NY/NJ path programs

[kt818]

I'm slowly starting the process of getting my application together. I am hoping to end up in the area around NYC or possibly around DC. However there are so many programs in manhattan alone, and I'm not sure how to go about narrowing my selection. I tried looking at scutwork.com, but there aren't that many reviews of path programs. Is there another site that has information/personal experiences about various programs.
What are your opinions of some of the NYC/northern jersey programs? Also, any thoughts about the program at the university of maryland? Thanks for your help!

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[yaah]

I think people who end up at NYC and NJ path programs seem to disappear through some sort of vortex, because they never seem to be around here. That would fit with New Yorkers believing that they are the center of the known universe, and EVERYTHING revolves around New York. It's a strange paradox, because in normal human events a New Yorker pops up every 3.64 seconds to express fond feelings (Normally by saying something like, "**** this place. It ain't nothin like THE CITY. And **** you! Only New Yorkers understand the truth about life!")

To paraphrase the Simpsons:

Scientician: I'm tellin' you, the earth revolves around the sun.
New Yorkers: Burn him!

Ah, I kid because I care. I like New Yorkers, sometimes. They have passion.

Honestly, I don't know much about any of those programs because I didn't visit any. A lot of people have good things to say about Cornell and Columbia, although both have had a bit of turnover (among faculty) over the past few years. Cornell has a good association with MSKCC. Einstein and Mt Sinai I have also heard decent things about.

During my PSF one of the fellows had trained at one of the UMDNJ sites and enjoyed her training. That's all I know.

Everybody always asks about Maryland too.

 

[desmangt]

If you are interested in the NYC area, I would suggest looking at Long Island programs before looking at NJ programs. The Long Island Jewish Hospital program is very good. I have heard questionable things about the connection between MSKCC and Cornell, so I wouldn't use that as a marker for how great their program is. I would just apply to all of the NYC programs and then the Long Island programs and visit them on interviews. NYC is a very good place for pathology because of the city's diverse population. The diversity of pathology that comes through the departments of these hospitals is truly amazing. I would look at Freida and see the number of fellowships that these different programs offer and use that as a crude way to compare the quality of these programs. I'm saying this if one is thinking of applying to only one or two of the NYC programs. It is really hard to just pick the "best" program in NYC because the city has some of the most famous hospitals in the country, NYU, Mt. Sinai, Cornell, Columbia. NJ programs are not as big or well known. I personally cannot comment on any of them as I have never heard anything about them, good or bad.

 

[daisygirl]

It's a strange paradox, because in normal human events a New Yorker pops up every 3.64 seconds to express fond feelings (Normally by saying something like, "**** this place. It ain't nothin like THE CITY. And **** you! Only New Yorkers understand the truth about life!")

There really isn't anything like NYC. I've lived in Florida for one year and I have said exactly what you posted at least a million times over when I lived there. NYC rules

They have passion

Yeah



P.S. it's not "nothin"- it's nuttin'

 

[Sage]

Any more thoughts on the NY (Manhattan-ish) programs? Is there any program that stands out as particularly clinical vs. particularly research oriented?

 

[governaitor]

Having just been through the process and having looked at all Manhattan progrmas and rotated at Columbia, it is my opinion that there are only two strong programs (although you can learn pathology well anywhere). But relative to the best programs on east coast, midwest, bay area, LA, Columbia and Cornell do not stack up.

Hopkins, BWH, UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, Univ of Wash all seemed far more dynamic.

Still if you gotta be in NYC, then Cornell and Columbia will be great. And an average applicant would have no problem matching in one of the four Manhattan programs (that is nearly 20 spots and path just is not that competitive).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Any more thoughts on the NY (Manhattan-ish) programs? Is there any program that stands out as particularly clinical vs. particularly research oriented?

From what I've heard, here are some highly regarded research oriented programs: Hopkins, Duke, Brigham, Penn, Chicago, Wash U, Stanford, UCSF

 

[drjones]

Having just been through the process and having looked at all Manhattan progrmas and rotated at Columbia, it is my opinion that there are only two strong programs (although you can learn pathology well anywhere). But relative to the best programs on east coast, midwest, bay area, LA, Columbia and Cornell do not stack up.

