NYC IM Programs

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I wanted to start a thread about the top NYC IM programs. Can people write their thoughts about Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Mt. Sinai and Montefiore.

Is Columbia really that rigid? Does the private service at Cornell make the residents feel like the attending's secretaries? Is NYU really that much scut work? And how are Mt. Sinai and Montefiore?

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I wanted to start a thread about the top NYC IM programs. Can people write their thoughts about Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Mt. Sinai and Montefiore.

Is Columbia really that rigid? Does the private service at Cornell make the residents feel like the attending's secretaries? Is NYU really that much scut work? And how are Mt. Sinai and Montefiore?

Columbia and NYU are the best, imo.

Rest not so sure about..
 
NYU is not scut work at all. In my PGY 2 and PGY 3 I drew blood 2 times. I am actually enjoying my work at NYU.
 
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I'm going to Montefiore in January with the understanding it might be superior to Jacobi, though Jacobi boasts a brand new hospital. I've gathered there's a lot of scut at these hospitals. Anyone have any insight to this or about the programs in general?
 
Here are my two cents:

From what I hear, Columbia is the most academic program in the city. It has a two attending system and is much more formal than the other programs. Unfortunately, it also has the worst location for the NYC schools and most residents commute to work because they don't want to live near the hospital.

Cornell is another great program. Probably not as competitive as columbia. It has a really nice hospital with great teaching. Hospital is private and there are a fair amount of private patients which is a down side. It also subsidizes housing for its residents which is pretty nice.

Mount Sinai is another good NYC program. It has a focus on training people to go into academic medicine and most residents go on to fellowships. These residents rotate through three hospitals in three different boroughs and see a broad diversity of different patients.

NYU is a very "hands-on" program with great clinical training and lots of resident autonomy. Also rotates through three different hospitals and see a very diverse patient population. Has a reputation of having lots of scut work, however, in recent years this problem has improved dramatically to the point where this reputation is probably not fair.
 
Also if you want to know about Cornell and NYU, read www.scutwork.com. I am so glad I did before my final rank list was submitted. I would be very unhappy right now if I ranked my programs based solely on reputation.
 
Speaking from inside NYH/Cornell, I can tell you that several of the reviews on scutwork.com on this program are full of it.

MSIVs who spent an interview day at a program should not be allowed to write a review on it.

As a PGY1 at Cornell I can tell you that we work extremely hard, there is about a 50/50 split between private and ward, and that even the privates enjoy sitting down and discussing management decisions with you. I would be happy to answer any more specific questions you may have about the program.

I am glad I did NOT let scutwork influence my decision making process. The most important thing any applicant can do is contact people that may be in a program from their medical school and ask their opinion on a place.
 
Have 3 friends (med school classmates) at Cornell. They seem to be unhappy with their clinical experience, lack of service patients and overnight call schedule.
 
I never said the program was without flaws. I do think the administration is trying to make some changes (albeit difficult at NYH).

What rubs me the wrong way is blasting it from another program. Id be more than happy to discuss the negatives. Heresay doesnt help anyone.
 
Which of the programs have overnight calls when you're on the wards?
 
I never said the program was without flaws. I do think the administration is trying to make some changes (albeit difficult at NYH).

What rubs me the wrong way is blasting it from another program. Id be more than happy to discuss the negatives. Heresay doesnt help anyone.

What do you perceive are strengths and weakness of the program? As applicants we rely on whatever sources are available because it's so hard to find the truth... I'll admit I had a similar impression that Cornell was a largely private hospital with a rigid hierarchy. But I'd rather hear what an intern who is there thinks than someone who's as ignorant as me.
 
I never said the program was without flaws. I do think the administration is trying to make some changes (albeit difficult at NYH).

What rubs me the wrong way is blasting it from another program. Id be more than happy to discuss the negatives. Heresay doesnt help anyone.


Sure, I might be from another program but remember, residents and interns from our two programs work together at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. I heard complaints directly from Cornell interns and residents while working with them. Also it is known fact at Sloan Kettering that people from my institution are better clinically trained as compared to Cornell residents, so guess who runs most of codes at Sloan Kettering?
 
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NYU is not scut work at all. In my PGY 2 and PGY 3 I drew blood 2 times.

I'm pretty sure that "no scut work at all" would be drawing blood zero times. As I hear more about medicine in other parts of the country I'm realizing that I'm pretty lucky to be where I am in some ways.
 
I would rather draw blood 10 times a day and live in Manhattan than live in minnesota for 1 month.:laugh:

I do not see anything wrong in knowing how to draw blood or place an IV.
 
