Nursing vs PA

[aimeeoum]

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Hi all, I have been pondering this for quite some time and need some input. I was Pre-med and decided that route was not for me and I do not want to spend 10-12 more years in school. However, I am looking at Nursing (NP or CRNA) or PA. I understand PA work in more general areas and if I were to be a NP, I'd want to work in Pediatrics, Women's Health or Oncology. I do not care for being able to perform surgeries. I want flexiblility and a normal 40 hr work week. I just basically want to help people and enjoy my work. I am torn between PA/NP because they seem so similar and I do not know which route to go! I need to decide quickly so I can figure out if I need to switch over to the Nursing program or not.

 

[benelswick]

You've come to the right place to get the polarized sense of things. Imagine yourself at a football game with intense rivalry....use that lens to filter the advice that follows. I've investigated both paths and my mother is an N.P. and she's an active leader in the field in terms of practice rights etc. She recomended to me the PA route due to its usually shorter educational track and its emphasis on hard clinical science that models itself after the m.d. education. The N.P. route is better suited to a relatively experienced nurse that has had time to absorb basic clinical type stuff on the job. But the nursing model of education is not without its unique strengths...doing more thorough clinician/patient interactions and integrating a more hollistic patient as human approach has won N.P.'s alot of respect and their clinical sucess is well-documented.
With regard to areas of practice both are similar with perhaps more PA's in specialized surgical type fields and more N.P.'s in general and acute care practice as well as equal doses of both in E.D.'s. The slightly higher average salaries of P.A's is probably the result of more pa' in highly billable field that involve procedures like surgery etc.
If i understand your post correctly you are an undergraduate in your second year or so and so either path is wide open to you. The master's level education is becoming the standard or rather is the standard for N.P.'s and so you would fare better pursuing a master's in either.....in fact there are even some that are dually acredited if i'm not mistaken...i'm thinking of UC Davis...anyway a decision along these lines is always and intensly personal negotiation of financial, familial, and geographical factors, etc. and of course the availability of different programs in your area. From what you've indicated either sounds like a good match for you and neither would limit you with regard to your interests. good luck on your journey!--ben.

 

[guetzow]

Dead wrong... It's exactly the opposite. PAs are known for their flexibility and working in more specialties. You were probably confused by the "History" of the profession, which is deeply rooted in primary care. There are tons of PA jobs in ALL THREE of the specialties you mentioned. Happy Hunting! 🙂

 

[adamdowannabe]

I wouldn't call a PA degree a shorter educational track, in fact I would inversely state that the PA education involves more hours of class and more hours of mandatory clinical experiences then that of NP (based on the availability for a nurse to take NP coursework 1 or 2 evenings a week, and then have flexible clinical hours accrue WHILE working full time as an RN...something that simply does not exist for a PA student)

even part time PA programs are not really "part time" as the college student knows part time to be. It's merely part time in comparison to what a PA education is, which is typically class for 6-10 hours a day, 5 days a week. (depends on the day, and the activities)

Anyone can find a job for 40 hours a week, a DR. an NP a PA.. you just need to find it, 40 hour work weeks aren't specific to anything.!

 

[PharmDr.]

I would recommend PA if your not already a nurse. If your a working RN, then NP is shorter and much more flexible. PA school will give you a better medical education, but it is much harder to gain admissions. Take micro, A&P I & II, in addition to the pre-med courses with the exception of physics 1 & 2 and org chem II. This is the basic req. that will let you apply to a lot of programs,but even still some schools (not many) req. addition pre-med courses. A lot of schools also req. general psych., and even abnormal psych. Every school is different, so check the websites. I was pre-nursing at one point and did nutrition, and developmental psych, but after more research and spending some time shadowing PA's in ortho surgery and ER, I know PA is the right choice for me. Do this and go with what feels right for you, not tv or the media and their over glamorous view of doctors. Take care

 

[aimeeoum]

Hi all, thanks a lot for the responses. I forgot to say that I just finished my freshman year (took prereqs and pre-med reqs). So I am still pretty open to either NP or PA. I am leaning more towards PA bc it follows a medicine model. But, I was thinking about doing BSN while completing PA reqs, so let's say I didn't get into PA school, I could still have a good job as an RN and have the opportunity to get my NP. I don't like the idea of having a degree in broad degree in bio or psych and not getting into PA school and not having any idea about what kind of job to get. So is the BSN to PA doable??

 

[benelswick]

Hi all, thanks a lot for the responses. I forgot to say that I just finished my freshman year (took prereqs and pre-med reqs). So I am still pretty open to either NP or PA. I am leaning more towards PA bc it follows a medicine model. But, I was thinking about doing BSN while completing PA reqs, so let's say I didn't get into PA school, I could still have a good job as an RN and have the opportunity to get my NP. I don't like the idea of having a degree in broad degree in bio or psych and not getting into PA school and not having any idea about what kind of job to get. So is the BSN to PA doable??

