Nurses vs. Doctors

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Perrotfish said:
the nursing staff deals with physicians the same way that physicians deal with physicians on other services: by frequently consulting them, somtimes arguing with them, and always complaining bitterly about them. If you're looking for a support network they're not the ones to talk to. There are, of course, a ton of exceptions to this rule.
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Since when do nurses argue with doctors? They are to follow the doctor's orders to the T!!
 
MedProdigy said:
Since when do nurses argue with doctors? They are to follow the doctor's orders to the T!!
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I think you're attempting sarcasm here, but let me be the not-first to tell you that you are on a bullet train towards Bannedsville, my man.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
I think you're attempting sarcasm here, but let me be the not-first to tell you that you are on a bullet train towards Bannedsville, my man.
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And I would just make a new name. No biggy.
 
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What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
 
thomprya said:
What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
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There are many errors in this post. I will defer to Kaushik on this one. BTW, are you a DNP or head of their PR campaign?
 
thomprya said:
What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
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ruhroh128548602003264776.jpg
 
startswithb said:
There are many errors in this post. I will defer to Kaushik on this one. BTW, are you a DNP or head of their PR campaign?
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Going to med school next year actually. Just thought I would post what I have seen while working at a clinic for about a year now. Feel free to enlighten me one what is wrong with my post since i dont see anything wrong with it.
 
Wow, here I was about to declare this thread a trolling failure... just after someone took the bait 🙄.
 
a really talented troll would have chosen a less easy/obvious topic
 
Geekchick921 said:
That would have been my answer if I was single. 🙂
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You're taken!?!? 🙁

medzealot said:
True. Doctor writes orders; Nurse wakes doctor with 3:00 am phone call to verify. This does not happen the other way around.

Not debatable who has more autonomy in patient care. Definitely debatable who has more "power."
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Hmmm... +1 for nurses?
 
thomprya said:
What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
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probably trolling but
Join Date: 2009

many states have laws against this. In the hospital setting, Dr. is associated with physician by patients, and so a nurse advertising themselves as doctor in a hospital (w/o qualification that they are not a physician) is viewed as fraud by many legal systems.

If you look at the nurse anesthetist leaders, their AANA organization is trying to force future students to get watered-down doctorates (tacking on a few months of nurse research at the end of the program) in order to mislead patients about their "equivalency" to an anesthesiologist.
 
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Geekchick921 said:
I'm married, man.
<--- That's my first kid in utero. There's a second one in there now.
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Congratulations! 🙂

I'm getting baby fever again too.
 
thomprya said:
What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
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I say they can be called people with a "doctorate in nursing". As the poster above said, doctor is associated with physician in the hospital and is therefore inappropriate.
 
One of the attendings (Taurus) who posts in Emergency residency thread all the time has this as his signature, which is interesting:

Clinical training hrs
DNP: 700 (offered online 😱)
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >17000

50% failed simplified Step 3 :wow:

Yet, DNP's want to be called 'Dr', independent everywhere (outpt, inpt, ER), be equivalent to PCP's & have full hospital privileges

DNP residencies New!

Pearson report

Future of medicine? :scared:
1) Do true NP outcome studies
2) Pass institutional policies restricting 'Dr' title
3) Hire PA's & AA's not DNP's or CRNA's
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patel2 said:
many states have laws against this. In the hospital setting, Dr. is associated with physician by patients, and so a nurse advertising themselves as doctor in a hospital (w/o qualification that they are not a physician) is viewed as fraud by many legal systems.
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Not so sure about that, at least in California Psych PhDs are generally referred to as Doctor whoever, and I'd assume a DNP would probably get the same right. At the same time many MDs, especially newer ones, actually prefer being called by their first name even though you're not supposed to do it. Most Doctorates do this too, so generally with familiarity a lot of people drop the Doctor title in non-official communication. Patient contact is considered official in this case
 
blehm98 said:
Not so sure about that, at least in California Psych PhDs are generally referred to as Doctor whoever, and I'd assume a DNP would probably get the same right. At the same time many MDs, especially newer ones, actually prefer being called by their first name even though you're not supposed to do it. Most Doctorates do this too, so generally with familiarity a lot of people drop the Doctor title in non-official communication. Patient contact is considered official in this case
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The issue here is calling someone a doctor in a hospital when they are not. And yes, people love to be called doctor when they aren't physicians.

