NY com vs AUC

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

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for those of you that think DO is better than the big 4 caribs check the match lists, they say about all of it. Also yes many in the carib don't make it but that isn't any fault of the school's, it's of the students for not applying themselves. I have yet to see anyone who truly applied themselves fail out.

Ross-- http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm
AUC -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html
SGU -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

compare those to one of the biggest DO programs

http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2010_phl.html

not that much different and a larger % of carib placements were better known places than PCOM. Just saying to all those that think 100% hands down DO > Carib MD do some research. It's the person not the school when you are Carib MD OR DO now and days.

A match list does very little to tell us anything. For example, person has a strong desire to be a pediatrician and has a 260 step 1. Does this mean that she settled for a bad residency? or personal preference? The end result is that going to a DO schools will be significantly more helpful than a carib school.
Also I hope you do realize ACGME is revamping the match system. They are pushing out FMG's and making them fight for the scraps. "DO's are considered more desirable to the ACGME in this system than FMG's."

Anyways looking over the match lists I'm seeing DO's landing significantly better programs than the Caribs.

 

[livedie]

for those of you that think DO is better than the big 4 caribs check the match lists, they say about all of it. Also yes many in the carib don't make it but that isn't any fault of the school's, it's of the students for not applying themselves. I have yet to see anyone who truly applied themselves fail out.

Ross-- http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm
AUC -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html
SGU -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

compare those to one of the biggest DO programs

http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2010_phl.html

not that much different and a larger % of carib placements were better known places than PCOM. Just saying to all those that think 100% hands down DO > Carib MD do some research. It's the person not the school when you are Carib MD OR DO now and days.

How many students enter a Carib school? I think that is a better analysis. For example if you start off with 200 students, but only 100 graduate and then of that 100, 75 gets a residency isn't that bad?

Another scenerio is the first time pass rates of the boards. What percentage of students actually take it and pass it on time?

 

[UBCvan]

all these posts from carib people are like you own a Hyundai and you insist it's a BMW.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Don't have time to really break it down at, but caribbeean match lists are notoriously deceiving. It doesn't tell you how long it took these students to match, how many even made it to the match phase, the huge number of students that go into "undesirable" fields compared to the one who matched surg after doing a year of research, not matching another year, etc. DO is a far, far better choice as far as matching and specializing are concerned ... Really not much argument.

 

[DocEspana]

for those of you that think DO is better than the big 4 caribs check the match lists, they say about all of it. Also yes many in the carib don't make it but that isn't any fault of the school's, it's of the students for not applying themselves. I have yet to see anyone who truly applied themselves fail out.

Ross-- http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm
AUC -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html
SGU -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

compare those to one of the biggest DO programs

http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2010_phl.html

not that much different and a larger % of carib placements were better known places than PCOM. Just saying to all those that think 100% hands down DO > Carib MD do some research. It's the person not the school when you are Carib MD OR DO now and days.

.... Ross lists more residents on that list than they have first year students..... Lets add in that Ross is well known for a cutdown based on an estoteric GPA (2.75). So I'm really interested to know how they not only *didn't lose a single person* but gained an additional 50-100 between year 1 and PGY1. (yes, i'm aware that graduates a few years removed from dipoma could attest for some of it... but not *That* much of it)

I get a feeling that the numbers might be a *little* cooked.

le sigh.

 

[NurWollen]

all these posts from carib people are like you own a Hyundai and you insist it's a BMW.

Or better yet like the guy who openly admits he owns a Hyundai and insists it's better than a BMW.

 

[munchymanRX]

All a match list will tell you about a school is where their students wanted to go.
Also, FMGs are going to be squeezed out by the new improved match system in the next few years (when most of us posting here will be graduating and applying for the match).

If you want to practice in the U.S., don't leave the U.S. for medical school. End of story. The Caribs are just fine if you want to practice elsewhere.

 

[klm2011]

With all the huge egos flying around in here, you’d think this was a forum for US allopathic students. It’s always funny to watch the D.O’s mock the Caribs as if they aren’t on the same level.

I went to that ValueMD link, and saw plenty of people posting silly things. But the funniest by far has to be the D.O. bragging about his high rise and the money he’s making, even going so far as to admit that he was an average student at best.

If we’re going to paint all Carib students with one brush, let’s be sure to do the same for D.O.’s as well.

 

[DocEspana]

Lets play a number game. Number of *reported* residents at Ross: 667.
number that matched into ANYTHING that isnt ER/IM/Peds/GenSurg/FamMed/Psych (aka the ones everyone says are 'less desirable and IMG-friendly', as well as, besides surgery, being low paying by doctor standards): 67. So a 10% rate.

The majority of those 67? ObGyn, with 28. I had to count it in their favor since as much as it is a field that is generally considered 'either you loved it all your life, or you got stuck with it as a last option', its technically not on the list of 'IMG fields' i've heard kicked around.

lets play the same game for PCOM. 35 specialty spots for 204 students. Thats a 17% rate. Lets also add in that PCOM was created with the *purpose* of making family medicine doctors. Not so much with the overseas where I imagine most people dream of some specialty or surgery at first.

TCOM? 23 out of 108. also 17%.
MSU? 26 out of 133. 19.5%
Ga-PCOM? 16 out of 57 (their list is incomplete. full class would be another 12 people ). 28%
CCOM? 37 out of 173. 21.4%

 

[DoctorMedic]

A match list does very little to tell us anything. For example, person has a strong desire to be a pediatrician and has a 260 step 1. Does this mean that she settled for a bad residency? or personal preference? The end result is that going to a DO schools will be significantly more helpful than a carib school.