Yes i don't see any reason why that would not be a nice option especially considering that as you said you've already completed the PA prereq's.

 

[guetzow]

Good option, yes. Lots of RN jobs, in case the PA thing doesn't work out.

 

[Sinnman]

I think you should go to medical school.

Seriously, there is nothing worse than an NP or PA that really wanted to go to medical school but took the "easy route" and went to PA or NP school. It's just bad for everyone. You will regret your decision later in life (trust me on this one). You are also taking a seat away from someone who really wants to be a NP or PA.

Look at it this way (this is what finally made me go back to medical school), if you are young, and I'm assuming you are because you’re still in college, the time is going to pass whether you are in medical school or in PA school, working as a doctor or a NP. Life does not stop because you are in medical school or residency (although it does seem like it at times ). You're not in a black hole. When you're 35 would you rather be a nurse practitioner or an attending physician? You still would have the majority of you life ahead of you. Don't make a mistake because you’re intimidated by the number of years of training. I went back to medical school after 10 years of convincing myself I would be happy and better off as an NP and I don't regret it one bit. I only wish I did it when I was 22.

As to your first question, IF you still don't want to go to medical school, I'd definitely go to PA school. In my experience, and I've worked with a bunch of both, they are superior clinically and much more sought after by physicians.

 

[deleted92121]

I am a Junior (time flies.. 😱) and have some pre-reqs for PA under my belt. I was considering MD/DO school for a good while, but decided against it because it would just be stroking my ego. Plus, I want something with less schooling, more free-time, etc. Yet, I won't mind having call or having to round patients early in the morning or getting an emergency at 2 a.m. Therefore, I have narrowed my choice down to PA or NP.

I would like to work in the ED, IM, Hospice, or some community work. From my research, the PA would be best-suited for the ED or IM position, but either NP or PA would do fine in both.

My question is, which should I choose for having moderate to high autonomy, good pay, and the best chance to move from one specialty to another or to moonlight in say hospice when I am not working in the ED?

dxu

 

[RAMPA]

I am a Junior (time flies.. 😱) and have some pre-reqs for PA under my belt. I was considering MD/DO school for a good while, but decided against it because it would just be stroking my ego. Plus, I want something with less schooling, more free-time, etc. Yet, I won't mind having call or having to round patients early in the morning or getting an emergency at 2 a.m. Therefore, I have narrowed my choice down to PA or NP.

I would like to work in the ED, IM, Hospice, or some community work. From my research, the PA would be best-suited for the ED or IM position, but either NP or PA would do fine in both.

My question is, which should I choose for having moderate to high autonomy, good pay, and the best chance to move from one specialty to another or to moonlight in say hospice when I am not working in the ED?

dxu

PA mos def, FNP close second

moderate to high autonomy comes with experience and relationship w/ supervising aka collaborating MD, not with title

 

[guetzow]

Pa 🙂

 

[BIS]

Will admit a few things. First Im a RN and CRNA student and take many classes with PA's at my program. I love the PA's and know for sure that they have a way more intense didactic education than the majority of NP programs. The clinical phases are comparable as most are following attending MD's around the whole day.

However depending on what nursing back ground the RN comes from there is freq a rather large experience gap b/t PA's and NP's. For instance I know NP's that have been CVICU nurses for 5-10yrs and manage the sickest of the sick pts including VADS, open chests and on tons of devices. New PA students, though bright, largely have little to no experience. It will take years for the PA to develop the critical thinking level that these seasoned ICU RN's that are now NP's have.

CRNA school is a whole different ball game though in my program we take almost all our basic sciences with PAs.

We are expected to be able the interpret ECG's, hemodynamic data ect b/f we even enter the program so of course the experience gap is huge. Also the PA's/NP's have more diverse interest some wanting to go into medicine, surgery, ER, Derm ect ect. so not all are really into the hemodynamic instability and advanced monitoring and assessment that accommapanies anesthetists day in and day out.

CRNA/NP/PA they are all great professions with plentiful jobs with solid salaries. For more interest in CRNA's/NP's check out the allnurses.com Nurse Anesthetist or NP forums. they will give way more insight than this one

 

[benelswick]

Yep. what the above poster said is important to consider because the N.P. anesthesiology field is a very specific field that is open to nurses through a stepwise master's education that predicates critical care nursing experience. It is one the most autonomous and lucrative specialties that a mid level care provider can execute and if you are interested in it then a nursing degree would be neceesary to open that door.
Although the poster made good points about the experience of nurses who turn to N.P. after years in the field...this is an older trend and there seems to be alot more new nursing grads segwaying directly into n.p. programs...so i'm not sure what the future will be for the more traditional experience of N.P. grads.
Futhermore i would caution the newcomers to look at more non-partisan information about these careers than a website like all-nurses.com or whatever...not that they can't benefit from the inside scoop but its hard for someone not in healthcare to understand the politics and the acculturation process of a field like nursing which maintains its groupthink by brute force.--Ben.