Check the clinical training hours from that one attendings signature:

Clinical training hrs
DNP: 700 (offered online 😱)
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >17000
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I think that say it all.
 
Wow, what a bunch of irresponsible, egotistical responses I have read. My God. Seriously? If you are getting in to this field because you think you are better than anyone else then I truly feel sorry for your future patients.

A CNA has just as much worth as the secretary and the same as an RN. Just the same, NPs and MD/DOs have their specific purpose and are of equal importance to the patient. The whole purpose is to provide the best possible patient outcomes. Everyone has their job in making this happen.

Just outright sickening to see some of the negative attitudes towards other members of what is supposed to be a team.
 
patel2 said:
probably trolling but
Join Date: 2009

many states have laws against this. In the hospital setting, Dr. is associated with physician by patients, and so a nurse advertising themselves as doctor in a hospital (w/o qualification that they are not a physician) is viewed as fraud by many legal systems.

If you look at the nurse anesthetist leaders, their AANA organization is trying to force future students to get watered-down doctorates (tacking on a few months of nurse research at the end of the program) in order to mislead patients about their "equivalency" to an anesthesiologist.
Click to expand...


Yeah, not a troll (although that term is used very liberally on this site) but what I meant in my statement is PhD, PsyD, MD, DO, DDS, Pharm.D, DVM, DPT etc all are designated as doctor. The term doctor is so generalized these days it really means a degree higher then masters or the highest degree in any discipline. If a nurse got their RN and then went to school for an additional 3-4 years to get their DNP then I personally have no problem calling them a doctor, nor do I have any problem calling my college professors doctors or my vet a doctor. However, they are not physicians. It may sound like a silly distinction but realistically we don't have enough unique designations in our language for people with higher degrees that their is something of an overlap.
 
airborneinf82 said:
Wow, what a bunch of irresponsible, egotistical responses I have read. My God. Seriously? If you are getting in to this field because you think you are better than anyone else then I truly feel sorry for your future patients.

A CNA has just as much worth as the secretary and the same as an RN. Just the same, NPs and MD/DOs have their specific purpose and are of equal importance to the patient. The whole purpose is to provide the best possible patient outcomes. Everyone has their job in making this happen.

Just outright sickening to see some of the negative attitudes towards other members of what is supposed to be a team.
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This was your first post on these boards huh? Doctor of Nursing Wiseman, is that you??
 
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thomprya said:
Yeah, not a troll (although that term is used very liberally on this site) but what I meant in my statement is PhD, PsyD, MD, DO, DDS, Pharm.D, DVM, DPT etc all are designated as doctor. The term doctor is so generalized these days it really means a degree higher then masters or the highest degree in any discipline. If a nurse got their RN and then went to school for an additional 3-4 years to get their DNP then I personally have no problem calling them a doctor, nor do I have any problem calling my college professors doctors or my vet a doctor. However, they are not physicians. It may sound like a silly distinction but realistically we don't have enough unique designations in our language for people with higher degrees that their is something of an overlap.
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You're focusing too much on the "doctorate" title instead of the more relevant idea of context. Here's an old post of mine from another section of SDN to clarify what I mean:

Kaushik said:
When I walk into the English department, I assume whoever introduces themselves as a doctor is an English professor. When I walk into the math department and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a math professor. When I walk into the biochemistry department and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a biochem (or another bio field) professor. Not a medical doctor.

When I walk into a dentist's office and one of the staff introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a dentist. Not a medical doctor. When I walk into a veterinarian's office and one of the staff introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a veterinarian. Not a medical doctor. When I go to my optometrist's clinic to get my eyes checked, I assume whoever introduces themselves as a doctor is an optometrist.

Similarly, when I walk into a hospital and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I (and most others, according to a recent AMA patient survey, IIRC...I could be wrong about that) assume that they're a medical doctor (ie. MD/DO). Not an English professor, not a math professor, not a biochemistry professor, not a dentist, not a veterinarian, not an optometrist.

