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Yeah I'm not sure what you mean by the cruise thing either. My wife bought her parents a house at 25, does that count?
NYT article: How Pharmacy Work Stopped Being So Great
Started by jon do
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Lol so in other words, in the ancient times, you prioritized work over family?
Every pharmacist I’ve worked with since ~2010 has taken their full maternity and/or paternity leave (managers, staff, etc…). Glad this has been normalized at all three health systems i have worked at, and more apparently.
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Lol, I went on a $500 cruise (well, it was $250, but this was 2005) and man…that was like the trashiest group of people ever.
I mean, it was fun, don’t get me wrong. But I definitely remember some guy on my excursion bus mooning the driver of the excursion bus next to us.
He was definitely Fred Durst’s doppelgänger
I don’t think it’s vitriol against you, but it’s definitely high time to look down on people (in 2022) who prioritize work over family time, regardless of what may or may not transpire over 30 years after that.
Also, live-in family care is definitely a luxury, not a very common thing today in the United States. I have the same set up, and consider myself lucky.
Don't get your point! NO it's definitely not $500, much more! And my point was not the affordability, but the fact that they would CHOOSE to spend their vacation time with their absent, negligent father! The one who "chose" to not take paternity and bind with them as babies!
maybe an inside cabin, under the water line! More like $2700-$2900 PP balcony room!
I am from a whole different generation, when prospective fathers would wait in the waiting room, chain smoking, while their baby was being born (JOKE)
I am lucky to have family support
I cruise a whole bunch. The biggest mistake first time cruisers make is saying "I will try a 3-5 day cruise, what if I don't like it" WELL, you are guaranteed not to like it because cruise lines use their crappiest- oldest- smallest ships for shorter than 7 day cruises. Just check out RCCL Harmony of the seas class ships with 6000 passengers and 2000 crew - with 4 pools, 2 wave surfers and a central park.
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Why are so many people acting like this is unique to pharmacy? Wages across many professions haven't kept up with inflation.
Depends on the cruise and room of course but I have a group of four going on a 5 night cruise in a suite for $4k total including all fees and gratuity. We usually sail for much less than that but we decided to splurg for the suite.
Wow you must be cruising in style my friend 😂
What annoys me is my family members who I take cruising with me always get the best offers. Meanwhile the person who paid for the darn thing gets the midrange offers. So unfair.
Edit: I just realized you are probably referring to much longer cruises as well.
dude- you are talking out of both sides of your mouth- you said different strokes for different folks, then called those that are different than you marshmellows
#hypocrite
PS - crusies suck (at least Carribbean ones do) , if you want to visit another country, go and stay there and explore, not just stay at some bleached out tourist place where a "local" comes by and tries to sell you dumb "authentic" trinket
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I'll give you the TLDR: You clearly aren't the feminist you think you are, because while some of the context of the struggles these women faced were specific to gender, the overall issues are not. Yet, somehow you found it acceptable to be annoyed they didn't publish any quotes from men. Though the article was way longer than 4 lines...
Stocks, not good
Interest rates on Mortgages were 10%
Housing prices much lower than now.
Just coming to the end of the 1980 recession.
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Not acting like it’s unique, but other professions aren’t the worst projected professions in existence or the worst ranked in healthcare, so pharmacy has that going for it. There is worse within comparisons (wether it’s how wages kept up with inflation, projections, current wages, debt, opportunity cost) and that’s where pharmacy loses, and is why it holds that title.
My rich boomer Uncle still has stocks from the 80s like Microsoft and Honeywell.
That's a *****ic response. Stocks were way down in the early 80's and Microsoft did not go public until 1986.
You guys need some perspective.
Huh? 1986 is part of the 80s.
My comment was about when i graduated in 1982 Every decade has a stock where if you got in at the beginning, you would be a billionaire.
Could say the same about needing the facts, which are there, and are not altered by “perspective”.
No. You are looking at different time periods. You might be keeping upwith inflation this minute
Facts are facts, but the conclusions you draw from them don't have to make sense. Pharmacy sucks as a profession for many reasons that have nothing to do with inflation.