 

[guetzow]

Mid-Level is great for diversity 🙂

 

[BIS]

Yep. what the above poster said is important to consider because the N.P. anesthesiology field is a very specific field that is open to nurses through a stepwise master's education that predicates critical care nursing experience. It is one the most autonomous and lucrative specialties that a mid level care provider can execute and if you are interested in it then a nursing degree would be neceesary to open that door.
Although the poster made good points about the experience of nurses who turn to N.P. after years in the field...this is an older trend and there seems to be alot more new nursing grads segwaying directly into n.p. programs...so i'm not sure what the future will be for the more traditional experience of N.P. grads.
Futhermore i would caution the newcomers to look at more non-partisan information about these careers than a website like all-nurses.com or whatever...not that they can't benefit from the inside scoop but its hard for someone not in healthcare to understand the politics and the acculturation process of a field like nursing which maintains its groupthink by brute force.--Ben.

There is no such thing as a NP Nurse Anesthesiologists. We are Certified Registerd Nurse Anesthetists and are not only the most lucrative, autonomous and influencial mid-level provider we are also the oldese having documented Nurse Anesthetists as far back as 1877.

That aside I an comparing NP's to PA's here. You may be right about a trend for younger NP's but that is a huge trend in the PA world also. Not one of 35 PA's in the program I was speaking about has any experience.

Politics is politics and sadly is a major player in healthcare today. Without political clout no matter what profession you are in the medical heirarchy will try to screw you however they can. PA's are just starting to gain a lobbying force so you just wait and see.

 

[guetzow]

More and more programs are like this. Sad, but true. The "Traditional" PA applicant (Quickly becoming a thing of the past), was in his/her ealry 30s, with an "average" of Five years clinical experience. 85% of the folks in my class fit the experience part, many of us seasoned therapists and RNs. I think the "Rush to degree" is a common phenomenon in both (NP/PA) fields.... However, it is interesting to note that perhaps the experience argument may not hold much water. How much experience for example, did an MD have before he/she went to med school?

 

[rn29306]

There is no such thing as a NP Nurse Anesthesiologists.

You beat me to it. 👍

 

[Raven Feather]

More and more programs are like this. Sad, but true. The "Traditional" PA applicant (Quickly becoming a thing of the past), was in his/her ealry 30s, with an "average" of Five years clinical experience. 85% of the folks in my class fit the experience part, many of us seasoned therapists and RNs. I think the "Rush to degree" is a common phenomenon in both (NP/PA) fields.... However, it is interesting to note that perhaps the experience argument may not hold much water. How much experience for example, did an MD have before he/she went to med school?

You bring up a valid point, however, NP and PA programs do not compare to the clinical hours put in from years 3 and 4 of med school then residency leading to full licensure for physicians. I think there's where their experience comes from vs. those without experience going NP/PA.

 

[Happy613]

On my last rotation, there were 2 med students and 2 pa students. We were essentially treated the same, and expected to carry the same amount of patients.

All of us where basically finishing our third year of school, but the pa students were going on to jobs and we were going on to 4th year rotations.

The OP brought up the notion of "time." Its true that an MD or DO takes longer, but if you do a residency in peds, IM or FP it will take you 4 more years total. That is you will be 25 and working as a PA or 29 and working as an attending Physician.

Don't go to med school because you think its the only way to help people, its not. However don't not go because you think you are going to be too old when you finish. Good luck!

You bring up a valid point, however, NP and PA programs do not compare to the clinical hours put in from years 3 and 4 of med school then residency leading to full licensure for physicians. I think there's where their experience comes from vs. those without experience going NP/PA.

 

[guetzow]

Totally agree... I am not part of the recent delusional ground-swell belittleing MD's seen around here. However, you must also be aware that traditionally, and by definition, PAs follow the scope of practice of their MD. This means that by definition, there will be a learning curve 'after' graduation because: 1) Every practice setting is different, 2) PA's follow the medical model, which makes it easier to adapt to different practices (And Specialties, of course...), 3) It is this tradition of flexibility that makes PAs valuable in any particular practice, 4) The learning curve in a new practice is clinical experience extremely relevent to that practice, and finally, 5) Despite the recent unfortunate watering down of experience standards for PA school admission, many PA applicants still do do have relevant clinical experience before PA scool (RTs, EMTs, Paramedics, PTs, RNs, LVNs, etc).

