NYCOM vs SGU/Ross, Accepted --> Please advice

[nlax30]

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after clicking on that link i realized that their are only about 30 derm residencies per year?!?!?! i would think we need more derm doctors around why arent there more positions for residency

You were just looking at the PGY-1 Derm positions, of which it looks like there are only ~30. I think these are the 4 year categorical programs (1st year is a general medicine internship).

Scroll down under the PGY-2 section and you'll the roughly 300 spots for Derm there.

 

[time2go]

so do some derms match into internal medicine first, im confused?

 

[shockadvised]

So here is my input.
My brother & his girlfriend are currently 3rd years at a Caribbean MD school. I also had the thought in my mind to apply and attend, but it was really a very easy choice for me to choose DO vs Caribbean MD. There is one huge reason that I am not sure anyone has touched on yet (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read all of the many responses to this question).
LOANS. As a Caribbean medical student, you don't qualify to fill out a FAFSA and therefore cannot get federal loans. My brother almost had to drop out because there were no private loan companies at a point durning his 2nd year that would take on foreign medical students. Unless you have someone funding your medical education, you will really want FAFSA to be your best friend.
Everyone else on here said the same thing about residencies. You have to nail your USMLE to get anything competitive out of a Caribbean MD school. A good US DO school like NYCOM... well just look at their match list. You can get anything you want. Obviously you have to do well on your COMLEX/USMLE no matter where you go, but its easier for a US DO than for a Caribbean MD.

After talking to my brothers friends, and himself included, many of them have told me that if they went back and had the choice, they would go DO over their original choice of the Caribbean. I have heard a couple of his friends say to me that the MD letters after their name were the number one reason for them in making the choice that they did, and that many of them now feel different. If those letters are what is important to you, please go to the Caribbean.

NYCOM also has a much better location to live. The Caribbean seems like a luxurious place to study medicine, but both Grenada and Dominica (SGU and Ross's islands) location are not. You will not be living on a resort, you will not have air conditioning in some of your classrooms. It is not as nice as it sounds. I have seen it first hand.
In my opinion, the decision is not hard to make. You just have to recognize your primary motivation for being a physician.

 

[nlax30]

so do some derms match into internal medicine first, im confused?

I'm not fully aware of all the specifics but from the little I've seen need 1yr of broad based clinical training (either a transitional/prelim year, 1 year of IM, FP, EM, etc...) and then you do 3 years of derm.

Some programs are 4 years so you just match straight into that and then they make your PGY-1 a general medicine year, in some programs you may just spend it with the IM group. For the 3 year programs you start as PGY-2 after completing 1 yr, which could be anywhere. I'm not sure on the specifics of the allo match in regards to derm, whether you match all at one time into a PGY-2 derm spot AND a perlim intern year, or if you just complete your first year somewhere and then apply for PGY-2 derm spot..... ? It may even vary depending on the program? For Osteopathic derm I don't even think some of them (all of them?) participate in the match, so there you would complete an intern year and then apply directly to the program.

 

[shockadvised]

so do some derms match into internal medicine first, im confused?

nlax is correct. I work for dermatologists (MDs) and shadowed derm DOs as well, and have inquired about this.

Regardless if you get accepted straight into a Derm residency or if you do a IM internship for a year, you will do something else for a year before you start out doing your Derm roations. That can include IM, general surg, psych, or peds. You will then go on to do your last three years working in derm.

On a total side note--IMO, after working for dermatologists, I find it extremely boring and would never want to do it myself. The only benefit I see is the huge amount of money they make But I guess I just don't have the personality to be a dermatologist. Luck to those who do, however, I hear its really freaking hard to get into!

 

[medhearter]

you know if you do want to do surgery, somehow I feel that SGU might be a better option. just in looking at SGUs match lists, there're a LOT of people matching surgery.. now i donno if this list (that the SGU interviewer sent to me) is incomplete but... in looking at DO match lists in UMDNJ and Western ... I really can only see... primary care... I donno if I'm looking in the wrong place but... there's something unexpected indeed that SGU matches more students into competitive residencies... you should really look into this.. might be because they're sooo many more SGU grads to begin with, i donno

oh infact, look this person up, he matched ORTHOpedic surgery coming from SGU: Dzaja Ivan

 

[medhearter]

ohhh i just looked at NYCOM's match list....

and it DOES look better than SGUs, I can tell you that much.

chk it out:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7413803&postcount=291

 

[nlax30]

Didn't realize that SGU had SOO many students.... they're at a little over 3,000 students in the MD program, so ~700 in each class??

 

[medhearter]

ummm... 700 look like a small number to you?

edit: ah i misinterpreted the tone

 

[bkpa2med]

NYCOM -- period.

