Email to students -“ Survey from NYCPM on Recruitment Crisis in Podiatry Medicine”

[DogSnoot]

Students got an email stating the following:

“Hey guys for those of you that don't know me I'm the incoming president for NYCPM. Our NYSPMA student rep and I put together this survey to try to identify why our chosen profession is experiencing a recruitment crisis. We would both really appreciate if you could fill it out and then share with your respective student bodies! Thank you so much for taking the time.”

My personal question is how “bad” is recruitment percentage wise? Additionally, I’ve included a screenshot of a few question asked in the survey. I felt the survey focused on marketing/business/recruitment agenda. Zero of the questions raised any concern regarding how to further improve the profession. I think it speaks for itself.

Edit: found link shared in the “residency/provider” portion of the forum, the link helped answer my initial question of “how bad”.

https://aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Historical-TRENDS-of-apps-2013-2022-10-2022-for-health-professions-update.pdf

Edit:
Students are entering a VERY saturated market with extremely poor job outlooks, unbiased data/statistics below:

According to the Bureau of Labor's job outlook, we can sustain only 200-300 employee openings per year without saturating the market. Obviously this is an estimate - a far cry from the 1000 student graduates the school pumps out, year after year. Regression analysis from a trend line predicts a total of 200-300 job openings in the next 10 years, which would sustain the $145,840 per year income.

"Employment of podiatrists is projected to grow 2 percent from 2021 to 2031, slower than the average for all occupations.
Despite limited employment growth, about 300 openings for podiatrists are projected each year, on average, over the decade. Most of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire."

Podiatrists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Podiatrists provide medical and surgical care for people with foot, ankle, and lower leg problems.

www.bls.gov

Podiatrists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Podiatrists provide medical and surgical care for people with foot, ankle, and lower leg problems.

www.bls.gov

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[LebronJrsFutureDoc]

Enrollment is remarkably low (yet two new schools opened up this year). Now the colleges are panicked they’ll be unprofitable. Sad times for the profession but I’ve got no sympathy for the people in charge.

 

[Shadowfax12]

Enrollment is remarkably low (yet two new schools opened up this year). Now the colleges are panicked they’ll be unprofitable. Sad times for the profession but I’ve got no sympathy for the people in charge.

How low is it?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

How low is it?

I think around 350 for all the programs. We will get the actual numbers closer to the June deadline.

@DogSnoot I edited your post for anonymity reasons.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Enrollment is remarkably low (yet two new schools opened up this year). Now the colleges are panicked they’ll be unprofitable. Sad times for the profession but I’ve got no sympathy for the people in charge.

Haha, which school will be first to fold?

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Students got an email stating the following:

“Hey guys for those of you that don't know me I'm the incoming president for NYCPM. Our NYSPMA student rep and I put together this survey to try to identify why our chosen profession is experiencing a recruitment crisis. We would both really appreciate if you could fill it out and then share with your respective student bodies! Thank you so much for taking the time.”

My personal question is how “bad” is recruitment percentage wise? Additionally, I’ve included a screenshot of a few question asked in the survey. I felt the survey focused on marketing/business/recruitment agenda. Zero of the questions raised any concern regarding how to further improve the profession. I think it speaks for itself.

This is a survey that NYCPM students have already partly implemented to provide useful information to student recruitment efforts by schools and the APMA. The APMA used their earlier results in adapting their efforts.

I applaud them for taking the initiative and working to improve awareness of the profession.

 

[DogSnoot]

I think around 350 for all the programs. We will get the actual numbers closer to the June deadline.

@DogSnoot I edited your post for anonymity reasons.

Thank you for doing that and my apologies about the anonymity portion. I appreciate the edit.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Enrollment is remarkably low (yet two new schools opened up this year). Now the colleges are panicked they’ll be unprofitable. Sad times for the profession but I’ve got no sympathy for the people in charge.

Maybe we need to open another school to help with the enrollment problem!

Haha, which school will be first to fold?

CSPM is already flirting with probation because of boards pass rates.. that combined with them only filling half of the class of 2026... the writing is on the wall.

 

[deleted1138023]

the job market is awful that is why no one wants to apply. 7 years of education (11 if you count undergrad), $300k in debt, to be paid worse than a travel RN. no thanks

 

[deleted1138023]

Haha, which school will be first to fold?

hopefully NY or Barry.

 

[deleted1093615]

I think around 350 for all the programs. We will get the actual numbers closer to the June deadline.