 

[BIS]

Totally agree... I am not part of the recent delusional ground-swell belittleing MD's seen around here. However, you must also be aware that traditionally, and by definition, PAs follow the scope of practice of their MD. This means that by definition, there will be a learning curve 'after' graduation because: 1) Every practice setting is different, 2) PA's follow the medical model, which makes it easier to adapt to different practices (And Specialties, of course...), 3) It is this tradition of flexibility that makes PAs valuable in any particular practice, 4) The learning curve in a new practice is clinical experience extremely relevent to that practice, and finally, 5) Despite the recent unfortunate watering down of experience standards for PA school admission, many PA applicants still do do have relevant clinical experience before PA scool (RTs, EMTs, Paramedics, PTs, RNs, LVNs, etc).

This whole medical model aurgument is BS. Can you please explain to me the medical model way of doing things. Fact is PA's are following and learning from the same exact MD attending that the NP is following.

They say that crap about CRNA and the medical model. I train at a CRNA program that is within an anesthesia residency. We are medical model what ever that may be to the max. Look both NP and PA are great professions and experience in both applicant pools is not what it used to be. But regarding PA's the applicant pool's experience is much more watered down than the NP programs. Or at least in the city that I live and train in. You just want compare the NP students that I worked with as a RN in the Cardiothoracic ICU. These are top notch RN's with 5-10 yrs experiencethat can manage just about any cardiac or vascular surgery pt with any device know to man. These pts are severly unstable, bleeding, on every inotrope and pressor you can think of. The PA student wont even even be able to manage this pt right out of school. It takes time and experience to manage this type of multi organ dysfunction pt receiving multple life sustaiing drugs of devices. You can memorize all the fact and understand as many concepts as you want but util you are in an impending disasteroue situation and worked thru it you have no clue.

Please answer honestly who do you want to manage your parent after their CAB of hrt transplant. A NP with 5 years experience in dealing with this pt population of a PA with 0. Like I said both are great. Id agree that most PA programs probrably have a more solid science back ground than most NP programs. But many times there is a a large experience gap that can be bridged by memorizing crap out of a book.

 

[deleted6669]

Please answer honestly who do you want to manage your parent after their CAB of hrt transplant. A NP with 5 years experience in dealing with this pt population of a PA with 0. Like I said both are great. Id agree that most PA programs probrably have a more solid science back ground than most NP programs. But many times there is a a large experience gap that can be bridged by memorizing crap out of a book.

this could also be asked the other way:
which pt do you want evaluating your chest pain in a small rural e.d.-
the paramedic for 10 yrs who became a pa or the direct entry np who has no nursing experience and a degree in history ? it plays both ways- it really depends on the individual.

 

[Jengirl18]

I would advise anyone who is interested in the medical model vs nursing model to look at the curriculums of NP and PA. That is where you will see the difference. And even though the same MD attending pimps the PA and NP, the PA will have already had a full semester of radiology taugh by a Radiologist during PA school, and this would give them a heads up. 😀

 

[possibilitz]

Unfortunately, I am an individual having trouble with that experience gap. I graduated August 2005 with a BS in Kinesiology (3 yrs; 4.00GPA). I have since been working as a Physical Therapy Technician, a Personal Trainer, and a Swim Instructor. I applied to a PA program and went through the interview process, only to be denied. I really think it was due to my lack of "medical experience." These postings, here, support the exact reason why I did not get in (or so I think). I agree with the statement that I would rather someone with more experience to take care of ANYONE, than someone like me who is great with the text, but lacks that situational intuition, learned from clinical experience.

Now, being where I am in life (I am very young), I am struggling to figure out just where to go. I love yoga and hollistic healing; I am very active and want to use health promotion and disease prevention in whatever I do. Nursing is hollistic geared; and the PA school I applied to is as well. I love building relationships with people -- That is one of the primary reasons I would prefer NOT to be a MD/DO (other than the fact that I would enjoy the fluidity of moving in and out of the health care's different fields as a RN/PA). If anyone has any advise for me, I would really appreciate it.

Furthermore, I have been reasearching Naturopathic Doctor schools... where N.D's are more likely to be one on one with their patients for an hour or so, and focus mainly on keeping health and preventing disease. I realize there are a lot of heavy opinions out there about Naturopaths, eventhough, I honestly think they are on to something... considering the fact that the general public seems to be getting sick of "being drugged." Any advise here? (I know it's a bit off thread topic)

 

[BIS]

I would advise anyone who is interested in the medical model vs nursing model to look at the curriculums of NP and PA. That is where you will see the difference. And even though the same MD attending pimps the PA and NP, the PA will have already had a full semester of radiology taugh by a Radiologist during PA school, and this would give them a heads up. 😀

I took radiology with the PAs in my CRNA program. yes an entire block taught by tenured radiologist. He was great. Like I said PA's probrably do get a more solid didactic education.

 

[deleted6669]

I took radiology with the PAs in my CRNA program. yes an entire block taught by tenured radiologist. He was great. Like I said PA's probrably do get a more solid didactic education.

crna education is MUCH more intesnse than np education.....I have lots of respect for the crna folks, it's a lot of complex material in a short time....probably harder than an avg pa program. in all fairness degree of dificulty probably goes md/do> crna/aa> pa>np>rn
as you go from md/do down the chain above to rn you add fluff at every step and remove substance of clinical importance and replace it with feel good material.