 

[JaggerPlate]

you know if you do want to do surgery, somehow I feel that SGU might be a better option. just in looking at SGUs match lists, there're a LOT of people matching surgery.. now i donno if this list (that the SGU interviewer sent to me) is incomplete but... in looking at DO match lists in UMDNJ and Western ... I really can only see... primary care... I donno if I'm looking in the wrong place but... there's something unexpected indeed that SGU matches more students into competitive residencies... you should really look into this.. might be because they're sooo many more SGU grads to begin with, i donno

oh infact, look this person up, he matched ORTHOpedic surgery coming from SGU: Dzaja Ivan

You are definitely seeing this wrong. DOs match better into every field. Period. If you are seeing less surgery from DO lists, it's because surgery was less popular. Also, keep in mind that SGUs lists are who even matched, and that 1-2 surgeries out of 700 people isn't impressive. I'd be interested to know what that student did to match ortho, how many times it took him, USMLE, etc.

 

[pietachok]

I'm not getting a D.O., so I'm not biased on that side of the argument. I'd definitely go to NYCOM.

If you want to do even a moderately competitive residency, at least the AOA has their own residencies for D.O.'s. The FMG's (foreign medical grads) only have the M.D. residencies to try for. One thing you don't see on the match list for those Carib schools is that some of those students have been graduated for several years and have failed to match in previous years.

When it comes to matching in allopathic residencies, D.O.'s do better than U.S.-citizen FMG's who do better than non-U.S. citizen FMG's. Here are this years statistics for those graduates who attempted to match into an allopathic residency but were unsuccessful (in parenth. are last yr's percentages):

US-educated MD's: 6.9 % of those applying (last yr 5.8)
Previous graduates of MD programs: 55.4% of those applying(56%)
D.O. graduates: 30.1% of those applying (28.4%)
Canadian-educated MD's: 28.6% of those applying (28.8%)
5th pathway applicants: 61.3% of those applying (51%)
US Citizen FMGs: 52.2% of those applying (48.1%)
Non US Citizen FMGs: 58.4% of those applying (57.6%)
***********************************************
Total applicants Unmatched: 28.6% of those applying (last yr was 27.1%)

So, 30% of D.O.'s didn't match into an allo residency but they can either apply to an osteo residency next year or I think possibly scramble osteo. The ~half of FMG M.D.'s who didn't match...they don't have that alternative route and will face worsening match rates every year they reapply.

As you can see, the % of unmatched applicants is creeping up every year and although FMG's and D.O.'s are both doing worse, without that option of an osteo residency, I'd be scared what would happen as an FMG when the new U.S. med schools finally graduate their first classes (I believe we're talking 4 M.D. programs and 3 D.O. programs?). The # of residency spots is not going to increase as rapidly as the # of U.S. graduates.

And just to assuage any fears, my mother is a top-ranked M.D. who ends up training a lot of D.O. residents and fellows. Some of her best students have been D.O.'s, and some of her worst have been M.D.'s. Being a good physician has more to do with you once you have gotten the privilege of obtaining a U.S. medical education--it's so standardized, you don't really need to worry about where you are going beyond whether or not you are a good fit and you are happy. I think you will find far more unhappy students in the Carib, as those for-profit schools often lose abut 50% of their class b/c they don't care if you fail out.

 

[ny skindoc]

In past years it may have been a more difficult choice,but there is little question that DO is now the way to go. The residency match is going to be increasingly difficult as the number of medical grads of all kind increase substantially and post grad residency slots do not change much. Its already becoming a problem.As a DO grad you will have osteopathic residencies to consider as well as ACGME positions. The clout of an ever increasing osteopathic profession with its many new schools,grads and influence will support your career.
NYCOM is a well known med school in the New York area and will position you well.

 

[DrFraud]

While I don't want this to turn into another DO vs Caribbean MD debate,dominate, I think its pretty simple why people go to Caribbean vs DO. Frankly they don't want a DO next to their name. If its THAT big of a deal to them, then I say good riddance, I would not want a colleague that is unhappy about two stinking letters next to their name 🙄.

There are actually a lot of reasons why students go to the Carib to become Allopaths, and sometimes you are correct, it's because of the letters and general name recognition of an allopathic degree, but some students simply don't subscribe to the philosophical differences, which some DOs like to point out and others try and obfuscate.

I've read many posts by DO students saying there are no differences between DOs and MDs and I have seen many advertisments by DOs claiming they are specially trained and superior to MDs. The bottom like is there are differenses between the two routes (Carib vs DO) in terms of perception and philosophy, and possibly residency depending on which Carib and DO program is being compared, but all of these pale in comparison to how well someone applies themselves. Good luck what ever you decide upon.

 

[sarahg]

There are actually a lot of reasons why students go to the Carib to become Allopaths, and sometimes you are correct, it's because of the letters and general name recognition of an allopathic degree, but some students simply don't subscribe to the philosophical differences, which some DOs like to point out and others try and obfuscate.

I've read many posts by DO students saying there are no differences between DOs and MDs and I have seen many advertisments by DOs claiming they are specially trained and superior to MDs. The bottom like is there are differenses between the two routes (Carib vs DO) in terms of perception and philosophy, and possibly residency depending on which Carib and DO program is being compared, but all of these pale in comparison to how well someone applies themselves. Good luck what ever you decide upon.

I agree with you, though I would think the degree of difference between MD/DO philosphy probably varies from school to school.

