NYTimes article about firing a patient...

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Thank you for posting the article. It does raise interesting issues. May particular favorite debate, and one that I have had frequently with a close friend who is also a pediatrician, regards vaccine refusal. For me, this has never come up because I am in the military and do not have the option of dismissing a patient. However, once in private practice (if I ever am as a gen ped) I am leaning toward dismissing patient's for vaccine refusal. Now, I intend on educating parents and working with alternative imunization schedules, but I think I need to draw the line somewhere. If a parent isn't going to take my advice on the single most important medical question for his or her child, I don't think I should be treating that child.

What does everyone think?

Ed
 
...I think I need to draw the line somewhere. If a parent isn't going to take my advice on the single most important medical question for his or her child, I don't think I should be treating that child.

Ed

Agreed. But, as referenced in the article linked, you are not relieved of duty to the patient until another doctor takes it, and/or, the patient's parent refuses any future treatment from you.
 
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I don't have many patients like this, but the few I do see drive me nuts. Do you think these kinds of patients are becoming more prevelent now that the internet has so much information (right or wrong) easily available? Honestly this doc did what I'd dream of doing.

I do feel strongly enough about vaccines that I wouldn't want to deal with a family that refused them. If we disagree on this most basic concept of preventative care, we're not going to get along.

On the other hand, I don't really have it in me to do general peds, and my hat's off to those who do for mainly reasons like this.
 
I wonder whether the issue isn't that the pediatrician is not liking the parent, but rather the parent does not see the value of vaccines, and additionally she appears to have a problem with the school requirement and is possibly displacing that anger onto her kid's doctor or maybe she is making an attempt at getting empathy from him which causes him to be annoyed? I haven't had the pleasure of being the target of difficult patients'/family members' animosity yet, but as a student I've been on the receiving end of countless complaints.

With respect to having a patient in a practice whose parent refuses vaccines (and after education and an attempt at rational conversation), I would dismiss the patient on the basis that refusing the vaccine puts that patient at risk for the disease which then puts the unvaccinated population at risk. For example, we don't vaccinate babies for pertussis until 2 months I think. (Not sure how many cases there are of neonates/infants contracting pertussis...but the point I'm hoping to make here is that it is reasonable to expect patients/parents to see the value in herd immunity.)
 
i'm still trying to reconcile this as well. trying to inform parents, and compromising on vaccine schedules and what they get is sometimes a way to get a foot in the door. most often the vaccine refusals i get are parents whose first child is autisic and they then don't want their subsequent children vaccinated. or, they want their MMR delayed. while both may not make medical sense, i can appreciate their viewpoint. and when all i can say is that "there is no documented link between vaccinations and autism, and there have been multiple studies showing no increased risk of autism amongst vaccinated children as well as the fact non-vaccinated children develop autism" doesn't seem to help much. not to mention that the fact thimerisol was removed from vaccines (voluntarily) now makes those parents think that they took it out because people "were on to it". i've only had one parent ask about the atlanta case of the pre-existing mitochondrial disorder that won a claim against the vaccine injury fund-- which was surprising, but it may not have made its way through the internet boards yet.

only once did i have someone not want to vaccinate because "pediatricians are in with the vaccine makers". i told the mother that if we were truly in it for the money we'd recommend *no* vaccinations, as an LP, inpatient abx and hospitalization all make us FAR more money than the little to no money (or loss) civilian pediatricians get for routine childhood vaccinations.

the issue i run into most frequently, and is most likely to cause me to want to fire parents, is the asthmatic with smoking parents. they come in wanting allergy or pulmonology referrals when they're smoking "outside all the time" at home. "always smoking outside" is total BS-- and even after explaining how smoke particulates and other crap can trigger asthma/allergies more than "black mold" they liek to blame everything under the sun on, they roll their eyes and tell me "they've tried, nothing works, blah blah blah". those are the parents i want to fire. i document "secondary inhalation/poisoning toxic fumes" or something like that (it's a diagnosable thing in our EMR called AHLTA) and harp on it each visit.