 

[MacGyver]

On my last rotation, there were 2 med students and 2 pa students. We were essentially treated the same, and expected to carry the same amount of patients.

All of us where basically finishing our third year of school, but the pa students were going on to jobs and we were going on to 4th year rotations.

PA schools are 2 years long, not 3 years.

If you believe that PA students are equivalent to med students during the MS3 rotations, then thats an absolutely damning indictment of either your medical school in particular, or the medical education system in general.

I would write your med school administration and ask why you are being extorted to the tune of 20k tuition bill for an extra year of schooling thats absolutely irrelevant to clinical practice.

If PA students are in fact treated EXACTLY like 3rd year med students, that tells me the extra year you spent in school was an absolute waste of time and money.

 

[rn29306]

crna education is MUCH more intesnse than np education.....I have lots of respect for the crna folks, it's a lot of complex material in a short time....probably harder than an avg pa program. in all fairness degree of dificulty probably goes md/do> crna/aa> pa>np>rn
as you go from md/do down the chain above to rn you add fluff at every step and remove substance of clinical importance and replace it with feel good material.

Thanks emedpa! 👍 Probably one of the nicest compliments the CRNA profession has gotten on this board to date.

Man do I miss EMS. A medic / medic team came and picked up my neighbor this evening. It was hard not to assist them more than I did. I wonder if my old EMS company in Atlanta will take me back between CRNA grad in August and receiving boards? hmmmmmm.

 

[rn29306]

PA schools are 2 years long, not 3 years.

If you believe that PA students are equivalent to med students during the MS3 rotations, then thats an absolutely damning indictment of either your medical school in particular, or the medical education system in general.

I would write your med school administration and ask why you are being extorted to the tune of 20k tuition bill for an extra year of schooling thats absolutely irrelevant to clinical practice.

If PA students are in fact treated EXACTLY like 3rd year med students, that tells me the extra year you spent in school was an absolute waste of time and money.

You are like an uncontrolled 3 y/o with ADHD off his medication.

Just sit back and watch, 'cause you know its going to happen.

It's so easy to get you going that it really isn't even entertaining after a while.

 

[Chronic Student]

PA student here,

Most PA schools are more than 2 years and less than three years. If you were to do a little research than you would find that they run from around 26 months to 32 months or so.

I have been treated exactly like the medical students on the vast majority of my rotations. In fact, I had a chief resident get in my face yesterday when I introduced myself as one of the PA students.

She specifically said, "I could care less what kind of a student you are, you're just a student and here to learn".

At least a third of my evaluations state that I knew more than most of the fourth year med students.

This is not bragging, I simply have 10+ years of health care experience as a scrub tech, clinical laboratory scientist and EMT. I don't think I'm better than they are, just more experienced and yes, I realize I'm the exception rather than the rule.

In contrast, I am constantly humbled by the amount of background the med students have in biochemical pathways, histology and pathology in general.

By the way, I can guarantee you that many, many times during your education you will be humbled by nurses, PA's, NP's, scrub techs and janitors.

Just remember, when you stick your neck out and make comments like that god fells obliged to humble you.

-Mike

 

[Gentle_Touch]

I gear more towards PAs but every not specialty need for a PA in the job market, right? For example, Ophthalmology, Radiology, etc.. These dept rather have a Tech do the work.

 

[guetzow]

Radiology is a field wide open to PAs, with many new jobs. One of my former classmates, who was previously a rad tech, is now a rad PA (Yet one more reason why prior health care experience is relevant for a PA). The same is true for sleep medicine. Many new jobs open for PAs here, too. Don't assume that if it's a specialty that has techs, the PA will be utilized in the tech role. PAs practice medicine. Unlike some fields (RN, some overzealous PTs), they do not seek to supplant existing professions.

 

[Monika]

I gear more towards PAs but every not specialty need for a PA in the job market, right? For example, Ophthalmology, Radiology, etc.. These dept rather have a Tech do the work.

Not true.

This was published in the Journal of Vascular and Interventional Radiology last year:
Physician Assistants in Interventional Radiology Practice

Here's an article from the American Academy of Physician Assistants:
Physician Assistants and Radiology

One of my former classmates works in the Opthalmology service at one of the top rated hospitals in the Texas Medical Center.

 

[Jengirl18]

Yep,
A guy graduated last year in my PA program and now works in Interventional Radiology starting at 90,000 as a PA. One of our adjunct professors works as a PA in Ocular Trauma at a well known eye institute.

 

[DNP student]

Unlike some fields (RN, some overzealous PTs), they do not seek to supplant existing professions.

I can't believe how horribly some of you seem to feel towards nurses. I've had great working relationships with most all of the PA's, MD's, and NP's I've worked with. It all depends on how hard you work and how well you care for the patients (after all, isn't that the bottom line).