How do you know DO is better than carib when the match lists are very comparable? My point in posting that was to show that if desired Carib MD's are getting the same matches as DO.

Also I hope you do realize ACGME is revamping the match system. They are pushing out FMG's and making them fight for the scraps. "DO's are considered more desirable to the ACGME in this system than FMG's."
Funny some ACGME's won't look at DO's just as some won't look at FMGs, your point? Again match lists do tell all, if they are similar that means similar positions are attainable. It all depends how much you are willing to work for it.

Anyways looking over the match lists I'm seeing DO's landing significantly better programs than the Caribs.

Really, not from what I saw. Most of the DO matches were smaller or community type programs. Maybe that's what they wanted maybe not. The Caribs matched a lot of Uni programs, maybe that's what they wanted. Either way matches are attainable from either DO or MD. The new system isn't going to kick anyone out it's just getting rid of the scramble to a 2nd match.

How many students enter a Carib school? I think that is a better analysis. For example if you start off with 200 students, but only 100 graduate and then of that 100, 75 gets a residency isn't that bad?
Like I prefaced that post with, I have never seen anyone who didn't put in the work fail.
Another scenerio is the first time pass rates of the boards. What percentage of students actually take it and pass it on time?

Again if you do your work you will pass. Ross 1st time pass rate for average GPA which is 2.9 is 97%, 3.2 + is 99%, yes less take it but the one's that do pass way more than DO students with their 89% 1st time pass rate.

Don't have time to really break it down at, but caribbeean match lists are notoriously deceiving. It doesn't tell you how long it took these students to match, how many even made it to the match phase, the huge number of students that go into "undesirable" fields compared to the one who matched surg after doing a year of research, not matching another year, etc. DO is a far, far better choice as far as matching and specializing are concerned ... Really not much argument.

I agree a year to match might be a deal, however I disagree DO is far far better when Carib MD's are getting relatively the same positions as DOs and I would say even better than PCOM's match list being as most their students matched community programs.

.... Ross lists more residents on that list than they have first year students..... Lets add in that Ross is well known for a cutdown based on an estoteric GPA (2.75). So I'm really interested to know how they not only *didn't lose a single person* but gained an additional 50-100 between year 1 and PGY1. (yes, i'm aware that graduates a few years removed from dipoma could attest for some of it... but not *That* much of it)

I get a feeling that the numbers might be a *little* cooked.

le sigh.

Because this match was students who started 4 years ago when entering classes were 250/semester, they have upped enrollment hence why the current 1st semester class is larger. Ross matched about 350 in 2010, 1st year class is about 600 right now. Again if you do your work you will easily be one of the 350.

All a match list will tell you about a school is where their students wanted to go.
Also, FMGs are going to be squeezed out by the new improved match system in the next few years (when most of us posting here will be graduating and applying for the match).

If you want to practice in the U.S., don't leave the U.S. for medical school. End of story. The Caribs are just fine if you want to practice elsewhere.

Again you apparently spend too much time on your OMM than learning how the match is and will work. They are only removing the scramble and creating a second match. This will have no effect on 95% of MD or DO's that get a match in a given year as they wouldn't have scrambled anyway. Who keeps telling you guys there is some fabled crazy new system that you make sound like DO's get +5 points over caribs to make it that much harder for us to match?

With all the huge egos flying around in here, you’d think this was a forum for US allopathic students. It’s always funny to watch the D.O’s mock the Caribs as if they aren’t on the same level.

I went to that ValueMD link, and saw plenty of people posting silly things. But the funniest by far has to be the D.O. bragging about his high rise and the money he’s making, even going so far as to admit that he was an average student at best.

If we’re going to paint all Carib students with one brush, let’s be sure to do the same for D.O.’s as well.

Exactly, if you work hard you will have the same opportunities as any DO student, minus the DO match. I have met many great DO's, MDs and many poor DO's and MDs. Even know a crap MD who graduated from Harvard Med, supposedly the best in the US, but guess what it's all about the person. Lastly a fine example of someone who worked hard and is now teaching for Harvard, and a Trauma/CC surgeon for a world renown hospital Brigham Womens and Childrens Hospital http://physiciandirectory.brighaman...in&setsize=30&last_name=rezak&pict_id=0011676
I know you will say she is not the norm and I agree, but it is proof that graduating from a Good Big 4 Carib school from a statistical point of view offers the same opportunities as some or all DO schools.

 

[DoctorMedic]

A match list does very little to tell us anything. For example, person has a strong desire to be a pediatrician and has a 260 step 1. Does this mean that she settled for a bad residency? or personal preference? The end result is that going to a DO schools will be significantly more helpful than a carib school.
Also I hope you do realize ACGME is revamping the match system. They are pushing out FMG's and making them fight for the scraps. "DO's are considered more desirable to the ACGME in this system than FMG's."

Anyways looking over the match lists I'm seeing DO's landing significantly better programs than the Caribs.

Please please please show me where this is stated anywhere! http://www.nrmp.org/soap.pdf I'm dying to know! If you can't then I suggest you gracefully bow out of the conversation as you seem to have no clue what is going on yet keep acting like you do. I never once said Carib was better than DO, but match lists prove they are on equal footing right now. Thank you and good day.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Ooo, oo, I'll play!

Again if you do your work you will pass. Ross 1st time pass rate for average GPA which is 2.9 is 97%, 3.2 + is 99%, yes less take it but the one's that do pass way more than DO students with their 89% 1st time pass rate.