in the grand scheme of things though, i think it's more important to try to win the overall battle with parents than fire them over littler stuff. no parents are perfect, and i try to emphasize we are a team. as long as what they want to do isn't actively harming their child, i say go for it. and even little stuff that the AAP harps on that aren't EBM, like the dreaded "nipple confusion" or "cereal in the bottle" or "gas drops" i'm not going toe-to-toe with them on- -'cause i really don't think it's a big deal. smoking, vaccinations, yes. but even those things can be worked on. and the reality is, unvaccinated kids are *probably* going to do ok-- and when they're 9 and catch chicken pox you can take some inner enjoyment of "i told you so". or, if something bad happens like HiB meningitis, you can chalk it up to having tried your best but not being able to make everyone do what you want. on the flip side, forcing a parent to vaccinate by threat of firing them (or alluding to it) and if one of those rare complications of encephalitis or something does occur, i'd feel much worse as a pediatrician.

anyway, massive tangent. but i guess my point is i would only fire the patient if the parents are no longer vested in my (our) management. as long as they're listening to something i'm telling them, i'd stick with it. otherwise i could fire them and have a clear conscious-- because there's really nothing else to do-- except hope their kids buck the trend and turn out more rational than their parents.

--your friendly neighborhood do what you can when you can caveman
 
Now, I intend on educating parents and working with alternative imunization schedules, but I think I need to draw the line somewhere. If a parent isn't going to take my advice on the single most important medical question for his or her child, I don't think I should be treating that child.

What does everyone think?

Ed

Hmm, that's not easy. If the child does get sick and the parent decides to have the child seen because of this headache and funny rash that's getting worse by the hour - would you rather see them back or have them go to some alternative practitioner who had no problem accepting this patient into their panel, because they don't believe in vaccines themselves?
 
I am not primary care anymore, but have plenty of friends who are. I don't know any pediatrician that does not believe in vaccines. I don't know that firing a patient on those grounds will lead them to another pediatrician who will side with them- just a point.

When I did see patients, I didn't mind the parents that refused my care (vaccines, follow up, referal etc). I would tell them that in my trained opinion, this is the proper course of action and that I would not do anything different if it were my child. I think that if they understand and agree to disagree then we can continue to work together. I enjoy educated parents who ask questions far more than ones who don't.

I think the only patient that I would ask to leave is the one who I find disgruntled and mean to my staff. That I cannot stand for along with maybe a few other spots. The vaccine thing to me is no big deal, though I believe strongly in vaccinations.
 
Hmm, that's not easy. If the child does get sick and the parent decides to have the child seen because of this headache and funny rash that's getting worse by the hour - would you rather see them back or have them go to some alternative practitioner who had no problem accepting this patient into their panel, because they don't believe in vaccines themselves?

No, I don't believe that I'm going to turn away a patient that has acute meningicoccemia. I don't think any of us would turn away a sick child. I agree with the Caveman: work with the parents, form alternate schedules, educate, defer less important vaccines. But when it comes to HIB, Prevnar and some of the others, I think it's a different story. I'm sure that others have similar stories, but I have taken care of patients neurologically devastated from HIB as well as those who nearly died from pertussis. My argument to give them the boot isn't because I can't deal with them or don't want to deal with them. It's because I want to show them how important I believe this is. Frankly, it's the only tool I have available to me if my education/persuasive skills are not enough.

Ed
 
Frankly, it's the only tool I have available to me if my education/persuasive skills are not enough.

Sounds reasonable. Ideally, the threat of turning them away might force them to comply and stay after all (which probably doesn't work either). Anyway, if the child at least continues to have you as their pediatrician, you will be the one they go to when he/she gets sick. And then you can provide the right care for those vulnerable children (vulnerable out of their parents' choice). That's what I meant.

No, I don't believe that I'm going to turn away a patient that has acute meningicoccemia.
You may not, but you never know what others might do...
 
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