A couple of other reasons (that may or may not be relevant depending on the Osteopathic and Carribbean schools in question)...
Location -- Caribbean schools are on tropical islands. Even if these islands are third world countries, the location beats the locations of many DO schools. If all else was equal, I'd rather live on Grenada than in Iowa or West Virginia (no offense to residents of those places, it's just my personal preference, and yes I have tropical developing country experience).
Fit -- Looking through the literature of SGU, it seems to emphasize international underserved area work, which is what a lot of students want to do. Many DO schools emphasize primary care, which many students do not want to do. So some students who only got into one or two DO schools that turned out not to be good fits for them may feel a better "fit" in the Carib.
Matching -- Yes, the DO student match rate for allopathic residencies is higher than the general FMG match rate. But, some of the top schools of the Carib (like SGU) claim match rates around 100%. If the student is intent on an allopathic residency, the numbers may be more in their favor in the Carib than at some DO schools.

I'm not trying to bash DO schools at all or imply that foreign school is the way to go for most. I'm considering DO myself (as well as US and foreign MD -- I'll go where I'm accepted). These are just some valid reasons why someone would go Caribbean rather than DO -- it's not always about having your ego tied up in the letters.

 

[TXDO]

changed

 

[TXDO]

In addition to what I have said above, I want to emphasize: this is DO forum so when someone wants to compare DO to other things, the obvious answer will be DO. Whoever asked this, don't you think it's just a wasted time question. It's doesn't matter what school you are going to, it's matter if you can get through it.

Thank you.😀

 

[bioman2006]

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[TXDO]

There are actually a lot of reasons why students go to the Carib to become Allopaths, and sometimes you are correct, it's because of the letters and general name recognition of an allopathic degree, but some students simply don't subscribe to the philosophical differences, which some DOs like to point out and others try and obfuscate.

I've read many posts by DO students saying there are no differences between DOs and MDs and I have seen many advertisments by DOs claiming they are specially trained and superior to MDs. The bottom like is there are differenses between the two routes (Carib vs DO) in terms of perception and philosophy, and possibly residency depending on which Carib and DO program is being compared, but all of these pale in comparison to how well someone applies themselves. Good luck what ever you decide upon.

Thank you for this opinion, but deep down, I still think you just avoid to see a reality that you are FMG, no more or no less than that. I doubt if you had a chance to get in DO school.

To all of you who said the reason you refer Caribbean medical school over US DO school is that you do not like the DO philosophy, please cut that crap. I am so sick with that opinion. Let me tell you the reason why, it is because you applied to US MD schools, and you do not get in, DO is only left choice for you besides the phony foreign medical schools which they let you be called MD. I am sure you even not get in to DO school so now you bash DO profession. It's so pathetic. Am I right? Sure I am right. I did not get in MD school but get in to DO school. However, at least I do not dare to say that I do not like DO philosophy. I am so thankful that DO school gave me a chance to become doctor and anything else I don't care. They talk about this philosophy that philosophy but how many of you would understand huh?

Please get it real and do not bash DO profession. Personally, I think medical schools are the same, regardless they are DO or MD. At the end, you will become doctor and you treat patients, you make them feel better, who care if that comes from DO or MD phiolosophy. If you want to go to Caribbean school, then go ahead, please do not talk bad about DO profession.

Moreover, when you apply for residency, I am sure residency programs will treat DOs more favorable than foreign MDs and DOs have two options DO and MD residencies. Who said DOs can only do primary care? and Who said only foreign MDs have more chances than DOs to get in hard specialties? It's totally biased. Please Remember this: foreign school is still foreign school, it doesn't matter if it's St. George or Ross or whatever it is. Stigma will tag along with you for the rest of your life --> " Made in China". DO, on the other hand is US school--> " Made in USA". If I am a patient, I would pick DO doctor rather than choose some foreign doctors who were trained in the 3rd world country.

Thank you.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Unless a person has lived and been stuck somewhere off shore, they really do not have any comparison to make to going to Iowa or anywhere else. Talk to some physicians who've graduated from Ross or SGU (I have). They'll tell you that it was very, very isolated, and they all get 'rock fever' and just want to get back to the US where things are how they're used to.

Views about DO vs MD have a lot of regional bias. On the east or west coast, generally, people seem far more worried that it is a big deal. Around NJ/PA and the Ohio/Michigan area, they are so evenly mixed in some areas that it is practically irrelevant.

With the exception of OMM, which most don't even use after the class is over, we take the same classes, rotate through the same hospitals, apply for a lot of the same residency programs. Today, there is no difference in philosophy. My advice today is stay in the US - save your money (travel costs, not to mention school costs, etc.) It isn't worth moving your life out of the country and then back again.

 

[Optimator]

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[TXDO]

Unless a person has lived and been stuck somewhere off shore, they really do not have any comparison to make to going to Iowa or anywhere else. Talk to some physicians who've graduated from Ross or SGU (I have). They'll tell you that it was very, very isolated, and they all get 'rock fever' and just want to get back to the US where things are how they're used to.