I think the route (PA or NP) has more to do with personal feeling than education. Even the NP programs that allow one to go directly from BSN to NP still have lots of clinical time, and most of those students work in nursing while in school. Contrary to what some believe, work time does not replace supervised clinical time in NP school.

 

[guetzow]

................

 

[guetzow]

They had fond memories of working with PAs as RNs, and decided to be PAs too. A good NP friend of mine wishes he'd gone to PA school. He was an RN educator before practicing and had lots of horror stories to tell (Re: 'Faculty', and his Practice as well). Generally, he was profoundly irritated by Nursing Theory, and preferred the PA Medical Model. As an RT over the years, working in several hospitals(In different cities/states), I had many experiences with RNs yanking tubes, playing with vents and telling RTs how to manage patients. Many Docs still use RNs (Illegally) as mid-levels (I have first hand knowledge of this). It's best not to shoot the messenger. 'Caring' for patients and 'working hard' are not a competition. Cleaning (Borderline) house would be much more productive than giving some of these folks a free pass as victims. It's unfortunate that the RN profession has more of it's fair share of these types, but we all know that. This is nothing new. Even the RNs who went to PA school knew that. Acting shocked is just silly.

 

[EMDream]

I wouldn't call a PA degree a shorter educational track, in fact I would inversely state that the PA education involves more hours of class and more hours of mandatory clinical experiences then that of NP (based on the availability for a nurse to take NP coursework 1 or 2 evenings a week, and then have flexible clinical hours accrue WHILE working full time as an RN...something that simply does not exist for a PA student)

I picked PA because it was a faster track for me. IT depends on the situation, if you're half way done your BS in Biology and decide on being a mid level which happens pretty often I think, PA seems logical, you don't have to go back and start a new degree, you can go straight for the masters when you're done, as long as you've gotten some xp as an EMT. Or in my case switch over to a BS/MSogram in which you're half done already by the time you switch.

I really thin that NP is for nurses not people who want to jump in race through their RN and get their NP. I think they should get the RN work a few years and then do NP, simply because NP doesn't seem to have
the didactic and rotation pace of PA school because they assume that you've already been through your paces as a clinical RN and just build on it.

 

[EMDream]

I can't believe how horribly some of you seem to feel towards nurses. I've had great working relationships with most all of the PA's, MD's, and NP's I've worked with. It all depends on how hard you work and how well you care for the patients (after all, isn't that the bottom line).

I think the route (PA or NP) has more to do with personal feeling than education. Even the NP programs that allow one to go directly from BSN to NP still have lots of clinical time, and most of those students work in nursing while in school. Contrary to what some believe, work time does not replace supervised clinical time in NP school.

I'm a PA student in my rotations right now and I agree that there seems to be this "PA snottiness" towards nurses and NP's. I find it incredibly stupid and I wonder if it stems from some of PA's feeling slightly inadequate because they aren't MD's. There's no other reason to try and one up an equal profession. They each have a unique educational process that might lend to unique perspectives as clinicans NP's more hollistic and patient oriented, PA's more science based? I don't even know.I think the professions produce exactly EQUAL clinicians which is why our SCOPE is equal. My first rotation I worked with a NP a low and he was amazing! We need to band together, NP's and PA's and the biggest problem we face is the animosity between these two professions. We need to support each other and promote the mid level professions as a TEAM. It's rare that people will get jobs over being a NP or PA, and that's simple a misguided approach by an employer to employ one over the other. We should be regarded as mid levels that just took a different route to get there and considered individually.

😡

I think this is my only rant on this and it probably should be my last. I know it was inflammatory with the wishful thinking PA comment, but sorry, it's the only reason I can think of for the consistent barely concealed NP downing that I see.

 

[guetzow]

What part of "some" of these folks ' don't you get? ...It is what it is... No need for knee-jerk reactions. The nurse in my clinic is tops, and I respect nurses that act like team players as well (Perhaps you should re-read my post...). Furthermore, I made no references to NPs, only RNs, as my 'Friend' in the example was an NP (Again, re-read the post). However, since you mention it, their 'are' practice differences between NPs and PAs (Something they should have taught you in school). Generally, NP licenses are "Inclusive", meaning their must be some type of protocol or "List" reguarding what the NP 'can' do. As the PA follows the Medical Model (Not a protocol), the PA license is "Exclusive", meaning it must list what the PA 'Cannot' do (Usually a relatively short list). i.e.- the NPs are much more regulated. This is very significant, as it accounts for the superior "flexibility" of PA practice possibilities(Hence, PAs have been found in more specialties for a much longer period of time. Yes, this is changing - As NPs catch up with specialty 'protocols' - but what I have just described is the reason "Why" it has been this way up until recently). This is Fact, which can be verified by any NP who's been around for awhile. You should be proud that you are in a profession that follows the medical model, allowing you flexibility in your own medical independent decisions /not protocols, and is not attempting to shove a Doctorate down your throat (Thereby making you Less marketable when demanding equal/increased reimbursement for the "D". Ask your NP buddy about that one...). These are some of the reasons (And nursing theory), that drove my "NP Friend" batty about his own profession. You should be thankful some of your anti-PA remarks did not slip out in your interview, as you would likely not be in rotations now (PA's envying MDs?) The only 'snotty' PAs I've ever seen were the younger, less mature ones with nill experience (Including life experience), who basically got in on GPA alone. They make crummy clinicians because they don't have the life experience to deal with people in a myriad of different situations. They are no different than snotty RNs, or snotty MDs, or snotty (Insert snotty person). I better stop before I hear from the ASLU (American Snotty Liberties Union).

