRNA that gets into a difficult situation. Salaries will decline for almost all specialists to above 30-50% over PCP but particularly for Anesthesiologists this is an acute issue with VA independence.
2) Decreased reimbursement towards the Medicare payment model (33% of private insurance) as Obamacare premiums skyrocket. This will be made possible with no stipend offered for anesthesiologist practices and increased utilization of CRNAS as more "cost effective" in the future
3) AMC take over of the vast majority of practices (NAPA is the biggest example) due to PE money and Mckinsey consultants
4) Continued pushing for "independence" by healthcare "consultants" while the profits go to PE/Consultants with MBAs taking the profit margins that are left over.
5) Increased liability due to lack of tort reform in the future coupled with increased risk with coverage of "collaborative" CRNAs while not getting paid for it.

This is the opinion of big business/Hillary/militant CRNA PACs for the future who are all collaborating together to make this come to fruition after they can use the VA as "proof":

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-quality-anesthesia-care-at-a-lower-cost.html

Notice the article from Becker Spine is supporting strongly by the "Lewin" group that says anesthesiologists are NOT cost effective at all basically in ANY model.


The question occurs for physicians with good net worths (>3-5 million), is it worth it to continue to practice with largely decreasing reimbursement, increased liability, etc?

Would it be better to be a PCP under these systems with a slight decrease in salary but largely less liability? Remember Anesthesiology has HUGE liability risk that is largely uncontrollable in the future due to surgeons/administrators DICTATING providers to do cases or be fired when consolidation occurs, especially with an overabundance of CRNAs.

Any good MBA could tell you about NPV valuations and DCF in the future. According to an NPV analysis, earning after tax income of 300K for 30 years is only equivalent to about 3 million in the bank now at a discount rate of a conservative 6%. This could be marginally better with a 2-3% growth rate in anesthesiologist salaries but the future will likely see a DECLINE rather than increase for the confluence of many factors.

That is why Anesthesiologist have net worth's on average of "2.68" on the medscape survey that is equivalent to between 500-1million and 1-2 million, most in their 60s and 70s. The future will be worse.

Therefore, it might be better to get into the "lower risk" specialities in the future, even if anesthesiologist only makes a slight premium, particularly if you have ASSETS.

Also, don't trust the crap that they won't sue you over "your limits". They will get a forensic account to determine your net worth. If you have millions exposed in stocks, cash, etc, they WILL go after that if they get a big judgement (not that difficult anymore with the huge increases in lawsuits recently).

One of many my friend: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-u-of-c-malpractice-verdict-0701-biz-20160630-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...ctice-settlement-0223-biz-20160222-story.html

Damn that MBA or even lower risk "lower paid" specialties are looking more and more attractive these days for physicians with any money.


For all we know, you're the president of the AANA. You don't pass my smell test.
 
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Geez, after seeing all these links to Gaswork.com ads for CRNAs to work part-time hours for $150k+, I can't believe I ever considered going to AA school in the first place. I guess it's never too late to consider going back to school to do the local 3-semester accelerated RN program...
 
Geez, after seeing all these links to Gaswork.com ads for CRNAs to work part-time hours for $150k+, I can't believe I ever considered going to AA school in the first place. I guess it's never too late to consider going back to school to do the local 3-semester accelerated RN program...
You forgot the lobotomy.
 
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