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Its official. I wonder if Temple will follow suit.
NYCPM finally does away with the DAT
- Thread starter OhEmGee
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Its official. I wonder if Temple will follow suit.
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I sorta doubt Temple will follow suit in the near future. Somebody just posted in the pre-pod section that they committed to temple like two days ago... Obviously they are having trouble filling their classes if the are still accepting students within a week of classes starting...
Also, I foresee a declining applicant pool for next year considering the residency shortage, etc etc. The larger schools will either fill their classes with even more unqualified applicants, in Temple's case: continue to accept the DAT, or go unfilled...
I think we all have a hunch which of those will get ruled out mighty quickly...
Also, I foresee a declining applicant pool for next year considering the residency shortage, etc etc. The larger schools will either fill their classes with even more unqualified applicants, in Temple's case: continue to accept the DAT, or go unfilled...
I think we all have a hunch which of those will get ruled out mighty quickly...
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Hopefully it works itself out. If we have a residency shortage and there are schools that are having trouble filling seats at the same time, maybe those seats shouldn't be filled at all. If those schools depend on these seats being filled to stay afloat then i question those schools...
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Explain?
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pretty solid gpa and mcat averages for the NYCPM class of 2016. word on the street is that 2017s numbers are even better.
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Our "last minute" people were very qualified. A DO student who decided to switch to pod, guys who where accepted at dental but choose pod. left Phd for pod and more. The DAT guys had high grades and qualifications.
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Your explanation of my uninformed post doesn't address anything I said...
Reread my post and you'll realize I said nothing that the recent acceptances by Temple are unqualified. But rather, they need to continue to accept the DAT to fill their classes.
If they don't, they'll NEED to accept "unqualified" applicants to fill their seats.
Nice try, though.
No, all schools stop taking GRE about 4 years ago.
Even AZ Pod with its low number of seats had a seat open as of a week ago. Some people just don't show or withdrawal last second so no Temple doesn't need to accept DAT just because we had 2 people come in this week. Filling seats a week before or even after class starts due to no shows is actually quite common regardless if it's MD, DO, DPM, DMD, Law School, undergrad, etc.
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How many students are accepted each year by Temple who take the DAT? It is irrelevant if the two seats they had open as of last week were filled by DAT takers or not - it matters how many are accepted regularly.
Also, it doesn't matter how common it is in any professional school - it matters that they are filling part of their class with DAT students, and if they didn't, they'd either not fill their class, or fill it with less qualified MCAT students.
"I sorta doubt Temple will follow suit in the near future. Somebody just posted in the pre-pod section that they committed to temple like two days ago... Obviously they are having trouble filling their classes if the are still accepting students within a week of classes starting..." -MaxillofacialMN
I was just responding to your argument, here is your argument broken down:
Somebody posted that they just got accepted this week thus Temple NEEDS to accept DAT in order to fill their seats.
I said filling seats last minute is a common occurrence throughout any type of program that require an application to get in, thus your correlation is wrong.
Now you are the one asking me for data to prove my point? Why don't you call up Temple and ask for the data of how many were accepted into the class of 2017 on just DAT scores before you start spewing ignorant uninformed statements such as "Temple needs to accept DAT in order to fill their seats"
I was just responding to your argument, here is your argument broken down:
Somebody posted that they just got accepted this week thus Temple NEEDS to accept DAT in order to fill their seats.
I said filling seats last minute is a common occurrence throughout any type of program that require an application to get in, thus your correlation is wrong.
Now you are the one asking me for data to prove my point? Why don't you call up Temple and ask for the data of how many were accepted into the class of 2017 on just DAT scores before you start spewing ignorant uninformed statements such as "Temple needs to accept DAT in order to fill their seats"
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Thank you for quoting me! It will make this much easier. I have added the bolded numbers to the quoted section so that you may follow your erroneous logic.
1. Temple accepts students with DAT scores. Temple accepted at least (someone said 2, but that's completely irrelevant) one person within a week of class. Based on 2012 information released by the Podiatric Medical College Information Book, Temple had DAT range between 17-20 with an average of 18.6. Because the average of 17 and 20 is 18.5 (not 18.6), we can assume that Temple had to matriculate some number more than two students. I find the number irrelevant, and we could speculate the number, but it is not important to my argument. The point: Temple matriculated more than two students with a DAT.
What is my point? My point is that of the 100 seats Temple fills, at least 3 of their students used a DAT for acceptance. If Temple did not accept the DAT they would lose at least 3 from their class.