Views about DO vs MD have a lot of regional bias. On the east or west coast, generally, people seem far more worried that it is a big deal. Around NJ/PA and the Ohio/Michigan area, they are so evenly mixed in some areas that it is practically irrelevant.

With the exception of OMM, which most don't even use after the class is over, we take the same classes, rotate through the same hospitals, apply for a lot of the same residency programs. Today, there is no difference in philosophy. My advice today is stay in the US - save your money (travel costs, not to mention school costs, etc.) It isn't worth moving your life out of the country and then back again.

Thank you for your true and neutral opinion. I agreed with that. I am a bit confused when you said "On the east or west coast, generally, people seem far more worried that it is a big deal" . Can you specifically clarify that? what is the big deal are u talking about here?🙂

 

[rkaz]

Thank you for this opinion, but deep down, I still think you just avoid to see a reality that you are FMG, no more or no less than that. I doubt if you had a chance to get in DO school.

To all of you who said the reason you refer Caribbean medical school over US DO school is that you do not like the DO philosophy, please cut that crap. I am so sick with that opinion. Let me tell you the reason why, it is because you applied to US MD schools, and you do not get in, DO is only left choice for you besides the phony foreign medical schools which they let you be called MD. I am sure you even not get in to DO school so now you bash DO profession. It's so pathetic. Am I right? Sure I am right. I did not get in MD school but get in to DO school. However, at least I do not dare to say that I do not like DO philosophy. I am so thankful that DO school gave me a chance to become doctor and anything else I don't care. They talk about this philosophy that philosophy but how many of you would understand huh?

Please get it real and do not bash DO profession. Personally, I think medical schools are the same, regardless they are DO or MD. At the end, you will become doctor and you treat patients, you make them feel better, who care if that comes from DO or MD philosophy. If you want to go to Caribbean school, then go ahead, please do not talk bad about DO profession.

Moreover, when you apply for residency, I am sure residency programs will treat DOs more favorable than foreign MDs and DOs have two options DO and MD residencies. Who said DOs can only do primary care? and Who said only foreign MDs have more chances than DOs to get in hard specialties? It's totally biased. Please Remember this: foreign school is still foreign school, it doesn't matter if it's St. George or Ross or whatever it is. Stigma will tag along with you for the rest of your life --> " Made in China". DO, on the other hand is US school--> " Made in USA". If I am a patient, I would pick DO doctor rather than choose some foreign doctors who were trained in the 3rd world country.

Thank you.

Your prejudiced attitute toward FMG's is really not cool. I know several people who chose to go to SGU over DO schools. I plan on matriculating at a DO school this year (unless I get off my in-state MD waitlist, then I may reconsider to save money on tuition)... but one of my future DO classmates told me that if he had been accepted to SGU (he wasn't and he applied there twice) he would have gone there instead.

I was accepted to a few DO schools as well as SGU, and I am choosing to stay in the US and go to osteopathic school. However, plenty of other people have made the opposite choice. Due to the shrinking US residency opportunities in the future, it seems like going to a DO school over Caribbean school is more prudent if one wants to work in the US in the future. However just because going to a DO school may be a wiser choice at this time, there is no reason on earth to insult someone choosing to go to a foreign school or assume that they couldn't get accepted to an osteopathic school. It's offensive when US MD, Carib MD, or DO students start putting each other down and act like they are better than the other. All of us will be colleagues so there is no reason to act like that. Telling an FMG "I bet you couldn't get into a DO school" is no way to talk to another person.

 

[TXDO]

Your prejudiced attitute toward FMG's is really not cool. I know several people who chose to go to SGU over DO schools. I plan on matriculating at a DO school this year (unless I get off my in-state MD waitlist, then I may reconsider to save money on tuition)... but one of my future DO classmates told me that if he had been accepted to SGU (he wasn't and he applied there twice) he would have gone there instead.

I was accepted to a few DO schools as well as SGU, and I am choosing to stay in the US and go to osteopathic school. However, plenty of other people have made the opposite choice. Due to the shrinking US residency opportunities in the future, it seems like going to a DO school over Caribbean school is more prudent if one wants to work in the US in the future. However just because going to a DO school may be a wiser choice at this time, there is no reason on earth to insult someone choosing to go to a foreign school or assume that they couldn't get accepted to an osteopathic school. It's offensive when US MD, Carib MD, or DO students start putting each other down and act like they are better than the other. All of us will be colleagues so there is no reason to act like that. Telling an FMG "I bet you couldn't get into a DO school" is no way to talk to another person.

I know I sounded harsh on FMG students. I apologized for that. I was so angry when I read some comments which people tried to sabotage DO profession. What do they mean when they said they don't like DO philosophy? All they care is the 2 letters after their names, nothing to do DO philosophy. SO STOP LYING. It's not cool either.
I just don't get it. Even now, people still debate over MD vs. DO. Just because of 2 letters MD, they spend years in the 3rd world country. I am not sure if it's worth.
Lastly, after I read your post, I laughed my *** off when you concluded that you will attend DO school. What's different buddy? Somehow, I saw you defended SGU more than DO. What's a paradox!
Anyway, I think this argument should be stopped.