Hopkins, BWH, UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, Univ of Wash all seemed far more dynamic.

Still if you gotta be in NYC, then Cornell and Columbia will be great. And an average applicant would have no problem matching in one of the four Manhattan programs (that is nearly 20 spots and path just is not that competitive).

Love NYC, but would have to agree. Attendings in NYC see some really amazing stuff, because they and their institutions are so well known, and they get referred tons of cases. But resident-wise, I'd have to agree that places like Hopkins, UCSF, UWash, Duke are better.
My observations on the manhattan progs:
Sloan-Kettering: Nice new offices, killer reputation, esp. internationally, but you'd have to be a fellow..
Mt. Sinai: Prob. heavies caseload in the country. Not too much scutwork, but while you get to see a lot of stuff it can prob. stress you out.
NYU: Pretty much ok. Diverse caseload, but not top of it's class.
Einstein: Actually don't know their path. dept., but research facilities really sux.
Presbytarian: Cornell campus is pretty cool, esp. good in haematopath. Columbia seems second tier to me.
Don't know the rest.
So if I was you, I'd do my residency somewhere else, and go to NYC to have a good time after the boards.

 

[drjones]

Certainly agree that resident pay is a huge obstracle in NYC. A police officer or firefighter makes 50% more than a resident, and most of them still have to live in Queens! Luckily, many hospitals have a decent amount of resident housing available close to the hospital. If that's not an option, you'd be severely out of luck and can look forwards to hours of transportation daily. (unless you go for Einstein...)

Only consolation would be that London and Tokyo is WAAAYYY more expensive than NYC...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You get paid similar amounts in the midwest where everything is 20-30% cheaper. [\QUOTE]

If anyone is interested in Michigan's program, be aware that Ann Arbor is one of the more expensive places to live in the midwest. The cost of living is especially higher if you live in Ann Arbor near the hospital. Of course, the cost goes down if you're willing to commute from near Ypsitucky.

 

[desmangt]

I am curious if any of the posts in here are from NYC residents? I did 4 pathology rotations last year and interviewed at 10 institutions, and I think there are many top programs in NYC. I don't even live in university housing, and pay $1,200 a month in rent, but I still have $$ go to out every weekend. There is no way Columbia, Cornell, or Mt. Sinai are second tier programs. I interviewed at Yale, all three Harvard hospitals, Chicago programs, and a few other programs in Ohio, and I feel that these programs can't compare to the NYC programs. Well, MGH and Brigham are pretty impresive, but Yale has way too small a volume, as do the Chicago programs. Mt. Sinai might have one of the most famous pathology departments in the world. More diseases have been discovered there than any other institution in the world. Columbia and Cornell have many attendings that have written books. NYC is a great place to work hard and play hard. Those who knock it, are too scared to take it on!

 

[yaah]

NYC is a great place to work hard and play hard. Those who knock it, are too scared to take it on!

I love New Yorkers.

I'm not scared. I'm smart.

Seriously though I do think it would be fun to live in NYC but I just don't enjoy the big crowds as much. I am much more happy out here, 5 miles outside Ann Arbor. Not having visited any NYC programs I can't comment fully, but I have heard Cornell has had lots of faculty turnover which some say has had a bit of a negative impact, and Columbia has seen better days. Of course, understand that I grew up in Massachusetts and people there often emphasize the bad things about NY. If your goal is to stay in NYC though, by all means train there. I also wonder what your $1200 apartment is and where it is. Sounds like a great deal. Of course, I pay less per month on my mortgage including escrow taxes and have 1600 square feet, 2 bedrooms, 2 bath, my own garage.

I had heard better things about the Einstein program, but then again I haven't heard much about it either. There are a lot of great faculty at the NYC programs though. There are lots of great faculty at lots of places!