It is fairly common knowledge that Ross and other Caribbean schools will screen out students who they do not believe will pass, and in many instances not even "sponsor" students to take Step 1. When it comes to the USMLE most osteopathic programs don't regulate the USLME, and others make you take extra prep work for the COMLEX. Oh yeah, did I mention the USMLE is usually one of two boards if a D.O. takes it.

Lastly, usually ~90%+ of students that begin as an MS-1 make it far enough to take their boards, do you really think that is the same for Caribbean?

I agree a year to match might be a deal, however I disagree DO is far far better when Carib MD's are getting relatively the same positions as DOs and I would say even better than PCOM's match list being as most their students matched community programs.

Again your match list is decieving, there's probably a few of those students that have had to take 3-4 years off to do "research" to buff up their apps since they didn't match the first go around.

Because this match was students who started 4 years ago when entering classes were 250/semester, they have upped enrollment hence why the current 1st semester class is larger. Ross matched about 350 in 2010, 1st year class is about 600 right now. Again if you do your work you will easily be one of the 350.

Yeah, that match list includes students 4 years ago, but I doubt some of those didn't start 5/6/7 years ago.

Again you apparently spend too much time on your OMM than learning how the match is and will work. They are only removing the scramble and creating a second match. This will have no effect on 95% of MD or DO's that get a match in a given year as they wouldn't have scrambled anyway. Who keeps telling you guys there is some fabled crazy new system that you make sound like DO's get +5 points over caribs to make it that much harder for us to match?

People on SDN and other sources, minus present company of course, tell me this. Not to mention the sketchiness of the statistics I read on Caribbean school's own website, gives me a bit of intution to go with what all those others are saying.

Exactly, if you work hard you will have the same opportunities as any DO student, minus the DO match. I have met many great DO's, MDs and many poor DO's and MDs. Even know a crap MD who graduated from Harvard Med, supposedly the best in the US, but guess what it's all about the person. Lastly a fine example of someone who worked hard and is now teaching for Harvard, and a Trauma/CC surgeon for a world renown hospital Brigham Womens and Childrens Hospital http://physiciandirectory.brighaman...in&setsize=30&last_name=rezak&pict_id=0011676
I know you will say she is not the norm and I agree, but it is proof that graduating from a Good Big 4 Carib school from a statistical point of view offers the same opportunities as some or all DO schools.

I agree with this. Work your butt off and you can get where you want to be. You'll probably just need to work a bit harder and make connections that are harder to make from an island if one chooses Caribbean.

Let's put it this way, I would much rather be a below average D.O. student than a below average Caribbean student. And from what I hear, going into medical school it is hard to gauge where a student will end up on the spectrum.

 

[DocEspana]

Because this match was students who started 4 years ago when entering classes were 250/semester, they have upped enrollment hence why the current 1st semester class is larger. Ross matched about 350 in 2010, 1st year class is about 600 right now. Again if you do your work you will easily be one of the 350.

you misunderstood my point, but also backed it up at the same time. I was saying exactly what you said. That the enrolling class 4 years ago was 250-300. The enrolled class now is, officially, 800 (with up to 950 being reported once on unofficial counts). But the residents are coming from a group of about 300. How the hell 667 matched is beyond me. The link that was given to us lists 667 residents, not the 350 you suggested. Even if my estimate of when the "mass enrollment surplus" happened, and maybe its at the half way point of 550, thats still 100 more residents than we are estimating as your first year enrolled students.

the 350 might be the number who go on to get residencies right out of Ross. That would make sense since the figure i usually see is about 40% rate of that. 350/800 = 43.8%. The other 300 residents listed proudly on Ross's website are either fraudulent info (which okay, i dont believe to be the case at all) or old graduates who spent at least one year re-trying to get a residency since they didnt match, and simply got added onto the chart the year they did finally match regardless of how long ago they got their degree.

 

[DocEspana]

I do want to make one thing clear. I don't feel IMGs are inferior to DOs. I do think that some of the overseas schools' practices are predatory and unethical. This applies to both how they mislead applicants and how they have perpetuated an unsustainable medical education environment in a few cities through near-bribes in a system that previously ran nearly for free and placement of med school board members on state boards of education when the cash flow wasn't enough.

I truly believe that a fully motivated and hard working IMG can practice medicine as good as anyone else and shouldn't receive bias in residency selection. But you have to be kidding yourself to say that there aren't absolute ceilings to your potential as the system is biased against you and shows no sign of changing. The ceilings may not be strictly over Psych/IM/ER/ObGYN/FM, as other options are definitely open as is upward mobility through fellowships. But that ceiling is not much higher than that. And many residencies truly are clean off the table no matter how qualified you are.

Thats just the truth. Its not fair. But between people who carry a bias, and those in NY/FL/CA/NJ who are pissed at seeing their affiliations with American hospitals disintegrate and take it out by expressly barring IMGs from certain residency tracks (see: Bronx-Lebanon circa 2009 and 2010), that is just how it is. Currently some IMG is trying to challenge B-Leb's stance on this. I don't see this person winning though, as it sort of steps onto the whole national match's system and no one is going to overthrow that baby any time soon.

 

[GotMyHairDid]

Again you apparently spend too much time on your OMM than learning how the match is and will work.