 

[slight365]

A lot of people are only mentioning the initial matching and initial portion of the career. Is an MD from the Caribbean more likely to gain ultimately higher positions?

Based only on the initial, and if money is no object, I'd do NYCOM. Good location, administration sucks, but one can stay in the NYC area and I think that's what they're really charging for and keeping the NYIT sinking ship afloat.

Is DO also transferable throughout the world? Not that it matters to many, but it could matter to some. I'm wondering if eventually DO students will not be allowed to take the USMLE in the future.

If you really want an MD and are willing to pay as much as NYCOM costs, why not go to Europe?

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Its far better to go to a school within the United States, whether MD or DO, than to go to a foreign school. Overall the match rates for USIMGs are much lower than for DO graduates. If you want something competitive you can forget about it coming out of a Caribbean school. You are much better off going to school in the US than going overseas. Its also becoming harder to get financial aid for foreign schools. The biggest private lender for offshore schools, TERI, stopped lending for foreign medical schools a couple of years ago. Also you will have to consider how you will survive in a third world country, without many of things you take for granted. I actually live overseas right now in another first world English speaking country and things are not completely the same, so a developing country will be much harder. MD or DO really does not make much of a difference if you plan to work in the US. MD might be more readily recognized overseas but even so its not easy to cross borders as a doctor. And honestly the US is the best country in the world to practice medicine.

 

[slight365]

whether MD or DO, than to go to a foreign school. Overall the match rates for USIMGs are much lower than for DO graduates.

I'll have to argue that a grad of Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, Heidelberg, Munich, and others in the UK, Germany, Switzerland, and other countries will have a pretty good chance of opportunities coming back than students who are from the US and in lower ranked schools than those. Even try Australia. They have one of the top ranked med schools also. Hungary also has English speaking medical programs with USDOJ recognition.

I don't believe the matching problem is across the board for foreign students. I know plenty who have gone overseas and done what they wanted. Statistically, perhaps there's a disadvantage, but case by case still exists.

 

[DrFraud]

I think the idea that a U.S. student gets significant exposure to health care in underdeveloped countries by going to a Carib. program is not really accurate. In general, about 20 months or so are spent in the Carib. and the rest are usually spent in the States, with a concentration of hospital affiliations being in the NorthEast, so if your comparing clinical experience of a student who attends a Carib. program in comparison to a student who attends a LCME allopathic program, there is often not a significant variance. Most of the time spent on a Carib island is classroom based and is studying.

Another misconception is that Carib. programs are unregulated or unaccredited. The major programs including AUC, Ross, SGU, and Saba are on the accredited list in 50 states, and there are quite a bit of rules and regs. that these programs have to follow to keep up their accredition. In addition, AUC, Ross, and SGU recieve title iv fed stafford loans, so there are many other regs these programs have to follow in terms of oversight.

As far as match rates go for U.S students who go to Carib programs, a number of factors can impact success. Students who attend Carib programs that are accredited in 50 states and who do reasonable well on their step exams, who are not a menace to society in clinic, and who apply smartly come the match will have no problem matching into an ACGME residency. Students who have boarderline step scores, who have sub par clinical evaluation, who attend programs that have are not accredited in 50 states (so that where these students can do residency is limited) and do not apply to programs intelligently are usually the students who have difficulty matching. Similar issues would apply for DOs. DO students who attend upstart programs, with boarderline Step scores and sub par evaluations will have many of the same challanges if they wish to go ACGME.

Finally, I can't compare my experience to SGU or Ross, as I have neither been to Grenada or Dominica, but I can say that my experience in St. Martin for 20 months was anything but a hardship. There have been about a dozen times or so this winter I wanted to jump on a plane and spend a week on the beach that was a 5 minute walk from Campus. Yes, St. Martin is not a bed of roses, but neither is living in many places in the States, and living in St. Martin was an experience that for me was a great one that I am totally glad I experienced.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Thank you for your true and neutral opinion. I agreed with that. I am a bit confused when you said "On the east or west coast, generally, people seem far more worried that it is a big deal" . Can you specifically clarify that? what is the big deal are u talking about here?🙂

Sorry. I just meant that pre-med students worry that it is a big deal (manufacture huge differences in their minds) if they come from an area on the east or west coast, because they don't see the same kind of ratio of DO to MD and pre-meds from other areas. I'm from the east coast and worried about it, and having been in the midwest now, in a place where it is about 50-50, I laugh at myself 2 years ago, and this whole argument today. These are essentially pre-med arguments that disappear so fast.

If a person is worrying about matching into a competitive area (before even starting classes yet!!! 😀 LOL!) they should think very practically about this. As an MD student, you will only have the MD match. You will be up against the stiffest competition. If you have had challenges getting accepted into med school for any reason, consider where that could put you later. That is, you've already competed against these people for acceptance to school and been ranked (rightly or wrongly) against them. Of course it may be irrelevant at match time - which may be you hoping not, or it may really not matter. Either way, it will be very competitive, just by shear number of applicants, unless you are willing to settle for a location that may not be ideal, and even then, there's competition.