 

[EMDream]

What part of "some" of these folks ' don't you get? ...It is what it is... No need for knee-jerk reactions. The nurse in my clinic is tops, and I respect nurses that act like team players as well (Perhaps you should re-read my post...). Furthermore, I made no references to NPs, only RNs, as my 'Friend' in the example was an NP (Again, re-read the post). However, since you mention it, their 'are' practice differences between NPs and PAs (Something they should have taught you in school). Generally, NP licenses are "Inclusive", meaning their must be some type of protocol or "List" reguarding what the NP 'can' do. As the PA follows the Medical Model (Not a protocol), the PA license is "Exclusive", meaning it must list what the PA 'Cannot' do (Usually a relatively short list). i.e.- the NPs are much more regulated. This is very significant, as it accounts for the superior "flexibility" of PA practice possibilities(Hence, PAs have been found in more specialties for a much longer period of time. Yes, this is changing - As NPs catch up with specialty 'protocols' - but what I have just described is the reason "Why" it has been this way up until recently). This is Fact, which can be verified by any NP who's been around for awhile. You should be proud that you are in a profession that follows the medical model, allowing you flexibility in your own medical independent decisions /not protocols, and is not attempting to shove a Doctorate down your throat (Thereby making you Less marketable when demanding equal/increased reimbursement for the "D". Ask your NP buddy about that one...). These are some of the reasons (And nursing theory), that drove my "NP Friend" batty about his own profession. You should be thankful some of your anti-PA remarks did not slip out in your interview, as you would likely not be in rotations now (PA's envying MDs?) The only 'snotty' PAs I've ever seen were the younger, less mature ones with nill experience (Including life experience), who basically got in on GPA alone. They make crummy clinicians because they don't have the life experience to deal with people in a myriad of different situations. They are no different than snotty RNs, or snotty MDs, or snotty (Insert snotty person). I better stop before I hear from the ASLU (American Snotty Liberties Union).

I'm not sure that I actually read your initial post, I was just agreeing that a lot of PA/PA students I've encountered in MY personal experience MY EXPERIENCE, *NOT* YOURS.
Maybe I chose the wrong profession and shouldn't be on rotations since
I found 90% of my class irritatingly stuck up and bashing NP's/MD's while screaming I COULD HAVE GONE TO MED SCHOOL BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO. If I'd known that was the PA community I would be entering I probably would have run screaming. But since I'm not really around my classmates anymore and my rotations have been mostly with MD's I've been fairly content, after all it's the patients I serve not the fragile ego of the PA profession. I could care less what anyone things of my supposedly ANTI PAness. I'm not anti PA I'm anti "PAttitude." Can you think of a good reason to insult NP's and bash them? I think it's fair to make a nasty remark about people who have no qualms insulting a profession that in practice is virtually the same unless they a) have little weenies 2) feel inferior 3) are just plain stupid @$$holes. Blah blah inclusive lists exclusive lists ... but what about how NP's are lisenced versus us. Don't we have less flexibility there? And couldn't a NP be given a huge scope by including MANY things and a PA be given a narrow scope by excluding many things? I have never seen a NP and PA practicing the same area of medicine at the same place with a greater or lesser scope because of what you're talking about. Perhaps they'll cover that in my later professional seminar before I graduate.I don't think PA's suck or that NP's are better. I think we're equals, and that is NOT anti PA. 😛

 

[guetzow]

Nailed that one on the head!












People screaming about med school???....... Once again (For the reading impaired), these folks tend to be..... "The only 'snotty' PAs I've ever seen were the younger, less mature ones with nill experience (Including life experience), who basically got in on GPA alone. They make crummy clinicians because they don't have the life experience to deal with people in a myriad of different situations."