@DogSnoot I edited your post for anonymity reasons.

How did you find this number?

 

[toetransplant]

NYCPM hands down will fold in 5 years if this trend continues.

 

[Adam Smasher]

CSPM is already flirting with probation because of boards pass rates.. that combined with them only filling half of the class of 2026... the writing is on the wall.

hopefully NY or Barry.

NYCPM hands down will fold in 5 years if this trend continues.

Given the humiliating way students are abused by the podiatry colleges, I have the deepest shadenfreude to see them struggling to fill their classes. It might be fun to start a betting pool. And I mean deep mirthful belly laugh fun. But ultimately none of the schools are going to go away soon.

I predicted here that in the coming years we will see smaller classes and a rise in tuition, with still more podiatry colleges opening.

 

[deleted1138023]

Given the humiliating way students are abused by the podiatry colleges, I have the deepest shadenfreude to see them struggling to fill their classes. It might be fun to start a betting pool. And I mean deep mirthful belly laugh fun. But ultimately none of the schools are going to go away soon.

I predicted here that in the coming years we will see smaller classes and a rise in tuition, with still more podiatry colleges opening.

Raising tuition by them will be a bold move. I wish them luck if they go that route. these kids are too smart these days.

 

[toetransplant]

Given the humiliating way students are abused by the podiatry colleges, I have the deepest shadenfreude to see them struggling to fill their classes. It might be fun to start a betting pool. And I mean deep mirthful belly laugh fun. But ultimately none of the schools are going to go away soon.

I predicted here that in the coming years we will see smaller classes and a rise in tuition, with still more podiatry colleges opening.

It’s sad hoping our profession fails, but just shows how leadership has really fell off. Podiatry leaders will blame SDN even though like 96% of prepods never look on this forum.

 

[Adam Smasher]

It’s sad hoping our profession fails

I don't hope our profession fails. I hope it evolves. The present recruitment crisis is the perfect impetus for that evolution.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Maybe we need to open another school to help with the enrollment problem!

CSPM is already flirting with probation because of boards pass rates.. that combined with them only filling half of the class of 2026... the writing is on the wall.

mid 60s pass rate 3 years average… somehow still accredited. Imagine how many people stuck with $200k in debt and no degree. Good work cpme for doing your job.

 

[DogSnoot]

It’s sad hoping our profession fails, but just shows how leadership has really fell off. Podiatry leaders will blame SDN even though like 96% of prepods never look on this forum.

I agree, I genuinely hope things turn around. Ideally, education improves and salary/job opportunities increase. Prepods look at Reddit first. However, the “podiatry sub-Reddit” is heavily monitored with plenty of deleted comments and blocked users.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

How did you find this number?

The final numbers will be posted here later in the year: https://aacpm.org/wp-content/upload...022-10-2022-for-health-professions-update.pdf

Number I posted above is as of now (based on my involvement with the APMSA) but can increase by the deadline. The trend, given the stats from last year, continued to be lower.

 

[toetransplant]

I think the issue is more people looking into BSN because you can make 120k as an RN… why make 150k with 5x the debt and 7 more years? I know two prepods who went to to BSN because economics and people value their youth. With 401k, health insurance, dental, orthodontics. My seniors are getting job offers making 90-120k.

Quick maffs
If RN making 140k with all the bennies added up. Their salary is guaranteed to increase with inflation, ours is set to decrease due to decreased reimbursement.

 

[deleted1138023]

I think the issue is more people looking into BSN because you can make 120k as an RN… why make 150k with 5x the debt and 7 more years? I know two prepods who went to to BSN because economics and people value their youth. With 401k, health insurance, dental, orthodontics. My seniors are getting job offers making 90-120k.

Quick maffs
If RN making 140k with all the bennies added up. Their salary is guaranteed to increase with inflation, ours is set to decrease due to decreased reimbursement.

Very true. Being a RN is way smarter than being a podiatrist. Travel RN’s can make $200k+ easy working 3 days a week. With no call. When they are done they are done. Way better gig.

 

[DYK343]

Very true. Being a RN is way smarter than being a podiatrist. Travel RN’s can make $200k+ easy working 3 days a week. With no call. When they are done they are done. Way better gig.

I agree but its not THAT easy. What if you have a family? Most travel gigs are not in the town next door. Most are hours away. Also no benefits and you have to pay high taxes on the 200k+ and cant shelter them in your business.

Im not saying its a bad job. It would be awesome for a new grad with nothing tying them down.