If you are a DO student, you have both matches. In a competitive specialty, it may or may not be worth going through the MD match (you'll have to decide that when the time comes) but going into the DO match, you are ONLY trying to match against DO students. True, they will also be very competitive. But the number of applicants and likely familiarity you will have with the program make it far a more realistic goal.

So for all those derm & ortho dreamers - this means you are far more likely to get to go into ortho or derm or whatever as a DO matching in the DO match than you would be as an MD trying to match in the MD match.

 

[rkaz]

Lastly, after I read your post, I laughed my *** off when you concluded that you will attend DO school. What's different buddy? Somehow, I saw you defended SGU more than DO. What's a paradox!

My defense of SGU doesn't in any way make me a traitor to the osteopathic medical profession. I defended SGU because you were suggesting that Carib MD students couldn't get accepted to DO schools - which is completely untrue, as I know MANY who were accepted to both and chose the Carib. In fact, if students didn't face this dilemma of being accepted to both schools, then all these "Carib MD or US DO?" threads wouldn't exist in the first place.

I stood up for SGU because this is an osteo forum with a natural bias towards DO. I didn't want people to spread misinformation. However, you can bet that when I am in the Pre-Allo, Allo, or Caribbean forums (or on ValueMD), I am equally vocal in defending DO students when the MD students project their own bias or misinformation. I don't feel the need to protect any side - I simply want people to present accurate information.

 

[rkaz]

If you are a DO student, you have both matches. In a competitive specialty, it may or may not be worth going through the MD match (you'll have to decide that when the time comes) but going into the DO match, you are ONLY trying to match against DO students. True, they will also be very competitive. But the number of applicants and likely familiarity you will have with the program make it far a more realistic goal.

So for all those derm & ortho dreamers - this means you are far more likely to get to go into ortho or derm or whatever as a DO matching in the DO match than you would be as an MD trying to match in the MD match.

Your argument does make sense... however, we are assuming things stay the status quo for the next 3 years until it is our turn to apply for the match. If the DO match ends up opening to MD students (as many people would like), then all bets are off... as plenty of MD students would be thrilled to have extra DO residencies in derm or ortho to apply to. Then I'm not sure if it would still be easier for a DO to get into a derm or ortho spot (whether MD or DO residency) as compared to an MD student.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Your argument does make sense... however, we are assuming things stay the status quo for the next 3 years until it is our turn to apply for the match. If the DO match ends up opening to MD students (as many people would like), then all bets are off... as plenty of MD students would be thrilled to have extra DO residencies in derm or ortho to apply to. Then I'm not sure if it would still be easier for a DO to get into a derm or ortho spot (whether MD or DO residency) as compared to an MD student.

Well, we can only go on what we've got currently, I guess. But even if that did happen, FMG's would still have a slimmer chance compared to DO's than they do now. I didn't say no chance, just slimmer. There is still a general order preference that won't change. The numbers bear this out.

Good luck everyone!

 

[JanikeyDoc]

I'll have to argue that a grad of Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, Heidelberg, Munich, and others in the UK, Germany, Switzerland, and other countries will have a pretty good chance of opportunities coming back than students who are from the US and in lower ranked schools than those. Even try Australia. They have one of the top ranked med schools also. Hungary also has English speaking medical programs with USDOJ recognition.

I don't believe the matching problem is across the board for foreign students. I know plenty who have gone overseas and done what they wanted. Statistically, perhaps there's a disadvantage, but case by case still exists.

Graduates of medical schools in other developed nations are a whole other issue. I actually live in Sydney Australia and spoke with a few North Americans who are studying in Aussie schools, its not easy to go back to the US from overseas. Medical schools in Western Europe are top caliber also but its fact that if you are in the US you stand a better chance of getting into a US residency program. Generally speaking I have only met a handful of IMGs from other Western nations, they generally do well in the match, but they represent the elite from their countries. These are true foreign graduates who are citizens of their respective countries not US or Canadian students going overseas for medical school. If the choice is between Caribbean and US DO, the latter is a much better route. Caribbean schools are for profit enterprises as well.

Lower ranked or upper ranked really does not matter, it is up to the individual student.

Also the MD vs. DO international practice rights issue will mostly be moot, US doctors have it better than anyone else in the world. I have personally seen how the Australian public treats their doctors, which is why I decided not to apply to Aussie schools.

 

[Orthodoc40]

why is this funny to you?

Probably because at least a third of the premeds and first years you'll talk to think that's what they want and are going to do.

 

[TXDO]

Probably because at least a third of the premeds and first years you'll talk to think that's what they want and are going to do.

Hahah, that's true.

 

[gtleeee]

NYCOM. Hands down. Most of these discussions are about new DO schools vs SGU ... but established DO school vs SGU = DO. You should read up on some threads about increasing US MD and DO class sizes, and what it can mean for FMGs matching. If you want Gas or Ortho like you said ... DO no doubt. DOs match very well in ACGME Gas, and you can check out the AOA (DO only) ortho residencies at: http://opportunities.osteopathic.org

SGU is the one Carribbean school whose graduates I have learned (working besides them in emergency rooms over 2 decades), are often top notch. I am a D.O., having graduated in 1985.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Good lord, are we still arguing about this?