Okay but clearly boomers had it easier in the 70s and 80s. Houses cost nothing, stocks cost nothing, tuition cost nothing compared to today even after accounting for inflation. Most families had one working spouse. Can't do that today.
NO! Boomers like me did not make out well until the pharmacist shortage of the early 2000's that drove salaries up.
Starting Salary 1982: $12.50/hour
Based on Inflation: $37.50/hour
Current Salary: $72.00/hour
I purchased my house in 1986 for $150,000.00 Now worth $500,000.00 (3x) Salary increased almost 6X
Mortgage Rate 10.9% Present Mortgage: 3.75%
You also have the benefit of the run up in pharmacist salaries. I do understand the cost of your degree is significantly higher and the biggest driver of your generation's financial predicament. It was much harder for me financially back then than it is now......
Starting Salary 1982: $12.50/hour
Based on Inflation: $37.50/hour
Current Salary: $72.00/hour
I purchased my house in 1986 for $150,000.00 Now worth $500,000.00 (3x) Salary increased almost 6X
Mortgage Rate 10.9% Present Mortgage: 3.75%
You also have the benefit of the run up in pharmacist salaries. I do understand the cost of your degree is significantly higher and the biggest driver of your generation's financial predicament. It was much harder for me financially back then than it is now......
I strongly disagree.
Dad and two uncles went to grad school on full scholarships. They said it was easier to get full scholarships back then because less competition, they say they can't do that today. They bought brand new homes for under 100k and had many to choose from. No bidding wars like today. We bought an old house for 750k and had to put 150k+ in repairs/upgrades. They also raised families on one salary, as did everyone else in our childhood neighborhood. No paying for daycare. Daycare can be $2-3,000/mo easily. Today, two working spouses can barely afford a house. It's just a result of higher population. The next generation will have it harder than millennials.
Every boomer on my street is a retired or semiretired multimillionaire and owns at least one vacation home and multiple vehicles. Many have pensions which are nonexistent now. They became even richer after the tech bubble and great recession because they had the funds to invest at rock bottom prices. Millennials were just out of high school or college during those periods and had no job or were burdened with student loans. There are millennial families still living with their parents because they are strapped down with student loans and can't afford a down payment for a home.
Also new grad pharmacists do not get close to $72/hr. Many get $45-50/hr, only 32 guaranteed hours if they're lucky.
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You of course cherry pick anecdotes as well as me. First, I didn;t say new grads are making $72.00. I have 40 years of experience. You think the new grads are better than me?
I am not retired and not a millionaire.
Housing is in a bubble right now. It 's won't stay that way forever.
I understated the real issue is the cost of tuition. The tuition when I went to pharmacy school was about 6K on salary of 26K at 40 hours. Current tuition is 40K on a salary of 100K. It's harder for you guys to carry that nut. I fully understand that. I had deep financial struggles when I started out. The salary increase is what made me rich, just dumb luck.
I agree with most of what you are saying - I am somebody that falls between you and the newbies.
data points fwiw
Graduated in 2004 - salary $43 an hour = $67.44 today. I make $72 base an hour as well. We start at around $53 an hour with zero experience.
First house $182k (zillow lists at $310k value) $285k wold be the value if it kept even with inflation - so not much of a difference.
But- interest was 6.5% on my first home, now I pay 2.5% - so ironically that house was actually cheaper in 04 than it is now (based on interest rates from last year)
Tuition 19k, now same school $44k - this is the kicker - if it kept even with inflation it should be $29k.
Yes, I am a millionaire (net work $1.4 million) - but that isn't that big of a deal - it isn't like I am even close to be able to retire.
So do I think the average worker could live better on less in the 70's and 80's- but I also was a child in the farm crisis of the 80's and saw all of my neighbors farms get auctioned away - so for the average farmer, life is better now than then. I do think pharmacists as a whole in the 80's were not better off - they were just another average worker - but the late 90's and early 00's reset expectations of what a Rph felt they should make -
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Well maybe it was harder for boomer pharmacists but I was just speaking about the general population. You really don't see many stay at home parents anymore.