BTW I thought U Chicago was a great program. You're right that the volume is not as high as others, but a lot of the volume comes from consult cases and difficult cases. There is plenty to learn there, more than enough volume.

 

[desmangt]

I live in a two bedroom in the upper east side (80's) and my apartment is probably 1,000 square feet. I don't need a car or pay insurance, so I save lots of money that way. I am also paying back my student loans at the same time. I do agree that financially it is much smarter to buy a place instead of renting, and it can be very difficult to find the cash to buy a place in NYC. But, if you can find the initial cash, once you finish your program, you probably can sell your place and make enough profit to pay a HUGE chunk of your loans off. Real estate is always a great investment in NYC, if you can afford it. I agree that NYC is expensive, and would probably not be as great of a place for a resident with a family. Also, places like Boston, Chicago, and SF are not much better when it comes to being expensive. However, I'm not really interested in debating about whether or not people like a certain city. Everyone is different and have their own likes and dislikes. I just wanted to comment on the fact that most of the NYC programs are very strong and solid programs. A LARGE number of the fellowships positions at MSKCC are filled with residents from Columbia, Mt. Sinai, and Cornell. And the NYC Medical Examiner's Office also gives preferencial treatment to NYC residents. These can be pretty important programs to get into for career advancement in pathology. So getting into an NYC program can be a smart career strategy. There are many GREAT programs elsewhere, but I just thought it was bad advice when I read the negative posting of the actual NYC programs. I don't want people to read this forum and be discouraged about applying to programs in NYC. I just feel that there has been a decent amount of sarcasm and negative energy in here recently directed toward New Yorkers and the people who want to build careers there. By the way, I'm not a New Yorker and I don't think I'm instantly cool or better because I moved here. I spent the last 26 years in the midwest and it's a great place.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Do you think a two bedroom apartment on the east side for 1,200 dollars is the norm or the exception?

Does your program offer subsidized housing?

Finances were a major reason why I decided not to rank NYC programs.

NYC is a great place to work hard and play hard. Those who knock it, are too scared to take it on!

What does "taking the city on" entail?

Where can you find the initial chunk of cash to buy a place in Manhattan?

Again, noone doubts the greatness of NYC programs. You seem to have a great thing going and have figured out how to stretch a buck pretty far.



By the way, getting a MSKCC fellowship is not that difficult from anywhere in the US. Especially if its Surg path.

 

[desmangt]

I was just frustrated with various comments made about New Yorkers in general. I agree with your posts. My comment about "too scared to take it on" refers to some people in the midwest and other areas in the US being intimidated by New York. Before I moved here from the midwest, I constantly heard comments like, "Aren't you scared to walk down the street?", or how people are rude, or how everyone in New York somehow was on drugs and had AIDS. I was just curious to know how many people, so passionately discussing New York, actually have lived here or personally knew anything about the programs (not here se). Anyway, the main point of this forum is to give advice to people interested in pathology. I just get frustrated when pre-formed opinions without personal experience get passed off as being legitimate. By the way, I live in a two bedroom and pay $1,200, but my roommate also pays $1,200. That is expensive! But there is subsidized housing that can be as low as $800/month. It's probably not that nice, but I haven't seen one yet. Real estate is an investment in itself. If you have parents who could help with a down deposit, a major profit is pretty much guaranteed. I have a buddy who bought a studio on 88th and 3rd Ave (UES) for $150,000 in 1999, and just sold it for over $300,000. That would be a nice chunk of change to put towards loans. However, most people, including myself, can't pull that off. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just wanted to protect potentially ambitious applicants from being deterred from NYC programs based on possibly unfounded bias.

 

[yaah]

I rip on my hometown all the time too. Doesn't mean I don't love it.

I'm scared to walk down the street on the lower east side. I have no @#$!ing clue where I am! Midtown and such is nice because you have numbered streets. Lower east side has essex, riverside, whatever. Not a clue.

I would probably enjoy living in NYC if I didn't have to be in residency - too many distractions. Plus, all those Yankee fans.

Whoah! 150 Gs for a studio.