You're going to make a fantastic Doctor! I mean, presumptuous AND judgmental! Sweety, here are the facts, on your own valuemd forums a admissions counselor said there is no caribbean medical school that can provide a better chance at residency than ANY US Medical school. Yet, a bunch of you caribbean students seem to ignore this fact. And for that matter seem to ignore the inconsistencies that another post already wrote about between graduates and residency placements plus the vague results.

Here's the brutal and honest truth. One of 2 things happened.

1) You couldn't get into an American Medical school MD OR DO so you had to go to the caribbean to backdoor your way into medicine. Then you turn around and say it's because you don't like DO or OMM but in reality you lack the cognitive or emotional faculties required to gain admittance.

2) You simply don't understand what the DO degree is the legal and professional equivalent of the MD. This could be due to your lack of research on the subject or just narrow-minded drive towards your precious MD. This means that you either lack the motivation to research the profession you claim to desire entrance into so much, or willful ignorance. This leads us back to the emotional/cognitive deficiencies I alluded to in point 1.

I think this adequately sums up about 99% of the Caribbean students that have either posted on this thread on the valuemd thread.

P.S. Really? They named their website "ValueMD", that's not what I would want out of a education. I rather get the best education possible at an extremely expensive cost than go "Value". Much like why I don't buy store-brand toothpaste.

 

[livedie]

Really, not from what I saw. Most of the DO matches were smaller or community type programs. Maybe that's what they wanted maybe not. The Caribs matched a lot of Uni programs, maybe that's what they wanted. Either way matches are attainable from either DO or MD. The new system isn't going to kick anyone out it's just getting rid of the scramble to a 2nd match.


Again if you do your work you will pass. Ross 1st time pass rate for average GPA which is 2.9 is 97%, 3.2 + is 99%, yes less take it but the one's that do pass way more than DO students with their 89% 1st time pass rate.


I agree a year to match might be a deal, however I disagree DO is far far better when Carib MD's are getting relatively the same positions as DOs and I would say even better than PCOM's match list being as most their students matched community programs.


Because this match was students who started 4 years ago when entering classes were 250/semester, they have upped enrollment hence why the current 1st semester class is larger. Ross matched about 350 in 2010, 1st year class is about 600 right now. Again if you do your work you will easily be one of the 350.


Again you apparently spend too much time on your OMM than learning how the match is and will work. They are only removing the scramble and creating a second match. This will have no effect on 95% of MD or DO's that get a match in a given year as they wouldn't have scrambled anyway. Who keeps telling you guys there is some fabled crazy new system that you make sound like DO's get +5 points over caribs to make it that much harder for us to match?


Exactly, if you work hard you will have the same opportunities as any DO student, minus the DO match. I have met many great DO's, MDs and many poor DO's and MDs. Even know a crap MD who graduated from Harvard Med, supposedly the best in the US, but guess what it's all about the person. Lastly a fine example of someone who worked hard and is now teaching for Harvard, and a Trauma/CC surgeon for a world renown hospital Brigham Womens and Childrens Hospital http://physiciandirectory.brighaman...in&setsize=30&last_name=rezak&pict_id=0011676
I know you will say she is not the norm and I agree, but it is proof that graduating from a Good Big 4 Carib school from a statistical point of view offers the same opportunities as some or all DO schools.

I appreciate your honesty, and I am not trying to put IMG's down. I just think it is sad that the Carib schools will take almost ANYONE. I personally know people that are in these schools that I would not trust to stitch a hamster, but because they have a cosignor and or good credit they get in. Some of these students fail out and still have to pay back loans it is horrible that the Carib schools prey on the desperation of people. I think they prey on the desperation of some people wanting to be a Dr. I do not care if you went to DO, Carib, or MD medical school as long as you are board certified I will let you treat me or my family.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree a year to match might be a deal, however I disagree DO is far far better when Carib MD's are getting relatively the same positions as DOs and I would say even better than PCOM's match list being as most their students matched community programs.

Actually ... it's not a big deal, it's a huge deal. Not only does it cost you a year of 200k salary, it also adds a year of interest on to your substantial debt from attending a Caribbean medical school and LIKELY decreases your chances of matching the next year (it's a general anecdote from PDs that the more time you spend away from MS 4 -> residency, the harder it is to match).

Furthermore, they aren't getting the same positions as DOs. Look at DocEspana's numbers - even the DO schools created with the mission of 'primary care' are putting out double the numbers of individuals into specialty spots without even taking into consideration the sheer number game or the difference in drop out rates before hand.

Additionally, I don't know how you can claim the majority are community programs when every ACGME residency that's available to DOs is available (technically) to FMGs, but DOs match at nearly 73% and all FMGs match at around 48%. Additionally, keep in mind that this doesn't even take exclusive AOA DO residencies into account:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

This really shouldn't even be up for discussion. PDs say DO > FMG in terms of who they take, residents from Caribbean medical schools say go DO, the numbers say DO applicants match better, etc.

Please please please show me where this is stated anywhere! http://www.nrmp.org/soap.pdf I'm dying to know! If you can't then I suggest you gracefully bow out of the conversation as you seem to have no clue what is going on yet keep acting like you do. I never once said Carib was better than DO, but match lists prove they are on equal footing right now. Thank you and good day.

Uhhh ... look at the sheer numbers:

Foreign medical grads (in total) come in at less than 50% matched, DOs (in total) come in at mid-low 70s % (not taking AOA residencies into account either).