2. If Temple is already scrambling to fill their class (regardless if it is a common occurrence or not), would they really want to find at least another 3 people within a week? You're basically saying that just because every other school has to scramble for students during the last week, that the magnitude of the problem is irrelevant. I disagree. If Temple already has to scramble for 2 people within a week of classes starting, finding more than double or triple that number might be a challenge for them, don't you think? You suggesting my "correlation is wrong" is inaccurate because you are discounting magnitude of problem. Essentially your thought process is, "It is common for wars to have death, so the difference between killing 2000 people and 6000 people is irrelevant, because all wars have death - this is common no matter what type of war it is." I argue that distinction is extremely relevant, and I think most people would agree with me.
3. I don't know why you are hostile about this? Also: I didn't say Temple NEEDS to accept DAT students to fill their seats, re-read my posts. However, if they don't fill their seats with DAT students, they will be forced to accept a lower applicant to replace the unfilled seat of DAT students.
This is all very rational and logic-based. I don't understand why you are getting excited about the information I have given. If Temple doesn't accept DAT students, they will need to substitute those seats with MCAT students. Obviously, those substituted seats will go to lower-qualified students (or they leave them unfilled). For that reason, I believe Temple will continue to accept the DAT for the foreseeable future.
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1+2. Temple wouldn't need to scramble 3 more seats unless they decided to stop accepting the DAT a week before classes started. They would have to fill those seats with other applicants over the course of the application cycle, yes maybe with slightly lower stats but not with "unqualified students".
The way you phrase everything you are implying that Temple has a problem with getting qualified applicants to fill their seats that is why they still accept the DAT. This is not a Temple specific problem. Temple has higher standards then half of the other colleges by not accepting those with stats lower than a 2.75 GPA and 19 MCAT which of course is the same as NYCPM. Technically no school accepts "unqualified applicants" every applicant qualified for acceptance. Whether or not a 2.75 GPA and a 19 MCAT or lower makes you "unqualified" is another debate.
"The larger schools will either fill their classes with even more unqualified applicants, in Temple's case: continue to accept the DAT, or go unfilled..."
Temple already accepted less students this year compared to last, 100 this year compared to 105 from last year. Unless of course they scramble 5 more seats but I heard this entering class was capped at 100. Also down the rumor mill is most schools will end up capping their class sizes lower due to the residency shortage, this of course would increase the entering class's stats. Not to mention that the applicant pool as been on a study incline over the years, if we actually work together and not belittle each other podiatry schools we could attract more qualified applicants.
3. "If they don't, they'll NEED to accept "unqualified" applicants to fill their seats." You are implying that Temple NEEDs to either accept DAT or accept "unqualified applicants," obviously no one wants to accept unqualified applicants so Temple would have to continue to accept the DAT. Once again those that scrambled into seats had good credentials and Temple does not have a problem with finding qualified students to fill their seats. The standards aren't going to be lowered because Temple has this huge problem of finding qualified applicants.
I do agree Temple will continue to accept DAT students. If the student has a high GPA and shows that they are committed to podiatry why not accept them if they have a good DAT score? Temple doesn't need to accept them, they choose to.
So then you do agree that those who get into podiatry school with just the DAT aren't necessarily unqualified? Therefore Temple now has a larger applicant pool than any other podiatry school and any qualified applicants that were going to go to NYCPM with their DAT score will just go to Temple instead. I wouldn't be surprised if Temple accepts more DAT scores next year than this year.
I really don't think getting rid of the DAT will hurt anything. If an applicant took the DAT, didn't get into Dental school and decided to do Pod, then they would just take the MCAT.
I think it would be better that way simply because that student will have to decide if he/she really want to go into Pod. They will have to fork over $200 for the MCAT and take time to study for the physics section. This is actually good for the student since they won't be rushed into Pod and then find out they hate it later on.
Food for thought, if Pod schools can take the DAT, why doesn't Pod schools take the OAT?
PS. Someone in the NYCPM 2012 class had a 32 MCAT?? niceeee
I think it would be better that way simply because that student will have to decide if he/she really want to go into Pod. They will have to fork over $200 for the MCAT and take time to study for the physics section. This is actually good for the student since they won't be rushed into Pod and then find out they hate it later on.
Food for thought, if Pod schools can take the DAT, why doesn't Pod schools take the OAT?
PS. Someone in the NYCPM 2012 class had a 32 MCAT?? niceeee
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👍
My thought is that Med schools only accept MCAT, dental schools only accept DAT, optometry accepts OAT, and pharm school accept PCAT so we shouldn't lower our standards. Taking the DAT is like saying that you are willing to accept someone that obviously had podiatry as a back-up. The schools that allow it are obviously free to do so, but IMO it tells me (as an outsider looking in) that these schools are just trying to fill seats to pay bills. Just my 2¢
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I am ashamed, though not surprised, that there are Temple students defending the DAT. How anyone can defend that administration is beyond me. Maybe you have to live through 3rd and 4th year before you start questioning some of their decisions...
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Wrong.