I do not see anything wrong in knowing how to draw blood or place an IV.
I'm not arguing that knowing how to do those basic things is bad - in fact, it's probably a good thing. But it seems that you're implying that having to do your own blood draws (not talking about choosing when and were to do a few just to have that skill) counts as scut work, and that your program has zero scut despite having to do blood draws twice. I'm only an MS4, but from my limited experience around these parts (MS4 in Minnesota, having rotated through - 6 hospitals in the Twin Cities including a VA, one in Duluth, and Mayo - Rochester) two blood draws over 3 years seems to be on the upper end of scut. Apparently on the East Coast that's so far on the low end that you consider it to be zero.

I find the regional differences in the practice of medicine to be interesting, and get a little annoyed when people imply that medicine on the coasts is so much better (not that you or anybody in this thread were) yet I hear of some things that make me very glad to be where I am, and scut work is a biggy.

And speaking of regional differences - everybody here seems to think that all VAs are alike, and I did as a third year med student. When I toured my home program's VA (Minneapolis) some of the applicants from elsewhere commented on how different ours was to theirs. One in particular that was mentioned was one of the Chicago VAs. I did my medicine sub-i at the Minneapolis VA, including weekend coverage alone with a moonlighter for my whole team. Never once did I have to transport a patient, draw blood, or start an iv. Now, if a patient was a hard stick and missed the AM blood draw you would have to bug the iv team and wait for the blood draw, getting CT scans at 11 pm at night required a few phone calls, and the nursing staff sometimes left something to be desired. But overall I get the impression that our VA is much nicer than many other VAs. I'm learning from SDN and the interview trail that my experience is not a typical VA experience. Any comments on how this compares to other VAs would be appreciated.
 
But overall I get the impression that our VA is much nicer than many other VAs. I'm learning from SDN and the interview trail that my experience is not a typical VA experience. Any comments on how this compares to other VAs would be appreciated.

I trained in NY and worked at the Brooklyn VA for 3 rotations including an ICU elective. I'm now in a West Coast program w/ a VA that has Magnet status (a nursing thing but it kind of reflects on the whole place).

To give you some idea of how different VAs are run, when i was doing my unit rotation in Brooklyn, we had a code while the team was rounding outside the room. Our rounding team included the whole medicine crew, a SW the charge nurse and the patient's nurse. Upon noticing that he was flat-lining, the team (who also happens to be the code team) sprang into action. Nursing on the other hand refused to participate until a code had been called to the operator and overhead paged. Nevermind the fact that nobody other than the ICU team already running the code would be responding...rules is rules. And then they refused to listen to the attending who was running the code b/c according to the rules, it has to be house staff who run the codes. And don't get me started about the day to day mundane stuff like blood draws, transport, having to beg for CT scans (all CT scans had to be personally approved by one of the part-time radiologists who didn't have pagers and could rarely be reached) or having to wake the night/weekend lab tech up to run a CBC at 11pm on a crashing patient.

Contrast this w/ my West Coast VA where I've only drawn blood once (b/c I offered to help out a busy tech when I had one patient on my service), where an MRI got done 3 hours after it was ordered (no begging required) and where orders are treated like orders not suggestions (but questioned when appropriate).

In short, all VAs are not created equally and there are some really great ones out there and some good ones and some OK ones. On the whole they are much better than they were 10 years ago and you will now find vets with other options (i.e. private insurance or Medicare) turning to the VA because they prefer the care they receive there than at other places.

The Minneapolis VA was one thing that kept UM high on my ROL last year. It's a really great program, as is the one in Madison and the one where I am now. I'm sure there are others such as the Palo Alto VA (Stanford) and the Puget Sound VA (UW) and others I'm not aware of.
 
Sure, I might be from another program but remember, residents and interns from our two programs work together at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. I heard complaints directly from Cornell interns and residents while working with them. Also it is known fact at Sloan Kettering that people from my institution are better clinically trained as compared to Cornell residents, so guess who runs most of codes at Sloan Kettering?


I've already done my PGY1 stuff at MSK for the year. I thought NYU residents were comparable to those I've seen and worked with at Cornell. And I even expressed some of the issues I've had with my program thus far. I'll reiterate, NYH/WC is not perfect. But I do think it's damn good, and I am happy overall.

With regards to the comment on codes... stop trolling.
 