(pg 12 of above link - "others" aka DO (with a few other VERY small factors that shouldn't affect the numbers - 73% ish; US IMGs - 47.3%, down from 2009)

Lastly, like others are saying ... I'm not trying to put down Caribbean medical students in general. Like you said, it comes down to the student in the end, but I really don't even think the match statistics are up for debate.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Really, not from what I saw. Most of the DO matches were smaller or community type programs. Maybe that's what they wanted maybe not. The Caribs matched a lot of Uni programs, maybe that's what they wanted. Either way matches are attainable from either DO or MD. The new system isn't going to kick anyone out it's just getting rid of the scramble to a 2nd match.

Dude, I am not saying this as a put down but as a concerned citizen. You obviously are not familiar with basic statistics. Every piece of analysis you've posted in this thread has been rampant with either self-report biases, unjustified extrapolation, an n of 1, compared unlike quantities, or had undocumented collection methods. You also ignore the evidence based arguments showing the percentage of Carib graduates who actually make it past 1st year, the multiple years worth of graduates reporting match data for the same year, the 40% match rate, etc.



I highly recommend taking a stats class before you start residency as the mathematical ignorance you display is astounding.

That is not to say your thesis that a hard working student attending a Caribbean school can match well, is wrong. That thesis is proven every year by many hardworking individuals.

 

[munchymanRX]

Again you apparently spend too much time on your OMM than learning how the match is and will work. They are only removing the scramble and creating a second match. This will have no effect on 95% of MD or DO's that get a match in a given year as they wouldn't have scrambled anyway. Who keeps telling you guys there is some fabled crazy new system that you make sound like DO's get +5 points over caribs to make it that much harder for us to match?

There's no need to get so defensive. Nowhere in my comment did I say that DO's get extra points or that IMG's were inferior. I'm simply stating facts. Statistically, it is much easier to match into a residency program in the US if you went to school (surprise surprise) in the US


Edit: successful troll is successful.

Nobody's putting you down or denigrating your hard work. Take your animosity someplace else.

 

[MossPoh]

As a US MD supremacist (note sarcasm), I'd recommend the DO school. There are far fewer things that can go wrong. I understand not liking the area, but it isn't a huge part of your life and may actually be good to get you out of your comfort zone for a bit. It is most likely best for your marriage to go where your wife can go too. I've found that many of the people who do best in my class are married with supportive spouses. They have someone to go home to and destress with. Sometimes it requires study time sacrifices, but that is life.

The increase in schools is going to make residency in your chosen field increasingly difficult, excluding areas like family medicine that struggle to fill spots. Give yourself every advantage you can. The financial hit sucks, but you'll manage and it will probably pay off in the end.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

With all the huge egos flying around in here, you’d think this was a forum for US allopathic students. It’s always funny to watch the D.O’s mock the Caribs as if they aren’t on the same level.

I went to that ValueMD link, and saw plenty of people posting silly things. But the funniest by far has to be the D.O. bragging about his high rise and the money he’s making, even going so far as to admit that he was an average student at best.

If we’re going to paint all Carib students with one brush, let’s be sure to do the same for D.O.’s as well.

I don't think anyone's saying a doctor who came from a DO school is better than a doctor who came from a Caribbean school. We're just saying it's going to be a lot harder to get the residency you want. I personally just think it's a lot of uncertainty for the amount of money you pay.

 

[DocEspana]

And here is the part where i do stir the pot just for fun....

Norcini, J. J., Boulet, J. R., et. al. (2010, August). Evaluating The Quality Of Care
Provided By Graduates Of International Medical Schools. Health Affairs. 29(8),
1461-1468. doi: 10.1377/hlthaff.2009.0222

Sparknotes abstract: There is no difference in outcomes in the ER between American-trained MDs, DOs, or foreign-born foreign-trained MDs in equivalent status patients. But there is a significantly higher rate of negative outcomes for American citizens trained overseas who return to the US to practice.

Is it trolling if i post something I know will stir the pot, but I cite my sources and accurately represent the data? Also, its not the only one. It's just the latest one to assert this. <cue some variant of the troll face>

 

[Westonski]

i highly recommend taking a stats class before you start residency as the mathematical ignorance you display is astounding.

rocked.

 

[DoctorMedic]

1) you guys are so easily riled up.
2) In all of my posts i specifically mention the students who do their work, I don't disagree Carib schools take a lot of students they know won't make it.
3) I know very well the difference between DO and MD.
4) I was accepted to PCOM Philly and NYCOM but decided at the time I really didn't want DO after my name and I didn't really care about OMM. Personal choice.
4) I also make sure to specifically state the big 4 Caribbean schools AUC, Ross, SABA, and SGU. If you take out all the other 30 some carib schools match and USMLE rates are way different.
5) Whoever said I need a statistics class, we started with 427, left with about 360 into 5th semester. That is 84% retention and pass rate. If you take the 750 (maybe a few more enrollment was about 250 then) and get 84% o that you will have 630, add in only 37 who didn't match and well you can do that math. Not unfeasible at all.
For the last time I'm not trying to put anyone down except the guy who falsely quoted saying new match will be harder for IMGs. What I proved by posting that was not FMG match rates but that the new process has nothing to do w/ trying to limit FMGs, DOs, or anyone for that matter. Again the match rates for the Big 4 are much better than all FMGs which includes India, Europe, and other places all over the world.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1) you guys are so easily riled up.
2) In all of my posts i specifically mention the students who do their work, I don't disagree Carib schools take a lot of students they know won't make it.
This is an example of the just world complex of thought. You could easily get shafted even if you're good.
3) I know very well the difference between DO and MD.
4) I was accepted to PCOM Philly and NYCOM but decided at the time I really didn't want DO after my name and I didn't really care about OMM. Personal choice.
I'm happy for the person who received an acceptance after you declined.
4) I also make sure to specifically state the big 4 Caribbean schools AUC, Ross, SABA, and SGU. If you take out all the other 30 some carib schools match and USMLE rates are way different.
5) Whoever said I need a statistics class, we started with 427, left with about 360 into 5th semester. That is 84% retention and pass rate. If you take the 750 (maybe a few more enrollment was about 250 then) and get 84% o that you will have 630, add in only 37 who didn't match and well you can do that math. Not unfeasible at all.
For the last time I'm not trying to put anyone down except the guy who falsely quoted saying new match will be harder for IMGs. What I proved by posting that was not FMG match rates but that the new process has nothing to do w/ trying to limit FMGs, DOs, or anyone for that matter. Again the match rates for the Big 4 are much better than all FMGs which includes India, Europe, and other places all over the world.