We know already that many people do not know what Podiatry is. Some people think they want to follow a certain career and then change their minds. For example, you think you want to be a dentist, are introduced to podiatry, and find out that some schools accept the DAT. Why would you then take the MCAT? Just to prove that you really want to go into podiatry? Clearly the admissions staff doesn't need this "proof."
Also, are you saying that everyone who took the MCAT had podiatry as their number one choice? WIth most people I communicate with, they chose podiatry because of a low MCAT score.
Low MCAT scores say the same thing (to me).
About 10.
Perhaps you can PM me about your gripes with Temple. No school is perfect. There are pros and cons of all schools. I can clarify certain things if you are curious.
Many if not everyone I know who took the DAT are in the top of their class at Temple. You could make the argument that everyone at Temple is stupid, or you could look at it like this:
Once you are in, wipe the slate clean. You could have the worst incoming stats and be at the top of your class. Podiatry school IS NOTHING LIKE college (or a graduate school program). It's all about how hard you try once you are here.
Perhaps this is why there are different sections on this forum for pre-pods, pod students, and residents / pods.
This discussion has been highly debated and I am personally still on the fence about it. I'd like to continue constructively.
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The goal is to ultimately get people who want to go to podiatry school to attend podiatry school. Clearly, the people who took the DAT did not have podiatry school as their first/only choice.
Your may presently have an argument that some number (most/majority/minority/287/whatever) of matriculants have podiatry as a second choice or backup. At the present time, that is true. The profession is attempting to make all podiatry students attend podiatry school as their first choice. This can only be accomplished by accepting one standardized test. People take the DAT to get into dental school. I would find it extremely dubious of anyone who takes the DAT with the goal of going into podiatric medicine.
A further argument could be made that podiatry should just create their own test. This would be extremely costly, and realistically, at the end of the day, podiatry will still be the back up plan for some - just as DO is. At least this way we can be consistent.
Your may presently have an argument that some number (most/majority/minority/287/whatever) of matriculants have podiatry as a second choice or backup. At the present time, that is true. The profession is attempting to make all podiatry students attend podiatry school as their first choice. This can only be accomplished by accepting one standardized test. People take the DAT to get into dental school. I would find it extremely dubious of anyone who takes the DAT with the goal of going into podiatric medicine.
A further argument could be made that podiatry should just create their own test. This would be extremely costly, and realistically, at the end of the day, podiatry will still be the back up plan for some - just as DO is. At least this way we can be consistent.
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Totally understand that goal. However, people who took the DAT and got in may not have had podiatry as their first choice, but podiatry could have easily become their only desired choice. This is what happened in my case, at least.
For podiatry school to become people's first choice, eliminating the DAT is not the first course of action (in my opinion). I believe this actually results in less qualified people getting into podiatry school. All of the DAT scores I have heard in school are much higher than the "correlated" MCAT score. By this I mean: a 22 DAT score is "better" than a 19 MCAT score.
Making podiatry a first choice requires knowledge of the field. If everyone knew what podiatry was, just like "everyone" knows what a pediatrician is, this goal could be achieved. Also, making the MCAT and GPA requirements similar to medical schools could lead to this goal. Only then would I agree to eliminating the DAT (and GRE).
Like I stated before, a low MCAT score screams BACKUP the same if not more than a high DAT score.
I believe many of the people who took the DAT, upon being introduced to podiatry, chose to pursue podiatry and "saved" a year by applying to the schools that accepted the DAT. By "introduced to podiatry" I mean shadowed, volunteered, etc. (not just applying as a backup, but actually liking the field).
As far as a podiatric test, like you stated, it is basically impossible (with the low numbers we have). We don't even have a proper book to study for the boards, let alone an entrance exam for the schools (LOL).
But, in the end, I believe that getting people who actually want to go to podiatry school to attend podiatry school (and eliminating "others") should be a goal of schools and admissions. Personally, I believe that the only goal for future and current students should be to ace podiatry school. This is the only thing that matters.... once you are in.
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Pre-acceptance is you needing to explain to the admissions board why You want
the DPM and not the MD
Post-acceptance is professors explaining to you that the DPM is just as good / equivalent to the MD.
At least Temple is open about their hypocrisy
the DPM and not the MD
Post-acceptance is professors explaining to you that the DPM is just as good / equivalent to the MD.
At least Temple is open about their hypocrisy
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Exactly. Unfortunately, this is just how it is. This may change in the future as podiatry grows. Knowledge is power.
It actually made me more comfortable at Temple knowing that the professors were realists. They acknowledged the problems with the field, and are fighting for the field (not saying that other schools aren't, but I only have exposure to Temple).
What is there to clarify? I lived it.
Students kept in the program who should have been kicked out. First time pass rates in the 70's% every year. Graduates unable to get residency positions, even when there wasn't a shortage. Mattiacci always has an excuse though. It's the NBPME's fault, it's the APMA's fault, it's the CPME's fault...but it's never Temple's fault, that's for sure.