Hi phily styl...remember me, i think we promised at one pt to post our experiences in columbia vs cornell to help students make decisions

well heres my take on columbia:

After coming here, I dont think I could be happier at any other place. The program is far from rigid, and although there are some things that are botherwsome about the hospital (specifically rapidity of certain services such as transport, phlebotomy, services ct scanners etc), the program is absolutely simply one of hte best in the city in letting you traint o be a great doctor. the solution of columbia is simple...complete autonomy as an intern with just enough support around the corner to get help. I truly feel at columbia that I am the doctor for every patient, and that nearly every major clinical decisiion is either made by me, or at least made by me after discussion with attendings and senior residents. At nights, we take call more or less alone, and cross cover a total of 3 other lists which equates to a maximum of 48 pts on cross cover. Its amazing since you are first call for every one of those patients and its ur job to determine if the pt just needs an ekg and some tylenol, or if you need to get the pt to the ccu and cath lab...and all the while there is a 2nd year night float and a third year med consult/icu triage available at all times to run things by. The senior residents are brilliant, and offer great knowledge both clinically and academically (research, both doing and knowledge of literature). Columbia is a learn by doing place, where every intern is certified in every central line by the end of week 1 in the MICU, and the interns run the show. It's front loaded, yes, but by 6 months into first year, you really know how to handle a service, and I am constantly amazed at how much I learned. The attendings vary as in every place, but whats amazing here is the two attending system, which keeps checks and balances, and more importantly offers different styles of teaching. It brilliance lies in this system, and as an example, in cardiology, you may get a mix of one eps physician and an interventionalist, or on heme onc get one solids person and one liquids. the pathology is unheard of, with post heart transplant patients being an almost normal every day patient...IABPs LVADs, BIVADs, pts with neutropenic sepsis, other hematological emergencies, wierd crazy diseases - this is like an every day thing, where as in many institutions you'd just be reading about these things or only be peripherally involved in the care, at columbia you are often left to deal with these high level patients - however you never feel like there isnt support since there is always someone there you can call (many attendings want to be contacted). Private/ward patients change per service...micu is closed so all are "ward" when there, ccu varies, though the ccu attendings still round on every patient and the privates cant write orders so only the residents can follow through mgmt plans. cards and onc have about 40/60 pvt to ward, but even the pvt patients, often times the privates are only peripherally involved. one disadvantage is our small MICU/CCU leading to no unit space. meaning its competitive to get ur patient there and often times its frustrating to have ur tanking post transplant septic pt with a bp of 70/20 on the floor running pressors and starting a line. the bad is its not great for patient care. the good, is that you learn quickly to manage crashing patients in any situation, whether its lining them straight up on the floor, dumping fluids and starting pressors or if its getting them inotropic support for cardiogenic shock, columbia offers a high degree of no b.s. pathology for every resident to deal with. SOcial services varies from the best to the worst depending on the floor...on the whole I will be honest, its not great - and can often be the most frustrating part of the experience. Phlebotomy is ok...morning labs and many pm labs will get drawn. There are times that stat labs will be need to drawn urselves as are timed labs. Blood cultures are drawn with am/pm labs as well, but ABGs are doctor done (at least thats what I think sicne i do them myself always anyway). ..for the real independents out there, the allen icu is an entirely intern run ICU with slightly less crazy level pathology that interns run alone - This is definitely rare since there arent many places that allow for an entire unit month with no senior physicians available...although challenging, you quickly learn to swim in the situation - and as always, there are people you can call if u need help (theres a hospitalist in house in case theres a real situation and you need help, but its great since somewhere a week into it, you realize you can manage much of the problems yourself).
In terms of the "malignant" reputation. its PURE hogwash. I think this is one of those things that everyoen hears about but its not really true. The program works hard (though work hours are super protected with average being 80-90 hours on wards, and much less 70-80 in units which isnt bad at all). The program leadership is good, and our cheifs are wonderful (and since they have recently been selected for two years in advance, I can attest we have a great set for at least two years into the future). The conferences are awesome (with food provided lunch and breakfast). The clinicians are brilliant. All in all, if I had to change one or two things about the hospital, Id tweak transport, phlebotomy and maybe our computer system - but these are all works in progress and improving constantly.
The best thing is, the front loaded part of hte program. When intern year is over, you becomea resident and get to come in later, not write notes, and completely manage the patient.
Oh and dont forget the patient population. BTW, you dont need to speak spanish to come here. Id say 75-80% of the time I dont need it since people can speak to you in english, but the 20-25% of hte time i needed one, there was a spanish interpreter around.
in terms of livign...most people live in the uws and commute up (about 5-12 minutes on the 1 train), some are more daring and liver further downtown and take the express A train. SOme live near the hospital or in riverdale, but those are less "trendy" areas of town. Either way, its NY and your so close to getting anywhere with the subway, that its always awesome. But dont come here for NY, come here for columbia, which is in and of itself a phenomenal place to train.
I am more than happy to answer any and all questions people may have and I hope people will see a better side to this program.
 