Don't see why you have to get so insulted if someone doesn't address you as a doctor in a context outside of the one you have your doctorate in.
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When the average patient enters a hospital, they expect that someone on their care team introducing themselves as a doctor is a physician.
 
thomprya said:
What a hilariously offensive thread. I really hope you are a troll since the thought of you taking care of patients with that attitude is somewhat concerning.

Anyways, Just wondering everyone's thoughts on DNP and being called doctor. Personally, I feel that if they got a doctorate they should be called doctor. They go to school for an incredible period of time in order to get paid considerably less then most any physicians. Additionally, I really don't feel they are encroaching in physician's 'territory' so much as helping to fill the ever increasing primary care gap. So much as this 'amount of respect' topic I fell they are highly sucessful in their field of choice and you are highly sucessful in your field. There should be mutual respect for each others accomplishments.
Click to expand...

NPs/DNPs don't get anywhere close to the same level of training as physicians do. Their basic science training is extremely weak and a significant portion of their curriculum focuses on nursing theory, statistics courses, leadership courses, business management, etc, and not actual physio, pathophys, pharm, etc, which are far more relevant to clinical practice. Not only that, the avg. NP/DNP receives between 500 and 1000 hours of clinical training. Physicians, by the time they're done with med school and residency, have more than 12000.

An NP/DNP degree can be done almost entirely online. Can't say the same for med school and residency. An NP/DNP degree can be completed within 2-3 years (several BSN-DNP programs exist that can be completed in this short duration or even less). Can't say the same for med school. There are several direct-entry NP/DNP programs than can be completed within 2-3 years with no prior healthcare experience at all. So, no, getting a DNP does not require anywhere close to the same length of time as med school and residency does. Unless you're working full-time as a nurse and taking the NP/DNP courses online, spread out over several years.

NPs/DNPs aren't necessarily filling in a primary care gap. There are nursing "residencies" (which are essentially equivalent to a couple of weeks/months of a real physician residency) opening up left and right, with USF being a famous one that started a huge thread in the residency forums, in lucrative fields like cardiology, dermatology, etc. Doesn't look like APNs are interested in filling the primary care gap but, rather, are seeing primary care as a stepping stone to more lucrative specialties. Data also suggests that NPs/DNPs are filling in the role as PCPs in rural areas; they tend to be attracted to urban areas, just like physicians. Also, the idea that NPs/DNPs will save money is a little misleading considering that they're lobbying heavily to be reimbursed equally as physicians.

startswithb said:
There are many errors in this post. I will defer to Kaushik on this one. BTW, are you a DNP or head of their PR campaign?
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:laugh:

I guess I've posted too many times on this issue.
 
partysurgery2.gif
 
you are challenging the validity of calling a DNP a doctorate degree, given its rigor and clinical experience. This doesn't make holding a doctorate any less worthy of being called a doctor, but rather suggests that it just isn't worthy of being a doctorate program. Personally I feel that anyone holding a doctorate is worthy of being called a doctor, although they should probably introduce themselves to patients as being a doctor in whatever their training is in, but after that they can be referred to as just doctor. And from what i understand, this is what most healthcare workers do anyway until they just drop the title altogether and stick with first names. also some professions also seem much more likely to retain the title, from what i understand PharmDs are pretty much never referred to as Doctors in speech, same goes for physical therapists and purely academic doctors outside of an academic setting.
attachment.php
 
blehm98 said:
you are challenging the validity of calling a DNP a doctorate degree, given its rigor and clinical experience. This doesn't make holding a doctorate any less worthy of being called a doctor, but rather suggests that it just isn't worthy of being a doctorate program. Personally I feel that anyone holding a doctorate is worthy of being called a doctor, although they should probably introduce themselves to patients as being a doctor in whatever their training is in, but after that they can be referred to as just doctor. And from what i understand, this is what most healthcare workers do anyway until they just drop the title altogether and stick with first names. also some professions also seem much more likely to retain the title, from what i understand PharmDs are pretty much never referred to as Doctors in speech, same goes for physical therapists and purely academic doctors outside of an academic setting.
attachment.php
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I don't think anyone cares at all who calls themselves doctor in every day life.