But if youre maried with a 3 year old at home do you really want to be a travel RN even if the money is good? Most chose family I would assume.

I don't hope our profession fails. I hope it evolves. The present recruitment crisis is the perfect impetus for that evolution.

I think this is actually a good step for podiatry. We need so many less grads than we have. There is a mustache pod on every corner in every city. Were like pharmacists and chiropractors. Graduating WAY too many. 50% reduction for a few years will really help the profession and might actually create some demand.

 

[Adam Smasher]

50% reduction for a few years will really help the profession and might actually create some demand.

There would be a 7 year lag between when applications declined and when it actually impacts the job market, and as soon as market conditions improve, the schools are back to luring students with our "best kept secret in medicine" line

 

[DYK343]

There would be a 7 year lag between when applications declined and when it actually impacts the job market, and as soon as market conditions improve, the schools are back to luring students with our "best kept secret in medicine" line

Yes its not a fix for tomorrow.

 

[unusualonion]

I'm gonna keep it a buck with yall. My class was already small to begin in relation to the the allowable class size and we've had quite a few first semester drops and winter break drops. It's painful for those are the top because someones gotta keep the lights on but I'm glad that there are less students given the various threads around SDN regarding our profession. I've talked with 4th years who are already dreading PP and are already chatting about their exit strategy if they don't get a "good" job after. Not great as a 1st year to hear tbh. Just my two pennies though.

 

[DogSnoot]

There would be a 7 year lag between when applications declined and when it actually impacts the job market, and as soon as market conditions improve, the schools are back to luring students with our "best kept secret in medicine" line

According to the Bureau of Labor's job outlook, we can sustain only 300 employee openings per year without saturating the market. Obviously this is an estimate - a far cry from the 1000 student graduates the school pumps out, year after year.

"Employment of podiatrists is projected to grow 2 percent from 2021 to 2031, slower than the average for all occupations.
Despite limited employment growth, about 300 openings for podiatrists are projected each year, on average, over the decade. Most of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire."

Podiatrists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Podiatrists provide medical and surgical care for people with foot, ankle, and lower leg problems.

www.bls.gov

 

[Adam Smasher]

According to the Bureau of Labor's job outlook, we can sustain only 300 employee openings per year without saturating the market. Obviously this is an estimate - a far cry from the 1000 student graduates the school pumps out, year after year.

There's another dynamic at play, and I do not know how this will play out:

The 300 who retire every year will mostly be old school c&c docs. I'm not sure how enthusiastic the new graduates are going to be to take on these positions.

 

[deleted1138023]

poor abfas might have to make the pass rate of the exams 20% instead of 50% to make up for all the lost revenue. Where’s their yearly meeting at again? Panama? @air bud

 

[heybrother]

There's another dynamic at play, and I do not know how this will play out:

The 300 who retire every year will mostly be old school c&c docs. I'm not sure how enthusiastic the new graduates are going to be to take on these positions.

I'm of a different mind on this. The vascular surgeons in Des Moines used to joke that vascular surgery is a wonderful hobby, but vein surgery pays the bills. The old school guys who can't do anything still do nail surgeries and plantar fascial injections. If you are going to try and do the good cases, do the right thing for people, you still need the slam dunks. It also makes it a lot easier to tell the Humanas, Uniteds, Scott & White's etc that they can take their discriminatory fee schedule and shove it when there's no one else in town.

 

[air bud]

I'm gonna keep it a buck with yall. My class was already small to begin in relation to the the allowable class size and we've had quite a few first semester drops and winter break drops. It's painful for those are the top because someones gotta keep the lights on but I'm glad that there are less students given the various threads around SDN regarding our profession. I've talked with 4th years who are already dreading PP and are already chatting about their exit strategy if they don't get a "good" job after. Not great as a 1st year to hear tbh. Just my two pennies though.

Please more real world content from someone in school. We don't need more bills*** threads - I am 4th year at Kent State AMA....

 

[air bud]

There's another dynamic at play, and I do not know how this will play out:

The 300 who retire every year will mostly be old school c&c docs. I'm not sure how enthusiastic the new graduates are going to be to take on these positions.

When it's your only opportunity....

 

[air bud]

poor abfas might have to make the pass rate of the exams 20% instead of 50% to make up for all the lost revenue. Where’s their yearly meeting at again? Panama? @air bud

Yeah that was a few years ago let's say 2016? But my residency director told me many stories of the great SF restaurants they went to.