Sackler in Israel I believe has a better match rate than SGU. Also there are people who are working for or are associated with NMPR on here. They have told us many times that the match for IMG's will become more and more difficult. Especially since people didn't match in the scramble.

Look I don't want to say that you can't make it big from an Carib MD school. However I think it is a dying option and if you were to look at the trends you would easily be able to ( statistically) see that it's too much of a risk. Anyways that being said, in the end it's your choice. If I were given the chance to attend PCOM I would send the deposit the very next day. End result is that you will go through a significantly more painful process than would a DO who will live in the civilized world.
But again, this is my opinion. I would rather minimize the amount of hoops I need to get through and get out and practice as fast as possible. The Carib is a higher risk and lower chance of reward.

 

[NYEMMED]

Anyone know what happened to the NYS bill/petition to no longer allow carrib students from rotating in NY... didn't FL start a similar bill too? Wonder what will happen to carrib schools when they can no longer rotate...

 

[GotMyHairDid]

3) I know very well the difference between DO and MD.
4) I was accepted to PCOM Philly and NYCOM but decided at the time I really didn't want DO after my name and I didn't really care about OMM. Personal choice.

So this leads me to think you're unable to put together 2 and 2. You claim to be completely aware of DO/MD and claim to have been accepted to two DO programs yet still choose to go Caribbean. You're obviously lacking in simple problem solving capabilities.

Good luck in the Caribbean I look forward to seeing you during rounds... oh wait...

 

[christina30]

So this leads me to think you're unable to put together 2 and 2. You claim to be completely aware of DO/MD and claim to have been accepted to two DO programs yet still choose to go Caribbean. You're obviously lacking in simple problem solving capabilities.

Good luck in the Caribbean I look forward to seeing you during rounds... oh wait...

Two DO programs with some of the best/most impressive match lists & reputations, to boot. Smart move, buddy!!

 

[myPsychAlt]

for those of you that think DO is better than the big 4 caribs check the match lists, they say about all of it. Also yes many in the carib don't make it but that isn't any fault of the school's, it's of the students for not applying themselves. I have yet to see anyone who truly applied themselves fail out.

Ross-- http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm
AUC -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html
SGU -- http://aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

compare those to one of the biggest DO programs

http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2010_phl.html

not that much different and a larger % of carib placements were better known places than PCOM. Just saying to all those that think 100% hands down DO > Carib MD do some research. It's the person not the school when you are Carib MD OR DO now and days.

Well first of all your link to SGU doesn't work. Secondly, what year are you? because really the only way to interpret a match list is to actually know the quality of the programs involved. I can really only speak to Psychiatry, but the two carib lists posted are REALLY unimpressive. There were a few programs here and there which I would have even considered applying to (I interviewed at Rochester), but even that program is really non-competitive. Schools like Ross love to flaunt a program like Harvard South Shore on their match lists, but despite its name, it's basically just a glorified community program.

As far as academic programs, that's all well and good, but a program like Einstein in Philly is still probably more solid than Drexel or Temple (and possibly even Jefferson...simply due to the structure of the program).

 

[DocEspana]

Anyone know what happened to the NYS bill/petition to no longer allow carrib students from rotating in NY... didn't FL start a similar bill too? Wonder what will happen to carrib schools when they can no longer rotate...

Its in the process. That resolution and the corresponding student version both get voted on in march-april ish. The attending's resolution appears to be based on the fact that overseas programs, regardless of the loopholes they created by slipping money to the education department in the late 80s, should not be allowed to rotate until they meet the same accreditation standards that US schools meet.

The med student resolution focuses on possibly ending the ability of schools to pay for spots. Failing that the resolution requires that the amount of purchased spots be low enough to not displace any american programs. It will also push for, as the attendings' resolution does, closing the loophole in State Department of Health in regulation 10 NYCRR, Section 405.4(f)(1)(ii)

 

[Siggy]

Just in case someone missed it, here's the quote from "Tripton," an "AUC School Official."

I don't see how anyone can claim that even a well-established offshore medical school offers better opportunities than any DO program in the US. Am I missing something here? So Touro doesn't have a reputation yet. So what? Neither does the Univ of Central Florida. Can anyone honestly claim that UCF graduates will match lower than AUC graduates?

 

[mulberry]

Just in case someone missed it, here's the quote from "Tripton," an "AUC School Official."

He, Tipton, is actually a school official from AUA, American University of Antigua. 🙂

He is completely right, too. I am a frequent poster on VMD and still tell people that US DO > IMG MD, especially if you plan on staying in the states to practice. Some people who want to practice in Canada, Europe, etc., the IMG MD route is obviously the better of the two since DO can only be practiced in the states if I'm not mistaken.