 

[deleted6669]

"but what about how NP's are lisenced versus us. Don't we have less flexibility there? And couldn't a NP be given a huge scope by including MANY things and a PA be given a narrow scope by excluding many things? I have never seen a NP and PA practicing the same area of medicine at the same place with a greater or lesser scope because of what you're talking about. Perhaps they'll cover that in my later professional seminar before I graduate.I don't think PA's suck or that NP's are better. I think we're equals, and that is NOT anti PA. 😛"

fyi-many states license pa's. I have a license to practice medicine as a physician assistant.
I do work in a facility that uses np's only in fast track and pa's in fast track and the main er. I have also worked in places that use them interchangeably.
as a pa you should recognize that you will have significantly more clinical time than an np(2200 hrs vs 500-800). I'm not saying that makes us better, I'm saying that makes us different...and sometimes different is good......

 

[FNP2B]

"but what about how NP's are lisenced versus us. Don't we have less flexibility there? And couldn't a NP be given a huge scope by including MANY things and a PA be given a narrow scope by excluding many things? I have never seen a NP and PA practicing the same area of medicine at the same place with a greater or lesser scope because of what you're talking about. Perhaps they'll cover that in my later professional seminar before I graduate.I don't think PA's suck or that NP's are better. I think we're equals, and that is NOT anti PA. 😛"

fyi-many states license pa's. I have a license to practice medicine as a physician assistant.
I do work in a facility that uses np's only in fast track and pa's in fast track and the main er. I have also worked in places that use them interchangeably.
as a pa you should recognize that you will have significantly more clinical time than an np(2200 hrs vs 500-800). I'm not saying that makes us better, I'm saying that makes us different...and sometimes different is good......

EMEDPA, I have to say I always enjoy reading your post and responses...but I always notice your same response to the NP vs. PA clinical hours and I have a question for you regarding just that.

I have seen your take on the clinical hours NP vs. PA
Here is mine and if you see anything off please correct me.

ERNP(emergency med NP)= 700-900hrs dedicated to emergency med
PA(emergency med)= maybe 100hrs dedicated to emergency med

PNP(pediatric NP)= 700-900 hrs dedicated to pediatrics
PA(pediatric)= maybe 100 hrs

CNM(nurse midwife)= 700-900 hrs dedicated to ob/gyn
PA(ob/gyn)= maybe 100 hrs

NNP(neonatal NP)= 700-900 hrs dedicated to neonatology
PA(neonatal)= maybe 100hrs

So would it be correct to say if some one wanted to specialize they would receive a more in-depth and comprehensive training from an NP program. I am only speaking of school clinical hrs, nothing past the actual program.
FYI
I myself am also stuck in the valley of decision regarding which field to pursue.

 

[EMDream]

Nailed that one on the head!


People screaming about med school???....... Once again (For the reading impaired), these folks tend to be..... "The only 'snotty' PAs I've ever seen were the younger, less mature ones with nill experience (Including life experience), who basically got in on GPA alone. They make crummy clinicians because they don't have the life experience to deal with people in a myriad of different situations."

They weren't the younger ones actually that's the kicker. Most were over 30 with a lot of health experience (EMT, MA, medics). The young ones were jsut elated to be in the profession at all and proud to be there instead of comparing and bashing.

You're right, I sure shouldn't be a PA, since my concern is with ACTUAL patient care not who went through what schooling to get where and what a PA vs a NP does. How silly!!

 

[DNP student]

I somewhat agree with the clinical hours difference if you are only talking about NP school. Many people forget that NPs started as RNs with 750-1000 hours of clinical in RN school, plus the on-the-job experience as an RN prior to NP school. Personally, I think when that is included, the hours are the same. NPs go to NP school with many more clinical hours already under their belt.

 

[Chronic Student]

Well if we're gonna go that direction than we can add my 6 years as a scrub tech and 2 years as a blood banker (MT) and 1000's of hours as an EMT.

My point is that while not required at all schools, many PA's have considerable expereince in other healthcare fields and some schools require many hundreds of hours of healthcare experience before even applying.

-Mike

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Chronic

While that may have been true 10 years ago, its not today. The majority of PA students entering PA school have little or no healthcare experience outside volunteering. All of the origional rules of admission that expected previous healthcare experience have gone "soft" to attract more students (its about money ot the schools)

Its sad and it happens with everything.

Well if we're gonna go that direction than we can add my 6 years as a scrub tech and 2 years as a blood banker (MT) and 1000's of hours as an EMT.

My point is that while not required at all schools, many PA's have considerable expereince in other healthcare fields and some schools require many hundreds of hours of healthcare experience before even applying.

-Mike

 

[Chronic Student]

Granted MM.

I was just trying to make a point that there are a fair amount (greater than half in my class) of people who came in with some medical knowledge (PT,RT, CLS, EMT, RN, etc). I am fully aware of the fact that my profession has diverged from what it started out to be in terms of requiring experience prior to matriculation.

In addition, the hours spent as an RN are spent doing things that RN's do and are most assuredly experience and I am never one to knock experience. However, the approach a midlevel provider takes and what RN's do on the job may have some overlap but, they are not the same and do not equate in terms of clinical hours.

-Mike