There are several millennial pharmacists on this board who are already established millionaires, so I'm surprised you are not richer than them to be honest. Not that it's a competition. And of course everyone's situation is different.
Ben Zoma asked:
Who is wise?
He who learns from every man.
Who is strong?
He who subdues his passions.
Who is rich?
He who is satisfied with his portion..
Who is he that is honored?
He who honors his fellow human beings.
The Talmud Pirkei Avot 4:1
I am richer than mere money. I have an amazing life. A wife of over 40 years., 2 children and 2 grandchildren.
Who is wise?
He who learns from every man.
Who is strong?
He who subdues his passions.
Who is rich?
He who is satisfied with his portion..
Who is he that is honored?
He who honors his fellow human beings.
The Talmud Pirkei Avot 4:1
I am richer than mere money. I have an amazing life. A wife of over 40 years., 2 children and 2 grandchildren.
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I think your first sentence sums it up- boomer rphs for the most part had it better but there are exception. Pharmacists prior to the run up in salaries were typical middle class, it wasn't until 20 years ago they moved to the upper middle class, and now that is changing again
In my opinion, any useful demarcation of millionaire would be where one has enough assets to not have to work and have security of food, shelter, energy, education, healthcare, and legal services. I would consider that in the $5M to $10M range.
agree with the definition, but the amount you stated is pretty high for the majority of people, you can live on less than that, but for me and my current lifestyle - the amount would be in the $3-4 million range
what? pre 2007 many rphs only had a 4 year degree- I graduated in 04 and even the old timers at that time had a 5 year BsPharm Degree
you only make 72? I thought you were In the high 70s
I was before I stepped down from being a PIC.
As one of the "old timers", allow me to chime in! This discussion has degraded into the good old days vs the horrible new days. The title of this thread was:
To add perspective, all the jobs back then were not created equal. Coming out of school, with a Pharm.D. and residency in 1987, I was working at the VA, they offered me $29,000 (LOW), Retail offered me $36,000 (Better). But I found a job as manager at a Home Infusion Company that paid $60,000 (Lucky). I have continued to make a good amount of money throughout the 36 years. You don't have to be an investment guru, just slow and steady, low risk 401K index funds (with a financial planner). Now I have about 1 million in 401K, and $1.3 million equity in our home. No special tricks or IPO's. No Microsoft or Google money!
Now if any Pharmacist that has worked for 30-40 years doesn't have $1-2 million in assets, something went wrong!
NYT article: How Pharmacy Work Stopped Being So Great
Well, there is no disputing this fact. It was real nice in the 80's, 90's and 00's for most of us. Now, not so much. Now, if you take away the very unreasonable cost of education, it's not going to be "Great", but a manageable profession. I think most would agree.To add perspective, all the jobs back then were not created equal. Coming out of school, with a Pharm.D. and residency in 1987, I was working at the VA, they offered me $29,000 (LOW), Retail offered me $36,000 (Better). But I found a job as manager at a Home Infusion Company that paid $60,000 (Lucky). I have continued to make a good amount of money throughout the 36 years. You don't have to be an investment guru, just slow and steady, low risk 401K index funds (with a financial planner). Now I have about 1 million in 401K, and $1.3 million equity in our home. No special tricks or IPO's. No Microsoft or Google money!
Now if any Pharmacist that has worked for 30-40 years doesn't have $1-2 million in assets, something went wrong!
It was a five year degree thou. The last school to offer it was STLCOP in 04. Many schools hasn’t offered or since early 90’s or earlier.
That brings up the absurd question. How do you add one year and go from a bachelors to a doctorate. That is just silly
Back 30 years ago the PharmD actually was an advanced degree, not an entry level degree, and I feel likely provided more advanced education than the pharmd of later.
That's why I believe boomers had it good. Anyone who started working in the 80s or 90s should have at least 1mil in 401k by now, and tons of home equity just like you. The stock market has just been too good for the past 3 decades. There are many millennials who started in the 2000s who already have more than that. Unless there were extenuating circumstances like high medical bills, helping family with money, etc.