Rajvosa, whoever you are, you have no clue what Cornell residents can and cannot do. Not only do we run codes at MSKCC, we also run them as second years at NYH as the MICU resident on call. And we run them for the entire hospital. And I clearly recall a second year resident from NYU working nights with me at MSKCC who was petrified at the idea of holding a code-consult pager because they'd never run a code before.
Which is a totally normal reaction - we've all been there before - and I'm not here to blast another program. I think all of the NYC programs have their advantages and disadvantages. But, like phllystyl, I'm sick of reading comments on this forum about my program from people who have no idea what they're talking about, have vague opinions from friends who've done rotations at Cornell, or only have their interview day experiences to go on.

So here's my take on Cornell, as a third year at Cornell:
We work hard. Probably as hard as the other top programs in NYC. While, unlike NYU, we have nicer facilities and better ancillary services, our higher average patient census probably makes up for that. We do not have caps on the number of patients an intern can carry, but it rarely exceeds 15 patients.
We have a good mix of private and service patients - I'd say about 40/60. Certainly that's not worse than Tisch, and NYU residents who pride themselves on how much autonomy they have at Bellevue seem to forget that.
Attendings do not hold our hands all the time. In the rare case you have a super private wealthy upper east side patient to take care of, you may have to talk to their attending more than once/day.
But usually you are on your own when doing admissions - as a second year or third year resident, you do the admission with the intern, make all the critical decisions, and get attending feedback when you present on rounds 24 hours later. When you are alone at night with a crashing patient (which there are plenty of), there is no attending there to tell you what to do. As the MICU resident, you learn to handle it all: septic patients, acute MIs, respiratory failure, acute liver failure, you name it. And you are certified in lines by the time you finish your second year MICU rotation.

The attendings, are, for the most part, super friendly and accessible, especially the ones we spend a lot of time with, like the general medicine and the outpatient clinic attendings. The program director can be intimidating when you first meet him but there is no question in my mind and heart that he loves his residents - and the more time I spend in this program the more I realize how lucky we are to have him.
There are some private and cardiology attendings who I would be the first to say are less than friendly, but who cares? There are people like that everywhere. And they are not representative of the institution as a whole.

Yes, the strongest suit of this program is its residents. We are, for the most part, pretty cool laid back people who enjoy spending time with each other outside of work. The common housing and our shared experiences on the floors help build that bond.

In terms of how Cornell compares to Columbia, the residents up there do/see things that we don't, like heart/liver (though that's coming to Cornell) transplants, LVADs, etc. I think the reputation that Columbia is more "academic" is BS - plenty of research gets done at Cornell/Rockefeller/MSKCC which Cornell residents have access to if they want to participate. I have also heard first hand from Columbia residents that their maligant reputation is also BS.

Don't have much to say about Mt. Sinai - I think the Cornell academic reputation is supposed to be slightly better, but I don't really know why. I actually really liked Sinai when I interviewed there but don't know anyone there now so I can't compare.

I hope this was helpful to some of you - good luck to those of you applying. Follow your heart and your gut feeling. You will work hard no matter where you go. The tough part is picking a place that won't add to the misery :)
 
While I may agree with you in few points, most of it is not true. I would not reapply to Cornell if I had to do it again. Cornell housing is not much cheaper than real market housing which was my main reason for coming to Cornell.

Cornell is very malignant program. In my intern year I often carried 16-18 patients. Most patients are private (I would say about 75%) and our autonomy is thus limited. Attendings are not very friendly bunch. Although some of them do teach, most don't. They are very arrogant and demanding. They just write their little orders in the chart and ignore you. Service attendings are much nicer though. Overnight q4 call is very cruel. Postcall you almost never leave before noon.

Conferences are good to excellent. However, there is lack of food during the conferences, and the secretary will take your seconds away in front of everybody-->limit one slice of pizza or one sandwich only.

Facilities are quite good except the call rooms which are always dirty.
PD is a nice guy and very supportive.
 
Cardiology dude,

I'm sorry Cornell left such a bad taste in your mouth.
All I can say is that we have vastly different impressions of the program. And that a few things have changed since you were probably a resident.
I never left after ten thirty or eleven post call as an intern.
Q4 call for interns is actually standard at most big nyc programs.
Our censuses remain high - but 16 to 18 is not the norm for interns. 10-12 is more like it.
And, the secretary no longer limits us to one slice of pizza or sandwich at conferences.
As for relationships with attendings and the ratio of private/service patients - I have to disagree with you on that one. But you're entitled to your opinion.
 
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