 

[denco88]

He, Tipton, is actually a school official from AUA, American University of Antigua. 🙂

He is completely right, too. I am a frequent poster on VMD and still tell people that US DO > IMG MD, especially if you plan on staying in the states to practice. Some people who want to practice in Canada, Europe, etc., the IMG MD route is obviously the better of the two since DO can only be practiced in the states if I'm not mistaken.

You actually are mistaken...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

 

[mulberry]

You actually are mistaken...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

This makes me even more excited 😀

 

[bodave2]

Thanks for the advice. I sent in my $2,000 and I start at TouroCOM Aug1st
-David Bohannon🙂

 

[premedmind]

Thanks for the advice. I sent in my $2,000 and I start at TouroCOM Aug1st
-David Bohannon🙂

Solid choice. I would choose Touro-COM over AUC any day. It's in a rough area of NYC, but I mean, cmon...it's NYC! Their facilities are also very nice/new. Good luck. You won't have to adjust to island life, which is probably more foreign to you than a big city.

A lot of this not wanting to have a DO after your name nonsense simply arises from ignorance, plain and simple. If these people truly researched the difference they would find that their is no difference. I'd be frightened to be under the care of a doctor who was more concerned about his MD initials than about the education he receives, which in my humble opinion DO schools are superior to foreign schools.

I am a case in point. I initially said no way to DO, as I thought it was the inferior option to MD. But after seriously researching what the profession was all about, I came to understand it better and was no longer bothered with the idea of being a DO.

 

[DocEspana]

Thanks for the advice. I sent in my $2,000 and I start at TouroCOM Aug1st
-David Bohannon🙂

awesome! 😀 Welcome to NYC

 

[livedie]

Solid choice. I would choose Touro-COM over AUC any day. It's in a rough area of NYC, but I mean, cmon...it's NYC! Their facilities are also very nice/new. Good luck. You won't have to adjust to island life, which is probably more foreign to you than a big city.

A lot of this not wanting to have a DO after your name nonsense simply arises from ignorance, plain and simple. If these people truly researched the difference they would find that their is no difference. I'd be frightened to be under the care of a doctor who was more concerned about his MD initials than about the education he receives, which in my humble opinion DO schools are superior to foreign schools.

I am a case in point. I initially said no way to DO, as I thought it was the inferior option to MD. But after seriously researching what the profession was all about, I came to understand it better and was no longer bothered with the idea of being a DO.

It's in Harlem that is not considered a rough area of NYC. Good luck I think you will be happy in NYC we are number one!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mulberry]

Solid choice. I would choose Touro-COM over AUC any day. It's in a rough area of NYC, but I mean, cmon...it's NYC! Their facilities are also very nice/new. Good luck. You won't have to adjust to island life, which is probably more foreign to you than a big city.

A lot of this not wanting to have a DO after your name nonsense simply arises from ignorance, plain and simple. If these people truly researched the difference they would find that their is no difference. I'd be frightened to be under the care of a doctor who was more concerned about his MD initials than about the education he receives, which in my humble opinion DO schools are superior to foreign schools.

I am a case in point. I initially said no way to DO, as I thought it was the inferior option to MD. But after seriously researching what the profession was all about, I came to understand it better and was no longer bothered with the idea of being a DO.

Coming from someone who has never step foot on St. Maarten? The island AUC is located on is one of the more sophisticated islands in the Caribbean, nothing close to 3rd world like Dominicana of Ross. People goto places even worse and are able to adjust because in the end, the only thing they care about is getting off the island and getting an education to pass the steps.

 

[DocEspana]

Coming from someone who has never step foot on St. Maarten? The island AUC is located on is one of the more sophisticated islands in the Caribbean, nothing close to 3rd world like Dominicana of Ross. People goto places even worse and are able to adjust because in the end, the only thing they care about is getting off the island and getting an education to pass the steps.

There is a student from our class from St. Maarten all his life. He has nothing but bad things to say about AUC and the area its in. And he's from the Dutch side, not the French side. And he really loves St. Maarten, he just thinks the change over (and i've been to the exact area AUC is in, I can attest that his opinion would be accurate for me) is too much for people and tells us we should be really thankful not to be there.

Plus, you misrepresent St. Maarten. While it isn't Dominica, its equally far from Aruba or any other 'affluent island'. Its a pretty poor country that has a truly beautiful cruise ship tourist area (among the best I've ever seen in the world).

 

[WingedOx]

yeah, I've heard mixed reviews of St. Maarten, but those reviews are miles ahead of what I've heard about Dominica.

AUA, on the other hand... I had a friend who went there. They were living in luxury in an apartment that looked like a five star resort that was still a fraction of what I pay for rent right now in PA. Of course they did get kind of stir-crazy when they weren't hanging out at Sandals (plus, there was the whole 3rd rate education).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Coming from someone who has never step foot on St. Maarten? The island AUC is located on is one of the more sophisticated islands in the Caribbean, nothing close to 3rd world like Dominicana of Ross. People goto places even worse and are able to adjust because in the end, the only thing they care about is getting off the island and getting an education to pass the steps.

I've been to St. Maarten, It's a ****hole once you leave the tourist zone. That being said, they have a very nice port shop with a bunch of extremely over priced imports. But yes.. it's not that much better than Dominicana..

 

[NurWollen]

I've been to St. Maarten, It's a ****hole once you leave the tourist zone. That being said, they have a very nice port shop with a bunch of extremely over priced imports. But yes.. it's not that much better than Dominicana..