Yep I worked with a Rph who graduated the first year they offered a PharmD, I think it was either 98 or 99 and she chose not to get one and regretted it. She is a retail lifer who can't escape because she only has a BS.
Before everybody and their dog wanted to do a residency we had a couple of clin spec level positions that required a pharmD, we had some great BSpharms who didn't qualify, which was BS, just kinda like how I don't qualify for some hospitals because they insist on a PGY-2 or 2 even though I have held jobs that precept those people
I worked at the VA as a fourth year intern - 24-28 hrs every weekend. There were some "old" guys at the VA, making good money and set for life with pensions. They were so negative on the profession in 1985! They would say; "get out while you can, go do anything else". I would think to myself - you are telling me now!, I am 4th year, with loans AND no other marketable skills, not even a BS. I would go home depressed every night.
There is no secret to investments. I am FAR from a financial whiz. It's all about slow and steady, starting early and never veering off course.
I worked very hard, sometimes 2 jobs, paid all my bills, put two kids through school (with ZERO loans). I know you guys say "well you missed quality time with your kids! Well, heck no! Just ask them. And would they want dad home every day OR finish school with NO $100,000 debt?
I WAS lucky, made it into the Baby Boomer club by 7 months (DOB). But then there are MANY colleagues that put in the same number of years, with not much to show for it.
Graduated 2013 public school. Tuition rose 50% my 4 years there and was triple from the class that graduated 05.
I work at va and am blessed. However, after seeing so many friends clear 150k with basic jobs they don’t excel at i think that is the gripe of most pharmacists. At the end of the day retail and staff work at a hospital is not fulfilling for most. When you see friends with bachelors and some masters in marketing, accounting, finance, sales, all catch up to you and some blow by you it stings. And except for accounting all have better work environments and work/life balance.
I work at va and am blessed. However, after seeing so many friends clear 150k with basic jobs they don’t excel at i think that is the gripe of most pharmacists. At the end of the day retail and staff work at a hospital is not fulfilling for most. When you see friends with bachelors and some masters in marketing, accounting, finance, sales, all catch up to you and some blow by you it stings. And except for accounting all have better work environments and work/life balance.
Sorry, but how many jobs are truly "fulfilling"? It's what you make of it, and it's only a paycheck. I choose to find fulfillment elsewhere. And yes, having been out in the real world for 30-40yrs,, many, many of my friends have exceled and blown by me with a BS degree. It shouldn't sting, it's not a competition. If you look at it like that, you make yourself miserable.
My brother-in-law, in OC, is a civil engineer. He designs safety, earthquake proof shelving for major retailers (has his own company). He clears $1 million a year, has 5 sports cars and a $3.5 Million house. Good on him.
My 31 yo son, graduated college (debt free) with a history degree. We thought maybe food services at a mall? Well, he managed an internship with a small IT company. Got a bunch of certifications, including SalesForce Admin. Now with IBM, he is making more than old dad with a Pharm.D., residency and 36 years of experience. Good on him.
Way too many examples, to keep going. As far as better work environment, and work/life balance, that's all on you.
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Lol. I mean I don’t know many pharmacy jobs that let you play golf on the clock or give you unlimited PTO. You’re right that’s my fault for not finding that
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Unlimited PTO is practically a scam that's meant to save the company money, not benefit the employee.
How many employers in general let you golf on the clock?
Not sure on the golfing. Unlimited pto is a scam if you have bad management or workplace is doing it for said reason you stated. I have several friends that take off whenever they want as long as Job is done. Probably 4-6 week long vacations and a day a week most weeks.
Having said that times have been good past few years with companies flush with cash. If we have downturn that is expected could definitely see a lot of above lax environment changing
Then why are you throwing it out there like it's a common benefit?
The majority of employers that are rolling it out are doing so because it's a good deal for them. Employees are required to work extra before/after vacation to not fall behind and the employer doesn't have to pay out any unused time. Plus it's pretty common for people to not take as much time as they would have in a use it/lose it situation.
No need to pay massive $50k+ cash outs of PTO when you lay off workers, but more importantly, wipes liability off the books and boosts shareholder equity.