OP: For the love of God go to NYCOM. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Don't let anyone else bluff you on this. I'd be very pleased to be able to go to a school like NYCOM, and I think most on this board would also. It's one of the better-regarded DO schools and (get this) it's actually in the US...which means you won't have to deal with the tremendous matching issues FMG graduates face. Don't get hung up on the whole "DO vs MD" bit - for all intents and purposes it's a distinction without a difference.

Choosing SGU or Ross over a superb DO school like NYCOM would be like buying a Yugo when you could have had a Civic.

 

[chocolaterie]

Choosing SGU or Ross over a superb DO school like NYCOM would be like buying a Yugo when you could have had a Civic.

 

[TXDO]

Good lord, are we still arguing about this?

Choosing SGU or Ross over a superb DO school like NYCOM would be like buying a Yugo when you could have had a Civic.[/quote]

Best quotes of my day.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Thank you for this opinion, but deep down, I still think you just avoid to see a reality that you are FMG, no more or no less than that. I doubt if you had a chance to get in DO school.

To all of you who said the reason you refer Caribbean medical school over US DO school is that you do not like the DO philosophy, please cut that crap. I am so sick with that opinion. Let me tell you the reason why, it is because you applied to US MD schools, and you do not get in, DO is only left choice for you besides the phony foreign medical schools which they let you be called MD. I am sure you even not get in to DO school so now you bash DO profession. It's so pathetic. Am I right? Sure I am right. I did not get in MD school but get in to DO school. However, at least I do not dare to say that I do not like DO philosophy. I am so thankful that DO school gave me a chance to become doctor and anything else I don't care. They talk about this philosophy that philosophy but how many of you would understand huh?

Please get it real and do not bash DO profession. Personally, I think medical schools are the same, regardless they are DO or MD. At the end, you will become doctor and you treat patients, you make them feel better, who care if that comes from DO or MD phiolosophy. If you want to go to Caribbean school, then go ahead, please do not talk bad about DO profession.

Moreover, when you apply for residency, I am sure residency programs will treat DOs more favorable than foreign MDs and DOs have two options DO and MD residencies. Who said DOs can only do primary care? and Who said only foreign MDs have more chances than DOs to get in hard specialties? It's totally biased. Please Remember this: foreign school is still foreign school, it doesn't matter if it's St. George or Ross or whatever it is. Stigma will tag along with you for the rest of your life --> " Made in China". DO, on the other hand is US school--> " Made in USA". If I am a patient, I would pick DO doctor rather than choose some foreign doctors who were trained in the 3rd world country.

Thank you.

He didn't bash the DO philosophy, he was actually objective and respectful.
No I think Dr Fraud actually goes to AUC, which is one of the better Caribbean schools, so don't say he couldn't get into a DO school because the whole grade replacement rule can make a huge huge difference. For all you know, maybe you couldn't have gotten into his school.
You actually have no Idea what you are talking about and this is why no one can ever have a DO compared to MD discussion. You obviously have a complex about being a DO and it ruins it for the rest of us.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Lastly, after I read your post, I laughed my *** off when you concluded that you will attend DO school. What's different buddy? Somehow, I saw you defended SGU more than DO. What's a paradox!
Anyway, I think this argument should be stopped.

This person is being objective, you don't make any sense. This is not an argument, its a discussion in reference to the OP, you are the only one arguing because you are taking it personally. So far pretty much every one you complain about is saying both choices are good and you are imagining differently.

 

[JaggerPlate]

He didn't bash the DO philosophy, he was actually objective and respectful.
No I think Dr Fraud actually goes to AUC, which is one of the better Caribbean schools, so don't say he couldn't get into a DO school because the whole grade replacement rule can make a huge huge difference. For all you know, maybe you couldn't have gotten into his school.
You actually have no Idea what you are talking about and this is why no one can ever have a DO compared to MD discussion. You obviously have a complex about being a DO and it ruins it for the rest of us.

Wow.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Wow.

Yes wow.

 

[rishi718]

okay, so i just read through this entire discussion when im supposed to be studying for boards

and that info about 54 percent carib kids not matching, gave me an anxiety attack, and i had to take a break. esp considering this is prolly cus they didnt do too well on test im takin very soon....=(

when i was makin this decision as undergrad, my premed advisor (at a top 25 university) told me to forget about DO.
then I called a Program Director at LA childrens hospital, and she told me that lotsa her peer PD dont even interview DO's

that was enough to throw me off. I'm pretty sure i got screwed over in my info sources in the long run. because cali just has issues with DO's i think (they had a very interesting duel in the 80's look it up on wiki, suing eachother back and forth, actually converting DO schools overnight to MD and taking away DO licenses etc etc)

essentially i left the country cus "everythings fine when u nail the boards" which is pretty much proven at top foreign schools. what i didnt factor in, was whether DO's wanna admit it or not, there average MCATs are lower, and maybe had I been competing with other DO's for a DO residency, i could have better chances.