Very interesting... the varying economics of each island probably don't factor in to people's decisions when choosing between Caribbean schools.

Having lived in a less-than affluent country with a per-capita GDP similar to that of St. Maarten, I would be interested to comparing the two. Poverty is relative, and here in the US we have the unfortunate tendency to think of anywhere south and/or tropical as "third world."

 

[WingedOx]

Very interesting... the varying economics of each island probably don't factor in to people's decisions when choosing between Caribbean schools.

Having lived in a less-than affluent country with a per-capita GDP similar to that of St. Maarten, I would be interested to comparing the two. Poverty is relative, and here in the US we have the unfortunate tendency to think of anywhere south and/or tropical as "third world."

Poverty may be relative. Corruption is not... which is a major problem in the islands. There's a reason why guys like Jack Warner thrive today...and a reason why residents on the island don't have the services that they should.

/only soccer fans will get the reference.
//getting really far from the original intent of this thread

 

[smq123]

damn... to far away from center city for me. All my friends in Rochester are using Wegmans as bait for me to come to do residency at UR.

They just opened one in Malvern. There's another one in Cherry Hill, which is probably the closest to Philadelphia.

[And now, back to the original topic of the thread....]

 

[munchymanRX]

I don't get why there's so much anger in here.

There's nothing wrong with DOs or being a FMG. Like most debates on SDN, it depends on what you want out of your career.

There's no argument that it will be easier for you to match into US allo programs as a DO from the US than as a foreign degree holder (ANY degree, including MBBS and MD). This has more to do with where the funding for residency programs comes from than where you went to school. Taxpayer dollars fund residency slots, and those slots havent been expanded or received a bump in their budget since 1997.

Therefore, program directors look first to graduates from the US, then elsewhere.

 

[Kalu123]

All a match list will tell you about a school is where their students wanted to go.
Also, FMGs are going to be squeezed out by the new improved match system in the next few years (when most of us posting here will be graduating and applying for the match).

If you want to practice in the U.S., don't leave the U.S. for medical school. End of story. The Caribs are just fine if you want to practice elsewhere.

This is unrelated to the DO vs. US IMG-MD topic. I was just wondering what you are talking about. How is the match changing?

 

[munchymanRX]

This is unrelated to the DO vs. US IMG-MD topic. I was just wondering what you are talking about. How is the match changing?

"new and improved"--should have been in quotes to indicate it wasn't to be taken literally.

Since the number of residency slots has effectively been stagnant for well over a decade now, it behooves students who want to practice in this country to stay in this country for school. More people applying to medical school for the roughly the same number of slots means that foreign students are going to be cut out of the fold more in the years to come but not altogether

Let me make that perfectly clear. You will still be able to match into a US residency as an IMG, but its going to get harder and harder in the coming years as more people apply for the same spots. Preference is given to US grads.

 

[Kalu123]

"new and improved"--should have been in quotes to indicate it wasn't to be taken literally.

Since the number of residency slots has effectively been stagnant for well over a decade now, it behooves students who want to practice in this country to stay in this country for school. More people applying to medical school for the roughly the same number of slots means that foreign students are going to be cut out of the fold more in the years to come but not altogether

Let me make that perfectly clear. You will still be able to match into a US residency as an IMG, but its going to get harder and harder in the coming years as more people apply for the same spots. Preference is given to US grads.

Haha I thought there might be some new method for the match for us future DO grads. Got a little excited there. But I totally agree with you.

BTW I have a very good friend at AUC. She's told me that if she could do it over again, she would have applied DO. She's failed a few classes and has come close to being kicked out. Last time I skyped with her, she was talking about how lonely it has become since many of her friends have failed out. It's really sad. There are some success stories from Caribbean grads, but it's definitely more of a gamble.

Also, I've seen a few people mention that AUC is on a nicer island so life there isn't as extreme as other Caribbean schools. My friend had to move in the middle of the semester because her apartment flooded. And at her new place, the internet is spotty at best. Also, she got sick a while ago and her experience at the local clinic/hospital was quite unnerving. If island life at AUC is better, I can't imagine what it's like at the other schools.

It'll be interesting to see how she does in the match when the time comes. I'm hoping she does well. I don't think I'd go there though.

 

[mulberry]

Haha I thought there might be some new method for the match for us future DO grads. Got a little excited there. But I totally agree with you.

BTW I have a very good friend at AUC. She's told me that if she could do it over again, she would have applied DO. She's failed a few classes and has come close to being kicked out. Last time I skyped with her, she was talking about how lonely it has become since many of her friends have failed out. It's really sad. There are some success stories from Caribbean grads, but it's definitely more of a gamble.

Also, I've seen a few people mention that AUC is on a nicer island so life there isn't as extreme as other Caribbean schools. My friend had to move in the middle of the semester because her apartment flooded. And at her new place, the internet is spotty at best. Also, she got sick a while ago and her experience at the local clinic/hospital was quite unnerving. If island life at AUC is better, I can't imagine what it's like at the other schools.

It'll be interesting to see how she does in the match when the time comes. I'm hoping she does well. I don't think I'd go there though.

You have to realize that friend of yours is one of the many people who currently attend AUC/have attended AUC. I talk to people who attend AUC on a regular basis and they don't have many complaints. in fact, they talk very highly of their school, the island, their professors, etc. i'm not a caribbean MD > DO advocate, but I'm just speaking for the unrepresented AUC students.