It's a matter of in a hospital setting, anyone who chooses to use the term doctor and is not a physician needs to qualify their credentials, or else they are committing fraud (in many states). People understand the distinctions between medicine and psychology/PT/PhD scientists/speech therapists and so it's pretty much a non-issue for those health-care providers. The issue at hand of the doctor title really only boils down to advanced nurses who believe NP=MD. Many higher ups of those groups (AANA) believe a watered down doctorate degree is the easiest means to convince patients that they are equivalents of physicians
 
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which just comes back to my point that your issue isn't with them wanting to be called doctors, but insufficient rigor for a doctoral degree
 
blehm98 said:
which just comes back to my point that your issue isn't with them wanting to be called doctors, but insufficient rigor for a doctoral degree
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I think it is both. They are nurses, NOT doctors. You want to be called a Doc, then take your sciences, get A's, and apply to a real allopathic medical school.
 
MedProdigy said:
I think it is both. They are nurses, NOT doctors. You want to be called a Doc, then take your sciences, get A's, and apply to a real allopathic medical school.
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The D stands for doctor. Your argument is invalidated
ngbbs4c6030a9b8794.jpg
 
blehm98 said:
The D stands for doctor. Your argument is invalidated
ngbbs4c6030a9b8794.jpg
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You don't introduce yourself as Doctor so and so unless you are a physician. Period. Anyone who doesn't agree is butt hurt because of getting rejected at all allopathic medical schools.
 
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patel2 said:
NPs/DNPs don't get anywhere close to the same level of training as physicians do. Their basic science training is extremely weak and a significant portion of their curriculum focuses on nursing theory, statistics courses, leadership courses, business management, etc, and not actual physio, pathophys, pharm, etc, which are far more relevant to clinical practice. Not only that, the avg. NP/DNP receives between 500 and 1000 hours of clinical training. Physicians, by the time they're done with med school and residency, have more than 12000.
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To be fair, the behind the NP and the PA degrees was that an experienced healthcare practcioner shouldn't need as much formal training to become a provider as someone fresh out of college. Honestly there's some truth to their argument: A student can begin medical school with only a few hundred hours of shadowing, a year of almost completely irrelevant basic science classes, and a degree in Gameboy. The idea that an experienced Navy Corpsman (the origional focus group for the PA degree) or ICU nurse is just as far from being a doctor as that 22 year old college grad is condscending and makes very little sense.

The only proble I have with the NP degree is the (very) recent creation of programs requiring no prior nursing experience.
 
Perrotfish said:
To be fair, the behind the NP and the PA degrees was that an experienced healthcare practcioner shouldn't need as much formal training to become a provider as someone fresh out of college. Honestly there's some truth to their argument: A student can begin medical school with only a few hundred hours of shadowing, a year of almost completely irrelevant basic science classes, and a degree in Gameboy. The idea that an experienced Navy Corpsman (the origional focus group for the PA degree) or ICU nurse is just as far from being a doctor as that 22 year old college grad is condscending and makes very little sense.

The only proble I have with the NP degree is the (very) recent creation of programs requiring no prior nursing experience.
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i dont see any 22 year old ms-1's pushing for rights to prescribe narcotics and to treat patients with absolutely no oversight...
 
Good luck banning me, i'm behind 7 proxies!!
 
Geekchick921 said:
As it is, in most of the country advanced practice nurses cannot have their own practice, so this argument is pretty pointless.
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Ruh-roh! 28 states currently allow independent practice rights for DNP's. I'd say 56% of the country is "most" of it.
 
Slack3r said:
Ruh-roh! 28 states currently allow independent practice rights for DNP's. I'd say 56% of the country is "most" of it.
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Really? I count 11 on the pdf that Loveoforganic posted that have "No MD Involvement required", but perhaps that is just for NPs with masters degrees. If so, I was responding to the OP who said "NP" not "DNP" which I took to mean someone with an MSN, not a doctorate.
 
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