i didnt officially regret my decision until i was running into an office late for an apt with opthomologist, and as i ran by the door, it said DO. whether he had MD residency or DO (way more likely) the fact was I still had to pay him 150 bucks for ten minutes.

but then again. everything will be fine once u nail the step. so im gonna go study and officially end my 8 hr sdn bs session. peace

 

[Asianjock903]

that was enough to throw me off. I'm pretty sure i got screwed over in my info sources in the long run. because cali just has issues with DO's i think (they had a very interesting duel in the 80's look it up on wiki, suing eachother back and forth, actually converting DO schools overnight to MD and taking away DO licenses etc etc)

UCI medical school was one of those DO schools that turned into a MD school in the 80's following this "duel". Also, they didn't just take away DO licenses, they offered all cali DO's the chance to pay $80 and convert their DO degrees to MD's.

 

[illegallysmooth]

skipping everything already written

GO TO NYCOM.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Ummm... this thread is about a year old.


Regardless, the entire goal is to finish once you start. You have a much higher likelihood of that happening if you matriculate to a DO school rather than the carribean. In addition, NYCOM has had many good matches in the past few years

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree with instate, but had to make one comment ...

This CA "feud" happened in the 60s, not the 80s. Think Paul McCartney, not Rick Astley ...

 

[mspeedwagon]

The below is not true about AUC, Ross and St. George. All those three schools qualify for federal loans. I'm going to assume the posters brother and gf do not go to one of these three schools, in which case I fully agree that loans are an issue.

As for the original post, I think we can eliminate Ross from your choices. St. George is a much better school (given their USMLE pass rates etc.).

As to NYCOM vs St. George, I don't think it is as easy a decision as every makes it out to be. There are pros and cons to both. But, I agree that if you intend to practice in the US your whole life, then NYCOM is definitely the way to go.

A lot of foreign countries do not recognize DOs and do not give them the same priviliges to practice so if you intend to travel worldwide and practice in many different countries, there is some merit to obtaining an M.D. and among Carb. medical schools, St. George has the best record.

Also, the Chief Medical Officer at my company, who is at retirement age now, thinks lesser of D.O.s and has advised people to go foreign before D.O. BUT, this view has changed and I don't think his view has much merit any more. At one time, probably early in his practice this was true, but D.O.s vs. M.D. makes little difference now within the US.

So here is my input.
My brother & his girlfriend are currently 3rd years at a Caribbean MD school. I also had the thought in my mind to apply and attend, but it was really a very easy choice for me to choose DO vs Caribbean MD. There is one huge reason that I am not sure anyone has touched on yet (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read all of the many responses to this question).
LOANS. As a Caribbean medical student, you don't qualify to fill out a FAFSA and therefore cannot get federal loans. My brother almost had to drop out because there were no private loan companies at a point durning his 2nd year that would take on foreign medical students. Unless you have someone funding your medical education, you will really want FAFSA to be your best friend.
Everyone else on here said the same thing about residencies. You have to nail your USMLE to get anything competitive out of a Caribbean MD school. A good US DO school like NYCOM... well just look at their match list. You can get anything you want. Obviously you have to do well on your COMLEX/USMLE no matter where you go, but its easier for a US DO than for a Caribbean MD.

After talking to my brothers friends, and himself included, many of them have told me that if they went back and had the choice, they would go DO over their original choice of the Caribbean. I have heard a couple of his friends say to me that the MD letters after their name were the number one reason for them in making the choice that they did, and that many of them now feel different. If those letters are what is important to you, please go to the Caribbean.

NYCOM also has a much better location to live. The Caribbean seems like a luxurious place to study medicine, but both Grenada and Dominica (SGU and Ross's islands) location are not. You will not be living on a resort, you will not have air conditioning in some of your classrooms. It is not as nice as it sounds. I have seen it first hand.
In my opinion, the decision is not hard to make. You just have to recognize your primary motivation for being a physician.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

The below is not true about AUC, Ross and St. George. All those three schools qualify for federal loans. I'm going to assume the posters brother and gf do not go to one of these three schools, in which case I fully agree that loans are an issue.

As for the original post, I think we can eliminate Ross from your choices. St. George is a much better school (given their USMLE pass rates etc.).

As to NYCOM vs St. George, I don't think it is as easy a decision as every makes it out to be. There are pros and cons to both. But, I agree that if you intend to practice in the US your whole life, then NYCOM is definitely the way to go.

A lot of foreign countries do not recognize DOs and do not give them the same priviliges to practice so if you intend to travel worldwide and practice in many different countries, there is some merit to obtaining an M.D. and among Carb. medical schools, St. George has the best record.

Also, the Chief Medical Officer at my company, who is at retirement age now, thinks lesser of D.O.s and has advised people to go foreign before D.O. BUT, this view has changed and I don't think his view has much merit any more. At one time, probably early in his practice this was true, but D.O.s vs. M.D. makes little difference now within the US.

did you realize this thread is a year old?