 

[heybrother]

I'm gonna keep it a buck with yall. My class was already small to begin in relation to the the allowable class size and we've had quite a few first semester drops and winter break drops. It's painful for those are the top because someones gotta keep the lights on but I'm glad that there are less students given the various threads around SDN regarding our profession. I've talked with 4th years who are already dreading PP and are already chatting about their exit strategy if they don't get a "good" job after. Not great as a 1st year to hear tbh. Just my two pennies though.

That's a bummer to hear about. I think I made it through school and about 2/3rds of residency before realizing how hard it would be. Sub-100 offers. "Travel across the country to find out what we pay". "Its a wonderful town and you're going to have so much money with 17% collections". "Podiatry practices routinely sell for 90-100% of collections so - we're thinking $800K".

What always amuses me is the thought that students reading this forum would think "these guys are surgeons, there's no world where they would do these cases for so little money or accept so little". Unfortunately, yes, we would. I still remember treating this lady with anterior tibial tendonitis and thickening at her tendon insertion. I opened her chart and thought - wtf am I being paid so little for these visits and what is Humana Medicare Advantage. I explored some codes and realized that if I did a tendon repair on her it would be worth $200 and 90 days of free visits. Thank god for PT.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

That's a bummer to hear about. I think I made it through school and about 2/3rds of residency before realizing how hard it would be. Sub-100 offers. "Travel across the country to find out what we pay". "Its a wonderful town and you're going to have so much money with 17% collections". "Podiatry practices routinely sell for 90-100% of collections so - we're thinking $800K".

What always amuses me is the thought that students reading this forum would think "these guys are surgeons, there's no world where they would do these cases for so little money or accept so little". Unfortunately, yes, we would. I still remember treating this lady with anterior tibial tendonitis and thickening at her tendon insertion. I opened her chart and thought - wtf am I being paid so little for these visits and what is Humana Medicare Advantage. I explored some codes and realized that if I did a tendon repair on her it would be worth $200 and 90 days of free visits. Thank god for PT.

insurance in the usa is a freaking mess

 

[Adam Smasher]

insurance in the usa is a freaking mess

You wanna know how it goes in health systems outside of the English speaking world? They largely don't have podiatrists

 

[unusualonion]

Please more real world content from someone in school. We don't need more bills*** threads - I am 4th year at Kent State AMA....

The raw rub, for me personally, is that I'm gathering my materials to crack at MD/DO. I would genuinely rather start over in pre-clinical sciences in my late 20s/early 30s if I could. Read my other posts for the scoop on that if you're interested. It's nothing against podiatry, and most of it is on me for enrolling and not even cracking at the other applications. Alas, that is off topic for this thread.

Imho, when I got the NYCPM email in my school email inbox i said to myself, "duh, you're emailing people with low scores, and somewhat misrepresenting the practice of podiatry." Emails about foot and ankle surgery and clinical leadership, being highly respected surgeons other look to, yada yada yada. MCAT and GPA are statistically the best predictors (but not fully accurate) of success with respect to school. Sure people get into DO with sub-500 but I'm sure there's data about their grades, board scores, and residency match rates/placements. Having an entire class of people with sub-500 scores who "want to be a doctor" (i definitely fall into this category) is a recipe for poor outcomes. Im not BSing either. The class ahead of me had an MCAT AVERAGE of 493. (I'm by no means bragging about my 496 either and i know a retest is certainly in my future). I don't purport to know all the answers for recruitment. Maybe its less schools, mandated higher entrance scores and GPA, or some other thing but its not great to hear from older pods that leadership simply doesn't care and the schools really only function as degree mills, again just my two cents.

That's a bummer to hear about.

Yeah I agree, considering I hadn't really fully thought about applying out until I heard that. I knew, from SDN, that compensation is tough but I grew up one of five kids in a single income house so even 125k base sounded like Rockefeller money. But i was making decent money in research during post-bacc years without the stress of 4 years of education and 3 years of residency and 200k+ of debt. Again, off topic, sorry.

 

[deleted1138023]

I feel like the MCAT/Avg GPA is dropping across all podiatry schools. a 493 average mcat is insanely low. 25% of the mcat is basic reading and comprehension right? another 25% is psychology? You could likely give the exam to a lawyer then who has no medical knowledge at all and I bet they score above a 493. Our standards are insanely low for people we accept.

 

[unusualonion]

I feel like the MCAT/Avg GPA is dropping across all podiatry schools. a 493 average mcat is insanely low. 25% of the mcat is basic reading and comprehension right? another 25% is psychology? You could likely give the exam to a lawyer then who has no medical knowledge at all and I bet they score above a 493. Our standards are insanely low for people we accept.