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Those sure are the cons. The school continually keeps students in that should not be there. These students are the ones that fail to get residencies. But, I would argue, these are not all DAT takers (not sure if thats the argument here, but thats what the thread is about).
You said you weren't surprised that people were defending the DAT. I believe that the cons of Temple do not warrant an elimination of the DAT in the acceptance process (for reasons posted above).
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They do to me as well, and this is why I also think the problem lies with accepting lower MCAT's just to fill seats (as done by accepting DAT scores). Again, from an outsider looking in, both look equally bad to me and I would never attend a program that seems to do this just to get by
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Uhm.... it doesn't matter how qualified the DAT takers are. Why doesn't Temple take the SAT? The DAT and MCAT test different material. It's about being consistent with the rest of the schools.
And saying there is a "correlated" DAT to MCAT score is garbage. There is no correlation. Last I checked, the MCAT doesn't test perceptual ability, or basic math skills.
I think it's funny you are trying to defend an obviously failing system. Trash.
Originally Posted by jonod1107 View Post
No, all schools stop taking GRE about 4 years ago.
The GRE was phased out as part of Vision 2015. Even before that, only NYCPM and Temple (and maybe OH) accepted it. And Temple was the last hold out to stop accepting it around 2009-2010... no surprise there.
No, all schools stop taking GRE about 4 years ago.
The GRE was phased out as part of Vision 2015. Even before that, only NYCPM and Temple (and maybe OH) accepted it. And Temple was the last hold out to stop accepting it around 2009-2010... no surprise there.
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One of my classmates only took the GRE. Class of 2016.
What school?
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Temple
Temple took the GRE in 2012?? Are you serious? Wow, and I thought the worst thing about Temple was the clip art information sheet they sent out...
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Haha, don't forgot the comic sans website, and interview day video shot by a middle schooler!
Temple might be an excellent place to get an education, but you honestly have to admit their admission's marketing/PR is terrible.
I feel like Temple has lost it's touch compared to the 90's. One of the pod I shadowed went to Temple and she was awesome. A lot of the older Pods I spoke with have great things to say about Temple, I think mainly due to the fact that Temple Pod was the one of the first school to be affiliated with a major university (Temple).
They did revamp their website!
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Well I'll be! That must have happened within the last week or so!
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I agree with you. Unless someone can show a direct correlation that the students who entered the school with the DATs are doing worse in school and failing boards at a higher rate, then eliminating the DATs seems pretty pointless.
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I don't think anyone is arguing that the DAT students do worse...
It's the facts that those students obviously chose podiatry as a second choice, and because there is no standardized admission test for the profession.
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I understand what you are saying, but at the end of the day it's about perception of the profession and taking pride in what we are about. We need people who want to be a DPM. If they aren't willing to even take the MCAT to become one, do we really want/need them?
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DAT aside, I don't think the profession is in a position now or even in 10 years to be completely over-saturated with willing students, so much that schools can nonchalantly disqualify half the candidates because their 'heart wasn't in it' (regardless of the great quality of the profession of course 🙂).
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Like I said, I get the idea of why it is how it is. My issue is that I believe in quality tending to drive quantity. Podiatry seems to have a history of wanting quantity at all costs. I think this is why we see all the trolls on SDN, lack of respect in the medical world, and lack of quality applicants shying away. Again, just my $.02
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My argument is that low MCAT scores also indicate podiatry as a back-up. A podiatric entrance test would be ideal, but not feasible in the near future.
Right now, I believe the field needs to accept "high" DAT scores to improve the quality of students. ---> but there is no guarantee that these students will do well.
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Your an indiot
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If it were up to me, there would be no required admission test, and being invited for an interview would depend on
-the essay
-course loads and employment/extracurriculars throughout the years
-courses taken
-GPA of last 24 credits
😉
Pod schools will have more applicants to select from (as long as these people actually show up to the interview) without the shame of their numbers in matriculation reports.
Admission tests cost time, effort, and money on the part of test takers.
Applicants with more money end up "looking better" than those with less.
-the essay
-course loads and employment/extracurriculars throughout the years
-courses taken
-GPA of last 24 credits
😉
Pod schools will have more applicants to select from (as long as these people actually show up to the interview) without the shame of their numbers in matriculation reports.
Admission tests cost time, effort, and money on the part of test takers.
Applicants with more money end up "looking better" than those with less.
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How would the schools determine the academic potential of the applicants? The last twenty four credits??
A fundamental reason the MCAT is administered is because it is standardized. College courses.... Not so much
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And anyone who thinks personal statements or essays should actually be part of the admissions process has never had to sit down and read 'em.
I
itsallgood19
Can someone please link the new pdf of the updated pod school breakdown (the pdf that has the information containing that nycpm no longer takes DAT for 2014). Where can i find that?