For reference, the scaled scores of a composite of 493 equates to the 24th percentile, so yeah pretty much anyone who puts their name down correctly and has a modicum of intelligence could get above a 493. I got in on a 496, which now that I'm practicing with a stricter schedule and better resources, is way too low. We're attracting the people, myself at the time included, who didn't do well on the test and wanted to be a "doctor" so bad that we can't look past the chance to have letters before our name. And since theres essentially (for now) a 1:1 residency match rate, the schools have no incentive to increase the quality of the student, packaged with most students using federal loans and they don't care whose butt is in what chair.

I think the lowest MD/DO published required score is a 495 at DeBusk but their avg is like a 504 or something, still almost 10 points higher. There needs to be a long hard conversation about this profession, how/who it recruits, and its future. Vision 2021 was a step in the right direction but we've got miles to go if we actually want competitive students to enroll at these schools. Also close the two newest schools and like 2 or 3 of the others, knock out the poor/underperforming residencies, and start getting comfortable being the generation of PP pod owners that changes the outlook for the young pods.

 

[call1800doctorb]

I think around 350 for all the programs. We will get the actual numbers closer to the June deadline.

@DogSnoot I edited your post for anonymity reasons.

This is great. Unless some serious changes are made this failed profession does not deserve applicants.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Does anyone have any ideas why the number of applications suddenly dipped so drastically in the past few years?

 

[unusualonion]

My guess would be poor marketing. I vaguely remember something several years ago in undergrad where my pre-health advisor mentioned podiatry in a mass email but then that was the last I'd heard about it until my post bacc advisor pushed me towards it after i'd (poorly) taken the MCAT. Then I was berated with tons of masters, post baccs, and podiatry marketing emails.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Does anyone have any ideas why the number of applications suddenly dipped so drastically in the past few years?

Have you been to the other forums on here? 7 years of tuition plus interest racking up to be offered 100k? Even a non health finance person would say it’s a bad ROI

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

Does anyone have any ideas why the number of applications suddenly dipped so drastically in the past few years?

I think the podiatry heads (APMA/AACPM/XYZ) have established that it is entirely the fault of SDN posters. We're sorry. Any other reason would be inconceivable. The education is cheap and second to none, the training is amazing across the board, and jobs are aplenty.

 

[call1800doctorb]

I think the podiatry heads (APMA/AACPM/XYZ) have established that it is entirely the fault of SDN posters. We're sorry. Any other reason would be inconceivable. The education is cheap and second to none, the training is amazing across the board, and jobs are aplenty.

The leadership is too stupid and arrogant to take their rightful blame for running an entire profession into the ground. If applications go down to 0 it’s what they deserve.

 

[deleted1138023]

Does anyone have any ideas why the number of applications suddenly dipped so drastically in the past few years?

because podiatry sucks

 

[Bored Snorlax]

My guess would be poor marketing. I vaguely remember something several years ago in undergrad where my pre-health advisor mentioned podiatry in a mass email but then that was the last I'd heard about it until my post bacc advisor pushed me towards it after i'd (poorly) taken the MCAT. Then I was berated with tons of masters, post baccs, and podiatry marketing emails.

Have you been to the other forums on here? 7 years of tuition plus interest racking up to be offered 100k? Even a non health finance person would say it’s a bad ROI

I agree to a certain extent, but it wouldn't explain the sudden dip during the past 2 application cycles.

Whatever the reason, I truly hope they don't sacrifice quality to fulfill the numbers since that would lead to a more horrific outcome when people can't finish the program or pass board exams.

 

[Shiyuan]

View attachment 367522







I agree to a certain extent, but it wouldn't explain the sudden dip during the past 2 application cycles.

Whatever the reason, I truly hope they don't sacrifice quality to fulfill the numbers since that would lead to a more horrific outcome when people can't finish the program or pass board exams.

Even if people are admitted for subpar stats, they will fail out anyway. It’s a win-win for the school since they fill the seat and make good money.

 

[unusualonion]

Even if people are admitted for subpar stats, they will fail out anyway.

Not if the curve is big enough to prevent even one person from failing...

 

[Feli]

Even if people are admitted for subpar stats, they will fail out anyway. It’s a win-win for the school since they fill the seat and make good money.

Annnnnnd enter stage left the 5 year program, the 6 year program, the 7 year program.